Author Topic: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism  (Read 69759 times)

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #270 on: December 05, 2014, 06:17:08 PM »
opps, accidental post
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 06:19:12 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #271 on: December 05, 2014, 07:16:38 PM »
Study some more.  Every Eastern Catholic Church, save the Syro-Malabars and Ethiopians, began at the iniative of one or more bishops of the particular Orthodox Church involved.
usually with the prodding of the secular overlords.
Actually usually inspite of the secular overlords opposition.  This is especially true of those with Ottoman overlords.
The Ottomans were the exception, and they only involved your Melkites. That leaves a couple dozen "sui juris" to explain, including the largest, your UGCC, is the sole product of the Vatican's secular minions (read it's Met. Sheptytskyi's plans for Ukraine in a Austria-Hungary victory in WWI.  Nothing  has changed).
You are forgetting the Chaldeans, Armenians, Syriacs, and Copts.  Though the first three were split between the Ottomans and Persians.  We will have to disagree about the UGCC.  The Poles plans were to Polonize the Ukrainins and convert them to Latin Catholics.  The union prevented that.
LOL. Hardly. Met. Sheptytskyi himself was baptized a Latin Pole.

I haven't forgotten anyone. The Armenians in Poland, for instance, led their kin astray in submitting to the Vatican, starting in Lwow-or do you say Lemberg?

We don't have to disagree about the UGCC. You can face the truth.
You prove my point.  Metropolitan Andrej was from a polonized noble family.  Without the resistance of the UGCC bishops the peasants would have been polonized as well.

You seem to have forgotten: Patriarch Shimun VIII (1st Chaldean Catholic Patriarch) martyred by the Ottomans, Patriarch Ignatius Gregory Peter VI (2nd Syriac Catholic Patriarch) martyred by the Ottomans, Patriarch Michael (Syriac Catholic) imprisoned by Ottomans, Patriarch Abraham Petros (1st Armenian Catholic Patriarch) imprisoned by Ottomans.  
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 07:36:19 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #272 on: December 06, 2014, 10:35:11 AM »
Study some more.  Every Eastern Catholic Church, save the Syro-Malabars and Ethiopians, began at the iniative of one or more bishops of the particular Orthodox Church involved.
usually with the prodding of the secular overlords.
Actually usually inspite of the secular overlords opposition.  This is especially true of those with Ottoman overlords.
The Ottomans were the exception, and they only involved your Melkites. That leaves a couple dozen "sui juris" to explain, including the largest, your UGCC, is the sole product of the Vatican's secular minions (read it's Met. Sheptytskyi's plans for Ukraine in a Austria-Hungary victory in WWI.  Nothing  has changed).
You are forgetting the Chaldeans, Armenians, Syriacs, and Copts.  Though the first three were split between the Ottomans and Persians.  We will have to disagree about the UGCC.  The Poles plans were to Polonize the Ukrainins and convert them to Latin Catholics.  The union prevented that.
LOL. Hardly. Met. Sheptytskyi himself was baptized a Latin Pole.

I haven't forgotten anyone. The Armenians in Poland, for instance, led their kin astray in submitting to the Vatican, starting in Lwow-or do you say Lemberg?

We don't have to disagree about the UGCC. You can face the truth.
You prove my point.  Metropolitan Andrej was from a polonized noble family.  Without the resistance of the UGCC bishops the peasants would have been polonized as well.
Fortunately, the Cossaks proved my point long ago.

At the time the Diocese of L'viv still clung to Orthodoxy-a fact admitted by UGCC mythology in its claim (perhaps true) that Bishop Joseph Czumlanski apostacized in 1677, but did not announce his submission to the Vatican until 1700. So too Przemyśl further West (even today west of the Poland-Ukraine border) and Lutsk further North.  The bishops sold out, not the peasants. In fact, the Great Sejm talks of the  pervasive problem that chapels set up by the common folk without the permission of the "United" (i.e. in submission to the Vatican) bishops were being served by iterant priests sent by the Orthodox Russian bishops.
You seem to have forgotten: Patriarch Shimun VIII (1st Chaldean Catholic Patriarch) martyred by the Ottomans, Patriarch Ignatius Gregory Peter VI (2nd Syriac Catholic Patriarch) martyred by the Ottomans, Patriarch Michael (Syriac Catholic) imprisoned by Ottomans, Patriarch Abraham Petros (1st Armenian Catholic Patriarch) imprisoned by Ottomans.  
no, again, I haven't forgotten a thing. HINT: EP St. Cyril Lucaris, strangled by the Ottomans at the urging of the Jesuits, having been deposed at the instigation of the Bourbon and Habsburg ambassadors several times.

