Author Topic: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?  (Read 25536 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #135 on: November 11, 2010, 11:47:57 PM »
First, though, show us any Orthodox member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church who uses the term "Heterodox" in any form or fashion to refer to our Church.
Show me anyone in our Church who refers to our entire Church as "the Vatican."
http://www.vatican.va/index.htm
http://www.vatican.va/index.htm
That's the website for Vatican City, not the Roman Catholic Church. You've still not made your point.
http://www.vatican.va/index.htm
Maybe your computer is broken. When I go to that address there is the emblem of your supreme pontiff, an image of St. Peter's Basilica (the metochion of Constantinople), "Holy See" written in Chinese, French, German, Italian, English, Latin, Spanish and Portuguese. Do a search on that address you have the label "Official Web Site of the Holy See, Vatican Official Web Site."

If you press on the English "The Holy See" you go to
http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
Where there is a picture of the sovereign of the Vatican city-state labelled "Benedict XVI". In a circle counter clockwise "Vatican Secret Archives" (!), "Vatican Library," "Vatican Museums," "Vatican Publishing House," "Info," "Peter's Pence," "News Photos," "WYD," "S.C.D.," "Liturgical Year," "Saints Blessed," and "Site Map." Down the right side is pictures "Santiago de Compastela: Barcelo 2010" (Relevant Radio tells me that your pope is visiting/visited there), "Abuse of Minors-the Church's Response," "Basilica of Saint Peter Virtual Tour" (it is as I remember when I was there), "Archivo Storico de Propaganda Fide" (i.e. the Inquisition), "Latest Updates." "Papal Basilicas and Chapels" is on the other side, with a picture of what seems to be where your pope comes out after they say "habemus papam." Wiithin the circle is a picture of the statue of St. Peter on St. Peter's square with 'Papal Archive' under it, then "the Roman Curia" under an ancient carved Chi-Rho, "Liturgical Celebrations" under a gilded bound Gospel, "Other Offices" under a picture of St. Peter's dome, then News Services and Resource Library. Press on that
http://www.vatican.va/archive/index.htm
and you get a choice of "The Bible" ("the New American Bible," done, as its introduction relates, under the auspices of the Vatican), the "Catechism of the Catholic Church," the "Code of Canon Law" (yours), "II Vatican Council" (your last one), "Books" and "Jubilee 2000."

Yep, you're all acounted for there.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #136 on: November 12, 2010, 12:18:48 AM »

I have an ex-wife (her father confessor stating it was odd she filed, as I had all the grounds, including adultery. Cardinal Umberto's bull) who, despite what the dissolution decree says, continues to use my name, although she remarried. Besides her arrest for child endangerment and other actions which have drawn social approbation, there is the problem of her (now) second ex husband (who has his own arrest and conviction record, next to hers) who, because she continues to use my name, new officers who answer the call (I often have to employ the police to see my children etc.) confuse with me: fortunately usually one of the older officers is there to straighten things out.

As my sons say "you're divorced. Why does she still use your name?" Needless to say, I'd rather she drop it. I'm thinking of suing for defamation, to be rid of the association.

Now as to civility, you make a number of assumptions which seem to be based on how the hoi polloi see/do things in the US. That's not the same story elsewhere, particularly where the Orthodox Churches are.

You seem to be driven by a number of personal issues in your assessments of Church doctrine.  It is something you hold in common with Father Ambrose, the difference being that you periodically talk about your triggers and Father Ambrose simply reacts to his.

I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with personal experience but it certainly adds something of an extra bit of vehemence to your discussions.

It is telling that there is much to much information here that is not necessary to the point.  The story, as far as you've told it here and in other threads, makes me think that emotions do, on occasion, impair your judgment and insight and lead you into behaviors that are objectively questionable with respect to the issues of vice and virtue.
So we have the power to read hearts over the net, do we? LOL. Get that with the psych decree?

The documentation I provide for my "assessements of Church doctrine" aren't written by me, and hence aren't "driven by a number of [my] personal issues." Fr. Ambrose's "personal issues" do not drive the Russian Orthodox Church, who documents he simply obeys and quotes as representating the authoritative voice of the Orthodox Church, as opposed to those "more conservative Orthodox priests" you hob knob with. That they do not accord with your dreams for our Church is neither our problem nor responsibility.

As to the ex-wife's clinging to my name like a barnacle, well, it reminded me of others insisting on using a name they did not remain true to, defaming it for the true owner.

As to vice and virtue, because I don't take my cues from the Vatican (with whom I do agree on a lot of matters in this area, but often not for the same reason), is not indicative of anyting more than I do not accept Vatican I. But we already knew that, didn't you?

Btw, did I miss your answer?
something you throw away by working so hard to try to impose your Lutheran biases against the Catholic Church.

What Lutheran biases?

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #137 on: November 12, 2010, 12:21:34 AM »
I only grant you the title Catholic as a charity, brother Catholic, not as a necessity.
Which you really should not do because ialmisry is not (nor I doubt will ever be) Catholic.

That's not real.  Our Church recognizes all canonical Orthodox jurisdictions as Orthodox Catholic jurisdictions. 

This kind of disagreeable discussion over names is really very fruitless.  One needs to be careful not to become the very thing that one abhors.

Only in Christ is true charity possible.  Some may well bear the name Catholic and have very little to do with the charity of the Christ.

M.
I don't believe in pretending he is in full communion with our Church when he is not.
I haven't taken communion from your ecclesiastical communities since I embraced Orthodoxy.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #138 on: November 12, 2010, 12:47:14 AM »
I only grant you the title Catholic as a charity, brother Catholic, not as a necessity.
Which you really should not do because ialmisry is not (nor I doubt will ever be) Catholic.

That's not real.  Our Church recognizes all canonical Orthodox jurisdictions as Orthodox Catholic jurisdictions. 

This kind of disagreeable discussion over names is really very fruitless.  One needs to be careful not to become the very thing that one abhors.

Only in Christ is true charity possible.  Some may well bear the name Catholic and have very little to do with the charity of the Christ.

M.
I don't believe in pretending he is in full communion with our Church when he is not.
I haven't taken communion from your ecclesiastical communities since I embraced Orthodoxy.
Good to hear you haven't received the Most Holy Eucharist in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church since you embraced the eastern heterodoxy.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #139 on: November 12, 2010, 01:35:24 AM »
I only grant you the title Catholic as a charity, brother Catholic, not as a necessity.
Which you really should not do because ialmisry is not (nor I doubt will ever be) Catholic.

