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Author Topic: Attendance at a Western Rite Church  (Read 8347 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ignatius II
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« on: October 18, 2010, 06:33:34 AM »

From reading some of the different threads on this forum, it would appear that the majority of participants are either members a segment of the Orthodox Church other than Western Rite or are inquirers.

Who on this forum is a member or attends a Western Rite Church?
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2010, 08:23:48 AM »

From reading some of the different threads on this forum, it would appear that the majority of participants are either members a segment of the Orthodox Church other than Western Rite or are inquirers.

Who on this forum is a member or attends a Western Rite Church?

Western Rite churches are extremely rare, so it's unlikely that the average Orthodox would attend one even if he preferred it.
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2010, 12:02:46 PM »

Who on this forum is a member or attends a Western Rite Church?

Reader KevinAndrew for instance.
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2010, 12:36:37 PM »

From reading some of the different threads on this forum, it would appear that the majority of participants are either members a segment of the Orthodox Church other than Western Rite or are inquirers.

Who on this forum is a member or attends a Western Rite Church?

I'm going to attend a service this Wednesday and I'll post my findings.
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Ignatius II
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2010, 06:08:59 PM »

From reading some of the different threads on this forum, it would appear that the majority of participants are either members a segment of the Orthodox Church other than Western Rite or are inquirers.

Who on this forum is a member or attends a Western Rite Church?

I'm going to attend a service this Wednesday and I'll post my findings.

Thank you. i am interested n hearing your impressions.
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2010, 10:34:07 PM »

Here is the parish>

http://www.stmichaeloc.org/index.htm
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 10:37:00 PM »

I was in Wichita a few weeks ago. I didn't even think to look if they had a WRO parish.  Undecided
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 10:37:59 PM »

I was in Wichita a few weeks ago. I didn't even think to look if they had a WRO parish.  Undecided

Well, now you know! Wink
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 10:44:45 PM »

I was in Wichita a few weeks ago. I didn't even think to look if they had a WRO parish.  Undecided

Well, now you know! Wink


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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 11:15:01 PM »

From reading some of the different threads on this forum, it would appear that the majority of participants are either members a segment of the Orthodox Church other than Western Rite or are inquirers.

Who on this forum is a member or attends a Western Rite Church?

I'm going to attend a service this Wednesday and I'll post my findings.
Do the Western rite Orthodox accept Roman Catholics to participate in their Western rite services?
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2010, 11:20:23 PM »

Do the Western rite Orthodox accept Roman Catholics to participate in their Western rite services?

Yes.
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Communion is regarded as the ultimate expression of unity between those who share the faith, discipline and order of the Orthodox Church. Accordingly, it is given only to Orthodox Christians. Other persons attending the service, such as inquirers, visitors, catechumens, or family members who are not Orthodox, may come forward at the time of communion to receive a blessing. Orthodox may also do this when, for whatever reason, they are not taking the sacrament.
Source: http://www.westernorthodox.com/customs
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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2010, 11:27:06 PM »

From reading some of the different threads on this forum, it would appear that the majority of participants are either members a segment of the Orthodox Church other than Western Rite or are inquirers.

Who on this forum is a member or attends a Western Rite Church?

I'm going to attend a service this Wednesday and I'll post my findings.
Do the Western rite Orthodox accept Roman Catholics to participate in their Western rite services?

What do you mean participate? I don't see why Roman Catholics would be able to participate in Western rite services to any greater or lesser degree than your standard Orthodox services...  Huh
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2010, 02:12:01 AM »

I don't see why Roman Catholics would be able to participate in Western rite services to any greater or lesser degree than your standard Orthodox services...  Huh
There is a point in the liturgy when the priest says let all catechumens depart. Since according to the posters here, Roman Catholics are unbaptised heretics, would they not be required to depart at this point?
BTW, concerning Western Rite Orthodoxy, is Western Rite Orthodoxy reverse Uniatism?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 02:15:00 AM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2010, 02:26:52 AM »

BTW, concerning Western Rite Orthodoxy, is Western Rite Orthodoxy reverse Uniatism?

