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Author Topic: How has becoming Orthodox from Roman Catholic changed you?  (Read 26771 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #180 on: July 27, 2011, 01:37:43 PM »

I have had several Catholic friends who have become atheists, and I think I was heading in that direction until I discovered Orthodoxy.
For that reason, I am very grateful to God.

I found these links to be very interesting.

Dostoyevsky - Origins of Modern Atheism

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/f-dostoyevsky-origins-of-modern-atheism.html

Catholicism and the Rise of Atheism


http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/catholicism-and-rise-of-atheism.html

Atheism - boast of our time

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/11/atheism-boast-of-our-time.html



I think that it is very easy to go from being a devout RC to an atheist, and here's why. Let's say you lived through Vatican ii...you were always told the RCC is the one true church, every priest is an alter Christus (another Christ), and then you see the liturgical and other devastation wrought by Vatican II and you start to think that maybe NO religion is the truth, if the RCC wasn't after all.

The only thing that kept me believing in God was the fact that I saw God in nature, and knew it could not have all just blown into being. I had always believed, both as an Orthodox Jew and later as a Traditional RC, that God made everything ex nihilo (from nothing). I never doubted it, I just doubted which religion was His!

You'd need then to account for the many millions who did not leave the Church yet became stronger in right belief and are willing to remain with the Church as the years after the Council unfold.
"Cultural Catholicism."  I've seen its influence even among the fallen: they still can't conceive of a Church without the pope.

There has never been a General Council that ended where everything was lovely afterwards.  In fact it is axiomatic that any general council raises the wrath of the demonic and the Church is beset, in one form or another,  for generations until the dust settles.
Ecumenical Councils are called when the Church is beset, they don't go out looking for trouble.  In the case of V II, called a "teaching council," it changed much that needed changing while throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I don't think your journey in faith is anywhere near complete...yet.
LOL.  The Eldress EM and her searching of souls and reading of hearts, matched only by the analysis of Dr. EM the psychologist (or do you consider yourself more a psychiatrist?). Of course Xenia's not complete:that's what the word "catechumen" means in her Faith Profile.
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« Reply #181 on: July 27, 2011, 02:11:09 PM »

  In the case of V II, called a "teaching council," it changed much that needed changing while throwing the baby out with the bath water.


Professor Who?... Smiley

Vatican II is hardly yet begun and you have already been able to conclude the final chapters.

The fact that people panic and jump ship is hardly news to Orthodoxy.
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Xenia1918
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« Reply #182 on: July 27, 2011, 02:42:08 PM »

I have had several Catholic friends who have become atheists, and I think I was heading in that direction until I discovered Orthodoxy.
For that reason, I am very grateful to God.

I found these links to be very interesting.

Dostoyevsky - Origins of Modern Atheism

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/f-dostoyevsky-origins-of-modern-atheism.html

Catholicism and the Rise of Atheism


http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/catholicism-and-rise-of-atheism.html

Atheism - boast of our time

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/11/atheism-boast-of-our-time.html



I think that it is very easy to go from being a devout RC to an atheist, and here's why. Let's say you lived through Vatican ii...you were always told the RCC is the one true church, every priest is an alter Christus (another Christ), and then you see the liturgical and other devastation wrought by Vatican II and you start to think that maybe NO religion is the truth, if the RCC wasn't after all.

The only thing that kept me believing in God was the fact that I saw God in nature, and knew it could not have all just blown into being. I had always believed, both as an Orthodox Jew and later as a Traditional RC, that God made everything ex nihilo (from nothing). I never doubted it, I just doubted which religion was His!

You'd need then to account for the many millions who did not leave the Church yet became stronger in right belief and are willing to remain with the Church as the years after the Council unfold.  

There has never been a General Council that ended where everything was lovely afterwards.  In fact it is axiomatic that any general council raises the wrath of the demonic and the Church is beset, in one form or another,  for generations until the dust settles.

I don't think your journey in faith is anywhere near complete...yet.

When I joined the RC Church I was a teenager, and very confused by what was going on in the Church. I didn't have the strength to remain, I recognize that.

If I were to be a practicing RC today, I would be a sedevacantist; I have never accepted the legitimacy of any of the alleged popes since V2. I don't believe the Traditional RCs left the Church; I believe the church left them.
But then I started thinking....if the RCC is so dependent on one man (the Pope) and if he becomes a heretic, then perhaps the real problem began not with V2 but with V1 and the declaration of papal infallibility? Granted, sedevacantists DO believe, most strongly, in the dogma of Papal infallibility and in the office of the Papacy; what they reject is the idea that any of the men since V2 were legitimate popes due to all the ecclesiastical horror they wrought and supported, and so they adopted the view that this is a period of (lengthy!) interregnum.

 I went beyond that and started thinking that perhaps the root problem was the whole dogma of papal infallibility.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 02:47:50 PM by Xenia1918 » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #183 on: July 27, 2011, 03:01:05 PM »

 In the case of V II, called a "teaching council," it changed much that needed changing while throwing the baby out with the bath water.


