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Author Topic: what's the protocol for heterodox Churches?  (Read 1858 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: October 19, 2010, 12:33:59 AM »

My little sister came home and there was a DRASTIC change in her! she went to a youth group with her friend.  she was quoting Bible verses and everything!  she invited me to her bible study this Wednesday.  it's a non-denominational Church. I'm not sure what and what not to do.

she said I shouldn't being an Orthodox Bible, but I explained that we use the same books, and books "churches" have removed over the centuries.  I will bring my Orthodox Study Bible, which has become my friend when I am lonely and sad! Wink

I know that they start prayers off the top of their heads.  I still, though, like to make the sign of the cross. I know she won't like this, because it draws attention to me (us).  I am used to it, though.

I am determined to see what My sister loves so (and perhapse make her want to visit MY Church), yet NOT deny my Orthodoxy.

what are some things I can and can't do at this non-denominational Church?  what's the protocol?
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2010, 12:36:51 AM »

I would recommend not praying with them, for one thing.
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2010, 12:40:56 AM »

You will probably disagree with a lot of their interpretations on certain important aspects of scripture and get into a big debate. But if that sort of bible study encourages that sort of thing (Never been to bible study at all, Orthodox or protestant) go ahead I would say. As long as one does not get emotional and admits they are ignorant in certain areas a debate can be healthy. This is currently why I stay away from debates for the moment anyway.

As for things you can't do, well I wouldn't think there is anything you couldn't talk about. But if it gets onto the nature of the church and what it is, will probably rile the discussion. Just be cautious in certain topics.

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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2010, 06:01:09 AM »

As long as one does not get emotional...

You certainly haven't read this forum long enough if you still think that's possible. Grin
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2010, 06:10:48 AM »

Oh I've seen how heated things get here. Lol
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2010, 06:44:43 AM »

How odd, she wants you to go with her, she knows you're Orthodox, it's supposedly "non-denominational" but she wants you to not make the sign of the cross, use the Bible you accept, or talk about what you believe.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
oh, and "This above all: to thine ownself be true"
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2010, 06:49:03 AM »

I would recommend not praying with them, for one thing.
This is very true. While they are praying, you can be silently repeating the Jesus Prayer or others that sustain you. Don't behave as though you are joining them. It's probably not a good idea to participate actively in the Bible study. You can tell your sister and others that you are there only to observe and are attending only in response to your sister's enthusiastic invitation. You will find out quickly whether or not they respect you and your faith.

You will probably not even be crossing yourself. You won't be joining them in prayer, so no crossing there. You are highly unlikely to hear a specific reference to the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Have you checked with your priest yet? Please don't attend without his blessing.
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2010, 07:27:33 AM »

If it happens that you will need to explain Orthodox beliefs about something, I would be careful not to explain any more than they are willing to hear. If they close down or become argumentative, just stop. You are not obligated to give everything away, especially if they are closed to it, and debate is pointless. "Do not give holy things to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine."

And don't be afraid to say "I don't know", or "That is a mystery". There are many examples of mystery in our faith, and it's not something to run away from.

If you are able to give the Fathers' perspective on the verses of study, that would bring something to the table for everyone, I think. (If you know the topic or verses of study, you can read up on it beforehand.)  In my experience, a Protestant Bible study is a lot of "This verse means to me..." If you can share the ancient Christian interpretations instead of your own, some may be open to hearing it.

Let us know how it goes!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 07:32:42 AM by bogdan » Logged
Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2010, 08:18:55 AM »

I would recommend not praying with them, for one thing.
This is very true. While they are praying, you can be silently repeating the Jesus Prayer or others that sustain you. Don't behave as though you are joining them. It's probably not a good idea to participate actively in the Bible study. You can tell your sister and others that you are there only to observe and are attending only in response to your sister's enthusiastic invitation. You will find out quickly whether or not they respect you and your faith.

You will probably not even be crossing yourself. You won't be joining them in prayer, so no crossing there. You are highly unlikely to hear a specific reference to the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Have you checked with your priest yet? Please don't attend without his blessing.
Ok, now I HAVE to ask something that's been on my mind for a while.  Do I have to go to him, explain and get his pastoral blessing, or "blessing" in a sance that he tells me it's "OK" to go?  I could just call him for this.
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2010, 08:22:04 AM »

If it happens that you will need to explain Orthodox beliefs about something, I would be careful not to explain any more than they are willing to hear. If they close down or become argumentative, just stop. You are not obligated to give everything away, especially if they are closed to it, and debate is pointless. "Do not give holy things to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine."