Btw, I do not claim to speak for the Nestorians.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 10:43:38 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Papist

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #273 on: December 06, 2014, 11:30:11 AM »
Time to post maps
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Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #274 on: December 06, 2014, 07:35:13 PM »
I agree with Podkarpatska.  Alas, I have nothing much to add, except to say that the relevant dates here are neither 1787-1792 (those years are a joke, for Galicia, the heart of Greek Catholicism, was already out of Poland for 15 years by then!) nor 1677, but 1375.  The year 1375, when the Polish conquerors, with the Pope's blessing, installed a Latin bishop in Przemysl, demonstrates clearly the Latin intention in connection with the Ruthenian Voivodeship.  One may also consider what happened in the 1400s and 1500s to realize that the number of parishes that entered the Union of Brest in 1596 was considerably smaller than the number of Ruthenian parishes which had existed ca. 1400.  This is because a good number of those Ruthenian parishes had already been Latinized and/or Polonized, and this continued into the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.  See the work of Fr. Ioann Polianskyj.  I know of several places in Poland today where the inhabitants are actually Polonized Ukrainians, and have been for centuries.  The Union of Brest was motivated by a desire for the Orthodox bishops to secure political advantages, of course, but also by a desire to preserve the rite against these encroaching Latinizations, which had been relentless.  That the brotherhoods in the cities didn't go along with the program was of course problematic for all concerned.  But in the villages, most peasants were oblivious.  The stories of them securing Russian priests are true.  But villages often flip-flopped back and forth - they secured priests from any handy source.  They didn't much care whether they came from Russia or Poland, because the villagers couldn't much tell the difference anyway.

The last Orthodox monastery in Galicia, the Maniava skete, was closed in 1785.  There was one Orthodox parish that continued to function in L'viv throughout the Austrian period, but it served as a diplomatic outpost more than anything.  Most villagers did not even know that they had become Greek Catholic for centuries, nor did many know what that meant.  Certainly most in the villages, which was the bulk of society, did not know until after the revision of the service books following the Synod of Zamosc in 1720.  For all intents and purposes, following the political determinations of their bishops, the Orthodox Ruthenians had largely gone into exile under the aegis of the Greek Catholic Church.  All of the Ruthenian Voivodeship would have participated in this fate had not Russia encroached on Polish territory throughout the 17th and 18th centuries.  As late as 1768 there were still many Greek Catholics on the banks of the Dnipro River in Central Ukraine.  It was in that year, of course, that the Kolyvshchyna happened, when the Orthodox rose up against their Polish overlords and tragically murdered many of their Greek Catholic brethren.  This is a sad chapter in Ukrainian history.

As of the late 19th century, the Russophile parties in Austria began to agitate for a return to Orthodoxy and/or a reunion with Russia.  They were tolerated at first by Austria but then repressed when alliances changed and Russia became an adversary of Austria.  It was these priests, having gone over to the Russian Empire at Kholm, who formed the backbone of the effort which abolished Greek Catholicism in the Kholm Eparchy in 1875 and forcibly reunited it with Orthodoxy.  There were also members of the Russophile party which wished to join with Russia and remain Greek Catholic.  The Ukrainophile parties were split between those who wanted to remain Greek Catholic and others who were simply anti-clerical and wished to usher in a secular socialism.  The Ukrainophiles were actually opposed to Metropolitan Andrij Sheptytskyj at first, as they considered him a Polish sympathizer.  His middle way actually brought the Ukrainophiles and the Greek Catholic Church together.  The Greek Catholic Church was a dying element before Sheptytskyj got there.  It was a second-class entity and was steadily becoming more and more Latinized and Polonized.  Sheptytskyj was a believer in the Roman Catholic doctrines, but he, above all, managed to preserve the eastern ethos of the rite.