Professor Who?... Smiley

Vatican II is hardly yet begun and you have already been able to conclude the final chapters.

The fact that people panic and jump ship is hardly news to Orthodoxy.
Was there a point in there somewhere?

Btw, University/seminary where?.... Smiley
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 03:12:02 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #184 on: July 27, 2011, 03:06:23 PM »

I have had several Catholic friends who have become atheists, and I think I was heading in that direction until I discovered Orthodoxy.
For that reason, I am very grateful to God.

I found these links to be very interesting.

Dostoyevsky - Origins of Modern Atheism

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/f-dostoyevsky-origins-of-modern-atheism.html

Catholicism and the Rise of Atheism


http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/catholicism-and-rise-of-atheism.html

Atheism - boast of our time

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/11/atheism-boast-of-our-time.html



I think that it is very easy to go from being a devout RC to an atheist, and here's why. Let's say you lived through Vatican ii...you were always told the RCC is the one true church, every priest is an alter Christus (another Christ), and then you see the liturgical and other devastation wrought by Vatican II and you start to think that maybe NO religion is the truth, if the RCC wasn't after all.

The only thing that kept me believing in God was the fact that I saw God in nature, and knew it could not have all just blown into being. I had always believed, both as an Orthodox Jew and later as a Traditional RC, that God made everything ex nihilo (from nothing). I never doubted it, I just doubted which religion was His!

You'd need then to account for the many millions who did not leave the Church yet became stronger in right belief and are willing to remain with the Church as the years after the Council unfold.  

There has never been a General Council that ended where everything was lovely afterwards.  In fact it is axiomatic that any general council raises the wrath of the demonic and the Church is beset, in one form or another,  for generations until the dust settles.

I don't think your journey in faith is anywhere near complete...yet.

When I joined the RC Church I was a teenager, and very confused by what was going on in the Church. I didn't have the strength to remain, I recognize that.

If I were to be a practicing RC today, I would be a sedevacantist; I have never accepted the legitimacy of any of the alleged popes since V2. I don't believe the Traditional RCs left the Church; I believe the church left them.
But then I started thinking....if the RCC is so dependent on one man (the Pope) and if he becomes a heretic, then perhaps the real problem began not with V2 but with V1 and the declaration of papal infallibility? Granted, sedevacantists DO believe, most strongly, in the dogma of Papal infallibility and in the office of the Papacy; what they reject is the idea that any of the men since V2 were legitimate popes due to all the ecclesiastical horror they wrought and supported, and so they adopted the view that this is a period of (lengthy!) interregnum.

 I went beyond that and started thinking that perhaps the root problem was the whole dogma of papal infallibility.
Yes it's a real quandry for sedevanctists, one which they've never come up with a satisfactory solution (I remember a "bishop" of theirs telling me it was like when we don't know who the bishop of Chicago is (whether it was a reference to the 5 Orthodox bishops, or the OCA see being vacant, I couldn't get him pinned down on).  When I pointed out that the Orthodox Church doesn't define itself as the communion of the bishop of Chicago, nor was he commemorated at the DL over every Orthodox parish of the Catholic Church, and asked who they, as the "Catholic Church" commemorated as Pope, Suprem Pontiff and necessary successor of St. Peter (according to his own theology), he had no answer.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #185 on: September 20, 2011, 09:56:02 PM »

I think that for many people, Orthodoxy is a termination point in their investigations. They have done much research into different religions and have 'painted themselves into a corner' so to speak, by eliminating, one by one, all the competing faiths which they determine to be invalid. So I think for many people, their mindframe is "Orthodoxy or bust". That's my take, anyways.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Thats is my take also but by metaphor was the apex of a pyramid of sorts.  Once you are at the top there is nowhere to go but DOWN! Wink
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« Reply #186 on: November 20, 2011, 12:32:07 AM »

Hello ,

I'm new to this forum , but I was interested in the topic mentioned. I was agnostic before I even considered becoming baptized in a Lutheran Church. I studied many different religions of the world prior to that.  But what sticks out in my mind while I was agnostic in studying all these different religions is  what makes the message of the Gospel unique.

 Not one single religion of the world teaches that God became man in the person of His Son, and  was willing to Sacrifice His Son for the sake of the world. So this stands out in my mind . For my part I had studied and researched different histories and religions and none teach this at all, period.  I thank God that I found the Orthodox Church because over time I see how the world changes always reinventing itself , and yet the Orthodox Church fullfills what the Holy Scriptures say about God being the same , yesterday and forever. Like her head the Orthodox Church remains steadfast in the Faith.

 At the same time I have to confess I also see the reality of sin even in those who are working their salvation in fear and trembling, but that even despite the tragedy of the Fall , God leaves us the means by which to be saved and come to Him no matter what are state is , He is always there waiting. Studying the Orthodoxy hasn't caused me to stop being Orthodox even when I was scandalized by reading how badly St Nectarios was treated by fellow clergy or the deprivations of Fr Aresny in the Russian Gulag. Or even reading Dr Zhivago, God was there.