That's not real.  Our Church recognizes all canonical Orthodox jurisdictions as Orthodox Catholic jurisdictions. 

This kind of disagreeable discussion over names is really very fruitless.  One needs to be careful not to become the very thing that one abhors.

Only in Christ is true charity possible.  Some may well bear the name Catholic and have very little to do with the charity of the Christ.

M.
I don't believe in pretending he is in full communion with our Church when he is not.
I haven't taken communion from your ecclesiastical communities since I embraced Orthodoxy.
Good to hear you haven't received the Most Holy Eucharist in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church since you embraced the eastern heterodoxy.
Not from a lack of trying on your church's part to give it to me. Having embraced the Orthodoxy of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, though, I have to remain true to the Catholic name and her exclusive communion.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #140 on: November 12, 2010, 09:16:11 AM »
I only grant you the title Catholic as a charity, brother Catholic, not as a necessity.
Which you really should not do because ialmisry is not (nor I doubt will ever be) Catholic.

That's not real.  Our Church recognizes all canonical Orthodox jurisdictions as Orthodox Catholic jurisdictions. 

This kind of disagreeable discussion over names is really very fruitless.  One needs to be careful not to become the very thing that one abhors.

Only in Christ is true charity possible.  Some may well bear the name Catholic and have very little to do with the charity of the Christ.

M.
I don't believe in pretending he is in full communion with our Church when he is not.
I haven't taken communion from your ecclesiastical communities since I embraced Orthodoxy.
Good to hear you haven't received the Most Holy Eucharist in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church since you embraced the eastern heterodoxy.
Not from a lack of trying on your church's part to give it to me. Having embraced the Orthodoxy of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, though, I have to remain true to the Catholic name and her exclusive communion.

The we won't expect you when communion between Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church resumes.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #141 on: November 12, 2010, 11:48:18 AM »
I only grant you the title Catholic as a charity, brother Catholic, not as a necessity.
Which you really should not do because ialmisry is not (nor I doubt will ever be) Catholic.
That's not real.  Our Church recognizes all canonical Orthodox jurisdictions as Orthodox Catholic jurisdictions.
This kind of disagreeable discussion over names is really very fruitless.  One needs to be careful not to become the very thing that one abhors.
Only in Christ is true charity possible.  Some may well bear the name Catholic and have very little to do with the charity of the Christ.
M.
I don't believe in pretending he is in full communion with our Church when he is not.
I haven't taken communion from your ecclesiastical communities since I embraced Orthodoxy.
Good to hear you haven't received the Most Holy Eucharist in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church since you embraced the eastern heterodoxy.
Not from a lack of trying on your church's part to give it to me. Having embraced the Orthodoxy of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, though, I have to remain true to the Catholic name and her exclusive communion.

The we won't expect you when communion between Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church resumes.
Once again, since Orthodoxy is the communion of Catholic Church, there is nothing to resume.

Should the Vatican repent, and her sovereign and supreme pontiff Benedict XVI and the bishops under him be vested as Orthodox hiearchs and take their place in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, why won't I take communion from them.

All they (and the rest of you) have to do is to say I do:
Quote
The power of granting absolution to such persons, and of uniting them to the Church, properly devolveth on a Bishop. Nevertheless, that the converts to Orthodoxy may not be tempted to return to their heresy by reason of delay, it is wiser and more expedient that the Bishop should delegate his power, and grant his blessing therewith, to a Priest well versed in divine lore, and who is competent to instruct such a person in the articles of the Orthodox faith, and to correct his erroneous opinions.

Therefore, first of all, the penitent shall be examined with due caution (either by the Bishop or by the person to whom he hath delegated his authority) as to the particulars of his errors.

Then must he be convinced of them.

Thereafter, he shall be instructed in the doctrine of the Orthodox faith, and confirmed therein.

And when the appointed examination and instruction have been completed, with all precaution shall the Bishop require from the penitent the confession of all his sins, which he can recall, from his youth up.

And the Bishop shall not immediately thereafter grant him absolution ; but after the confession and exhortation, he shall go with him into the Church, and shall place him before the church doors, in the church porch.

And the Bishop, vested in his priestly stole and pall {omofidr) and mitre, and having in his left hand his pastoral staff, shall take his seat upon his throne (but 1f a Priest holding power to this end from the Bishop officiate, he shall be vested in his priestly stole and chasuble, and shall stand), at the door of the Church.

And if the convert cometh to the Orthodox Faith from the Roman-Latin Confession, the Bishop shall question him, and shall say :

Wilt thou renounce the errors and false doctrines of the Roman-Latin Confession ? And he shall reply : I will.

Then the Bishop demandeth of him, from whatever confession he may come : Dost thou desire to enter into the communion of the Orthodox-Catholic Faith? Answer. I do.

Then the Bishop, rising, signeth him with his right hand, in the form of a cross, saying :

In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

And laying his hand upon the bowed head of the convert, he shall recite the following Prayer :

The Deacon saith: Let us pray to the Lord.
The Choir. Lord, have mercy.

In thy Name, O Lord God of truth, and of thine Only-begotten Son, and of thy Holy Spirit, look upon thy servant, N., whom thou hast graciously enabled to have recourse unto thy Holy Orthodox Church, and to take refuge under the shadow of her wings. Remove far from him {her) his {her) former errors, and fill him {her) with the true faith, and hope, and love which are in thee. Enable him {her) to walk in all thy commandments, and to fulfil those things which are well-pleasing unto thee; for if a man do these things, he shall also find life in them. Inscribe him {her) in thy Book of Life, and unite him {her) to the flock of thine inheritance: and may thy Name be glorified in him {her), together with that of thy beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and of thy Life-giving Spirit. Let thine eyes ever look upon him {her) with mercy, and let thine ears alway receive the voice of his {her) supplication. Make him {her) to rejoice in the work of his {her) hands, and in all his {her) generation, that he {she") may render praise unto thee, may sing, worship and glorify thy great and exalted Name, and magnify thee alway, all the days of his (her) life.

Exclamation. For all the Powers of heaven sing praises unto thee, and thine is the glory, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now, and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

After the Prayer, the Bishop {or Priest) shall say to the convert:

Wherefore renounce now, with all thy heart, thine errors, and false doctrines, and mistakes of judgment, and confess the Orthodox-Catholic Faith.

And the Bishop questioneth the convert from the Roman-Latin Confession.

Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession of the Holy Spirit, the declaration of our Saviour Christ himself: " who proceedeth from the Father " : doth not suffice ; and that the addition, of man's invention : " and from the Son " : is required ?