Of course, the rise of the II Polish Republic in 1918 gave the opportunity for the Orthodox -- mostly these starorusyny -- to reassert themselves in Galicia again.  But the Ukrainophiles also began to be drawn to Orthodoxy, in the form of an autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #275 on: December 06, 2014, 07:59:45 PM »
Thanks for the history; I've learned a few things from this revived thread.

I'd love it if the dominant Catholicism (the papal kind) in America were Byzantine, not Novus Ordo.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #276 on: December 06, 2014, 08:15:35 PM »
And if my memory is correct, even the Slavonic and English Trebnik/Liturgikon of the Slavic Greek Catholics reflects this by removing the term "pravoslavnyj" as in not saying: "Remember in Your Kingdom all Orthodox Christians" but rather saying "Christians of the true Faith". (Although this is not uniform I've noticed it in European liturgies.)
Actually, the Metropolia of Pittsburgh is the only one left with "true faith", the Ukrainians have returned to "Orthodox". 

My first traditional Catholic liturgy (papal), not counting Anglo-Catholic Anglican Masses, was Ukrainian in 1985; audible parts in English. Fr. Panasiuk said "orthodox" in the Great Entrance. The Ruthenians in America said and say "of the true faith." I'm all for translating it as "orthodox," expressing, besides small-o orthodoxy, Byzantine Catholics' kinship with the Orthodox without of course calling them big-O Orthodox, which would offend both sides. Anyway, I am 99.9% sure that the Slavonic Byzantine Catholic text says православныхъ христiанъ, "orthodox Christians" (source: my Levkulic pew book).
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Offline Papist

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #277 on: December 06, 2014, 08:23:09 PM »


I'd love it if the dominant Catholicism (the papal kind) in America were Byzantine, not Novus Ordo.

Me too. :)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #278 on: December 06, 2014, 11:53:55 PM »
I agree with Podkarpatska.  Alas, I have nothing much to add, except to say that the relevant dates here are neither 1787-1792 (those years are a joke, for Galicia, the heart of Greek Catholicism, was already out of Poland for 15 years by then!) nor 1677, but 1375.  The year 1375, when the Polish conquerors, with the Pope's blessing, installed a Latin bishop in Przemysl, demonstrates clearly the Latin intention in connection with the Ruthenian Voivodeship.  One may also consider what happened in the 1400s and 1500s to realize that the number of parishes that entered the Union of Brest in 1596 was considerably smaller than the number of Ruthenian parishes which had existed ca. 1400.  This is because a good number of those Ruthenian parishes had already been Latinized and/or Polonized, and this continued into the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.  See the work of Fr. Ioann Polianskyj.  I know of several places in Poland today where the inhabitants are actually Polonized Ukrainians, and have been for centuries.  The Union of Brest was motivated by a desire for the Orthodox bishops to secure political advantages, of course, but also by a desire to preserve the rite against these encroaching Latinizations, which had been relentless.  That the brotherhoods in the cities didn't go along with the program was of course problematic for all concerned.  But in the villages, most peasants were oblivious.  The stories of them securing Russian priests are true.  But villages often flip-flopped back and forth - they secured priests from any handy source.  They didn't much care whether they came from Russia or Poland, because the villagers couldn't much tell the difference anyway.

The last Orthodox monastery in Galicia, the Maniava skete, was closed in 1785.  There was one Orthodox parish that continued to function in L'viv throughout the Austrian period, but it served as a diplomatic outpost more than anything.  Most villagers did not even know that they had become Greek Catholic for centuries, nor did many know what that meant.  Certainly most in the villages, which was the bulk of society, did not know until after the revision of the service books following the Synod of Zamosc in 1720.  For all intents and purposes, following the political determinations of their bishops, the Orthodox Ruthenians had largely gone into exile under the aegis of the Greek Catholic Church.  All of the Ruthenian Voivodeship would have participated in this fate had not Russia encroached on Polish territory throughout the 17th and 18th centuries.  As late as 1768 there were still many Greek Catholics on the banks of the Dnipro River in Central Ukraine.  It was in that year, of course, that the Kolyvshchyna happened, when the Orthodox rose up against their Polish overlords and tragically murdered many of their Greek Catholic brethren.  This is a sad chapter in Ukrainian history.