I think the worst thing is perhaps becoming like an 'Intellectual" like Adolf Von Harnack. He read the Fathers and the writings of the early Church. He  even confirmed what they taught , but refused to convert out of indifferentism!  On the other hand a man like Dostoevsky found God again and came back to the Orthodox Faith. God works in mysterious ways when it comes to the hearts of men.  Men disbelieve God when they become god in their own minds .
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« Reply #187 on: December 04, 2011, 11:43:22 PM »

Well, I am no longer Catholic nor Orthodox, but I will give my experience.

I was born into a Protestant (Methodist, but my mother was born a Catholic).  To make a long story short, I was accepted into the Catholic church on the Easter Vigil of 2001 (I believe) at the age of 15, after completing RCIA and receivng my parents permission.
As a Catholic, I was the most devoted to God compared to any other time of my life, and would consider my spirituality strongly "Franicscan" with a pinch of "Carmel"; I focused more on writings on interior prayer (specifically the writings of John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila) in the place of formal theology (most of the Christological and Trinitarian debates I knew little about until I delved into Orthodoxy).  During the summer I would make it to Daily Mass and during the school year I would go to Eucharistic Adoration after school for about two hours daily.  I recited the Rosary around ten times a day (at least 15 decades before the tabernacle daily), as well as the Chaplet of Divine Mercy once per day and, or course, the Stations of the Cross on Friday.  Every Saturday I would make it to Confession.  If it sounds like I didn't have much of a social life, you guess correctly; but I didn't care too much for a social life at the time since I considered it a waste of time.  Due to my love of Francis of Assisi, and a call to the religious life, I was strongly considering the religious life after high school.  I was in contact with three Franicscan Orders (all reform Orders): the Franciscans Friars of the Immaculata, the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal, and a reform order which broke away from the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal, the Franciscan Friars of teh Primitive Observance (I was strongly considering this Order before converting to Orthodoxy since I felt they most fathly lived out the Rule of Franics as he originally wanted it to be followed).
When I finally was received into the Orthodox church on my 18th birthday, I had to leave a lot of my "Franciscan" practices behind (Eucharistic adoration, daily reception of the Eucharist, etc.) but I felt I made the right choice leaving the Catholic church for Orthodoxy.  To better understand my faith, I joined this website; I have learned much through this forum and the more I learned about Church history and the Christian faith in general, I eventually lost my faith.


I wonder if you are saying your conversion to Orthodoxy is the reason you lost your faith?

I remember being extremely devout as a teenager, too. Not quite to your extent, but religion was my main interest, with the same Franciscan/Carmelite focus as you mention, and I just assumed at some point I'd join a religious order. I never lost my interest, but as I got older, worldly interests began to intrude more. This is not an unusual progression. Unless our childish, literalist faith expands to encompass our growing experience of life, we almost inevitably find it wanting at some point. I'm not suggesting a relativist approach or solution, I'm just saying the simplicity of the "theology" the nuns teach five-year-olds, and that many of us hold on to for many years, doesn't  usually do for adults. I never lost my love of Christ or His Mother. What I lost was my confidence in the institution of the church. I felt I was being given answers as though I were still a five-year-old, and I was pretty sure the priest wasn't satisfied with those answers for himself.

My own solution was to keep my heart open to Christ, no matter how scathing my opinions of the churches that claimed to speak in His name. Eventually, I found my way to a church whose priests were not intimidated by my questioning, and who were willing to admit that much about God is simply unknowable by us small human animals,  in the sense that we "know" the sun rises in the East. And I had reached a point in my own spiritual evolution where I could embrace the experience of God without having to have an exact explanation of its mechanics. My characterization of the Orthodox church may be at odds with what it says about itself. But its emphasis on mystery, and on entering deeply into the experience of the church's mysteries made it possible for me to join the "body of Christ," and to have the spiritual hunger satisfied that I'd always felt.

Good luck, and God bless you. The path of a spiritual seeker is a difficult and often lonely one.
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« Reply #188 on: December 28, 2011, 08:20:58 AM »

Still terrible at quotes, however, Feanor, I don't know where you live but have you looked into Western Rite Orthodoxy? After being catechized in a Greek Church I found a western Antichian parish, we are almost all converts and the liturgy is the mass o  St Gregory with a few changes. Western culture with fully Orthodox beliefs.

I should probably clarify some matters here.

I believe Orthodoxy to be a beautiful, reverent and spiritually-fulfilling member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I don’t have anything against Orthodoxy or Orthodox people, and I admire and adore its liturgical and spiritual traditions.

I “went home to Rome” because that was where I felt more comfortable and where I could be closer to God. In Orthodoxy I felt trapped, strangled and like a stranger. I felt out of place, constantly uncomfortable, and awkward. I couldn’t receive the nourishment which I need, sacramentally or pastorally. I went ‘home’ to Catholicism because it really feels like ‘home,’ and the practices of the Catholic Church happen to suit my spiritual needs far better.