Answer. I do.

Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that it doth not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church ; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, that is to say, of the whole Church ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual power, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince: And that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor: And that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the (Ecumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils ?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Dost thou renounce all the other doctrines of the Western Confession, both old and new, which are contrary to the Word of God, and to the true tradition of the Church, and to the decrees of the seven CEcumenical Councils?

Answer. I do.

Bishop. Hast thou renounced all ancient and modern heresies and false doctrines which are contrary to the teachings of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Eastern Church ?

Answer. I have.

Bishop. Dost thou desire to be united unto the Holy OrthodoxCatholic Eastern Church ?

Answer. I desire it with all my heart.

Bishop. Dost thou believe in one God, who is adored in the holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit : and dost thou worship him as thy King and thy God ?

Answer. I believe in one God who is glorified and adored in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and I worship him as my King and my God.

Then he maketh one lowly reverence, kneeling and bowing his head to the earth, and reciteth the Creed.

I believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, And of all things visible and invisible:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, Begotten of his Father before all worlds ; Light of Light, Very God of very God, Begotten, not made ; Being of one Essence with the Father; By whom all things were made; Who, for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, And was made man. And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. And the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead ; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets. In one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the Resurrection of the dead, And the Life of the world to come. Amen.

Bishop. Blessed is God, who enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world.

Bishop. Dost thou believe and confess that power hath been given by our Saviour Christ unto the Orthodox-Catholic Church to bind and to loose : and that whatsoever, by virtue of that power, is bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven ?

Answer. I believe and confess it.

Bishop. Dost thou believe and confess that the Foundation, Head, and Great High Priest and Chief Shepherd of the Holy OrthodoxCatholic Church is our Lord Jesus Christ; and that Bishops, Pastors and Teachers are appointed by him to rule the Church ; and that the Guide and Pilot of that Church is the Holy Spirit ?

Answer. I believe and confess that this Church is the Bride of Christ, and that therein is true salvation, which was in the Ark of Noah at the Flood.

Bishop. Dost thou promise true obedience, unto thy life's end, in guidance which is salutary unto the soul, to the Most Holy Governing Synod of All the Russias; to the Most Holy Patriarch, the Equal-of-the-Apostles {or to the Ecclesiastical Authorities of the Autocephalous Provincial Church); and to the Bishop of this Diocese, as the true Pastors appointed by the Holy Spirit; and to the Priests ordained by them ?

Answer. I promise it, with heart unfeigned.

Then the Bishop giveth him the end of his pall {omophorion) {if a Priest officiate, he giveth him the end of his priestly stole) in his right hand, saying;

Enter thou into the Orthodox Church ; and cast away all the errors and false doctrines wherein thou hast dwelt: and honour the Lord God, the Father Almighty, and his Only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, one true and living God, the holy Trinity, one in Essence and indivisible.

And having thus spoken, he leadeth the convert into the Church, holding the end of the pall {or of the priestly stole), and placeth him in front of the tribune, where, upon a table, is laid the book of the Holy Gospels ; and when he. hath taken his place, the convert immediately looseth the end of the pall from his hand. And as they enter the Church, the Reader shall read:

Psalm Lxvii.

God be merciful unto us, and bless us, and show us the light of his countenance, and be merciful unto us; that thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations. Let the people praise thee, O God; yea, let all the people praise thee. O let the nations rejoice and be glad ; for thou shalt judge the folk righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Let the people praise thee, O God ; yea, let all the people praise thee. Then shall the earth bring forth her increase; and God, even our own God, shall give us his blessing. God shall bless us; and all the ends of the world shall fear him.

And when the Psalm is finished, the Bishop commandeth the convert to kneel down before the Holy Gospels.

A nd when he hath done this, the Bishop reciteth the following Verses :

Send thy Holy Spirit, and they shall be created; and renew the face of the earth.

Turn again, O Lord, how long ? And be entreated for thy servant. The crooked places shall be made straight, and the rough ways plain. O Lord my God, save thy servant, who putteth his trust in thee. Be thou unto him, O Lord, a pillar of strength against the face of the enemy.

Let the enemy in nowise prevail against him, and let not the son of iniquity go about to offend him.

Hear my prayer, O Lord, and let the voice of my cry come unto thee.

Then immediately the Deacon shall say ;

Let us pray to the Lord.
Choir. Lord, have mercy.


And the Bishop, with all devoutness, shall recite the following Prayer:

O Lord God Almighty, who alone art holy, and restest in the Saints ; who, because of thy great and incalculable love toward mankind, dost alwayoffer unto them that have sinned divers manners of repentance,and dost show unto them that have wandered from the truth the right path unto knowledge of thee, the only true God, who art glorified and adored in the Trinity, that not one of them should perish, but that all may be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth: We thank thee, we glorify thee, and we magnify thee, for that thou hast now shed down into the heart of this, thy reason-endowed creature, N., the li*ht which is unto the knowledge of thy truth; and hast graciously enabled him {her) to have recourse unto thy Holy Apostolic Orthodox-Catholic Church. Illumine his {her) heart, O Lord, we humbly beseech thee, with the perfect light of the grace of thy Holy Spirit unto the enlightening of his {her) mind in the truth of thy Holy Gospel. Grant that he {she) may unfeignedly, irrevocably and without hypocrisy unite himself {herself) unto thy Holy Catholic Church, and truly accept and confess the Orthodox-Catholic faith. Number him {her) with thy chosen flock, and unite him {her) to the body of thy Holy Church. Make him {her) a vessel of honour, and the temple of thy Holy Spirit; that, being ever nourished and guided by the Same, he {she) may keep thy saving commandments; and that doing thy gracious, acceptable and perfect will, he {she) may be counted worthy to receive thy heavenly good things, together with all those who are well-pleasing in thy sight. For thou art the God of mercy and compassion and love toward mankind, and wiliest that all men should be saved ; and unto thee do we ascribe glory, to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now, and ever, and unto ages of ages. Choir. Amen.

And after the Prayer, the Bishop commandeth him to stand, saying :

Rise, and stand aright: stand with fear.

And he, rising, saith :

This true faith of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church, which I now voluntarily confess and unfeignedly hold, I will firmly maintain and confess whole and in its fulness and integrity, until my last breath, God being my helper; and will teach it and proclaim it, so far as in me lieth ; and will strive to fulfil its obligations cheerfully and with joy, preserving my heart in purity and virtue. And in confirmation of this, my true and sincere profession of faith, I now kiss the word of Christ my Saviour. Amen.