And don't be afraid to say "I don't know", or "That is a mystery". There are many examples of mystery in our faith, and it's not something to run away from.

If you are able to give the Fathers' perspective on the verses of study, that would bring something to the table for everyone, I think. (If you know the topic or verses of study, you can read up on it beforehand.)  In my experience, a Protestant Bible study is a lot of "This verse means to me..." If you can share the ancient Christian interpretations instead of your own, some may be open to hearing it.

Let us know how it goes!
I sure will!

and I just LOVE the Orthodox Study Bible, because it has commentary by ancient and modern FAthers of the CHurch.

and there's where that verse in comminion prayers comes to mind "and I will not speak of thy mysteries to thine enemies..."
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2010, 08:50:33 AM »

I would recommend not praying with them, for one thing.
This is very true. While they are praying, you can be silently repeating the Jesus Prayer or others that sustain you. Don't behave as though you are joining them. It's probably not a good idea to participate actively in the Bible study. You can tell your sister and others that you are there only to observe and are attending only in response to your sister's enthusiastic invitation. You will find out quickly whether or not they respect you and your faith.

You will probably not even be crossing yourself. You won't be joining them in prayer, so no crossing there. You are highly unlikely to hear a specific reference to the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Have you checked with your priest yet? Please don't attend without his blessing.
Ok, now I HAVE to ask something that's been on my mind for a while.  Do I have to go to him, explain and get his pastoral blessing, or "blessing" in a sance that he tells me it's "OK" to go?  I could just call him for this.
Trevor, my whole family (including wife) is Evangelical Protestant. While I do have a general blessing to attend services that don't conflict with my own, I still go to him to explain the specific situation. I don't want to keep any of that from him. The only exceptions are weddings and funerals. The latter can of course occur more quickly and unexpectedly than I can have a word with my priest. Even attending weddings will likely come up in ordinary conversation with him, before or after the event.

But I really do encourage you to be open with your priest. He knows you better than I do. He may even have some knowledge of the church you expect to attend and can give you some specific counsel.
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2010, 09:45:14 AM »

As others have said, seek advice from your priest.  If he thinks it would be ok for you to attend then of course go.  Your sister is obviously excited about what she is learning and although it might not be in the ideal context, she is studying the scripture.  Seeing and having an understanding of that context could be a point of connection to be able to show the true faith and Church to your sister.
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2010, 11:25:29 AM »

You might also want to read one of the threads Alfred Persson has been involved in here at OC.net, as you will undoubtedly encounter a lot of people who share similar opinions/theology.
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2010, 12:48:39 PM »

You might also want to read one of the threads Alfred Persson has been involved in here at OC.net, as you will undoubtedly encounter a lot of people who share similar opinions/theology.
Oh, please don't send him there! Alfred really is not representative of the Evangelical Christians I know, yes some doctrinal issues might be the same, but that would be just chance. We don't know what group Alfred belongs to. It may be quite the opposite of the one Trevor's sister is involved with. Not all Evangelical Protestants are "once saved, always saved", not all are as radically "sola Scriptura" as Alfred, not all are dispensational as I believe Alfred is, the list goes on.

There are non-denominational churches that are quite sane as well as those that flirt with insanity. That was why I suggested in an earlier message that Trevor might be able to find out something about the church in question from his priest, who, if he knows the community he serves, will likely know (or know of) that particular church. Given that it has what must be an active and possibly relatively large youth group, it might be quite well known in Trevor's town.
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2010, 03:55:12 PM »

genesisone, you may be right, and of course there are some wonderful evangelical Protestants out there (the late great +"Internet Monk" for example).

However, there are others who specifically target Catholic and, I presume, Orthodox Christians, for conversion, so it never hurts to be prepared for all possibilities. Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 04:17:20 PM »

genesisone, you may be right, and of course there are some wonderful evangelical Protestants out there (the late great +"Internet Monk" for example).

However, there are others who specifically target Catholic and, I presume, Orthodox Christians, for conversion, so it never hurts to be prepared for all possibilities. Smiley


I agree. I understand Trevor's desire to support his sister but depending on the group he could be walking into an incredibly hostile environment. I know how some evangelicals can be as I have experienced it firsthand. Quite frankly for someone his age and experience level it could be very spiritually damaging if he is exposed to some of the more aggressive forms of evangelicalism. That his sister advised him not to bring his Orthodox Study Bible is a big red flag to me. I recommend that he stay away and find other ways to support his sister.