I am happy being home in the Catholic Church. I can once again share my religious and spiritual life with my family and friends. Last night my family and I stayed up late together to watch the canonization of St Mary of the Cross, Australia’s first saint, who was an inspirational woman to all of us. It felt good to be able to share my faith with my family, even in such a small way as that. When I was Orthodox I felt like I had betrayed my own heritage. My grandfathers all fought for this country, and they attended daily Mass and prayed daily rosaries. My grandmother is a devout Catholic, and my sister is becoming more devout and soon wants to undergo her confirmation. I am thrilled that finally I have made peace with my own religious tradition.

When I first discovered Orthodoxy, I ‘bought’ the story hook, line and sinker: “The Catholics seperated themselves from the True Church by inserting their heretical doctrines into the faith, now they have no valid sacraments and their faith is defficient.” I actually believed it, and I was drawn towards the beautiful traditions of Orthodox liturgical and spiritual life. However, as time went on I began to see great signs of holiness and sanctification in other traditions, and I realised that despite the various doctrinal and political schisms which have beset the history of Christianity, the Holy Spirit is not denied or absent from any church. That is what I believe. I know in my heart that the Catholic Church is a completely valid Church with valid Eucharist, and I believe in the importance of Petrine Primacy. However, I wanted to stay with Orthodoxy, because I had fallen in love with its traditions and its mystical spirituality. However, after a while I began to ache for home, I missed being able to share my faith with my family and friends. I was dreading Christmas, when my family would go together to the Catholic Cathedral and I would have to go seperately to an Orthodox Liturgy in Greek, Russian or Arabic, on my own, a stranger in a church full of families celebrating together. That didn’t make me feel happy, it made me feel lonely and isolated.

I still love Orthodoxy, but I also love my own tradition, the Catholic faith, and I am grateful to be at home once again. I now feel far closer to God than I ever have in my life in many ways, and I am growing spiritually, slowly making progress in my battle against sin. Daily Eucharist has helped me in so many ways, amongst many other aspects of Catholic life which have helped me to grow. 

Who knows. Perhaps I might return to Orthodoxy some day. Maybe in a year, maybe in ten years. Maybe never. I am not bitter about Orthodoxy and I have great respect for the EO Church in many ways. It simply wasn't working for me - I was unhappy and isolated. That was not spiritually healthy for me.

I hope that my Orthodox brothers and sisters can understand and respect this, even if they do not agree.
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« Reply #189 on: December 28, 2011, 10:29:05 AM »

Iconodule

When I first started posting here a number of years ago, GiC was still a practicing Orthodox Christian, as was Asteriktos.  I am not sure when GiC lost his faith, but I am sure that I lost my faith just before he did.  There were a number of doubts I continously encountered while a Christian of various sects, and I was never able to find the answers to my questions.
Too name a few at the time:
*How can I know what the will of God is for me in my life?
*How do I reconcile Christian teaching within a secular society?
*Is the Christian God a God of love?  If yes, how do I resolve and justify the actions of God (who is the same yesterday, today, and forever) in the Old Testament with the teachings of Christ in the New Testament (e.g. Christ's willingness to forgive sinners, yet God's command of genocide within the Old Testament)?
*While Orthodox, how do I explain the miracles and revelations of post-schimatic saints which I strongly adhered to while Catholic?  Do I simply reject them, do I ignore them, or do I try to understand them as demonic?
I discussed these issues mulitple times with my Father of Confession, as well as seminarians and priests of Orthodox forums.  I encountered many ideas, some I found more attractive than others (in fact, even though GiC never accepted the OO churches as truly Orthodox, and thus rejected me being an Orthodox Christian, I found many of the ideas he put forth quite attractive) but I could never be 100 percent sure that I was following orthodox thought.
I know many Catholic and Orthodox Christians encourage those in doubt to "trust in the wisdom of Holy Mother Church and the Hierarchs" (though I found it to be funny when an Orthodox Christian would tell me this after I converted to Orthodoxy; if I had trusted in the teachings of Holy Mother Church, I would never have converted to Orthodoxy in the first place).  This type of thinking is too much of a cop out in my opinion, and the only person I could really trust with the salvation of my eternal soul was myself.

So your reason for leaving Christ is because you couldn't find neat and easy answers to your questions. What's the real "cop out" here? Some of these questions are just as well left alone; some of them don't have definitive answers comprehensible to ordinary men; some of them are just idle curiosity borne of an urge to be correct about everything. Trying to find a potted answer to all your questions isn't real spiritual struggle- it's a distraction, a form of escapism. Of course it's easier to find your answers when you cut yourself loose from the Church. When the only authority is yourself, the convenient answers to everything are quick in coming (though they have a funny fluidity to them, according to circumstances). I remember- I was an atheist most of my life.  Eventually, I hope, you'll find that the real burden, the one that carries no reward, is that of unbelief, of closing yourself to spiritual realities and the Truth that is beyond yourself. As an atheist, I continually caught glimpses of these realities, through art, through nature, through friendship, and I found myself painfully closing myself to them because they didn't fit with my "principles". I realized that atheism did nothing for me, except imbue me with a sense of being right about everything, which turned out to be hollow. Reason, cut off from higher spiritual realities, is moldable like a piece of clay. It can create countless, seemingly coherent and foolproof ideologies, according to the whims of the wielder and the passions to which he is a slave. Finding a clear, simple answer to a spiritual question, based on your personal reasoning, doesn't really solve it; it just closes you off from a real understanding of it, which may not be entirely apprehensible to rational faculties.