As of the late 19th century, the Russophile parties in Austria began to agitate for a return to Orthodoxy and/or a reunion with Russia.  They were tolerated at first by Austria but then repressed when alliances changed and Russia became an adversary of Austria.  It was these priests, having gone over to the Russian Empire at Kholm, who formed the backbone of the effort which abolished Greek Catholicism in the Kholm Eparchy in 1875 and forcibly reunited it with Orthodoxy.  There were also members of the Russophile party which wished to join with Russia and remain Greek Catholic.  The Ukrainophile parties were split between those who wanted to remain Greek Catholic and others who were simply anti-clerical and wished to usher in a secular socialism.  The Ukrainophiles were actually opposed to Metropolitan Andrij Sheptytskyj at first, as they considered him a Polish sympathizer.  His middle way actually brought the Ukrainophiles and the Greek Catholic Church together.  The Greek Catholic Church was a dying element before Sheptytskyj got there.  It was a second-class entity and was steadily becoming more and more Latinized and Polonized.  Sheptytskyj was a believer in the Roman Catholic doctrines, but he, above all, managed to preserve the eastern ethos of the rite.

Of course, the rise of the II Polish Republic in 1918 gave the opportunity for the Orthodox -- mostly these starorusyny -- to reassert themselves in Galicia again.  But the Ukrainophiles also began to be drawn to Orthodoxy, in the form of an autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

Досить!  (Enough!)
looking at the maps of the area from a century and a half before your date of 1375 to the height of the Commonwealth and the attempt to force the "Unia" on the Orthodox




and comparing the ethnic compositions from the time of Sigismund's imposition of the "Unia" through and up to Stalin's liberation of Ukrainian territory from Poland's grip


we are, by and large, only speaking of the present day voivodships of Lublin and Subcarpathia
To the West of these the Poles were always a majority.  The Subcarpathian voivoidship was carved out of the interwar Lwow (which was a Polish city until Stalin took it) voivodship which had the following ethnic breakdown.

Lublin had remained the borderland

ironically the UOC was established with the consecration of Met. St. Petro Movila on March 15, 1633 in the Orthodox Cathedral of Lublin.

To sum up, the Polish-Rus'/Ukrainian/Ruthenian/Rusyn/Carpatho-Russian border hasn't move much, at least until the eve of WWI.

IOW the "Union" of Brest had little to no effect on Polonization nor assimilation into the Vatican's Latin rite for the bulk of the population.

As for the "diplomatic" Church in Lemberg a/k/a L'viv, I'm familiar with such Churches serving as fronts for the locals in the Middle East. Given that the Galicians swelled the Orthodox ranks of Bukowina and Kholm, along with the rest of Ukraine, diplomats did not make up the Orthodox population of Galicia under the Habsburgs.

As for the allegations of a decrease of parishes in the area after 1400, war will do that. That Cracow/Warsaw resettled with Poles and Germans did not help matters.
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Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #279 on: December 07, 2014, 12:01:58 AM »
The territory of Ukrainians should have run well to the north of Sianik, not stop there.  This is precisely what I am talking about.  I disagree that West Galicia was always a majority Polish territory.  It was originally ethnically a Ruthenian land but two factors - the introduction of Polish settlers and the late Medieval Polonization of the Ruthenian Churches made it so.

The Galicians who went into Kholm were educated classes, Russophile priests.  There may have been some tag-along peasants but this type of migration was unusual.  It was certainly very unusual before the abolition of serfdom in 1848.

I can't say with certainty how many Galicians went into Bukovyna.  But the usual migratory path was not to Bukovyna, but rather to the Kingdom of Hungary (present day Slovakia) for seasonal work.

Neither of us were alive in Galicia before 1914.  But I knew some people who were - they were peasants.  None of them had any traceable connections with Bukovyna or with Kholm, as far as I know.

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #280 on: December 07, 2014, 12:06:04 AM »
I should also add that the village of Niebieszczany in Galicia is an example of what I am talking about.  Before the dawn of the 18th century, it was a Ruthenian village.  By the mid 19th century, its inhabitants had been Polonized and the parish church had changed confessions.

