Author Topic: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism  (Read 2601 times)

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Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« on: April 28, 2017, 03:39:03 PM »
Quote
(Vatican Radio) In a common declaration, signed by Pope Francis and Coptic Pope Tawadros II, Catholics and Copts declare for the first time that they will recognise each other’s sacrament of baptism.

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/04/28/pope_in_egypt_catholics_and_copts_recognise_shared_baptism/1308869

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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 03:39:43 PM »
Quote
(Vatican Radio) In a common declaration, signed by Pope Francis and Coptic Pope Tawadros II, Catholics and Copts declare for the first time that they will recognise each other’s sacrament of baptism.

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/04/28/pope_in_egypt_catholics_and_copts_recognise_shared_baptism/1308869

What's your opinion on this?

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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 04:25:42 PM »
Quote
(Vatican Radio) In a common declaration, signed by Pope Francis and Coptic Pope Tawadros II, Catholics and Copts declare for the first time that they will recognise each other’s sacrament of baptism.

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/04/28/pope_in_egypt_catholics_and_copts_recognise_shared_baptism/1308869

What's your opinion on this?

I'm conflicted.  I can't speak for the Copts, but the Syriac canonical tradition historically treated Roman Catholics the same as Eastern Orthodox (i.e., "Chalcedonians"), and so from that perspective I can see how we might make agreements such as the one above.  On the other hand, a lot has happened to differentiate these two groups IMO, and I think it would be good to revisit the question in a conciliar manner and refrain from making such agreements until we're all on the same page.  But no one seems to think a council is important, even while we rush toward these one-on-one "agreements" with churches outside our communion, so you begin to ask what's really the motive behind these things? 

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 04:35:10 PM »
This is going to be embarrassing for HG Bishop Karas, who just yesterday accused this being a rumor brought up by Facebook gossip.

I also am conflicted.  To "sign an agreement" with Catholics is not the same as the ancient tradition of accommodating for receiving converts to the Church.  So the impression given will be some sort of "Church unity" rather than sacramental pastoral concerns.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 04:36:51 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2017, 04:36:52 PM »
Quote
(Vatican Radio) In a common declaration, signed by Pope Francis and Coptic Pope Tawadros II, Catholics and Copts declare for the first time that they will recognise each other’s sacrament of baptism.

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/04/28/pope_in_egypt_catholics_and_copts_recognise_shared_baptism/1308869

What's your opinion on this?

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Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 04:57:22 PM »
Quote
In a common declaration, signed by Pope Francis and Coptic Pope Tawadros II, Catholics and Copts declare for the first time that they will recognise each other’s sacrament of baptism.

...

In the new common declaration, Francis and Tawadros recall the progress made since then and call for a deepening of their shared roots in faith through common prayer. In particular the statement calls for a common translation of the Lord’s Prayer and a common date for the celebration of Easter.

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/04/28/pope_in_egypt_catholics_and_copts_recognise_shared_baptism/1308869
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2017, 05:07:28 PM »
This is going to be embarrassing for HG Bishop Karas, who just yesterday accused this being a rumor brought up by Facebook gossip.

I also am conflicted.  To "sign an agreement" with Catholics is not the same as the ancient tradition of accommodating for receiving converts to the Church.  So the impression given will be some sort of "Church unity" rather than sacramental pastoral concerns.

But isn't that what the baptism part is about, receiving converts? Am I understanding it correctly in saying that, up till now, converts from one to the other church were baptized? I'm also unsure what to make of this, or what it's speaking of:

Quote
Most of the relations which existed in the early centuries between the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church have continued to the present day in spite of divisions...

Offline Antonis

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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2017, 05:10:06 PM »
Just realized I was beaten to this. Apologies!
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2017, 05:32:43 PM »
This is going to be embarrassing for HG Bishop Karas, who just yesterday accused this being a rumor brought up by Facebook gossip.

Wow.  That really sucks.  So even His Holiness Pope Tawadros' Exarch and official representative in North America was blindsided by this?

The fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants way we seem to be doing things lately - including taking monumental steps like this - is a bit jarring to say the least.  :(

I also am conflicted.  To "sign an agreement" with Catholics is not the same as the ancient tradition of accommodating for receiving converts to the Church.  So the impression given will be some sort of "Church unity" rather than sacramental pastoral concerns.

+1

I feel the exact same way.

I suppose the Ethiopians and Eritreans are the only Sister Churches that would still rebaptize Catholics at this point.
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2017, 05:57:44 PM »
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, right?

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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2017, 06:02:10 PM »
This is going to be embarrassing for HG Bishop Karas, who just yesterday accused this being a rumor brought up by Facebook gossip.

I also am conflicted.  To "sign an agreement" with Catholics is not the same as the ancient tradition of accommodating for receiving converts to the Church.  So the impression given will be some sort of "Church unity" rather than sacramental pastoral concerns.

But isn't that what the baptism part is about, receiving converts? Am I understanding it correctly in saying that, up till now, converts from one to the other church were baptized? I'm also unsure what to make of this, or what it's speaking of:

Quote
Most of the relations which existed in the early centuries between the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church have continued to the present day in spite of divisions...

When the ecumenical council of Constantinople 381 produced a canon that said we should receive Arians by Chrismation, they did not make meetings and agreements with Arian bishops to not rebaptize one another.  When Pope Timothy II said to receive Chalcedonians and Nestorians by statement of faith, he didn't do so with brotherly meetings with Roman and Persian bishops as if to promise them they wouldn't be rechrismated or reordained..

But when you are signing an affectionate agreement on the recognition of one another's baptism, then the message I am getting is, I can go take communion at a Roman Catholic Church, as if you are doing a favor not to an individual convert, but to the WHOLE institution.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 06:05:20 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2017, 07:01:58 PM »
This is going to be embarrassing for HG Bishop Karas, who just yesterday accused this being a rumor brought up by Facebook gossip.

I also am conflicted.  To "sign an agreement" with Catholics is not the same as the ancient tradition of accommodating for receiving converts to the Church.  So the impression given will be some sort of "Church unity" rather than sacramental pastoral concerns.

But isn't that what the baptism part is about, receiving converts? Am I understanding it correctly in saying that, up till now, converts from one to the other church were baptized? I'm also unsure what to make of this, or what it's speaking of:

Quote
Most of the relations which existed in the early centuries between the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church have continued to the present day in spite of divisions...

When the ecumenical council of Constantinople 381 produced a canon that said we should receive Arians by Chrismation, they did not make meetings and agreements with Arian bishops to not rebaptize one another.  When Pope Timothy II said to receive Chalcedonians and Nestorians by statement of faith, he didn't do so with brotherly meetings with Roman and Persian bishops as if to promise them they wouldn't be rechrismated or reordained..

But when you are signing an affectionate agreement on the recognition of one another's baptism, then the message I am getting is, I can go take communion at a Roman Catholic Church, as if you are doing a favor not to an individual convert, but to the WHOLE institution.
I can see why that might be the impression given by the headline, but the text of the document says something different. Point no. 7 starts

"7.    As we journey towards the blessed day when we will at last gather at the same Eucharistic table....."

i.e. the document acknowledges that the RCC and Coptic Church are not yet in Eucharistic communion.

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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2017, 07:22:15 PM »


I'm conflicted.  I can't speak for the Copts, but the Syriac canonical tradition historically treated Roman Catholics the same as Eastern Orthodox (i.e., "Chalcedonians"), and so from that perspective I can see how we might make agreements such as the one above.  On the other hand, a lot has happened to differentiate these two groups IMO, and I think it would be good to revisit the question in a conciliar manner and refrain from making such agreements until we're all on the same page. But no one seems to think a council is important, even while we rush toward these one-on-one "agreements" with churches outside our communion
I understand what you mean. IIRC the Copts objected to the Syriac Church dialoging with Nestorians, saying that any dialogue has to be made by OOs united as one front, and then consequently the Syriacs halted their dialogue with the Nestorians.

I am OK with Copts deciding to recognize Catholic baptisms if they want to, I just think that they should follow one rule and allow OO churches like the Syriacs to have interchurch dialogues with Nestorians if they want to.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 07:23:49 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 07:31:09 PM »
This is going to be embarrassing for HG Bishop Karas, who just yesterday accused this being a rumor brought up by Facebook gossip.