The part I put in bold is very curious.  I love to read on science from physical science, social science, and psychological sciences, and this is what I found in each, that there is very little in each that can be definitive and comprehensible.  There are many things in Christianity that are a mystery, but so is a life of complete reliance on science and humanism.  It is a catch-22 situation for both the agnostic/athiest and the Christian and other faiths/religions. 
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« Reply #190 on: December 28, 2011, 02:47:47 PM »

Quote
Yes it's a real quandry for sedevanctists, one which they've never come up with a satisfactory solution (I remember a "bishop" of theirs telling me it was like when we don't know who the bishop of Chicago is (whether it was a reference to the 5 Orthodox bishops, or the OCA see being vacant, I couldn't get him pinned down on).  When I pointed out that the Orthodox Church doesn't define itself as the communion of the bishop of Chicago, nor was he commemorated at the DL over every Orthodox parish of the Catholic Church, and asked who they, as the "Catholic Church" commemorated as Pope, Suprem Pontiff and necessary successor of St. Peter (according to his own theology), he had no answer.

You mean you've never heard of Pope Earl Pulvermacher, aka Pope Pius XIII? Or Pope Mark I, whose robes are made by his mother? He lives in the basement of his parents' house, so I guess Antipope isn't as good a gig as it used to be.
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« Reply #191 on: January 02, 2012, 09:48:38 AM »

I have a fast question of any converts from Roman Catholic to Orthodoxy. This may sound funny but here it goes "Did anybody have a dream like no other in any past dreams? It was too real, I had a dream about my conversion I’ve never ever had a dream like that when I was Roman Catholic...  In my dream I was looking and I could see my refection and I was stating I was an Orthodox Christian over and over again. I can never shake that dream it had a very deep affect on me when I converted back about 11 years ago... I just want to know if any person ever had something happen like this to them???
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« Reply #192 on: January 02, 2012, 10:43:55 AM »

Back when I was a heretical Latin I used to be full of legalistic pride and sin, and now that I'm Orthodox I'm a lot more mystical and holy.
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« Reply #193 on: January 02, 2012, 11:07:59 AM »

Back when I was a heretical Latin I used to be full of legalistic pride and sin, and now that I'm Orthodox I'm a lot more mystical and holy.



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« Reply #194 on: January 02, 2012, 11:13:20 AM »

Back when I was a heretical Latin I used to be full of legalistic pride and sin, and now that I'm Orthodox I'm a lot more mystical and holy.





 laugh lol
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« Reply #195 on: January 18, 2012, 10:10:00 PM »

I have a fast question of any converts from Roman Catholic to Orthodoxy. This may sound funny but here it goes "Did anybody have a dream like no other in any past dreams? It was too real, I had a dream about my conversion I’ve never ever had a dream like that when I was Roman Catholic...  In my dream I was looking and I could see my refection and I was stating I was an Orthodox Christian over and over again. I can never shake that dream it had a very deep affect on me when I converted back about 11 years ago... I just want to know if any person ever had something happen like this to them???

Wow.  I first discovered Orthodoxy when I was 14 yrs old but didn't convert until I was 21.  My grandmother, who was a devout Catholic and always served as inspiration to me, died in October '02.  I had a dream that Christmas Eve of being in front of an icon and her telling me 'it's OK'.  I was torn of course, being brought up Catholic and not knowing if I was committing a sin by wanting to become Orthodox.  What gets me about this is that she said those same words the night she had her heart attack.  I was Chrismated in October of '09. 

I like to think most things can easily be explained and have told myself numerous reasons behind what I've just described.  However, I think it was her telling me it was OK to become Orthodox.  Sorry that this doesn't go to how becoming Orthodox has changed me, but I was really intrigued to see that question as it has always stuck with me.
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« Reply #196 on: January 18, 2012, 10:58:39 PM »


Wow.  I first discovered Orthodoxy when I was 14 yrs old but didn't convert until I was 21.  My grandmother, who was a devout Catholic and always served as inspiration to me, died in October '02.  I had a dream that Christmas Eve of being in front of an icon and her telling me 'it's OK'.  I was torn of course, being brought up Catholic and not knowing if I was committing a sin by wanting to become Orthodox.  What gets me about this is that she said those same words the night she had her heart attack. 

She would approve now...


The 'Conversion' of Francis of Assisi

Francis of Assisi is popular for his virtues and is thought of highly by many people in the Orthodox Church. It's not possible, of course, to contemplate including him in divine services of the Orthodox Church, because he belonged to a Christian denomination with teachings which differed from the Truth of Holy Orthodoxy. That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone else.

Many people are unaware of the Miracle of Francis of Assisi which has led many into the saving fold of the Holy Orthodox Church. This occurred, if I recall, in the 1930s or 1940s, but I can't determine the name of the author or the date of the incidents described.