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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 05:43:13 PM »

genesisone, you may be right, and of course there are some wonderful evangelical Protestants out there (the late great +"Internet Monk" for example).

However, there are others who specifically target Catholic and, I presume, Orthodox Christians, for conversion, so it never hurts to be prepared for all possibilities. Smiley


I agree. I understand Trevor's desire to support his sister but depending on the group he could be walking into an incredibly hostile environment. I know how some evangelicals can be as I have experienced it firsthand. Quite frankly for someone his age and experience level it could be very spiritually damaging if he is exposed to some of the more aggressive forms of evangelicalism. That his sister advised him not to bring his Orthodox Study Bible is a big red flag to me. I recommend that he stay away and find other ways to support his sister.




I totally understand you.  I have been invited to this before and turned it down for this very reason.  HOWEVER, I am just going to their 35 minute bible study.  I'll just sit back and watch.  I won't be like "look at me, I'm Orthodox!"  I'll just sit and listen to what has made my little sister discover scripture and God.
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 06:23:17 PM »

genesisone, you may be right, and of course there are some wonderful evangelical Protestants out there (the late great +"Internet Monk" for example).

However, there are others who specifically target Catholic and, I presume, Orthodox Christians, for conversion, so it never hurts to be prepared for all possibilities. Smiley


I agree. I understand Trevor's desire to support his sister but depending on the group he could be walking into an incredibly hostile environment. I know how some evangelicals can be as I have experienced it firsthand. Quite frankly for someone his age and experience level it could be very spiritually damaging if he is exposed to some of the more aggressive forms of evangelicalism. That his sister advised him not to bring his Orthodox Study Bible is a big red flag to me. I recommend that he stay away and find other ways to support his sister.




I totally understand you.  I have been invited to this before and turned it down for this very reason.  HOWEVER, I am just going to their 35 minute bible study.  I'll just sit back and watch.  I won't be like "look at me, I'm Orthodox!"  I'll just sit and listen to what has made my little sister discover scripture and God.

"I'm just going down into the darkened basement to flip the circuit breaker and turn the lights back on.  What could happen?  I'll be right back."
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2010, 06:28:44 PM »

genesisone, you may be right, and of course there are some wonderful evangelical Protestants out there (the late great +"Internet Monk" for example).

However, there are others who specifically target Catholic and, I presume, Orthodox Christians, for conversion, so it never hurts to be prepared for all possibilities. Smiley


I agree. I understand Trevor's desire to support his sister but depending on the group he could be walking into an incredibly hostile environment. I know how some evangelicals can be as I have experienced it firsthand. Quite frankly for someone his age and experience level it could be very spiritually damaging if he is exposed to some of the more aggressive forms of evangelicalism. That his sister advised him not to bring his Orthodox Study Bible is a big red flag to me. I recommend that he stay away and find other ways to support his sister.




I totally understand you.  I have been invited to this before and turned it down for this very reason.  HOWEVER, I am just going to their 35 minute bible study.  I'll just sit back and watch.  I won't be like "look at me, I'm Orthodox!"  I'll just sit and listen to what has made my little sister discover scripture and God.

"I'm just going down into the darkened basement to flip the circuit breaker and turn the lights back on.  What could happen?  I'll be right back."
lol, good point!
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2010, 07:08:35 PM »

I totally understand you.  I have been invited to this before and turned it down for this very reason.  HOWEVER, I am just going to their 35 minute bible study.  I'll just sit back and watch.  I won't be like "look at me, I'm Orthodox!"  I'll just sit and listen to what has made my little sister discover scripture and God.


Well if there's one thing those of us who are older know about teenagers it's that they're going to do what they want to do regardless of what anyone says to them.  Tongue

That being said, there's no reason for you to attend a Protestant bible study. You are almost certainly going to hear heterodox teachings and you may face a barrage of aggressive evangelicals, armed to the teeth with Scripture verses that supposedly "prove" their position, challenging the very fabric of your faith. Even if you aren't swayed by them you are still placing yourself in an occasion to sin by judging them and perhaps even resenting them. Take my word on this, I know from recent personal experience.

