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Author Topic: Attendance at a Western Rite Church  (Read 8451 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2010, 11:43:51 PM »

I once went to a funeral for a monk who was once part of a Western-rite community here in Seattle.  Eventually, it was merged with another community and the "Western-rite" disappeared.
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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2010, 12:07:16 AM »

However they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople like some Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in communion with Rome.
But if they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with Constantinople, why is this not similar to a claim that you are orthodox in communion with Rome?
Roman Catholics claim that their religion is an orthodox one.
Who on earth claimed that one?
 
See reply #41.
It says that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church. And the WRO are western rite are they not?
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2010, 12:48:50 AM »

However they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople like some Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in communion with Rome.
But if they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with Constantinople, why is this not similar to a claim that you are orthodox in communion with Rome?
Roman Catholics claim that their religion is an orthodox one.
Who on earth claimed that one?
 
See reply #41.
It says that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church. And the WRO are western rite are they not?


You can probably get some hair spray to take care of those split ends.
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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2010, 03:26:11 AM »

However they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople like some Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in communion with Rome.
But if they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with Constantinople, why is this not similar to a claim that you are orthodox in communion with Rome?
Roman Catholics claim that their religion is an orthodox one.
Who on earth claimed that one?
 
See reply #41.
It says that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church. And the WRO are western rite are they not?


You can probably get some hair spray to take care of those split ends.
In other words, according to the sayso of some of the posters here, reverse uniatism as practised by the Western rite Orthodox is OK, but the uniatism of Eastern Catholics is not OK?
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« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2010, 07:35:21 AM »

However they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople like some Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in communion with Rome.
But if they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with Constantinople, why is this not similar to a claim that you are orthodox in communion with Rome?

I've understanded that some Eastern Catholics claim to be basically EOs and OOs in communion with Rome but WRO doesn't claim to be basically RCs in communion with Constantinople. WRO doesn't claim to have the same faith as RCs have while some Eastern Catholics claim to have the same faith as EOs and OOs have. While WRO might claim that they are Western Catholics it doesn't do it in the sense that they are basically RCs or that they have the same faith as RCs have.

So if they said that they are orthodox in communion in Rome in the sense that they believe that their doctrine is fully correct and that they are still in communion with Rome I wouldn't object it. That would be analogous to saying that WRO are Western Catholics. However the present use doesn't imply that but that their doctrine is the same as EOs and OOs have which is obviously incorrect and not analogous to saying that WRO are Western Catholics. More analogous example to the present use of Orthodox in communion with Rome formula would be something like Lutheran in communion with Rome. Which is of course as sheer nonsense as Orthodox in communion with Rome is.
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« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2010, 10:52:31 AM »

Catholic = Universal

"We believe in One Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church"

Western = Western Europe, North America and parts of South America

Roman Catholic = The Church under the Pope of Rome

Orthodox Church = Catholic Church (not Roman Catholic)

Thus, Western Rite Orthodox Christians call themselves Orthodox Catholic, and members of the Catholic Church.  It has nothing to do with Rome, we are not Roman Catholic and we are not Uniates.  We are Orthodox.

Offensive U-word appeared to be not offensive so it's back - Michał Kalina.
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« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2010, 03:49:14 PM »

To clarify, I wasn't referencing Eastern Catholics, I was stating, in response to other posts in this thread that implied it, that Western Rite Orthodox are not a form of Uniatism.  Eastern Catholics have nothing to do with what I said, so I apologize if anyone interpreted it that way.
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« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2010, 03:53:57 PM »

To clarify, I wasn't referencing Eastern Catholics, I was stating, in response to other posts in this thread that implied it, that Western Rite Orthodox are not a form of Uniatism.  Eastern Catholics have nothing to do with what I said, so I apologize if anyone interpreted it that way.

I understand. I am sorry for that accusation and my misunderstanding.
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« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2010, 11:13:39 PM »

Just to let you all know, I did attend the mid-week liturgy at my local western rite parish this evening.

First off, they used the liturgy of st. gregory, which I enjoyed, although it was 99% english. It was a simple service, without any chanting or singing (I was told that they would have a chanter this sunday as well as an organist). The setup was similar to what you would see in a RC church, with the altar and the celibrants in front of the parishoners and not behind an iconostasis. The celibrants had their back turned to us for most of the liturgy. I'd imagine this is much like how the tridentine masses were/are conducted. One thing I thought was interesting was during communion; the communion wafers (which were unleavened) were dipped in the chalice before being given to communicants. It seemed like a very efficient and safe way to distribute communion under both species. That's all I can think of at the moment, feel free to ask me anything if you like.
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« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2010, 11:18:24 PM »

However they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople like some Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in communion with Rome.
But if they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with Constantinople, why is this not similar to a claim that you are orthodox in communion with Rome?