Here is the story as written:

Go to message 13
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« Reply #197 on: January 22, 2012, 01:40:48 AM »

That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone else.

LOL (not at you personally, Irish Hermit) but at the assertion that "we Orthodox" don't judge anyone. I see Orthodox judging all over the place, on all sorts of Catholics, saints and otherwise, all over the Internet.

Maybe the Orthodox have a different definition of "judging" than everyone else ...  Grin
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« Reply #198 on: January 22, 2012, 02:43:51 AM »

That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone else.

LOL (not at you personally, Irish Hermit) but at the assertion that "we Orthodox" don't judge anyone. I see Orthodox judging all over the place, on all sorts of Catholics, saints and otherwise, all over the Internet.

Maybe the Orthodox have a different definition of "judging" than everyone else ...  Grin

Where you been? Smiley
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« Reply #199 on: January 22, 2012, 03:01:03 PM »

That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone else.

LOL (not at you personally, Irish Hermit) but at the assertion that "we Orthodox" don't judge anyone. I see Orthodox judging all over the place, on all sorts of Catholics, saints and otherwise, all over the Internet.

Maybe the Orthodox have a different definition of "judging" than everyone else ...  Grin

LOL...I'm pretty sure Catholics take the cake for casting varying and wide judgement on just about everybody and everything.
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« Reply #200 on: January 22, 2012, 05:37:22 PM »

That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone else.

LOL (not at you personally, Irish Hermit) but at the assertion that "we Orthodox" don't judge anyone. I see Orthodox judging all over the place, on all sorts of Catholics, saints and otherwise, all over the Internet.

Maybe the Orthodox have a different definition of "judging" than everyone else ...  Grin

LOL...I'm pretty sure Catholics take the cake for casting varying and wide judgement on just about everybody and everything.
And there we go with more judging.
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« Reply #201 on: January 22, 2012, 05:46:19 PM »

"You're the most judgmental!"
"No, YOU'RE the most judgmental!"
"No, YOU'RE the most judgmental!"

Sheesh...can we be any more pathetic? No wonder no one listens to Christians anymore. We sound like petty idiots. Everyone is judgmental, but everyone also sees it as the other guy's problem. Enough already.
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« Reply #202 on: January 22, 2012, 07:03:36 PM »

"You're the most judgmental!"
"No, YOU'RE the most judgmental!"
"No, YOU'RE the most judgmental!"

Sheesh...can we be any more pathetic? No wonder no one listens to Christians anymore. We sound like petty idiots. Everyone is judgmental, but everyone also sees it as the other guy's problem. Enough already.

Perhaps a better question is, Who is less ecumenical?

This one works out pretty well for us Catholics ... for example, when Anglicans complain about us denying them communion we can say "Well that's nothing, the Orthodox deny us communion!"

Wink
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« Reply #203 on: January 22, 2012, 07:31:25 PM »

Uh...alright. I'm not in communion with any of you, so it doesn't matter what you do or don't do with each other. I don't think you should be praised for being "more ecumenical" than anyone else, or that anyone should be slighted for being "less ecumenical" than you view your church. Ecumenism is not an end in itself.

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« Reply #204 on: January 22, 2012, 08:05:55 PM »

"You're the most judgmental!"
"No, YOU'RE the most judgmental!"
"No, YOU'RE the most judgmental!"

Sheesh...can we be any more pathetic? No wonder no one listens to Christians anymore. We sound like petty idiots. Everyone is judgmental, but everyone also sees it as the other guy's problem. Enough already.

This is exactly what I'm tired of...everybody is always going on about how "THEY" don't judge but are casting judgement as they are speaking.  People, give it up.  We all judge and we're all sinners; quit pretending to be anything else.

That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone else.

LOL (not at you personally, Irish Hermit) but at the assertion that "we Orthodox" don't judge anyone. I see Orthodox judging all over the place, on all sorts of Catholics, saints and otherwise, all over the Internet.

Maybe the Orthodox have a different definition of "judging" than everyone else ...  Grin

LOL...I'm pretty sure Catholics take the cake for casting varying and wide judgement on just about everybody and everything.
And there we go with more judging.

I wouldn't have to go far back in your posts to see the numerous condemnations you've given to others over the silliest things.  Get over yourself.
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« Reply #205 on: January 22, 2012, 08:18:51 PM »

Uh...alright. I'm not in communion with any of you, so it doesn't matter what you do or don't do with each other. I don't think you should be praised for being "more ecumenical" than anyone else, or that anyone should be slighted for being "less ecumenical" than you view your church. Ecumenism is not an end in itself.

Don't miss this part of my post:

Wink
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« Reply #206 on: January 22, 2012, 09:56:24 PM »

Haha. Okay. Sorry, Peter. Smiley
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« Reply #207 on: January 23, 2012, 11:32:10 AM »

I wouldn't have to go far back in your posts to see the numerous condemnations you've given to others over the silliest things.  Get over yourself.
Just because I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade......
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« Reply #208 on: January 23, 2012, 01:07:26 PM »

I wouldn't have to go far back in your posts to see the numerous condemnations you've given to others over the silliest things.  Get over yourself.
Just because I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade......