There's no politics involved and they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople. Otherwise, I guess one could say so. On the other hand I think there's nothing wrong with the U-people unless they falsely claim that they are Orthodox in communion with Rome. That's simply untrue. Otherwise it's completely ok for me.
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2010, 03:00:10 AM »

There is a point in the liturgy when the priest says let all catechumens depart. Since according to the posters here, Roman Catholics are unbaptised heretics, would they not be required to depart at this point?

How does that make a catechumen?   Huh

...there's nothing wrong with the U-people unless they falsely claim that they are Orthodox in communion with Rome. That's simply untrue.
This is my only experience with Eastern Catholics.  Anyone had better encounters?

We don't use the word that begins with U here you have used because some members of the Eastern Catholic community find it offensive. It is explained here - Michał Kalina.
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 03:14:08 AM »

BTW, concerning Western Rite Orthodoxy, is Western Rite Orthodoxy reverse Uniatism?

There's no politics involved and they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople. Otherwise, I guess one could say so. On the other hand I think there's nothing wrong with the U-people unless they falsely claim that they are Orthodox in communion with Rome. That's simply untrue. Otherwise it's completely ok for me.
Don't they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with the Orthodox Church? Why isn't this reverse uniatism?
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 03:15:43 AM »

There is a point in the liturgy when the priest says let all catechumens depart. Since according to the posters here, Roman Catholics are unbaptised heretics, would they not be required to depart at this point?

How does that make a catechumen?   Huh

Because they are unbaptised heretics (according to the posters here)  trying to learn something about the Orthodox faith.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 03:16:03 AM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 03:18:27 AM »

Unless you are a catechumen, you don't "depart". You get to stick around. I know this from experience.
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2010, 03:31:01 AM »

Don't they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with the Orthodox Church?

Of course. However they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople like some Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in communion with Rome. They share the same doctrine as the other EO's. They hardly have any specifically Western or Latin theology as opposed to Eastern Catholics who claim to have specifically Eastern theology.

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Why isn't this reverse uniatism?

I didn't say that WRO isn't reverse uniatism. I have basically no problem with uniatism. If someone believes that communion with Rome is necessary for being a Catholic he/she is perfectly free to do so and act accordingly.
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2010, 07:55:12 AM »

Unless you are a catechumen, you don't "depart". You get to stick around. I know this from experience.
Honestly Catechumens don't even "depart" anymore.
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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2010, 08:03:10 AM »

BTW, concerning Western Rite Orthodoxy, is Western Rite Orthodoxy reverse Uniatism?

There's no politics involved and they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople. Otherwise, I guess one could say so. On the other hand I think there's nothing wrong with the U-people unless they falsely claim that they are Orthodox in communion with Rome. That's simply untrue. Otherwise it's completely ok for me.
Don't they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with the Orthodox Church? Why isn't this reverse uniatism?

What would be wrong with such "reverse uniatism"? The problem with the Eastern Catholics isn't that they use Eastern Rites, it's that they do it as a means to lure Orthodox into heresy.
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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2010, 08:10:01 AM »

Uh oh, people are using the U word...  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2010, 09:20:16 AM »

Why can't WRO simply be viewed as Orthodox Christianity that happens to use a liturgy that is not "of St. John Chrysostom"?
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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2010, 09:40:35 AM »

I was received into the Orthodox Church through a Western Rite parish and I continue to go there to this day.  KBN1 is spot on, we are simply Orthodox Christians who express our faith according to the ancient Western manner, rather than the contemporary Eastern manner.  We believe culture and heritage are important and we feel called to salvage anything that is redeemable in our historical Western expression.

Anyone is free to attend and participate in our services, though of course non-Orthodox cannot receive communion.  I think you'll find that it can be just as beautiful as any Eastern Rite service.
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« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2010, 11:13:46 AM »

I don't see why Roman Catholics would be able to participate in Western rite services to any greater or lesser degree than your standard Orthodox services...  Huh
There is a point in the liturgy when the priest says let all catechumens depart.

There is no such things in the WRO Liturgies.
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2010, 11:37:28 AM »

BTW, concerning Western Rite Orthodoxy, is Western Rite Orthodoxy reverse Uniatism?

There's no politics involved and they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople. Otherwise, I guess one could say so. On the other hand I think there's nothing wrong with the U-people unless they falsely claim that they are Orthodox in communion with Rome. That's simply untrue. Otherwise it's completely ok for me.
Don't they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with the Orthodox Church? Why isn't this reverse uniatism?