Then the Bishop giveth him the Holy Gospels and the cross to kiss. And after he hath kissed them, he saith :

Blessed is God, who willeth that all men should be saved, and should come unto the knowledge of the truth: Blessed is he forevermore. Choir. Amen.

Then he saith to the convert :

Bow thy knees before the Lord God, whom thou hast confessed, and receive remission of thy sins.

And the convert kneeleth down and boweth his head, having his eyes cast down.

Then the Bishop {or he who hath received this power from him), pronounceth the absolution thus : {The form of absolving such a convert from Excommunication, and from his sins, and of joining him unto the Holy Catholic Church}

Our Lord and God Jesus Christ committed unto his Apostles the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and bestowed upon them the full power through his grace, both to bind and to loose a man from his sins upon earth : May the same, through his unspeakable mercy, pardon and absolve thee. And I, by his almighty power, given unto me, an unworthy Bishop {or Priest), through his holy Apostles and their successors, do pardon and absolve thee, my child (N.), from all thy sins: and do unite thee unto the assembly of the faithful, and unto the body of Christ's Church : and do communicate thee with the Divine Sacraments of the Church: In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Then the Bishop saith to him :

Rise, brother {sister), and as a faithful servant of Jesus Christ pray thou unto him with us, that he will vouchsafe unto thee, through anointment with the holy Chrism, to receive the grace of the Holy Spirit.

And rising, the convert standeth with all emotion.
http://books.google.com/books?id=hVIXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA454&lpg=PA454&dq=Hapgood+reception+converts+bishop&source=bl&ots=LHgODrkea9&sig=D0I5OkyrNk3ptjTehB8ikyAui58&hl=en&ei=HFrdTNi9JNKonQfA7ICzDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
The doors of repentance are always open, and the Father ever waiting with open arms:
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 11:51:57 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #142 on: November 12, 2010, 12:10:40 PM »

Once again, since Orthodoxy is the communion of Catholic Church, there is nothing to resume.


There is the resumption of communion between Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church which is being discussed between Catholic hiearachs and canonical Orthodoxy.  

It seems to be taking precedence over all other bi-lateral discussions.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 12:11:17 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #143 on: November 12, 2010, 01:07:55 PM »

Once again, since Orthodoxy is the communion of Catholic Church, there is nothing to resume.


There is the resumption of communion between Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church which is being discussed between Catholic hiearachs and canonical Orthodoxy.  

It seems to be taking precedence over all other bi-lateral discussions.
Not that that would say much, but it is also not true: the talks between the EO and OO on formal, official, canonical resumption of communion of the Catholic Church, unlike those talks with the Vatican (which can't even produce public statements, let alone signed ones) have already born fruit.  The talks you refer to are withering on the vine, and by their fruits ye shall know them.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline theistgal

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #144 on: November 12, 2010, 01:26:33 PM »
Just out of curiosity, ialmistry, when you read that news story a few weeks ago about the Muslim attack on a Syriac Catholic church in Baghdad, did you immediately complain to all the news organizations (including not to mention biro over at the "Christian News" subforum here at OC.net - http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30936.0.html) that they should have described it as a "Vatican" church?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 01:30:32 PM by theistgal »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #145 on: November 12, 2010, 02:15:10 PM »
Just out of curiosity, ialmistry, when you read that news story a few weeks ago about the Muslim attack on a Syriac Catholic church in Baghdad, did you immediately complain to all the news organizations (including not to mention biro over at the "Christian News" subforum here at OC.net - http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30936.0.html) that they should have described it as a "Vatican" church?
Were it a story of about the Western Ukraine, with Orthodox attacking (and then there would be the question of "attack") one of the churches the Vatican is in possession of, I might be so inclined, but Muslim attacks on churchs of any sort in the Islamic world, no.  The Muslims make no distinction: after Pope Benedict's correct citation of the Emperor Manuel on Muhammad, several Orthodox Churches were attacked.

To anticipate the next question-not necessarily yourself, but others, as they have done so already-why should we make the distinction? Experience. The Turk enthroned an Imam in Agia Sophia, not a prostitute as did the Crusaders, and Prince St. Stefan the Great, called "Champion of the Christian Faith" by the Vatican, complained of facing the Muslims in battle while being stabbed in the back by the Champions of the Vatican. We have learned the example of Grand Prince St. Alexander Nevsky that resisting an enemy without is easier than containing an enemy within bent on your destruction.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline theistgal

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #146 on: November 12, 2010, 02:50:26 PM »
Just out of curiosity, ialmistry, when you read that news story a few weeks ago about the Muslim attack on a Syriac Catholic church in Baghdad, did you immediately complain to all the news organizations (including not to mention biro over at the "Christian News" subforum here at OC.net - http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30936.0.html) that they should have described it as a "Vatican" church?
Were it a story of about the Western Ukraine, with Orthodox attacking (and then there would be the question of "attack") one of the churches the Vatican is in possession of, I might be so inclined, but Muslim attacks on churchs of any sort in the Islamic world, no.  The Muslims make no distinction: after Pope Benedict's correct citation of the Emperor Manuel on Muhammad, several Orthodox Churches were attacked.

To anticipate the next question-not necessarily yourself, but others, as they have done so already-why should we make the distinction? Experience. The Turk enthroned an Imam in Agia Sophia, not a prostitute as did the Crusaders, and Prince St. Stefan the Great, called "Champion of the Christian Faith" by the Vatican, complained of facing the Muslims in battle while being stabbed in the back by the Champions of the Vatican. We have learned the example of Grand Prince St. Alexander Nevsky that resisting an enemy without is easier than containing an enemy within bent on your destruction.

Whatever.  I don't know any Catholics (excuse me, Vaticanists!) offhand, who are bent on destroying the Orthodox Church today.

I'll grant you that was the case in the not-distant-enough past, but let's face it, we Christians have a pretty sorry history, over the last 2,000+ years, of trying to destroy each other.

(The Orthodox aren't exempt either:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins )
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 02:56:21 PM by theistgal »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #147 on: November 12, 2010, 03:52:51 PM »
Just out of curiosity, ialmistry, when you read that news story a few weeks ago about the Muslim attack on a Syriac Catholic church in Baghdad, did you immediately complain to all the news organizations (including not to mention biro over at the "Christian News" subforum here at OC.net - http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30936.0.html) that they should have described it as a "Vatican" church?
Were it a story of about the Western Ukraine, with Orthodox attacking (and then there would be the question of "attack") one of the churches the Vatican is in possession of, I might be so inclined, but Muslim attacks on churchs of any sort in the Islamic world, no.  The Muslims make no distinction: after Pope Benedict's correct citation of the Emperor Manuel on Muhammad, several Orthodox Churches were attacked.

