The Trisagion

[ialmisry]

No, it express the difference that the EO interpret the Trisagion as Trinitarian and so don't insert the verses, and the OO interpret it as Christological and insert them.

That's pretty much just what I said.

The difference you brought up has nothing to do with a non-existent difference between the EO and OO on Theopaschitism.

[holdencaulfield]

The difference you brought up has nothing to do with a non-existent difference between the EO and OO on Theopaschitism.

There is a difference, we can talk about it if you like.

[Salpy]

The discussion on Theopaschitism was moved to the private forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18848.0.html

[Aindriú]

Did some prayers and this thread has been brought back to life. 



I still don't understand the Oriental Orthodox (miaphysite) position. While there is much I like about the way you express the natures of Christ in his person, the crucifixion doesn't fit (in as much as I understand you). Christ (one person, two nature) died on the cross, what died? The answer I've seen is Jesus died, but that sounds like avoiding the question.

If the person of Jesus Christ died in totality, then his human and diving natures both died?

I'm not advocating Nestorianism (or any form of dyophysitism), because I do believe in one person of Jesus Christ made of two inseparable nature, one fully divine, one fully human. But if the Jesus died, something died, right?

Please help me out here.

[Salpy]

What was born?  Was it only a human nature that was born?  Divinity can't be born, anymore than it can die.  

We believe that the Incarnate Word of God was born of the Virgin Mary, which is why we call her Mother of God.  Likewise we also believe that the Incarnate Word of God died on the cross.  Your own Fifth Council also states that One of the Trinity suffered on the Cross, even though divinity can't suffer.  It's just not proper to speak of a nature being born or suffering.  We have to speak of the Person:  The Incarnate Word of God.  

[Fr.Kyrillos]

Did Jesus Christ as a person experience death? If you answer yes, then even as a Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian you confess that Jesus Christ is a Divine Person not a Human Person. He is a Divine Person who united to His Person a Human Nature; i.e. the Hypostatic Union.

So, to say that His Humanity died is to deny that HE experienced death.  Of course, we do not say that the Divine Nature is capable of death, but rather God died "in the Flesh." To deny that the Person of Christ experienced death, is to deny the salvific power of His sacrifice and blood. If only His Humanity died, then what makes His death different than another human being offering himself on behalf of others?

[Aindriú]

Did Jesus Christ as a person experience death? If you answer yes, then even as a Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian you confess that Jesus Christ is a Divine Person not a Human Person. He is a Divine Person who united to His Person a Human Nature; i.e. the Hypostatic Union.

So, to say that His Humanity died is to deny that HE experienced death.  Of course, we do not say that the Divine Nature is capable of death, but rather God died "in the Flesh." To deny that the Person of Christ experienced death, is to deny the salvific power of His sacrifice and blood. If only His Humanity died, then what makes His death different than another human being offering himself on behalf of others?

Thank you, Father. That is extremely helpful.

[Fr.Kyrillos]

Did Jesus Christ as a person experience death? If you answer yes, then even as a Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian you confess that Jesus Christ is a Divine Person not a Human Person. He is a Divine Person who united to His Person a Human Nature; i.e. the Hypostatic Union.

So, to say that His Humanity died is to deny that HE experienced death.  Of course, we do not say that the Divine Nature is capable of death, but rather God died "in the Flesh." To deny that the Person of Christ experienced death, is to deny the salvific power of His sacrifice and blood. If only His Humanity died, then what makes His death different than another human being offering himself on behalf of others?

Thank you, Father. That is extremely helpful.

God bless you.

[deusveritasest]

I still don't understand the Oriental Orthodox (miaphysite) position.

That the Logos died in and because of His flesh.

Christ (one person, two nature) died on the cross, what died? The answer I've seen is Jesus died, but that sounds like avoiding the question.

No, it's not. If anything, you have an improper understanding of what dies. Anhypostatic elements do not die. Simple "whats" do not die. Hypostases die. Death is an experience of a hypostasis. The Incarnate Logos died.

If the person of Jesus Christ died in totality, then his human and diving natures both died?

You are introducing too much division. It would be improper even to say that the flesh of Christ died. Christ died in the flesh is all you can say. So there is no point trying to talk about His divinity dying either.

But if the Jesus died, something died, right?

"The Jesus"? "Something died"? You are speaking too abstractly of the Lord Christ. It was a someone who died.

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