There we go with that judging again.... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #209 on: January 23, 2012, 01:07:57 PM »

I wouldn't have to go far back in your posts to see the numerous condemnations you've given to others over the silliest things.  Get over yourself.
Just because I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade......

There we go with that judging again.... Roll Eyes
You just judged me.
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« Reply #210 on: January 23, 2012, 01:09:30 PM »

I wouldn't have to go far back in your posts to see the numerous condemnations you've given to others over the silliest things.  Get over yourself.
Just because I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade......

There we go with that judging again.... Roll Eyes
You just judged me.

Then you judged me and I never pretended that I don't judge from time to time...I'm at least somewhat self-aware.
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« Reply #211 on: January 23, 2012, 01:26:56 PM »

I wouldn't have to go far back in your posts to see the numerous condemnations you've given to others over the silliest things.  Get over yourself.
Just because I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade......

There we go with that judging again.... Roll Eyes
You just judged me.

Then you judged me and I never pretended that I don't judge from time to time...I'm at least somewhat self-aware.
When did I ever say that I never judge? I never said that.
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« Reply #212 on: January 23, 2012, 02:05:35 PM »

Back when I was a heretical Latin I used to be full of legalistic pride and sin, and now that I'm Orthodox I'm a lot more mystical and holy.
 

I was going to say the same thing! I didn't come to Orthodoxy thinking I'd become saintly, it just sort of happened.

LOL
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« Reply #213 on: February 01, 2012, 01:42:43 AM »

I wouldn't have to go far back in your posts to see the numerous condemnations you've given to others over the silliest things.  Get over yourself.
Just because I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade......

There we go with that judging again.... Roll Eyes
You just judged me.

Then you judged me and I never pretended that I don't judge from time to time...I'm at least somewhat self-aware.
When did I ever say that I never judge? I never said that.

Last time I saw a conversation like this I think it was in a sitcom.

...Oops. That may have been judging people.

On a slightly more relevant topic, I've attended both Catholic and Orthodox churches recently, so it's interesting to read these stories.
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« Reply #214 on: February 01, 2012, 09:50:18 AM »

I wouldn't have to go far back in your posts to see the numerous condemnations you've given to others over the silliest things.  Get over yourself.
Just because I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade......

There we go with that judging again.... Roll Eyes
You just judged me.

Then you judged me and I never pretended that I don't judge from time to time...I'm at least somewhat self-aware.
When did I ever say that I never judge? I never said that.

Last time I saw a conversation like this I think it was in a sitcom.

...Oops. That may have been judging people.

On a slightly more relevant topic, I've attended both Catholic and Orthodox churches recently, so it's interesting to read these stories.

Eastern Catholic or Latin Catholic?
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« Reply #215 on: February 01, 2012, 01:19:29 PM »

Back when I was a heretical Latin I used to be full of legalistic pride and sin, and now that I'm Orthodox I'm a lot more mystical and holy.
 

I was going to say the same thing! I didn't come to Orthodoxy thinking I'd become saintly, it just sort of happened.

LOL

OH!!...

I had missed this one earlier!!  I love it!

Good on ya!!

M.
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« Reply #216 on: July 01, 2012, 02:45:44 PM »

The part I put in bold is very curious.  I love to read on science from physical science, social science, and psychological sciences, and this is what I found in each, that there is very little in each that can be definitive and comprehensible.  There are many things in Christianity that are a mystery, but so is a life of complete reliance on science and humanism.  It is a catch-22 situation for both the agnostic/athiest and the Christian and other faiths/religions. 
I like what you have to say here. I was an agnostic/ atheist for years before I began studying the philosophy of science, really philosophy in general.

I feel fortunate since, like Antony Flew, my belief in God came independent of conversion to a specific religion. This has allowed me to maintain my faith even when I immerse myself in a specific religion and then lose faith in it specifically. I am surprised by how often I see people lose faith in God altogether when they lose faith in their specific denomination.
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« Reply #217 on: August 06, 2012, 06:48:25 AM »

I'm not Orthodox yet. I am, however, considering converting. But for now I will remain at my Traditionalist Catholic SSPX chapel.
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« Reply #218 on: August 06, 2012, 09:12:37 AM »

I'm not Orthodox yet. I am, however, considering converting. But for now I will remain at my Traditionalist Catholic SSPX chapel.

Isn't it considered to be schismatic from the bishop of Rome point of view?
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« Reply #219 on: August 06, 2012, 10:23:15 AM »

I'm not Orthodox yet. I am, however, considering converting. But for now I will remain at my Traditionalist Catholic SSPX chapel.

Isn't it considered to be schismatic from the bishop of Rome point of view?

Seems internally schismatic if nothing else.
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« Reply #220 on: August 06, 2012, 12:27:44 PM »

I'm not Orthodox yet. I am, however, considering converting. But for now I will remain at my Traditionalist Catholic SSPX chapel.

Isn't it considered to be schismatic from the bishop of Rome point of view?