To anticipate the next question-not necessarily yourself, but others, as they have done so already-why should we make the distinction? Experience. The Turk enthroned an Imam in Agia Sophia, not a prostitute as did the Crusaders, and Prince St. Stefan the Great, called "Champion of the Christian Faith" by the Vatican, complained of facing the Muslims in battle while being stabbed in the back by the Champions of the Vatican. We have learned the example of Grand Prince St. Alexander Nevsky that resisting an enemy without is easier than containing an enemy within bent on your destruction.

Whatever.  I don't know any Catholics (excuse me, Vaticanists!) offhand, who are bent on destroying the Orthodox Church today.

The seizure of Orthodox Churches in Ukraine, Czechoslovakia (particalarly egregious, as the communist let any who wanted to go under the Vatican do so in the 60's) and the policies in Poland, the abandonment of the St. George Cathedral in Lviv (after seizing it, again) the mother church of the UCCC to stab Kiev in the heart with a new (and due to the minority of commnunicants there as opposed to the larger numbers out east, not needed) cathedral, the covetting of the title of "Patriarch of Kiev-Halych and All Ukraine" by the flock of the Ukrainian cardinal (while the primate of the Copts and the primate of the Melkites who have submitted to the Vatican are forbidden to dare to use the traditional Orthodox title of Pope which Pope Shenoudah and Pope Theodore have), Pope John Paul II remarks that if the Romanians were real Romans "they would be Roman Catholic," the publication and distribution of the CCC in Romania in Romanian shortly after its pumulgation and years before its appearance in English and other languages with large numbers (as opposed to the tiny Romanian speaking number in Romania) of followers of the Vatican-in fact near (perhaps before) the Spanish and Portuguese (the largest part of the Vatican's followers) editions, the campaign against the restrictions on the Vatican's activities in Russia while giving moral (and other) support against the freedom of the Protestants to preach in Latin America, the Latin Patriarchate over the Eastern city of Jerusalem, the rush to give diplomatic recognition and support of Croatians with a blind eye to anti-Serb activities in and outside of Croatia (witness the ongoing lawsuit in the US against the Croatian Franciscans), the collaboration of the with the Muslim secessionists to raise a cathedral in Pristina Kosovo, etc. etc. etc. tell us otherwise.

Quote
I'll grant you that was the case in the not-distant-enough past, but let's face it, we Christians have a pretty sorry history, over the last 2,000+ years, of trying to destroy each other.

(The Orthodox aren't exempt either:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins )
There is a tad bit of difference between shooting an intruder, squater or treacherous guest in your own home and journeying over land and sea to break into the home of someone you disagree with, shoot him, and confiscate his home.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 03:53:53 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline theistgal

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #148 on: November 12, 2010, 08:20:16 PM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #149 on: November 12, 2010, 09:33:26 PM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
No, "I'm right-and here are the facts that support that."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #150 on: November 12, 2010, 11:34:30 PM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
No, "I'm right-and here are the facts that support that."
Your humility is astounding.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #151 on: November 13, 2010, 12:12:56 AM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
No, "I'm right-and here are the facts that support that."
Your humility is astounding.
Orthodoxy also means "right glory"
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #152 on: November 13, 2010, 12:35:34 AM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
No, "I'm right-and here are the facts that support that."
Your humility is astounding.
Orthodoxy also means "right glory"
Is the "glory" referring to glorification of God or glorification of self?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #153 on: November 13, 2010, 01:14:27 AM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
No, "I'm right-and here are the facts that support that."
Your humility is astounding.
Orthodoxy also means "right glory"
Is the "glory" referring to glorification of God or glorification of self?
God and His Church.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #154 on: November 13, 2010, 11:53:15 AM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
No, "I'm right-and here are the facts that support that."
Your humility is astounding.
Orthodoxy also means "right glory"
Is the "glory" referring to glorification of God or glorification of self?
God and His Church.
Ironic title chosen by a group in schism with Her. Almost like you have something to prove, perhaps?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 11:53:29 AM by Wyatt »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #155 on: November 13, 2010, 12:34:14 PM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
No, "I'm right-and here are the facts that support that."
Your humility is astounding.
Orthodoxy also means "right glory"
Is the "glory" referring to glorification of God or glorification of self?
God and His Church.
Ironic title chosen by a group in schism with Her.
"schism with Her." Now that's ironic.

When the Fathers put the phrase "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" into the Creed. Rome wasn't among them: Pope Damasus (who gave you your Latin mass, Greek having been the language of the Church of Rome until then) refused to accept in his diptychs Patriarch St. Meletius of Antioch, who opened the Second Ecumenical Council. When St. Meletius was called to his reward and the Council recognized his successor,St. Flavian, Rome refused to, also refusing to recognize the successor, St. Nectarius, of St. Gregory Nazianzus at Constantinople, who had taken over from St. Meletius in presiding over the Council.

But knowing that you won't believe these facts because they are from an Orthodox defender of the Catholic Church, look at the biased report of CAF, which even cannot disguise the fact that when the Fathers of the Ecumenical Council wrote the Ecumeical Creed, they had no such definition of "Catholic" as meaning "in submission to the visible head at Rome."
Quote
During the years of conflict between East and West, the Roman pontiff remained firm, defending the Catholic faith against heresies and unruly or immoral secular powers, especially the Byzantine emperor. The first conflict came when Emperor Constantius appointed an Arian heretic as patriarch. Pope Julian excommunicated the patriarch in 343, and Constantinople remained in schism until John Chrysostom assumed the patriarchate in 398.

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
http://www.catholic.com/library/Eastern_Orthodoxy.asp

The Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople I met in 381, which falls between 343 and 398. Btw, St. John Chrysostom accepted ordination from Patriarch St. Meletius, unlike Rome's sycophant St. Jerome, who was ordained by the usurper Paulinus (notice, no "St. Paulinus"), whose episcopal line soon thereafter died out:all of the four patriarchal lines the Vatican has installed in Antioch claim to succeed St. Meletius, not Paulinus.

So we keep not only the original letter of the Creed, which you do not, but the original spirit of it as well. Which you do not, redefining the confession of the Orthodox Faith into a statement of Ultramontanism.