I also am conflicted.  To "sign an agreement" with Catholics is not the same as the ancient tradition of accommodating for receiving converts to the Church.  So the impression given will be some sort of "Church unity" rather than sacramental pastoral concerns.

But isn't that what the baptism part is about, receiving converts? Am I understanding it correctly in saying that, up till now, converts from one to the other church were baptized? I'm also unsure what to make of this, or what it's speaking of:

Quote
Most of the relations which existed in the early centuries between the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church have continued to the present day in spite of divisions...

When the ecumenical council of Constantinople 381 produced a canon that said we should receive Arians by Chrismation, they did not make meetings and agreements with Arian bishops to not rebaptize one another.  When Pope Timothy II said to receive Chalcedonians and Nestorians by statement of faith, he didn't do so with brotherly meetings with Roman and Persian bishops as if to promise them they wouldn't be rechrismated or reordained..

But when you are signing an affectionate agreement on the recognition of one another's baptism, then the message I am getting is, I can go take communion at a Roman Catholic Church, as if you are doing a favor not to an individual convert, but to the WHOLE institution.
I can see why that might be the impression given by the headline, but the text of the document says something different. Point no. 7 starts

"7.    As we journey towards the blessed day when we will at last gather at the same Eucharistic table....."

i.e. the document acknowledges that the RCC and Coptic Church are not yet in Eucharistic communion.
It's incongruous to recognize baptism and yet not be in communion. It makes no sense.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 07:31:50 PM by Antonis »
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2017, 07:31:18 PM »


I'm conflicted.  I can't speak for the Copts, but the Syriac canonical tradition historically treated Roman Catholics the same as Eastern Orthodox (i.e., "Chalcedonians"), and so from that perspective I can see how we might make agreements such as the one above.  On the other hand, a lot has happened to differentiate these two groups IMO, and I think it would be good to revisit the question in a conciliar manner and refrain from making such agreements until we're all on the same page. But no one seems to think a council is important, even while we rush toward these one-on-one "agreements" with churches outside our communion
I understand what you mean. IIRC the Copts objected to the Syriac Church dialoging with Nestorians, saying that any dialogue has to be made by OOs united as one front, and then consequently the Syriacs halted their dialogue with the Nestorians.

I am OK with Copts deciding to recognize Catholic baptisms if they want to, I just think that they should follow one rule and allow OO churches like the Syriacs to have interchurch dialogues with Nestorians if they want to.

The MECC shenanigans have nothing to do with anything I said.  There's no need to introduce it here. 

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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2017, 07:49:07 PM »
This is going to be embarrassing for HG Bishop Karas, who just yesterday accused this being a rumor brought up by Facebook gossip.

I also am conflicted.  To "sign an agreement" with Catholics is not the same as the ancient tradition of accommodating for receiving converts to the Church.  So the impression given will be some sort of "Church unity" rather than sacramental pastoral concerns.

But isn't that what the baptism part is about, receiving converts? Am I understanding it correctly in saying that, up till now, converts from one to the other church were baptized? I'm also unsure what to make of this, or what it's speaking of:

Quote
Most of the relations which existed in the early centuries between the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church have continued to the present day in spite of divisions...

When the ecumenical council of Constantinople 381 produced a canon that said we should receive Arians by Chrismation, they did not make meetings and agreements with Arian bishops to not rebaptize one another.  When Pope Timothy II said to receive Chalcedonians and Nestorians by statement of faith, he didn't do so with brotherly meetings with Roman and Persian bishops as if to promise them they wouldn't be rechrismated or reordained..

But when you are signing an affectionate agreement on the recognition of one another's baptism, then the message I am getting is, I can go take communion at a Roman Catholic Church, as if you are doing a favor not to an individual convert, but to the WHOLE institution.

You're right.  And sadly, the people in our Church who want to be in communion with the Catholics tomorrow are taking it like that.  His Holiness seems to many to prioritize unity with the Catholics over unity with the Eastern Orthodox.