I've understanded that some Eastern Catholics claim to be basically EOs and OOs in communion with Rome but WRO doesn't claim to be basically RCs in communion with Constantinople. WRO doesn't claim to have the same faith as RCs have while some Eastern Catholics claim to have the same faith as EOs and OOs have. While WRO might claim that they are Western Catholics it doesn't do it in the sense that they are basically RCs or that they have the same faith as RCs have.

So if they said that they are orthodox in communion in Rome in the sense that they believe that their doctrine is fully correct and that they are still in communion with Rome I wouldn't object it. That would be analogous to saying that WRO are Western Catholics. However the present use doesn't imply that but that their doctrine is the same as EOs and OOs have which is obviously incorrect and not analogous to saying that WRO are Western Catholics. More analogous example to the present use of Orthodox in communion with Rome formula would be something like Lutheran in communion with Rome. Which is of course as sheer nonsense as Orthodox in communion with Rome is.
Yes. Your explanation is pretty good.
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« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2010, 11:22:19 PM »

... One thing I thought was interesting was during communion; the communion wafers (which were unleavened) were dipped in the chalice before being given to communicants. It seemed like a very efficient and safe way to distribute communion under both species. That's all I can think of at the moment, feel free to ask me anything if you like.
Generally, is it permitted in Eastern Orthodoxy for the priest to dip part of the Holy Bread into the Holy Wine and to distribute it thusly to the faithful communicants?
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« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2010, 11:28:04 PM »

Just to let you all know, I did attend the mid-week liturgy at my local western rite parish this evening.

First off, they used the liturgy of st. gregory, which I enjoyed, although it was 99% english. It was a simple service, without any chanting or singing (I was told that they would have a chanter this sunday as well as an organist). The setup was similar to what you would see in a RC church, with the altar and the celibrants in front of the parishoners and not behind an iconostasis. The celibrants had their back turned to us for most of the liturgy. I'd imagine this is much like how the tridentine masses were/are conducted. One thing I thought was interesting was during communion; the communion wafers (which were unleavened) were dipped in the chalice before being given to communicants. It seemed like a very efficient and safe way to distribute communion under both species. That's all I can think of at the moment, feel free to ask me anything if you like.

Yea I've been to the Liturgy of St. Gregory in both a low & high mass form. Both were very reverent. The host though that they use in WRO is actually leavened bread, it's just smooshed down & looks unleavened.
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« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2010, 11:48:04 PM »

I suppose it depends on the jurisdiction, but the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate uses leavened wafers.
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« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2010, 11:57:26 PM »

... One thing I thought was interesting was during communion; the communion wafers (which were unleavened) were dipped in the chalice before being given to communicants. It seemed like a very efficient and safe way to distribute communion under both species. That's all I can think of at the moment, feel free to ask me anything if you like.
Generally, is it permitted in Eastern Orthodoxy for the priest to dip part of the Holy Bread into the Holy Wine and to distribute it thusly to the faithful communicants?

In Eastern Orthodox Churches the Body and Blood are co-mingled in the chalice and distributed to the communicants via spoon.
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« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2010, 12:00:55 AM »

I apologize, I wasn't close enough to discern whether the bread was flattened leavened bread or leavened wafers, I just know that they were circular and flat in appearance, so I just assumed it was the same unleavened host that is used by the RC Churches.
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« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2010, 12:44:03 AM »

That's really informative, Ortho_Cat, thanks!   Interesting how they distribute communion - quite different from the Tridentine-style "little white wafer on the tongue" - yet in such a way that I think a lot of Traditionalists would like it. Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2010, 03:34:39 AM »

Just to let you all know, I did attend the mid-week liturgy at my local western rite parish this evening.

First off, they used the liturgy of st. gregory, which I enjoyed, although it was 99% english. It was a simple service, without any chanting or singing (I was told that they would have a chanter this sunday as well as an organist). The setup was similar to what you would see in a RC church, with the altar and the celibrants in front of the parishoners and not behind an iconostasis. The celibrants had their back turned to us for most of the liturgy. I'd imagine this is much like how the tridentine masses were/are conducted. One thing I thought was interesting was during communion; the communion wafers (which were unleavened) were dipped in the chalice before being given to communicants. It seemed like a very efficient and safe way to distribute communion under both species. That's all I can think of at the moment, feel free to ask me anything if you like.