Given time, I could dig up several more instances of this kind of event happening in the late Medieval times and early period after the Union, from Polianskyj's book.  Since I don't have time, I refer you to it for more details.

One of the favorite tactics of the Latinizers at this time was to have a fire in an Orthodox Church.  Then, they authorized the rebuilding of the Church only as a Latin Church, and brought in a local lord or count to finance the construction.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 12:07:22 AM by Yurysprudentsiya »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #281 on: December 07, 2014, 12:44:40 AM »
I should also add that the village of Niebieszczany in Galicia is an example of what I am talking about.  Before the dawn of the 18th century, it was a Ruthenian village.
or Lemko?

By the mid 19th century, its inhabitants had been Polonized and the parish church had changed confessions.
The area was still east of the Polish ethnicity line until WWII
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #282 on: December 07, 2014, 12:47:27 AM »
One of the favorite tactics of the Latinizers at this time was to have a fire in an Orthodox Church.  Then, they authorized the rebuilding of the Church only as a Latin Church, and brought in a local lord or count to finance the construction.

You mean, they deliberately set these fires? Arson?
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #283 on: December 07, 2014, 12:50:17 AM »
In 1490 there were no Catholics in what is now New York. In 1492, there were no Orthodox living along the Great Lakes.

The indigenous peoples living there at that time were eventually displaced by trickery, invasion and poverty.

Your point is exactly what?

By the time my grandparents left what is now Slovakia and Yuri' s great-grandparents left what is now western Ukraine, they were Greek Catholics and their villages and counties had been Greek Catholic for the better part of two centuries.

Today we are in America and Orthodox. History and fate take strange and often unexpected turns.

Arguing about modern legitimacy and national aspirations based on centuries old wrongs is akin to the seeking of reparations for slavery or the return of North America to indigenous peoples ownership.

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #284 on: December 07, 2014, 01:03:58 AM »
... is akin to the seeking of reparations for slavery or the return of North America to indigenous peoples ownership.

And? ;)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #285 on: December 07, 2014, 01:23:31 AM »
The territory of Ukrainians should have run well to the north of Sianik, not stop there.  This is precisely what I am talking about.  I disagree that West Galicia was always a majority Polish territory.  It was originally ethnically a Ruthenian land but two factors - the introduction of Polish settlers and the late Medieval Polonization of the Ruthenian Churches made it so.

The Galicians who went into Kholm were educated classes, Russophile priests.  There may have been some tag-along peasants but this type of migration was unusual.  It was certainly very unusual before the abolition of serfdom in 1848.

I can't say with certainty how many Galicians went into Bukovyna.  But the usual migratory path was not to Bukovyna, but rather to the Kingdom of Hungary (present day Slovakia) for seasonal work.

Neither of us were alive in Galicia before 1914.  But I knew some people who were - they were peasants.  None of them had any traceable connections with Bukovyna or with Kholm, as far as I know.
I don't know how much further West the Rus' could have stretched, given the extent of Little Poland, where the Vistulans built up the
Kingdom of Poland.

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #286 on: December 07, 2014, 04:22:17 PM »
One of the favorite tactics of the Latinizers at this time was to have a fire in an Orthodox Church.  Then, they authorized the rebuilding of the Church only as a Latin Church, and brought in a local lord or count to finance the construction.

You mean, they deliberately set these fires? Arson?

Who can say after 500 years?  But this scenario played itself out in more than one village.