"7.    As we journey towards the blessed day when we will at last gather at the same Eucharistic table....."

i.e. the document acknowledges that the RCC and Coptic Church are not yet in Eucharistic communion.

Yet it seems more hopeful than is realistic or indeed healthy that this will be occurring soon.  I sincerely hope that more conservative elements in the Holy Synod will reign this kind of thing in.  Which raises another question: what role did the Coptic Holy Synod play in this decision?  Our Pope cannot act unilaterally, but my impression was that many on the Synod were at least as conservative as H.G. Anba Karas on the subject.

This is going to be embarrassing for HG Bishop Karas, who just yesterday accused this being a rumor brought up by Facebook gossip.

I also am conflicted.  To "sign an agreement" with Catholics is not the same as the ancient tradition of accommodating for receiving converts to the Church.  So the impression given will be some sort of "Church unity" rather than sacramental pastoral concerns.

But isn't that what the baptism part is about, receiving converts? Am I understanding it correctly in saying that, up till now, converts from one to the other church were baptized? I'm also unsure what to make of this, or what it's speaking of:

Quote
Most of the relations which existed in the early centuries between the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church have continued to the present day in spite of divisions...

When the ecumenical council of Constantinople 381 produced a canon that said we should receive Arians by Chrismation, they did not make meetings and agreements with Arian bishops to not rebaptize one another.  When Pope Timothy II said to receive Chalcedonians and Nestorians by statement of faith, he didn't do so with brotherly meetings with Roman and Persian bishops as if to promise them they wouldn't be rechrismated or reordained..

But when you are signing an affectionate agreement on the recognition of one another's baptism, then the message I am getting is, I can go take communion at a Roman Catholic Church, as if you are doing a favor not to an individual convert, but to the WHOLE institution.
I can see why that might be the impression given by the headline, but the text of the document says something different. Point no. 7 starts

"7.    As we journey towards the blessed day when we will at last gather at the same Eucharistic table....."

i.e. the document acknowledges that the RCC and Coptic Church are not yet in Eucharistic communion.
It's incongruous to recognize baptism and yet not be in communion. It makes no sense.

It does send a dangerous message.  When the Copts agreed to stop rebaptizing EOs it was on the basis of the notion that though presently separated we share the same Orthodox and Apostolic Faith.  I truly hope that no bishop in the Coptic Church believes this is true as it pertains to the Catholics.



I'm conflicted.  I can't speak for the Copts, but the Syriac canonical tradition historically treated Roman Catholics the same as Eastern Orthodox (i.e., "Chalcedonians"), and so from that perspective I can see how we might make agreements such as the one above.  On the other hand, a lot has happened to differentiate these two groups IMO, and I think it would be good to revisit the question in a conciliar manner and refrain from making such agreements until we're all on the same page. But no one seems to think a council is important, even while we rush toward these one-on-one "agreements" with churches outside our communion
I understand what you mean. IIRC the Copts objected to the Syriac Church dialoging with Nestorians, saying that any dialogue has to be made by OOs united as one front, and then consequently the Syriacs halted their dialogue with the Nestorians.

I am OK with Copts deciding to recognize Catholic baptisms if they want to, I just think that they should follow one rule and allow OO churches like the Syriacs to have interchurch dialogues with Nestorians if they want to.

The MECC shenanigans have nothing to do with anything I said.  There's no need to introduce it here.

True that.  We're already divided as a communion on this issue anyway.  Still, I wish we would begin to truly speak with one voice on ecumenical matters.  It is depressing to think that the Eritrean and Ethiopian Churches are becoming outliers as it pertains to the issue of unity with the Catholics.
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2017, 10:50:32 AM »
If I'm understanding HG Bp Youssef correctly, then from the Coptic perspective this agreement is not about recognition of RC baptism so much as it is about a commitment to apply economy vs strictness in receiving baptised RCs who convert. 

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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2017, 01:54:02 PM »
Even if, in the context of the "agreement" as a sentiment of joyous journey towards unity, it still becomes a strange "agreement".
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2017, 03:35:10 PM »
This is going to be embarrassing for HG Bishop Karas, who just yesterday accused this being a rumor brought up by Facebook gossip.