Trevor, they don't think the same way we do. The world in which they exist, at least spiritually speaking, in ontologically different from ours. God has counted you worthy to enter the Orthodox Church, the one true faith. Don't risk muddying the waters.  Smiley



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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2010, 08:31:05 PM »

Well, I think the best advice is what others upthread already suggested: chat with your priest first and follow his advice in the matter.
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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2010, 09:33:39 PM »

I totally understand you.  I have been invited to this before and turned it down for this very reason.  HOWEVER, I am just going to their 35 minute bible study.  I'll just sit back and watch.  I won't be like "look at me, I'm Orthodox!"  I'll just sit and listen to what has made my little sister discover scripture and God.


Well if there's one thing those of us who are older know about teenagers it's that they're going to do what they want to do regardless of what anyone says to them.  Tongue

That being said, there's no reason for you to attend a Protestant bible study. You are almost certainly going to hear heterodox teachings and you may face a barrage of aggressive evangelicals, armed to the teeth with Scripture verses that supposedly "prove" their position, challenging the very fabric of your faith. Even if you aren't swayed by them you are still placing yourself in an occasion to sin by judging them and perhaps even resenting them. Take my word on this, I know from recent personal experience.

Trevor, they don't think the same way we do. The world in which they exist, at least spiritually speaking, in ontologically different from ours. God has counted you worthy to enter the Orthodox Church, the one true faith. Don't risk muddying the waters.  Smiley




your right, I will do this. thanks!
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2010, 04:17:00 PM »

I totally understand you.  I have been invited to this before and turned it down for this very reason.  HOWEVER, I am just going to their 35 minute bible study.  I'll just sit back and watch.  I won't be like "look at me, I'm Orthodox!"  I'll just sit and listen to what has made my little sister discover scripture and God.


Well if there's one thing those of us who are older know about teenagers it's that they're going to do what they want to do regardless of what anyone says to them.  Tongue

That being said, there's no reason for you to attend a Protestant bible study. You are almost certainly going to hear heterodox teachings and you may face a barrage of aggressive evangelicals, armed to the teeth with Scripture verses that supposedly "prove" their position, challenging the very fabric of your faith. Even if you aren't swayed by them you are still placing yourself in an occasion to sin by judging them and perhaps even resenting them. Take my word on this, I know from recent personal experience.

Trevor, they don't think the same way we do. The world in which they exist, at least spiritually speaking, in ontologically different from ours. God has counted you worthy to enter the Orthodox Church, the one true faith. Don't risk muddying the waters.  Smiley





Exactly.
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2010, 05:47:30 PM »

Our LOrd works in mysterious ways, that's for sure!  we are not going to this heterodox Bible study, after all.  my sister would see her ex-boyfriend there (she criend when she told me why we couldn't go).  BUT, I asked her if sometime she'd like to come to my church's Bible study.  she said "sure".

WOW!  until now, she has never wanted to step foot into my Church.  she says she may go with me next week, to the Bible study!!!!

GLORY TO GOD!
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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2010, 05:55:44 PM »

Our LOrd works in mysterious ways, that's for sure!  we are not going to this heterodox Bible study, after all.  my sister would see her ex-boyfriend there (she criend when she told me why we couldn't go).  BUT, I asked her if sometime she'd like to come to my church's Bible study.  she said "sure".

WOW!  until now, she has never wanted to step foot into my Church.  she says she may go with me next week, to the Bible study!!!!

GLORY TO GOD!


Wow that's awesome! (not the crying part of course)

Just be careful to show her the same respect you expect. Explain the faith if she asked but don't attempt to pressure or proselytize her. I wouldn't think you would do that but I also know how enthusiastic we all can be about our faith at times. Hopefully it will be a good experience for both of you.


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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2010, 07:37:14 PM »

Our LOrd works in mysterious ways, that's for sure!  we are not going to this heterodox Bible study, after all.  my sister would see her ex-boyfriend there (she criend when she told me why we couldn't go).  BUT, I asked her if sometime she'd like to come to my church's Bible study.  she said "sure".

WOW!  until now, she has never wanted to step foot into my Church.  she says she may go with me next week, to the Bible study!!!!

GLORY TO GOD!
That really is good news, Trevor. I knew an answer had to be in there somewhere.

Paisius is quite right. Try as hard as you can to not overwhelm her. You'll need to be a friend, perhaps even more that you need to be a brother.

I'll be looking forward to the rest of this story.
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