I've never heard western rite Orthodox people refer to themselves as "western Catholics in communion with the Orthodox Church." They simply call themselves Orthodox Christians like the rest of us.
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2010, 11:44:10 AM »

I've never heard western rite Orthodox people refer to themselves as "western Catholics in communion with the Orthodox Church." They simply call themselves Orthodox Christians like the rest of us.

Some WRO people do call themselves "Orthodox Catholic Christians", but some ERO people do it as well.
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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2010, 12:03:31 PM »

Unless you are a catechumen, you don't "depart". You get to stick around. I know this from experience.
Honestly Catechumens don't even "depart" anymore.

Nonsense!

This is one of those practices, such as subdeacons kissing the bishop's hands after washing them, or taking the blessed water to the people at the Great Entrance, or a number of other practices, where some people like to say with absolute certainty, 'This doesn't happen anymore', but you can be guaranteed that there will be a number of places where it does still happen.

A mere five years ago, my fellow catechumen and I were expect to leave at the dismissal of the catechumens.  We would take the time to discuss our faith journeys with each other, what we had learnt and how we had progressed, then we would be allowed back in after the Litany of Thanksgiving.  This is the custom of my parish and is what my priest was taught to do by the archimandrite who instructed him.  I would be very surprised if this custom were hard to come by.

M
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« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2010, 12:10:01 PM »

Unless you are a catechumen, you don't "depart". You get to stick around. I know this from experience.
Honestly Catechumens don't even "depart" anymore.

Nonsense!

This is one of those practices, such as subdeacons kissing the bishop's hands after washing them, or taking the blessed water to the people at the Great Entrance, or a number of other practices, where some people like to say with absolute certainty, 'This doesn't happen anymore', but you can be guaranteed that there will be a number of places where it does still happen.

A mere five years ago, my fellow catechumen and I were expect to leave at the dismissal of the catechumens.  We would take the time to discuss our faith journeys with each other, what we had learnt and how we had progressed, then we would be allowed back in after the Litany of Thanksgiving.  This is the custom of my parish and is what my priest was taught to do by the archimandrite who instructed him.  I would be very surprised if this custom were hard to come by.

M

Although my parish doesn't require catechumens to depart before the liturgy of the faithful, I have visited a number of parishes that do.  It is certainly not rare.
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« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2010, 12:13:36 PM »

Unless you are a catechumen, you don't "depart". You get to stick around. I know this from experience.
Honestly Catechumens don't even "depart" anymore.

Nonsense!

This is one of those practices, such as subdeacons kissing the bishop's hands after washing them, or taking the blessed water to the people at the Great Entrance, or a number of other practices, where some people like to say with absolute certainty, 'This doesn't happen anymore', but you can be guaranteed that there will be a number of places where it does still happen.

A mere five years ago, my fellow catechumen and I were expect to leave at the dismissal of the catechumens.  We would take the time to discuss our faith journeys with each other, what we had learnt and how we had progressed, then we would be allowed back in after the Litany of Thanksgiving.  This is the custom of my parish and is what my priest was taught to do by the archimandrite who instructed him.  I would be very surprised if this custom were hard to come by.

M

Just wondering, if a non-Orthodox person was visiting your church, would he be asked to leave as well with the catechumens?
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« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2010, 12:16:51 PM »

Yes, many Western Orthodox refer to themselves as "Orthodox Catholic" but that is in the classical meaning of "catholic" (universal) as opposed to "Roman Catholic."  We are not "Catholics in communion with Orthodoxy" we are Orthodox Christians in the fullest sense, we simply use our own historical rites to express our faith.
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« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2010, 01:07:02 PM »

Unless you are a catechumen, you don't "depart". You get to stick around. I know this from experience.
Honestly Catechumens don't even "depart" anymore.

Nonsense!

This is one of those practices, such as subdeacons kissing the bishop's hands after washing them, or taking the blessed water to the people at the Great Entrance, or a number of other practices, where some people like to say with absolute certainty, 'This doesn't happen anymore', but you can be guaranteed that there will be a number of places where it does still happen.