I have no idea why Isa says that the village of Niebieszczany was "east of the Polish ethnicity line" before WWII based on a map showing the Akcja Wisla deportations.  The people living in that particular village in 1946 considered themselves Poles and went to the Roman Catholic Church; hence, they were not deported.  The map, then, kind of proves my point.  However, their surnames and lineages gave them away as being mostly Ukrainians.  Yes, these people were all Lemko Ukrainians in this area, which means that in 1910 they would have been called Ruthenians, as all of my people were.  Lemko as an ethnographic descriptor is comparatively late.  None of my ancestors from the first-wave called themselves Lemkos except for a few who started doing so after they got to America, although that is what they were.  Actually, I am part Lemko and part Boyko.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #287 on: December 07, 2014, 04:32:43 PM »
I have no idea why Isa says that the village of Niebieszczany was "east of the Polish ethnicity line" before WWII based on a map showing the Akcja Wisla deportations.  The people living in that particular village in 1946 considered themselves Poles and went to the Roman Catholic Church; hence, they were not deported.  The map, then, kind of proves my point. 
no, because they only became a majority in that area after Operation Vistula. That that one village (and others like it) went over to the other side-the "Unia" of Brest helped, not hindered, that.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #288 on: December 07, 2014, 04:34:05 PM »
I have no idea why Isa says that the village of Niebieszczany was "east of the Polish ethnicity line" before WWII based on a map showing the Akcja Wisla deportations.  The people living in that particular village in 1946 considered themselves Poles and went to the Roman Catholic Church; hence, they were not deported.  The map, then, kind of proves my point. 
no, because they only became a majority in that area after Operation Vistula. That that one village (and others like it) went over to the other side-the "Unia" of Brest helped, not hindered, that.

That's wrong, Isa.  I know who those people from Niebieszczany were before the war.  I know who the families were.  They were Polonized Ukrainians, but in this particular village they were Polonized by at least the 1830s, and probably well before that.

This was before 1947.

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #289 on: December 07, 2014, 04:37:47 PM »
Niebieszczany is a comparatively late example, although it is one that I am most familiar with.  The Polonization process happened there around the time of the 18th century.

I agree with you that the Union of Brest did not stop the Latinization.  But I believe that it slowed it.  Most villages that entered the Union as Ruthenian came out on the other side as Ruthenian (Ukrainian, Rusyn, whatever you want to call it - East Slav) either in the American immigration or the 20th century.  But there were many villages which had been Ruthenian before 1375 and which ended up as Polish by 1596.

But the other villages which Polianskyj cites, and I encourage you to look up, happened well before the Union of Brest.  His work is particularly valuable as he refers to parish chronicles, some of which were lost after Akcja Wisla.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 04:40:50 PM by Yurysprudentsiya »

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #290 on: December 07, 2014, 04:41:01 PM »
I have no idea why Isa says that the village of Niebieszczany was "east of the Polish ethnicity line" before WWII based on a map showing the Akcja Wisla deportations.  The people living in that particular village in 1946 considered themselves Poles and went to the Roman Catholic Church; hence, they were not deported.  The map, then, kind of proves my point. 
no, because they only became a majority in that area after Operation Vistula. That that one village (and others like it) went over to the other side-the "Unia" of Brest helped, not hindered, that.

That's wrong, Isa.  I know who those people from Niebieszczany were before the war.  I know who the families were.  They were Polonized Ukrainians, but in this particular village they were Polonized by at least the 1830s, and probably well before that.

This was before 1947.
And in 1939 it was still a majority Ukrainian area.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #291 on: December 07, 2014, 04:41:31 PM »
Niebieszczany was not Ukrainian in 1939.  Sanok County certainly was.

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #292 on: December 07, 2014, 04:43:18 PM »
But there were many villages which had been Ruthenian before 1375 and which ended up as Polish by 1596.
Like Lwów.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #293 on: December 07, 2014, 04:44:24 PM »
But there were many villages which had been Ruthenian before 1375 and which ended up as Polish by 1596.
Like Lwów.

L'viv wasn't a village in either of those times. 

Przemsyl (Peremyshl) is another example.  It is still Polish today. 

The Ukrainians got L'viv back; I guess the Poles got to keep Przemysl.

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #294 on: December 07, 2014, 04:46:10 PM »
Niebieszczany was not Ukrainian in 1939.  Sanok County certainly was.
Exactly.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #295 on: December 07, 2014, 07:58:56 PM »
But there were many villages which had been Ruthenian before 1375 and which ended up as Polish by 1596.
Like Lwów.
L'viv wasn't a village in either of those times.
Exactly. It was depopulated of its Ukrainians, populated by Poles, who let the Jews settle in. Between the latter,and the Latin Metropolitanate the Poles set up there in 1412, the Ukrainians/Ruthenians etc. were reduced to a minority in their former local capital and Galicia's largest city. Had it held out for over a century against the "Unia," there probably would be no Ruthenians left there. It's opposition to it was the only reason there were any Ruthenians there in 1596.