I also am conflicted.  To "sign an agreement" with Catholics is not the same as the ancient tradition of accommodating for receiving converts to the Church.  So the impression given will be some sort of "Church unity" rather than sacramental pastoral concerns.

But isn't that what the baptism part is about, receiving converts? Am I understanding it correctly in saying that, up till now, converts from one to the other church were baptized? I'm also unsure what to make of this, or what it's speaking of:

Quote
Most of the relations which existed in the early centuries between the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church have continued to the present day in spite of divisions...

When the ecumenical council of Constantinople 381 produced a canon that said we should receive Arians by Chrismation, they did not make meetings and agreements with Arian bishops to not rebaptize one another.  When Pope Timothy II said to receive Chalcedonians and Nestorians by statement of faith, he didn't do so with brotherly meetings with Roman and Persian bishops as if to promise them they wouldn't be rechrismated or reordained..

But when you are signing an affectionate agreement on the recognition of one another's baptism, then the message I am getting is, I can go take communion at a Roman Catholic Church, as if you are doing a favor not to an individual convert, but to the WHOLE institution.
I can see why that might be the impression given by the headline, but the text of the document says something different. Point no. 7 starts

"7.    As we journey towards the blessed day when we will at last gather at the same Eucharistic table....."

i.e. the document acknowledges that the RCC and Coptic Church are not yet in Eucharistic communion.
It's incongruous to recognize baptism and yet not be in communion. It makes no sense.

Recognize in an official sort of "corporate policy" agreed statement? Or recognize, at least tacitly, by not re-baptizing converts?
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2017, 03:40:08 PM »
Interesting.
This is something cute and innocent.

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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2017, 04:47:00 PM »
If I'm understanding HG Bp Youssef correctly, then from the Coptic perspective this agreement is not about recognition of RC baptism so much as it is about a commitment to apply economy vs strictness in receiving baptised RCs who convert.

I just read all the comments.  HGBY seems to say that the way to interpret this is that we "seek" to reach the goal of not rebaptizing one another, but this is not yet, since we are not "one faith".  In other words, as of now, even after this meeting, Coptic Orthodox will still rebaptize those Catholics who want to be received into the Coptic Church.
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2017, 07:35:27 PM »
This is going to be embarrassing for HG Bishop Karas, who just yesterday accused this being a rumor brought up by Facebook gossip.

I also am conflicted.  To "sign an agreement" with Catholics is not the same as the ancient tradition of accommodating for receiving converts to the Church.  So the impression given will be some sort of "Church unity" rather than sacramental pastoral concerns.

But isn't that what the baptism part is about, receiving converts? Am I understanding it correctly in saying that, up till now, converts from one to the other church were baptized? I'm also unsure what to make of this, or what it's speaking of:

Quote
Most of the relations which existed in the early centuries between the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church have continued to the present day in spite of divisions...

When the ecumenical council of Constantinople 381 produced a canon that said we should receive Arians by Chrismation, they did not make meetings and agreements with Arian bishops to not rebaptize one another.  When Pope Timothy II said to receive Chalcedonians and Nestorians by statement of faith, he didn't do so with brotherly meetings with Roman and Persian bishops as if to promise them they wouldn't be rechrismated or reordained..

But when you are signing an affectionate agreement on the recognition of one another's baptism, then the message I am getting is, I can go take communion at a Roman Catholic Church, as if you are doing a favor not to an individual convert, but to the WHOLE institution.
I can see why that might be the impression given by the headline, but the text of the document says something different. Point no. 7 starts

"7.    As we journey towards the blessed day when we will at last gather at the same Eucharistic table....."

i.e. the document acknowledges that the RCC and Coptic Church are not yet in Eucharistic communion.
It's incongruous to recognize baptism and yet not be in communion. It makes no sense.

Recognize in an official sort of "corporate policy" agreed statement? Or recognize, at least tacitly, by not re-baptizing converts?
I think I don't understand your meaning, so I'll clarify myself and hopefully that will answer your question.