Did the laypeople participate in anything out loud or did some kind of altar serves do the responses?
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« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2010, 04:34:11 AM »

Just to let you all know, I did attend the mid-week liturgy at my local western rite parish this evening.

First off, they used the liturgy of st. gregory, which I enjoyed, although it was 99% english. It was a simple service, without any chanting or singing (I was told that they would have a chanter this sunday as well as an organist). The setup was similar to what you would see in a RC church, with the altar and the celibrants in front of the parishoners and not behind an iconostasis. The celibrants had their back turned to us for most of the liturgy. I'd imagine this is much like how the tridentine masses were/are conducted. One thing I thought was interesting was during communion; the communion wafers (which were unleavened) were dipped in the chalice before being given to communicants. It seemed like a very efficient and safe way to distribute communion under both species. That's all I can think of at the moment, feel free to ask me anything if you like.

Did the laypeople participate in anything out loud or did some kind of altar serves do the responses?

Here is a copy of the DL of St. Gregory that we used (not exact, but similar), the responses of the laypeople are denoted by 'R:'

http://web.archive.org/web/20010811113239/http://members.aol.com/frnicholas/liturgy.htm
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« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2010, 10:19:30 AM »

The liturgies of the Western Rite are very much participated in by the congregants.  In fact, I've heard from several people who ended up in Western Rite parishes that one of the determining factors was that they found the St. John Chrysostom liturgy to be too much of a "passive" experience; something they observed between the choir and the celebrants.  Of course, that's just a matter of opinion. 

And I would say the more common practice in contemporary Western Rite services is to actually serve the species separately, with the priest distributing the Body, directly onto the tongue, and the deacon distributing the Blood in the chalice.
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« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2010, 10:31:39 AM »

The liturgies of the Western Rite are very much participated in by the congregants.  In fact, I've heard from several people who ended up in Western Rite parishes that one of the determining factors was that they found the St. John Chrysostom liturgy to be too much of a "passive" experience; something they observed between the choir and the celebrants.  Of course, that's just a matter of opinion.  

And I would say the more common practice in contemporary Western Rite services is to actually serve the species separately, with the priest distributing the Body, directly onto the tongue, and the deacon distributing the Blood in the chalice.

I wonder what's the pratice in ROCOR's WR parishes and monasteries. ROCOR tends to be more traditionalist than Antioch so I wonder whether they follow more traditional forms congregational participation and distribution of Eucharist.

Btw, for some reason I've never felt passive while participating in Byzantine services even though choir and the clergy sings and chants pretty much everything but Latin low mass a whole different experience. I wonder why they felt so different as to passiveness.
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« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2010, 10:37:57 AM »

I believe ROCOR parishes use "the dip method."  This is how it is done at Christminster monastery, a ROCOR Western Rite monastery.
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« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2010, 10:44:53 AM »

I believe ROCOR parishes use "the dip method."  This is how it is done at Christminster monastery, a ROCOR Western Rite monastery.

St Petroc Monastery and its dependencies serve the species separately: the Body is given into one's hand and the Blood is distributed in the chalice.
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« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2010, 11:06:13 AM »

I believe ROCOR parishes use "the dip method."  This is how it is done at Christminster monastery, a ROCOR Western Rite monastery.

Right, 'Instinction' (the dip method Tongue) and 'Communion on the Tongue' are the most appropriate methods to receive the Eucharist. You'll likely see one or the other depending on if the Western Rite is 'Anglican' or 'Latin'.

'Communion in the Hand' is one of the methods that has become especially hated by traditional Catholics.
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« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2010, 11:12:49 AM »

'Communion in the Hand' is one of the methods that has become especially hated by traditional Catholics.

For us Orthodox it is actually the traditional method, still used in the Liturgy of St James and in some WRO parishes.

Quote
To receive the bread, form your hands into a cup, one on top of the other, and hold them out for the priest to place the wafer in. This manner of receiving communion was described by St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his 4th century work On the Eucharistic Rite: Make thy left hand as if a throne for thy right, which is on the eve of receiving the King. And having hollowed thy palm, receive the Body of Christ… Other ancient sources prescribe this same method. For example, Canon CI from the Quinisext Council (692) states that "…if anyone wishes to be a participator of the immaculate Body in the time of the Synaxis, and to offer himself for the communion, let him draw near, arranging his hands in the form of a cross…" St. John of Damascus in De Fide Orthodoxa urges us to "…draw near to it with an ardent desire, and with our hands held in the form of the cross, let us receive the body of the Crucified One."
Source: http://www.westernorthodox.com/customs
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« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2010, 11:16:10 AM »

'Communion in the Hand' is one of the methods that has become especially hated by traditional Catholics.