Quote
Almost like you have something to prove, perhaps?
No.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 12:37:36 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #156 on: November 13, 2010, 05:07:22 PM »
ialmisry,

You are not going to prove anything to me by citing that Rome was not present at this or that Ecumenical Council. Didn't the Pope usually send delegates to said Councils? Either way it does not prove anything. We accept that doctrine develops and that just because the Petrine office did not exercise the authority in the first millennium Church that it did after does not prove that the office itself is illegitimate. To put it another way, I have heard it explained that the Early Church was like a seed. All the essentials were there but in an undeveloped, embryonic-like state. Throughout the years the Church has grown and developed. Does this mean the Church is not the same Church or that the truth is not the same truth? Of course not. It just means that we continue to have a deeper understanding of the truth throughout time as the Holy Spirit leads us deeper. If we were meant to be stagnant and everything was perfectly clear and understood from the beginning there would have been no point in a Pentecost. Why would we need a Spirit of Truth if the truth was already perfectly defined and clear?

Also, that picture that you like to keep posting for the sake of trolling does not prove or disprove anything about the Roman Catholic Church. Judas betrayed Christ. Does that mean the Early Church was illegitimate? As long as there are humans in the Church there will be sin within the Church. That is just the way it is. That does not mean, however, that the Church ceases to be the Church.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #157 on: November 13, 2010, 05:24:07 PM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
No, "I'm right-and here are the facts that support that."
Your humility is astounding.
Orthodoxy also means "right glory"
Is the "glory" referring to glorification of God or glorification of self?

The root, doxa (from dokein, meaning to seem, seem good), means glory or opinion, nothing more. 

You're stirring the pot with these semantic games and I suggest you walk away from the Internet for a couple of more days.   >:( 

If the Roman Catholic Church had wished to maintain a name implying good or glory, they would have done so.  Instead, they stuck with Catholic, whose root prefix is cata, which means: down, in accordance with.  The suffix, -holos, means whole

So, for example, a Roman Catholic adherent must be in accordance with the whole teachings of an infallible Roman Catholic Pope.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #158 on: November 13, 2010, 05:44:14 PM »
ialmisry,

You are not going to prove anything to me by citing that Rome was not present at this or that Ecumenical Council. Didn't the Pope usually send delegates to said Councils?
He didn't to Constantinople I.

Quote
Either way it does not prove anything. We accept that doctrine develops

It is proven that your doctrine drifts.

Quote
and that just because the Petrine office did not exercise the authority in the first millennium Church that it did after does not prove that the office itself is illegitimate.

Rome tried to assert its authority as the sole Petrine office over St. Peter's see of Antioch in the matter of his successor Patriarch St. Meletius, and the first millenium Church rejected it as illegitimate.

Quote
To put it another way, I have heard it explained that the Early Church was like a seed. All the essentials were there but in an undeveloped, embryonic-like state. Throughout the years the Church has grown and developed. Does this mean the Church is not the same Church or that the truth is not the same truth? Of course not. It just means that we continue to have a deeper understanding of the truth throughout time as the Holy Spirit leads us deeper. If we were meant to be stagnant and everything was perfectly clear and understood from the beginning there would have been no point in a Pentecost. Why would we need a Spirit of Truth if the truth was already perfectly defined and clear?
Matthew 13:24 Another parable he proposed to them, saying: The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man that sowed good seeds in his field. 25 But while men were asleep, his enemy came and oversowed cockle among the wheat and went his way. 26 And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle. 27 And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle? 28 And he said to them: An enemy hath done this. And the servants said to him: Wilt thou that we go and gather it up? 29 And he said: No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it. 30 Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.
 
Quote
Also, that picture that you like to keep posting for the sake of trolling

I wasn't trolling, just answering your quetion that I had something to prove. No, I do not.

Quote
does not prove or disprove anything about the Roman Catholic Church. Judas betrayed Christ. Does that mean the Early Church was illegitimate? As long as there are humans in the Church there will be sin within the Church. That is just the way it is. That does not mean, however, that the Church ceases to be the Church.
I'm not sure that your "peter" pushing the ecclesiastical self destruct button by confirming Vatican II is the same thing as Judas betraying Christ.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #159 on: November 13, 2010, 06:01:22 PM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
No, "I'm right-and here are the facts that support that."
Your humility is astounding.
Orthodoxy also means "right glory"
Is the "glory" referring to glorification of God or glorification of self?

The root, doxa (from dokein, meaning to seem, seem good), means glory or opinion, nothing more. 

You're stirring the pot with these semantic games and I suggest you walk away from the Internet for a couple of more days.   >:( 

If the Roman Catholic Church had wished to maintain a name implying good or glory, they would have done so.  Instead, they stuck with Catholic, whose root prefix is cata, which means: down, in accordance with.  The suffix, -holos, means whole

So, for example, a Roman Catholic adherent must be in accordance with the whole teachings of an infallible Roman Catholic Pope.

Speaking of "root"

Papal infallibility is rooted in the infallibility of the Church.  It cannot exist without the infallibility of the Church, so most of the time protestants and Orthodox who reverse that order have it mightily wrong.

But that, of course, is to be expected.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #160 on: November 13, 2010, 06:16:32 PM »
In other words, "I'm right - stop trying to confuse me with the facts!" :)
No, "I'm right-and here are the facts that support that."
Your humility is astounding.
Orthodoxy also means "right glory"
Is the "glory" referring to glorification of God or glorification of self?

The root, doxa (from dokein, meaning to seem, seem good), means glory or opinion, nothing more. 

You're stirring the pot with these semantic games and I suggest you walk away from the Internet for a couple of more days.   >:( 

If the Roman Catholic Church had wished to maintain a name implying good or glory, they would have done so.  Instead, they stuck with Catholic, whose root prefix is cata, which means: down, in accordance with.  The suffix, -holos, means whole

So, for example, a Roman Catholic adherent must be in accordance with the whole teachings of an infallible Roman Catholic Pope.

Speaking of "root"

Papal infallibility is rooted in the infallibility of the Church.
No, it's cockle to uprooted.

Quote
It cannot exist without the infallibility of the Church,
Snce it is heresy, it cannot exist with the infallibility of the Catholic Church.

Quote
so most of the time protestants and Orthodox who reverse that order have it mightily wrong.
We do not reverse the order. We stick with the three orders of the priesthood that Christ gave us, and don't add the supra-order Pastor Aeternus created.

Quote
But that, of course, is to be expected.
Can't speak for the Protestants, but of course the Orthodox are going to defend the Orthodoxy of the Catholic Church.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #161 on: November 13, 2010, 06:25:26 PM »

Can't speak for the Protestants, but of course the Orthodox are going to defend the orthodoxy of the Catholic Church.