I have two major issues:

Saying that Catholics and Copts recognize a "shared baptism" (a common groundwork laid by ecumenists) is to say that they are the same baptism. Baptism is death into Christ's Body, the Church. If we truly believe this, recognition of a "shared baptism" is recognition that both the Catholic and Coptic communions compose the same Church. It makes no sense whatsoever to recognize a "shared baptism" and remain out of communion with each other. Vatican II sophists don't have a problem with it for a time at least, and they created out of thin air a whole theology to support it,  but it is unorthodox.

The better possibility is that this is merely a statement that economia will be used in reception of converts. Even so, my issue with this is that such decisions ought to be made for legitimate theological reasons, not as diplomatic gestures of "goodwill"--not to mention the fact that they ought to be conciliar, not enacted unilaterally by a primate. Pope Tawadros ought to be censured by his synod if this is the case.


 

« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 07:39:16 PM by Antonis »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2017, 07:38:13 PM »
If I'm understanding HG Bp Youssef correctly, then from the Coptic perspective this agreement is not about recognition of RC baptism so much as it is about a commitment to apply economy vs strictness in receiving baptised RCs who convert.

I just read all the comments.  HGBY seems to say that the way to interpret this is that we "seek" to reach the goal of not rebaptizing one another, but this is not yet, since we are not "one faith".  In other words, as of now, even after this meeting, Coptic Orthodox will still rebaptize those Catholics who want to be received into the Coptic Church.
That seems a little silly. It would be no different than a statement expressing a positive hope of eventual communion. Why would baptism be singled out?
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2017, 07:50:48 PM »
I'm positive that the Romans already "accepted" Coptic baptisms. Such is the modern Roman ecclesiology. So this would be a rather one-sided concession.
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2017, 07:55:03 PM »
If I'm understanding HG Bp Youssef correctly, then from the Coptic perspective this agreement is not about recognition of RC baptism so much as it is about a commitment to apply economy vs strictness in receiving baptised RCs who convert.

I just read all the comments.  HGBY seems to say that the way to interpret this is that we "seek" to reach the goal of not rebaptizing one another, but this is not yet, since we are not "one faith".  In other words, as of now, even after this meeting, Coptic Orthodox will still rebaptize those Catholics who want to be received into the Coptic Church.
That seems a little silly. It would be no different than a statement expressing a positive hope of eventual communion. Why would baptism be singled out?

I agree!  I also think HGBY's [re]interpretation is silly, especially given those who can read Arabic has also reached confused interpretations no different from the English.  Therefore, this is an honest and reliable English translation and should not be suspect.
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2017, 09:06:05 PM »
I just read all the comments.  HGBY seems to say that the way to interpret this is that we "seek" to reach the goal of not rebaptizing one another, but this is not yet, since we are not "one faith".  In other words, as of now, even after this meeting, Coptic Orthodox will still rebaptize those Catholics who want to be received into the Coptic Church.
It would be no different than a statement expressing a positive hope of eventual communion. Why would baptism be singled out?

I agree!  I also think HGBY's [re]interpretation is silly, especially given those who can read Arabic has also reached confused interpretations no different from the English.  Therefore, this is an honest and reliable English translation and should not be suspect.


I am confused. Could he conceivably have read it in Arabic as a positive hope of eventual baptism when he and the Catholics formulated the agreement?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 09:06:43 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2017, 09:06:31 PM »
Yes
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2017, 11:20:10 PM »
What happened was the draft agreement affirmed "we will not baptise one another", but there was such an uproar when details leaked to the Synod through the media (it was meant to be a surprise), that they watered it down to something that could be interpreted as no different to a future aspiration for unity.
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2017, 05:35:08 PM »
Quote
Before Pope Francis's visit to Egypt on Friday, controversy erupted among members of the Coptic Orthodox Church – who make up the majority of Egypt's 10 percent Christian population – over an alleged version of the agreement that circulated among the community that unambiguously stated that each church would accept members from the other without a re-baptism.

Pope Tawadros and the Church Holy Council announced in statement shared via Bishop Rafael that despite rumours and “false statements,” the final declaration would include the words "sincerely seek," indicating it would not mandate a blanket acceptance of new members without re-baptism.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/266901/Egypt/Politics-/Popes-Francis-and-Tawadros-baptism-declaration-Pos.aspx


The article continues that the impetus behind this agreement was intermarriage between Catholics and Orthodox, and that the original draft did not have the "seek to", which means that the original intention may have been definitive as qawe said.