A mere five years ago, my fellow catechumen and I were expect to leave at the dismissal of the catechumens.  We would take the time to discuss our faith journeys with each other, what we had learnt and how we had progressed, then we would be allowed back in after the Litany of Thanksgiving.  This is the custom of my parish and is what my priest was taught to do by the archimandrite who instructed him.  I would be very surprised if this custom were hard to come by.

M

Just wondering, if a non-Orthodox person was visiting your church, would he be asked to leave as well with the catechumens?

No.  We are in a missionary situation here in Britain and it would perhaps not be best to enforce a strict understanding of the relationship between Orthodox ecclesiology and joint prayer/worship where visitors are concerned, who may simply be exploring and may be largely unfamiliar with, or potentially hurt by such a strict application.  I can understand the making of concessions in such cases for pastoral and missionary reasons.  Catechumens, on the other hand, have affirmed their confession of the Orthodox Faith, both in their rejection of Satan and affirmation of their turning to Christ, and also in their public and threefold profession of the Symbol of Faith.  Therefore, they should be instructed in why it is not proper for the unbaptised to be present at the Eucharist and it should not be any hardship for them.  It certainly was not for me.  I did not feel hard done by or anything like that, but simply understood it as part of my preparation for what I was to receive.  With proper catechesis, I imagine most catechumens would understand this.

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Michael
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« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2010, 01:07:41 PM »

From reading some of the different threads on this forum, it would appear that the majority of participants are either members a segment of the Orthodox Church other than Western Rite or are inquirers.

Who on this forum is a member or attends a Western Rite Church?

I go to a Western-Rite parish
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« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2010, 05:18:17 PM »

What would be wrong with such "reverse uniatism"? The problem with the Eastern Catholics isn't that they use Eastern Rites, it's that they do it as a means to lure Orthodox into heresy.

Do you really believe that?  I can assure you I've never tried to lure an Orthodox into my Church let alone into heresy.  I have a higher opinion of Orthodox than to think they could be fooled into being Byzantine Catholic simply because the Liturgy is the same.  And honestly there are enough differences, like the Pope of Rome being prayed for from one to four times, nobody could be fooled.  Eastern Catholics use Eastern Rites because they are the Rites of their ancestors and they are entitled to them.  We reject entirely the "Final Solution" of be Eastern Orthodox or be Latin Catholic promoted by some.

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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2010, 06:22:33 PM »

What would be wrong with such "reverse uniatism"? The problem with the Eastern Catholics isn't that they use Eastern Rites, it's that they do it as a means to lure Orthodox into heresy.
I could easily say the same thing of the WRO. In fact, I have my opinions about it. But that is not the intent of the Byzantine Catholic Church, nor any other Eastern Rite Catholic Church, to lure Orthodox Christians into our fold. They are simply celebrating the liturgy in their own tradition.
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« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2010, 06:39:38 PM »

What would be wrong with such "reverse uniatism"? The problem with the Eastern Catholics isn't that they use Eastern Rites, it's that they do it as a means to lure Orthodox into heresy.
I could easily say the same thing of the WRO. In fact, I have my opinions about it. But that is not the intent of the Byzantine Catholic Church, nor any other Eastern Rite Catholic Church, to lure Orthodox Christians into our fold. They are simply celebrating the liturgy in their own tradition.

It appears, however, to be that way from the Eastern Orthodox point of view. Again, it's just a point of view.
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« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2010, 07:34:19 PM »

What would be wrong with such "reverse uniatism"? The problem with the Eastern Catholics isn't that they use Eastern Rites, it's that they do it as a means to lure Orthodox into heresy.
I could easily say the same thing of the WRO. In fact, I have my opinions about it. But that is not the intent of the Byzantine Catholic Church, nor any other Eastern Rite Catholic Church, to lure Orthodox Christians into our fold. They are simply celebrating the liturgy in their own tradition.

It appears, however, to be that way from the Eastern Orthodox point of view. Again, it's just a point of view.

Appears?  I can state with confidence that more Eastern Catholics become Orthodox than Orthodox become Eastern Catholic.  If anything we are becoming the waystation for dissatisfied Latin Catholics on their way to the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2010, 07:39:52 PM »

What would be wrong with such "reverse uniatism"? The problem with the Eastern Catholics isn't that they use Eastern Rites, it's that they do it as a means to lure Orthodox into heresy.
I could easily say the same thing of the WRO. In fact, I have my opinions about it. But that is not the intent of the Byzantine Catholic Church, nor any other Eastern Rite Catholic Church, to lure Orthodox Christians into our fold. They are simply celebrating the liturgy in their own tradition.