For us Orthodox it is actually the traditional method, still used in the Liturgy of St James and in some WRO parishes.

Quote
To receive the bread, form your hands into a cup, one on top of the other, and hold them out for the priest to place the wafer in. This manner of receiving communion was described by St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his 4th century work On the Eucharistic Rite: Make thy left hand as if a throne for thy right, which is on the eve of receiving the King. And having hollowed thy palm, receive the Body of Christ… Other ancient sources prescribe this same method. For example, Canon CI from the Quinisext Council (692) states that "…if anyone wishes to be a participator of the immaculate Body in the time of the Synaxis, and to offer himself for the communion, let him draw near, arranging his hands in the form of a cross…" St. John of Damascus in De Fide Orthodoxa urges us to "…draw near to it with an ardent desire, and with our hands held in the form of the cross, let us receive the body of the Crucified One."
Source: http://www.westernorthodox.com/customs

I stand corrected!  laugh
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« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2010, 11:38:04 AM »

Well, that alone proves the WRO is not out to proselytize disaffected RC's - since virtually every Traditionalist RC group I've ever encountered is horrified by "Communion in the hand", it's hard to believe they'd eagerly convert to another church, however "traditional" in appearance otherwise, which used that practice.
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« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2010, 12:28:47 PM »

Well, that alone proves the WRO is not out to proselytize disaffected RC's - since virtually every Traditionalist RC group I've ever encountered is horrified by "Communion in the hand", it's hard to believe they'd eagerly convert to another church, however "traditional" in appearance otherwise, which used that practice.

Many of the traditionalist Roman Catholics I've met have also been ultramontanists, which would make becoming Orthodox a difficult move.
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« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2010, 12:58:09 PM »

True, shanghaiski, just pointing out this would be another obstacle for them.
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« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2010, 12:59:31 PM »

Well, that alone proves the WRO is not out to proselytize disaffected RC's - since virtually every Traditionalist RC group I've ever encountered is horrified by "Communion in the hand", it's hard to believe they'd eagerly convert to another church, however "traditional" in appearance otherwise, which used that practice.

Many of the traditionalist Roman Catholics I've met have also been ultramontanists, which would make becoming Orthodox a difficult move.
That word means so many different things to so many different people. Can you clarify exactly what you mean?
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« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2010, 01:06:24 PM »

Which word, Papist, "traditionalist" or "ultramontane"?
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« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2010, 01:45:09 PM »

Which word, Papist, "traditionalist" or "ultramontane"?
Initially i meant "ultramontane" but nowthat I think of it, "traditionalist" as well.
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« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2010, 04:05:50 PM »

Just to let you all know, I did attend the mid-week liturgy at my local western rite parish this evening.

First off, they used the liturgy of st. gregory, which I enjoyed, although it was 99% english. It was a simple service, without any chanting or singing (I was told that they would have a chanter this sunday as well as an organist). The setup was similar to what you would see in a RC church, with the altar and the celibrants in front of the parishoners and not behind an iconostasis. The celibrants had their back turned to us for most of the liturgy. I'd imagine this is much like how the tridentine masses were/are conducted. One thing I thought was interesting was during communion; the communion wafers (which were unleavened) were dipped in the chalice before being given to communicants. It seemed like a very efficient and safe way to distribute communion under both species. That's all I can think of at the moment, feel free to ask me anything if you like.


Thanks. That's some good first hand information, I was hoping to hear.
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« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2010, 06:43:08 AM »

I have been to masses in the Catholic Church where they receive communion by intincture. It must always be administerd by the priest. He holds both the host and wine. After the host is dipped in the wine it is placed on the tongue of the communicant. It cannot be received by hand on touched by the communicant. There is always a server present to prevent anything from dropping to the ground.  I liked it, since it allows you to receive both the bread and wine. It sounds like this is what happens at the WRO mass.
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« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2010, 06:44:51 AM »

I have been to masses in the Catholic Church where they receive communion by intincture. It must always be administerd by the priest. He holds both the host and wine. After the host is dipped in the wine it is placed on the tongue of the communicant. It cannot be received by hand on touched by the communicant. There is always a server present to prevent anything from dropping to the ground.  I liked it, since it allows you to receive both the bread and wine. It sounds like this is what happens at the WRO mass.