Przemsyl (Peremyshl) is another example.  It is still Polish today.
It was in a sea of "Little Russians" in 1880


The Ukrainians got L'viv back
Thank Stalin and Khrushchev
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #296 on: December 07, 2014, 09:21:50 PM »
I'll say this...most of the members of my grandparents' generation of "south of the Carpathian Ruthenians" aka Rusyns that I knew (and it was a fair number given my family's line of work ;) )  generally disliked Galicians, but they really despised the Poles and Hungarians. It really had less to do with religion and far more to do with being at the bottom of the social and economic heap on lands being batted back and forth by foreign powers for centuries.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 09:28:16 PM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #297 on: December 08, 2014, 02:27:35 AM »
Wow. Strange to see this thread back in the news.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #298 on: December 08, 2014, 02:37:51 AM »
I'll say this...most of the members of my grandparents' generation of "south of the Carpathian Ruthenians" aka Rusyns that I knew (and it was a fair number given my family's line of work ;) )  generally disliked Galicians, but they really despised the Poles and Hungarians. It really had less to do with religion and far more to do with being at the bottom of the social and economic heap on lands being batted back and forth by foreign powers for centuries.

From what I remember, Galicians = "Ukrainianists." For example, the first Eastern-rite church of any kind in Philadelphia, Holy Ghost Ruthenian, had a 1906 split in which a Galician brotherhood, of St. Michael, broke away to start its own parish. In 1909 that faction itself split between those who wanted to go with the Russians and those who wanted to remain Catholic, the Catholic faction becoming the Ukrainian Catholic archdiocese's cathedral. St. Michael's ended up in the Moscow Patriarchate, fiercely loyal to it; from what I remember, they think they're Russian.

Holy Ghost itself jumped to the Russians in 1912; when it became Catholic again the next year, an Orthodox faction started Assumption, now OCA, nearby. Assumption's interesting: half the music has remained prostopinije (such as in the litanies) and the Rusyn language survived for many years, but now the community, such as it is (the old neighborhood's moribund), thinks it's Russian.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #299 on: December 08, 2014, 11:34:18 AM »
I'll say this...most of the members of my grandparents' generation of "south of the Carpathian Ruthenians" aka Rusyns that I knew (and it was a fair number given my family's line of work ;) )  generally disliked Galicians, but they really despised the Poles and Hungarians. It really had less to do with religion and far more to do with being at the bottom of the social and economic heap on lands being batted back and forth by foreign powers for centuries.

From what I remember, Galicians = "Ukrainianists." For example, the first Eastern-rite church of any kind in Philadelphia, Holy Ghost Ruthenian, had a 1906 split in which a Galician brotherhood, of St. Michael, broke away to start its own parish. In 1909 that faction itself split between those who wanted to go with the Russians and those who wanted to remain Catholic, the Catholic faction becoming the Ukrainian Catholic archdiocese's cathedral. St. Michael's ended up in the Moscow Patriarchate, fiercely loyal to it; from what I remember, they think they're Russian.

Holy Ghost itself jumped to the Russians in 1912; when it became Catholic again the next year, an Orthodox faction started Assumption, now OCA, nearby. Assumption's interesting: half the music has remained prostopinije (such as in the litanies) and the Rusyn language survived for many years, but now the community, such as it is (the old neighborhood's moribund), thinks it's Russian.

The residual 'dislike' of Galicians has faded away over time as the reason for the dislike as Young Fogey notes from his anecdotal knowledge in Philadelphia, is that was not that the two groups practiced a 'different' religion or that they did not share a vast majority of small 't' tradition, but that they spoke a similar dialect with quite different accents (imagine a community of transplanted South Philadelphian, Pittsburgh and New England American accents and idioms trying to work together in say, Brazil....) and used a somewhat different liturgical chant - so when a 'joint' parish was established the two groups squabbled for control of how services were to be chanted and what spices one put in holubki. The religious issues usually popped up after the cultural ones caused the first divisions.  Really, I am not kidding and after the first war, the Galicians began to embrace Ukrainian identity which the Rusyns chose not to do.