Here's an interview (only in Arabic) with HH Pope Tawadros who does say that by pastoral accommodation, in a case by case basis, a Catholic wishing to marry a Coptic Orthodox, if the person was baptized, they would only chrismate the person:

https://youtu.be/V7AHzYXQvZ4
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Re: Pope in Egypt: Catholics and Copts recognise shared baptism
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2017, 10:18:05 PM »
If I'm understanding HG Bp Youssef correctly, then from the Coptic perspective this agreement is not about recognition of RC baptism so much as it is about a commitment to apply economy vs strictness in receiving baptised RCs who convert.

That seems to be His Grace's reading.  I'm not sure if that represents His Holiness' view.

If I'm understanding HG Bp Youssef correctly, then from the Coptic perspective this agreement is not about recognition of RC baptism so much as it is about a commitment to apply economy vs strictness in receiving baptised RCs who convert.

I just read all the comments.  HGBY seems to say that the way to interpret this is that we "seek" to reach the goal of not rebaptizing one another, but this is not yet, since we are not "one faith".  In other words, as of now, even after this meeting, Coptic Orthodox will still rebaptize those Catholics who want to be received into the Coptic Church.

I love what His Grace is saying (I usually do) but is that really congruent with the declaration made by His Holiness?

I have two major issues:

Saying that Catholics and Copts recognize a "shared baptism" (a common groundwork laid by ecumenists) is to say that they are the same baptism. Baptism is death into Christ's Body, the Church. If we truly believe this, recognition of a "shared baptism" is recognition that both the Catholic and Coptic communions compose the same Church. It makes no sense whatsoever to recognize a "shared baptism" and remain out of communion with each other. Vatican II sophists don't have a problem with it for a time at least, and they created out of thin air a whole theology to support it,  but it is unorthodox.

The better possibility is that this is merely a statement that economia will be used in reception of converts. Even so, my issue with this is that such decisions ought to be made for legitimate theological reasons, not as diplomatic gestures of "goodwill"--not to mention the fact that they ought to be conciliar, not enacted unilaterally by a primate. Pope Tawadros ought to be censured by his synod if this is the case.

+1

I'm positive that the Romans already "accepted" Coptic baptisms. Such is the modern Roman ecclesiology. So this would be a rather one-sided concession.

Indeed it would.

What happened was the draft agreement affirmed "we will not baptise one another", but there was such an uproar when details leaked to the Synod through the media (it was meant to be a surprise), that they watered it down to something that could be interpreted as no different to a future aspiration for unity.

Leaked to the Synod through the media?  Meant to be a surprise?  Wow.  Does our Pope really operate this way?  Further, my understanding was that His Holiness' power was as limited as that of any Orthodox Patriarch and that he would not be empowered to make such a decision apart from the Synod.  Am I wrong?

Quote
Before Pope Francis's visit to Egypt on Friday, controversy erupted among members of the Coptic Orthodox Church – who make up the majority of Egypt's 10 percent Christian population – over an alleged version of the agreement that circulated among the community that unambiguously stated that each church would accept members from the other without a re-baptism.

Pope Tawadros and the Church Holy Council announced in statement shared via Bishop Rafael that despite rumours and “false statements,” the final declaration would include the words "sincerely seek," indicating it would not mandate a blanket acceptance of new members without re-baptism.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/266901/Egypt/Politics-/Popes-Francis-and-Tawadros-baptism-declaration-Pos.aspx


The article continues that the impetus behind this agreement was intermarriage between Catholics and Orthodox, and that the original draft did not have the "seek to", which means that the original intention may have been definitive as qawe said.

Here's an interview (only in Arabic) with HH Pope Tawadros who does say that by pastoral accommodation, in a case by case basis, a Catholic wishing to marry a Coptic Orthodox, if the person was baptized, they would only chrismate the person:

https://youtu.be/V7AHzYXQvZ4

Is His Holiness just trying to walk things back now, or was there sincerely a misinterpretation of his original intentions?
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