Yes, correct.
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« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2010, 11:01:33 AM »

Yes, they did this at the old San Fernando Mission when I attended Mass there many years ago.
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« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2010, 11:03:14 AM »

Also, to answer Papist's earlier question, I use "traditionalist RC's" to describe those who prefer the pre-Novus Ordo style of Mass and Sacraments.
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« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2010, 07:09:53 PM »

Yes, they did this at the old San Fernando Mission when I attended Mass there many years ago.
  I grew up in that part of L.A.!  Smiley
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« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2010, 09:06:49 PM »

...can I ask why some bishops don't like / forbid this stuff?
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« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2010, 10:31:32 PM »

...can I ask why some bishops don't like / forbid this stuff?

what 'stuff' ?
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« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2010, 03:27:45 PM »

...can I ask why some bishops don't like / forbid this stuff?

Orthodox bishops cannot forbid the faithful from attendance at a Divine Liturgy in a canonical church - regardless of rite.
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« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2010, 12:58:56 AM »

...can I ask why some bishops don't like / forbid this stuff?

Orthodox bishops cannot forbid the faithful from attendance at a Divine Liturgy in a canonical church - regardless of rite.

Thanks, this is exactly the answer I sought.  Fellow OC.Net members - I know I was unclear, but I'm glad a tonsured clergyman understood my pretext!

I've always been unsure about attending one, but with this answer (which makes perfect sense), I will fret no more.
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« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2010, 01:05:13 AM »

...can I ask why some bishops don't like / forbid this stuff?

Orthodox bishops cannot forbid the faithful from attendance at a Divine Liturgy in a canonical church - regardless of rite.

Thanks, this is exactly the answer I sought.  Fellow OC.Net members - I know I was unclear, but I'm glad a tonsured clergyman understood my pretext!

I've always been unsure about attending one, but with this answer (which makes perfect sense), I will fret no more.
~Authio
I've gone several times, and I am Eastern rite.  Fr. David of blessed memory, a priest of the CO WRO retired at our Church, serving mostly Eastern rite, but I had gone to his chapel where he served Western rite.
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« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2010, 04:02:14 AM »

wow. I didn't know we WRO were such a mysterious animals. Huh
Antiochian Western Rite...anybody asks my religious affiliation-it's Eastern Orthodox; no hybrid adjectives about east, west Catholic, Orthodox, or who I am in communion with...The Liturgy is celebrated exactly like Eastern Rite Liturgies I have visited...there is no census taken on who is Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Catechumen...that's the Priest's business to know and deal with; As with other Orthodox parishes, no one is asked to leave, but it is certainly made clear only those who are Orthodox and make regular confession to an Orthodox Priest are permitted to participate in the Eucharist.
There appears, at least to me, no marketing campaign to recruit disaffected Roman Catholics (East or West)...the Liturgy that is followed is that approved by our Bishops.  The reverence and participation expected at any Orthodox Liturgy is expected at WR liturgies.  We participate in the chants/which like Eastern Rite some parts change according to the liturgical year/some completely, some only by mode (what you would call tones).
We have Vespers Sat evening and Lauds before morning liturgy (vespers before an evening liturgy).
We are not aliens and our reason for being Orthodox are the same as any other Orthodox, no matter which rite we participate in;
I guess I don't understand what's the big mystery or that there is some ulterior motive (unitism? recruiting disaffected traditionalists or Roman Catholics.  We are simply there working out our salvation the same as any other Orthodox Parish. angel

I have been WR over 4 years.  I am just as familiar with Eastern Rite and switch back and forth without batting an eye.  I don't know I "chose" WR; it was just the place I happened to land when I converted...but I do feel I have benefited by being able to participate in both rites. Smiley
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« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2010, 01:26:27 PM »

I think it is a blessing that the WRO have the opportunity to minister to the needs of dissaffected RC's and Anglicans.
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« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2010, 11:57:42 PM »

wow. I didn't know we WRO were such a mysterious animals. Huh
Antiochian Western Rite...anybody asks my religious affiliation-it's Eastern Orthodox; no hybrid adjectives about east, west Catholic, Orthodox, or who I am in communion with...The Liturgy is celebrated exactly like Eastern Rite Liturgies I have visited...there is no census taken on who is Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Catechumen...that's the Priest's business to know and deal with
....
We are not aliens and our reason for being Orthodox are the same as any other Orthodox
....
I have been WR over 4 years.  I.... don't know I "chose" WR; it was just the place I happened to land when I converted...

I appreciate your candor, Kaarina.  I especially appreciate that you do not use vague terms as you described.  I prefer it when things are explained simply, and you did just that.

Quote
We have Vespers Sat evening and Lauds before morning liturgy (vespers before an evening liturgy).

Why would you have a Liturgy in the evening?  And is Lauds another word for Matins or Orthros?
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