It is interesting to look around south east PA (and right in my hometown of Binghamton, NY where we have Assumption/now Dormition in name OCA, St. Michael's Orthodox and Holy Spirit BCC all in the same moribund neighborhood) and see that there a number of communities with Holy Ghost parishes and St. Michael's parishes some Ukrainian today, others still residually 'Rusyn' and some Orthodox and some eastern Catholic. The old jokes about small PA and midwest towns with five or six onion domed or triple bar cross topped churches all founded by people originally related to one another or from the same regions becomes more clear to the outside observer.

But the reality is that after a century the differences (culturally) still resonate, but not as sharply or profoundly as they did in the past...
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 11:35:54 AM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #300 on: December 08, 2014, 02:15:30 PM »
After the first war, the Galicians began to embrace Ukrainian identity.

I knew the rest but not that Galicians' Ukrainianism is that recent. Thanks.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #301 on: December 08, 2014, 02:25:23 PM »
so when a 'joint' parish was established the two groups squabbled for control of how services were to be chanted and what spices one put in holubki.

LOL. This is Orthodoxy. You really are a goldmine of these Old World Orthodox anecdotes. No wonder people sometimes think that converts are weird when the authentic Orthodoxy is like this.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #302 on: December 08, 2014, 02:55:12 PM »
so when a 'joint' parish was established the two groups squabbled for control of how services were to be chanted and what spices one put in holubki.

LOL. This is Orthodoxy. You really are a goldmine of these Old World Orthodox anecdotes. No wonder people sometimes think that converts are weird when the authentic Orthodoxy is like this.

You made my day with that observation. No wonder why converts run for the hills when they encounter the still existing parishes who think it is still 1915. Fortunately, mine has moved well beyond that point...We are in at least 1949. lol

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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #303 on: December 08, 2014, 03:18:33 PM »
so when a 'joint' parish was established the two groups squabbled for control of how services were to be chanted and what spices one put in holubki.

LOL. This is Orthodoxy. You really are a goldmine of these Old World Orthodox anecdotes. No wonder people sometimes think that converts are weird when the authentic Orthodoxy is like this.

You made my day with that observation. No wonder why converts run for the hills when they encounter the still existing parishes who think it is still 1915. Fortunately, mine has moved well beyond that point...We are in at least 1949. lol

Which is lot of the culture's appeal to me; a reason I'd love it if American Catholicism were primarily Byzantine, not Novus Ordo. It's still the '50s.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #304 on: December 08, 2014, 04:31:49 PM »
so when a 'joint' parish was established the two groups squabbled for control of how services were to be chanted and what spices one put in holubki.

LOL. This is Orthodoxy. You really are a goldmine of these Old World Orthodox anecdotes. No wonder people sometimes think that converts are weird when the authentic Orthodoxy is like this.

You made my day with that observation. No wonder why converts run for the hills when they encounter the still existing parishes who think it is still 1915. Fortunately, mine has moved well beyond that point...We are in at least 1949. lol

Which is lot of the culture's appeal to me; a reason I'd love it if American Catholicism were primarily Byzantine, not Novus Ordo. It's still the '50s.

Haha. I was thinking the reason you wanted the American Church to be primarily Byzantine was the dignity of the Liturgy and such.
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Re: Papist's Criticism of Byzantine Rite Catholicism
« Reply #305 on: December 08, 2014, 04:40:36 PM »
so when a 'joint' parish was established the two groups squabbled for control of how services were to be chanted and what spices one put in holubki.

LOL. This is Orthodoxy. You really are a goldmine of these Old World Orthodox anecdotes. No wonder people sometimes think that converts are weird when the authentic Orthodoxy is like this.

You made my day with that observation. No wonder why converts run for the hills when they encounter the still existing parishes who think it is still 1915. Fortunately, mine has moved well beyond that point...We are in at least 1949. lol

Which is lot of the culture's appeal to me; a reason I'd love it if American Catholicism were primarily Byzantine, not Novus Ordo. It's still the '50s.

Haha. I was thinking the reason you wanted the American Church to be primarily Byzantine was the dignity of the Liturgy and such.

That's a big part of it. I have all that with the Tridentine Mass and offices but Byzantine, latinized and unlatinized, is just as good, plus you've got the musical traditions and Leonid Ouspensky's theology of icons (halfway between religious pictures and a sacramental presence).
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