Thanks all the same for the offer, but I think we have saints and bishops who are better qualified to do that job.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #162 on: November 13, 2010, 06:37:38 PM »

Can't speak for the Protestants, but of course the Orthodox are going to defend the orthodoxy of the Catholic Church.

Thanks all the same for the offer, but I think we have saints and bishops who are better qualified to do that job.
Indeed we do. That doesn't get me off the hook for doing my honor, priveledge and duty in my niche of the universe.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #163 on: November 13, 2010, 07:19:33 PM »

Can't speak for the Protestants, but of course the Orthodox are going to defend the orthodoxy of the Catholic Church.

Thanks all the same for the offer, but I think we have saints and bishops who are better qualified to do that job.
Indeed we do. That doesn't get me off the hook for doing my honor, priveledge and duty in my niche of the universe.

I am happy you enjoy being Orthodox

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #164 on: November 13, 2010, 10:51:20 PM »

Can't speak for the Protestants, but of course the Orthodox are going to defend the orthodoxy of the Catholic Church.

Thanks all the same for the offer, but I think we have saints and bishops who are better qualified to do that job.

Qualified or not qualified, whether Saint or Bishop, Saint Peter isues the command, and it is not just to the catechists and the theologically trained "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1 Peter 3:15)

Offline dcommini

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #165 on: November 13, 2010, 11:06:47 PM »

Can't speak for the Protestants, but of course the Orthodox are going to defend the orthodoxy of the Catholic Church.

Thanks all the same for the offer, but I think we have saints and bishops who are better qualified to do that job.

Qualified or not qualified, whether Saint or Bishop, Saint Peter isues the command, and it is not just to the catechists and the theologically trained "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1 Peter 3:15)

Well said! This is one thing that attracted me to the Orthodox Church, many lay people could defend their faith many times better than any Protestants I knew and most Catholics I knew. The Protestants would just give me "because x is in the Bible" and when I would show them that it was not they would respond, "well that is what my pastor says and I trust him because he went to school for this sort of thing." The Catholics I knew would give me a "Because the Pope says it must be so" type of answer. The Orthodox I know would give me actual references to the Fathers and referred me to books written on the subject. All around (from my own experiences) the Orthodox people seem to be able and ready to defend their faith at any given time (I do not mean any disrespect to the Roman Catholic Church and those churches affiliated with the RCC. I have some great Catholic friends with whom I would discuss many matters theological and I thank them for eventually leading me to the Orthodox Church, though they were not trying to...)
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #166 on: November 14, 2010, 05:59:58 PM »
I'm not sure that your "peter" pushing the ecclesiastical self destruct button by confirming Vatican II is the same thing as Judas betraying Christ.
More trolling. You know good and well that the heinous abuse being shown in those pictures was never called for or approved by the Second Vatican Council. You just like to spread falsehood to attack our Church.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #167 on: November 14, 2010, 06:37:10 PM »
I'm not sure that your "peter" pushing the ecclesiastical self destruct button by confirming Vatican II is the same thing as Judas betraying Christ.
More trolling. You know good and well that the heinous abuse being shown in those pictures was never called for or approved by the Second Vatican Council. You just like to spread falsehood to attack our Church.
I don't need to attack your ecclesiastical community: its members acting in the self proclaimed "spirit of Vatican II" is doing a fine job.

Vatican II is also the demonstration of de Tocqueville's maxim "The most dangerous moment for a bad government is when it begins to reform."
http://books.google.com/books?id=N50aibeL8BAC&pg=PA214&vq=%22most+critical+moment+for+bad+governments%22&source=gbs_search_r&cad=1_1#v=onepage&q=%22most%20critical%20moment%20for%20bad%20governments%22&f=false
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #168 on: November 14, 2010, 07:07:30 PM »
I don't need to attack your ecclesiastical community: its members acting in the self proclaimed "spirit of Vatican II" is doing a fine job.
Individuals acting out in what they wrongly perceive to be the "spirit of Vatican II" has nothing to do with the credibility of the Church as a whole. If that was the case then Judas would have been proof that the Church was corrupt, yet we never judge the Church as a whole by the actions of individuals within the Church. Individuals have always sinned.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 07:07:46 PM by Wyatt »

Offline Father H

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #169 on: November 14, 2010, 11:15:45 PM »
Look,
The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is and always shall be the Holy Orthodox Church of God.   She is the Holy Catholic Church.  She is the Holy Apostolic Church.  She is the Church of God in its fullness, lacking nothing.   When we speak of the Catholic Church in its wholeness, it is that which commently is referred to as the Orthodox Church in basic commonly used terms.  This is true whether others call themselves catholic or apostolic or whatever.  Glory to God in all things.     

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #170 on: November 14, 2010, 11:20:39 PM »
Look,
The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is and always shall be the Holy Orthodox Church of God.   She is the Holy Catholic Church.  She is the Holy Apostolic Church.  She is the Church of God in its fullness, lacking nothing.   When we speak of the Catholic Church in its wholeness, it is that which commently is referred to as the Orthodox Church in basic commonly used terms.  This is true whether others call themselves catholic or apostolic or whatever.  Glory to God in all things.     

Well if you insist on that definition then I belong to the Catholic Church...the only one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church...except she is good enough to include the Orthodox...and there are days when I cannot figure out why.

Blessed be God!

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #171 on: November 15, 2010, 01:46:20 AM »
I don't need to attack your ecclesiastical community: its members acting in the self proclaimed "spirit of Vatican II" is doing a fine job.
Individuals acting out in what they wrongly perceive to be the "spirit of Vatican II" has nothing to do with the credibility of the Church as a whole. If that was the case then Judas would have been proof that the Church was corrupt, yet we never judge the Church as a whole by the actions of individuals within the Church. Individuals have always sinned.

My Bible says St. Peter led the way to replacing Judas. What does yours say?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #172 on: November 15, 2010, 01:49:06 AM »
Look,
The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is and always shall be the Holy Orthodox Church of God.   She is the Holy Catholic Church.  She is the Holy Apostolic Church.  She is the Church of God in its fullness, lacking nothing.   When we speak of the Catholic Church in its wholeness, it is that which commently is referred to as the Orthodox Church in basic commonly used terms.  This is true whether others call themselves catholic or apostolic or whatever.  Glory to God in all things.     

Well if you insist on that definition then I belong to the Catholic Church
not if you belied and deny that definition.
Quote
..the only one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church...except she is good enough to include the Orthodox
She includes only the Orthodox, visibly at least.