It appears, however, to be that way from the Eastern Orthodox point of view. Again, it's just a point of view.

Appears?  I can state with confidence that more Eastern Catholics become Orthodox than Orthodox become Eastern Catholic.  If anything we are becoming the waystation for dissatisfied Latin Catholics on their way to the Orthodox Church.
That is true and the Roman hierarchy knew it. That's probably one reason they were so heavily latinized at one point in time.
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« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2010, 07:47:35 PM »

However they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople like some Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in communion with Rome.
But if they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with Constantinople, why is this not similar to a claim that you are orthodox in communion with Rome?
Roman Catholics claim that their religion is an orthodox one.
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« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2010, 07:48:39 PM »

Honestly Catechumens don't even "depart" anymore.
Does this mean that Orthodox do not take the liturgy seriously when it is asked that all catechumens depart?
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« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2010, 07:51:26 PM »

I've never heard western rite Orthodox people refer to themselves as "western Catholics in communion with the Orthodox Church." They simply call themselves Orthodox Christians like the rest of us.
I see where  Orthodox posters here say that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church and at least one poster goes so far as to say that the correct name for the RCC is the Vatican Church, not the Catholic Church.
So you have not read the posts here which refer to the fact that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church?
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« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2010, 08:21:15 PM »

I've never heard western rite Orthodox people refer to themselves as "western Catholics in communion with the Orthodox Church." They simply call themselves Orthodox Christians like the rest of us.
I see where  Orthodox posters here say that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church and at least one poster goes so far as to say that the correct name for the RCC is the Vatican Church, not the Catholic Church.
So you have not read the posts here which refer to the fact that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church?

All Orthodox consider our Church the Catholic Church, we just call it the Orthodox Church because thats the name that we are known as. But what I said is that Orthodox who attend a western rite Orthodox church dont consider themselves "western Catholics in communion with Orthodox." They just consider themselves Orthodox like the rest of us.
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« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2010, 09:13:08 PM »

However they don't claim to be RC's in communion with Constantinople like some Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in communion with Rome.
But if they claim to be Western Catholics in communion with Constantinople, why is this not similar to a claim that you are orthodox in communion with Rome?
Roman Catholics claim that their religion is an orthodox one.
Who on earth claimed that one?

Is there an active attempt at Orthodox hierarchs and politicians to tear apart the USCCB or other Western ecclesial communities (whatever the Anglican equivalent of a bishop's conference or synod is) and draw them into Orthodoxy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is exactly what happened to our Orthodox synods. Rather it is groups of disaffected Protestants and occasionally Old Catholics and Roman Catholics and convert either en masse or enter a Western Orthodox parish. That would be the deciding factor, to me at least, as to whether you can call Western Orthodox a form of Orthodox uniatism.

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« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2010, 11:29:45 PM »

What would be wrong with such "reverse uniatism"? The problem with the Eastern Catholics isn't that they use Eastern Rites, it's that they do it as a means to lure Orthodox into heresy.
I could easily say the same thing of the WRO. In fact, I have my opinions about it. But that is not the intent of the Byzantine Catholic Church, nor any other Eastern Rite Catholic Church, to lure Orthodox Christians into our fold. They are simply celebrating the liturgy in their own tradition.

It appears, however, to be that way from the Eastern Orthodox point of view. Again, it's just a point of view.

Appears?  I can state with confidence that more Eastern Catholics become Orthodox than Orthodox become Eastern Catholic.  If anything we are becoming the waystation for dissatisfied Latin Catholics on their way to the Orthodox Church.

When we look at how Eastern Catholic jurisdictions began...
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« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2010, 11:32:53 PM »

Honestly Catechumens don't even "depart" anymore.
Does this mean that Orthodox do not take the liturgy seriously when it is asked that all catechumens depart?

No. I'm not sure if you are trying to infer anything here. But, honestly, for centuries there were no catechumens, but due to the conservative nature of Orthodoxy, the phrase was kept. It is still implemented in many places, especially monasteries, but for pastoral reasons, it is not always employed.
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