AFAIK, nope.
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« Reply #221 on: August 07, 2012, 05:56:18 AM »

The SSPX are being drawn in from the cold by the Vatican
But they are avowedly antagonistic to Vatican 2 and the Novus
Ordo Mass, and so are in spirit if not in letter "schismatic".
So as a former SSPX member told me, you are not encouraged
particularly, by the SSPX hierarchy, to stray too much down into
The local "common or garden" RC church , instead choosing to
Worship in SSPX churches. It's all part of the intrinsic dishonesty
And "turning of a blind eye" which saw me leave the RCC for the
Orthodox Church, after a brief period attending the SSPX Masses.
I personally found the SSPX an oddly "retro" organisation as it
Has, it seems to me arbitrarily, fixed the point in time that they wish the
RCC to return to as 1903 to 1914 when good ole Pope Pius X reigned.
Ignoring the trajectory of error, doctrinal and liturgical changes, which
Have separated the RCC from true Orthodoxy since Rome split away from the
Other 4 Patriarchates in 1054. I hope you come home to Orthodoxy soon,
I found it a most beneficial change for me.
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« Reply #222 on: August 07, 2012, 08:43:34 AM »

The SSPX are being drawn in from the cold by the Vatican
But they are avowedly antagonistic to Vatican 2 and the Novus
Ordo Mass, and so are in spirit if not in letter "schismatic".
So as a former SSPX member told me, you are not encouraged
particularly, by the SSPX hierarchy, to stray too much down into
The local "common or garden" RC church , instead choosing to
Worship in SSPX churches. It's all part of the intrinsic dishonesty
And "turning of a blind eye" which saw me leave the RCC for the
Orthodox Church, after a brief period attending the SSPX Masses.
I personally found the SSPX an oddly "retro" organisation as it
Has, it seems to me arbitrarily, fixed the point in time that they wish the
RCC to return to as 1903 to 1914 when good ole Pope Pius X reigned.
Ignoring the trajectory of error, doctrinal and liturgical changes, which
Have separated the RCC from true Orthodoxy since Rome split away from the
Other 4 Patriarchates in 1054. I hope you come home to Orthodoxy soon,
I found it a most beneficial change for me.

I always got a kick out of groups like SSPX, with their "traditional" Catholicism. Aside from revering a pope who hated everything modern, the reverence for a liturgy that dates from the late 16th century, with subsequent revisions, has always struck me as almost comical. It's not so much about truth as it is about what is familiar.  It's always seemed to me the society would have been better named after Pius IX, since it was the very gentle reforms of Leo XIII that Pius X was reacting against. His election in 1903 is one of those "what-if" events. What if Count Della Chiesa had already been a cardinal? What if they'd elected Cardinal Merry del Val? And of course, the elections of 1922 and 1939 are the other what-ifs, not that the church still had any liberal bishops left. The church of 1939 was kind of like the church now, in the sense that the 17-year reign of Pius XI pretty much succeeded in filling the hierarchy with conservatives, much as the long reign of John Paul II did.
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« Reply #223 on: August 07, 2012, 09:50:11 AM »

The SSPX are being drawn in from the cold by the Vatican
But they are avowedly antagonistic to Vatican 2 and the Novus
Ordo Mass, and so are in spirit if not in letter "schismatic".
So as a former SSPX member told me, you are not encouraged
particularly, by the SSPX hierarchy, to stray too much down into
The local "common or garden" RC church , instead choosing to
Worship in SSPX churches. It's all part of the intrinsic dishonesty
And "turning of a blind eye" which saw me leave the RCC for the
Orthodox Church, after a brief period attending the SSPX Masses.
I personally found the SSPX an oddly "retro" organisation as it
Has, it seems to me arbitrarily, fixed the point in time that they wish the
RCC to return to as 1903 to 1914 when good ole Pope Pius X reigned.
Ignoring the trajectory of error, doctrinal and liturgical changes, which
Have separated the RCC from true Orthodoxy since Rome split away from the
Other 4 Patriarchates in 1054. I hope you come home to Orthodoxy soon,
I found it a most beneficial change for me.

Actually, I think many of the rank-and-file traditionalists don't need to go any further back than the 1950s to be happy. But regardless, I think you're quite right that a lot of Catholic traditionalists are actually more "retro" (or "nostalgic") than truly traditional. (And I'm not just saying that now. I felt that way even when my profile said traditionalist.)
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« Reply #224 on: August 07, 2012, 12:27:35 PM »

This much I will say - the SSPX are closer to the spirit and theology of Orthodoxy - the true church - than most of the Latin schismatic church.

If they are or were schismatic, it was NOT by choice, the traditional latin mass in latin may have ceased to exist without them.
They're motives for avoiding local RC churches are only to protect their families and protect the faith.
I would hope they would elicit a small amount of compassion and understanding even though they are not Orthodox.

There are times when heresies have been promoted in the RC churches of today in a way greater than before 1960.
It could come in various forms, whether in the actions, the words of the homlies, words of the music or pamphlets in the back of the church, they are out there and they are harmful.



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