Quote
...and there are days when I cannot figure out why.
Orthodoxy=Catholic Church.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #173 on: November 15, 2010, 08:44:15 AM »
I belong to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #174 on: November 15, 2010, 10:27:19 AM »
I belong to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

No, because:

there is no *ecclesiastical* grace in your sacraments;

there is no ecclesiastical grace in your sacraments because your ecclesiology is not apostolic, not holy, not catholic and not one;

It's not apostolic because Peter's leadership was not: inheritable automatically, attached to a specific locus or equal to lordship over the whole church.

It's not cata holic because it's cata papic. That's pretty straightforward. To have the ultimate source of authority as "the whole", "the pope" or "the Bible" is a contradiction. You can only choose one of those. Infallibility belongs to the Holy Spirit. He is the Spirit of Truth. He *may* manifest infallibly through the primate. But He may manifest infallibly through the Synod, through a single monk against the clergy, through the laity and even through non-Christians with a view to bring the Church back on track (see invasions bringing common sense back to Christian lands). It's the Holy Spirit Who is steering this boat and He can use every tool. It's not the Pope, and it's not the Bible.

It's not holy because for all the good that there is in it - and it's a lot, everything is worthless if you don't pledge submission to a human leader. In the end is but the first attempt in global governance, just a very big political institution, and that is why Pope Saint Gregory said that whoever wore the title the current popes wear, would be the precursors of the Anti-Christ: a global leader who governs falsely in the name of God. Not that they are the Anti-Christ, but as the office exists today, it's a clear prefiguration.

It's not one because it doesn't simply change outter aspects of faith to adapt its expression along time, it creates new dogmas causing rupture with the Truth. The simple fact that RCs see the unity of the Church more in the institution than in the faith shows it's not about what you belive, but who you secularly obey to - the great thing about its "managerial" thing is that it does not push obedience so much for lay people, but plays more strongly on punishing disobedience. Current disarray in organization and consequen lack of control is due to post-modern society and just a historical accident, seen as alien to the spirit of RC which is being worked to be recovered. Because whatever the Pope says will always be considered correct if "ex cathedra", two consequences arise from that: the meaning of the past can be continually reinvented according to the wishes of the present. If a pope says something that contradicts what has been said before, what has been said before will be reinterpreted so to make the latest statement make sense. The Immaculate Conception is a case in point. The second consequence is that because "ex cathedra" is a hyper-fluid concept, there is a second advantage to the definition that even what has been uttered ex cathedra in the past can, ex cathedra, be said to not have been ex cathedra at all, because the concept can be defined in another way. In the end, it's the "will to power" of the current pope that can define everything, even the meaning of the past. RC is one in the sense, and only in this sense, that the office of the pope is one, never that faith is one. Faith can and have been redefined many times, each time with being said that it had always been like that. As RCs like to say: "RC words are her own, and mean what she wants them to mean".
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 10:35:47 AM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #175 on: November 15, 2010, 10:37:46 AM »
I belong to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

No, because:

there is no *ecclesiastical* grace in your sacraments;

there is no ecclesiastical grace in your sacraments because your ecclesiology is not apostolic, not holy, not catholic and not one;

It's not apostolic because Peter's leadership was not: inheritable automatically, attached to a specific locus or equal to lordship over the whole church.

It's not cata holic because it's cata papic. That's pretty straightforward. To have the ultimate source of authority as "the whole", "the pope" or "the Bible" is a contradiction. You can only choose one of those. Infallibility belongs to the Holy Spirit. He is the Spirit of Truth. He *may* manifest infallibly through the primate. But He may manifest infallibly through the Synod, through a single monk against the clergy, through the laity and even through non-Christians with a view to bring the Church back on track (see invasions bringing common sense back to Christian lands). It's the Holy Spirit Who is steering this boat and He can use every tool. It's not the Pope, and it's not the Bible.

It's not holy because for all the good that there is in it - and it's a lot, everything is worthless if you don't pledge submission to a human leader. In the end is but the first attempt in global governance, just a very big political institution, and that is why Pope Saint Gregory said that whoever wore the title the current popes wear, would be the precursors of the Anti-Christ: a global leader who governs falsely in the name of God. Not that they are the Anti-Christ, but as the office exists today, it's a clear prefiguration.

It's not one because it doesn't simply change outter aspects of faith to adapt its expression along time, it creates new dogmas causing rupture with the Truth. The simple fact that RCs see the unity of the Church more in the institution than in the faith shows it's not about what you belive, but who you secularly obey to - the great thing about its "managerial" thing is that it does not push obedience so much for lay people, but plays more strongly on punishing disobedience. Current disarray in organization and consequen lack of contro is due to post-modern society and just a historical accident, seen as alien to the spirit of RC which is being worked to be recovered. Because whatever the Pope says will always be considered correct if "ex cathedra" two consequences arise from that: the meaning of the past can be continually reinvented according to the wishes of the present. If a pope says something that contradicts what has been said before, what has been said before will be reinterpreted so to make the latest statement make sense. The Immaculate Conception is a case in point. The second consequence is that because "ex cathedra" is a hyper-fluid concept, there is a second advantage to the definition that even what has been uttered ex cathedra in the past can, ex cathedra, be said to not have been ex cathedra at all, because the concept can be defined in another way. In the end, it's the "will to power" of the current pope that can define everything, even the meaning of the past. RC is one in the sense, and only in this sense, that the office of the pope is one, never that faith is one. Faith can and have been redefined many times, each time with being said that it had always been like that. As RCs like to say: "RC words are her own, and mean what she wants them to mean".

LOL. Fabio, that is just you Lutheranism showing.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31149.msg493373.html#msg493373
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #176 on: November 15, 2010, 11:12:18 AM »
I repeat I belong to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #177 on: November 15, 2010, 11:17:03 AM »
I repeat I belong to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantra
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #178 on: November 15, 2010, 11:36:19 AM »
I repeat I belong to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantra

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, A Sinner

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
« Reply #179 on: November 15, 2010, 11:46:18 AM »
I repeat I belong to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantra

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, A Sinner

That's a request which, if from the heart, will eventually bring you back to the fullness of the Catholic church. The previous sentence, on the other hand, is just wishful thinking. Too much time, too much emotion, too much effort invested in that. The traveler has overcome so many challenges and obstacles to get to a certain point that the thought that there is just one step more, as small as it may be, sounds as having to carry a mountain on his back.

But the True Fountain is exactly one step ahead.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 11:46:40 AM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.