OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 18, 2014, 01:59:52 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: An Orthodox opinion on Reformed Baptist Doctrine  (Read 5014 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mtgdude
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 19



« on: October 15, 2010, 07:23:30 PM »

I don't think most Baptist churches teaches this doctrine anymore. I'm looking to Orthodoxy, but this is the basic I was raised in till I  starting reading more. So, any opinion would be helpful. I'm not here to argue, just to learn. Thanks.


THE SCRIPTURES. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.

GOD. There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of Himself all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.

THE TRINITY. God is revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

PROVIDENCE. God, from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet not in any way as to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

ELECTION. Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life-- not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ-- in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.

THE FALL OF MAN. God originally created man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity [i.e. descendants] inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.

THE MEDIATOR. Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the law, suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, rose again on the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose right hand He lives forever to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest, and King of the church, and Sovereign of the Universe.

REGENERATION. Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who makes alive those who are dead in trespasses and sins, enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God’s free and special grace alone.

REPENTANCE. Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein the Holy Spirit makes a person aware of the manifold evil of his sin, so that he humbles himself with godly sorrow, detesting sin, and abhorring [i.e., hating] self, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.

FAITH. Saving faith is the belief, on God’s authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving grace, and leads to a life of holiness.

JUSTIFICATION. Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal of sinners who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made. It is given not for anything wrought in them or done by them, but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.

SANCTIFICATION. Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified by God’s Word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial [i.e., willing] obedience to all Christ’s commands.

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS. Those whom God has accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

THE CHURCH. The Lord Jesus is the Head of the Church, which is composed of all His true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to His commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches He has given needful authority for administering the order, discipline and worship which He has appointed. The regular officers of a church are Bishops (or Elders) and Deacons.

BAPTISM. Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of his giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life.

THE LORD’S SUPPER. The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with bread and wine, and to be observed by His churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate His death, to confirm the faith of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge, and renewal of their communion with Him, and of their church fellowship.

THE LORD’S DAY. The New Testament Church gives the example of assembling on the Lord’s Day (i.e. Sunday) for the reading and teaching of the Word of God, worship, prayer, and mutual encouragement - stimulating one another to love and good deeds. It is fitting to view the Lord’s Day as a celebration of Christ’s resurrection and the redemption of His people.

LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE. God alone is Lord of the conscience; and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

THE RESURRECTION. The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God - the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

THE JUDGMENT. God has appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds: the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

Quote
Abstract of Principles set down by James Pettigru Boyce, the principle founder of Southern Seminary (1859), the first Chairman of its Faculty (1859-1887), its first President (1888), and its most distinguished professor of Systematic Theology. We would also indentify with the London Baptist Confession of 1689, the Philadelphia Confession of 1742, the New Hampshire Baptist Confession of 1833, and the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 07:24:12 PM by mtgdude » Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2010, 07:30:29 PM »

Welcome to the nuthouse forum!  Grin

What you have posted looks like a "statement of faith" posted inside most pew Bibles in Baptist churches. The Orthodox Church also has a statement of faith that was adopted at the First Council of Nicea in 327 AD. It succinctly describes what the Church believes. It is known as the Nicene Creed:

The Nicene Creed


I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who
spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come.

Amen.

It should be known that the word "catholic" in the Creed comes from the Greek word "katholikos." It means "universal" and refers to the universal nature of the Church and does not mean we are affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church.

Many other threads have been started on our beliefs regarding Baptism, the Eucharist, and the like. If you do a search, I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for. You may also want to check out the following websites:

http://www.goarch.org/
http://www.oca.org/
http://www.antiochian.org/
http://www.acrod.org/
http://orthodoxyinamerica.org/
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 07:37:18 PM by HandmaidenofGod » Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
mtgdude
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 19



« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 08:05:16 PM »

Thank you HandmaidenofGod. I ordered a copy of 'The Orthodox Church' and some other books on early Christian history. (
Story of Christianity: An Illustrated History of 2000 Years of the Christian Faith by David Bentley Hartz)

Again, thanks for the links and the suggestions.
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2010, 10:30:38 PM »

No problem!

A lot of the topics you may be interested in have probably surfaced right here in the Orthodox-Protestant discussion. As you will soon see, Forum Member David Young is a Baptist from England, and has initiated much discussion about similar topics.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2010, 10:34:44 PM »

I just have to point out, as I always must any time I see it, that it pains me that the first clause of their beliefs references the Scriptures. God, quite literally, comes second.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,964



« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2010, 11:31:58 PM »

Catholic doesn't mean "universal." Ecumenical means universal.

Catholic means "according to the whole" or "complete."
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2010, 11:53:47 PM »

Catholic doesn't mean "universal." Ecumenical means universal.

Catholic means "according to the whole" or "complete."

That's just about right.  Wink
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2010, 12:45:56 AM »

Catholic doesn't mean "universal." Ecumenical means universal.

Catholic means "according to the whole" or "complete."

Actually it means both. So we're both right.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
PrincessMommy
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 734


OCA


« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2010, 09:50:53 AM »

I just have to point out, as I always must any time I see it, that it pains me that the first clause of their beliefs references the Scriptures. God, quite literally, comes second.

Gosh, I never noticed that before. 

Welcome to the forum Mtgdude. 
Logged
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2010, 11:01:40 AM »

I just have to point out, as I always must any time I see it, that it pains me that the first clause of their beliefs references the Scriptures. God, quite literally, comes second.

You have to understand the Protestant doctrine regarding this.  It is a common doctrine among Protestants (particularly Lutherans) that God manifests Himself through the Scriptures (or as they say it, through the Word).  It is not possible for man to know God except by what is revealed in the Scriptures.  Consequently, the Scriptures have the highest order of precedence because without them, we could not know God.  No Protestant who understands his doctrine would hold the Scriptures above God.  They do not worship the Scriptures, but worship only God.  They simply believe that knowing God is impossible without exposure to the "Word of God", either read in the Bible or read to them in Church.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2010, 12:28:21 PM »

I just have to point out, as I always must any time I see it, that it pains me that the first clause of their beliefs references the Scriptures. God, quite literally, comes second.

You have to understand the Protestant doctrine regarding this.  It is a common doctrine among Protestants (particularly Lutherans) that God manifests Himself through the Scriptures (or as they say it, through the Word).  It is not possible for man to know God except by what is revealed in the Scriptures.  Consequently, the Scriptures have the highest order of precedence because without them, we could not know God.  No Protestant who understands his doctrine would hold the Scriptures above God.  They do not worship the Scriptures, but worship only God.  They simply believe that knowing God is impossible without exposure to the "Word of God", either read in the Bible or read to them in Church.

Really?!  Wow!  I don't mean to be disrespectful towards Protestants, but that is the most bizarre belief.   Shocked
Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
mtgdude
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 19



« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2010, 01:02:55 PM »

I just have to point out, as I always must any time I see it, that it pains me that the first clause of their beliefs references the Scriptures. God, quite literally, comes second.

You have to understand the Protestant doctrine regarding this.  It is a common doctrine among Protestants (particularly Lutherans) that God manifests Himself through the Scriptures (or as they say it, through the Word).  It is not possible for man to know God except by what is revealed in the Scriptures.  Consequently, the Scriptures have the highest order of precedence because without them, we could not know God.  No Protestant who understands his doctrine would hold the Scriptures above God.  They do not worship the Scriptures, but worship only God.  They simply believe that knowing God is impossible without exposure to the "Word of God", either read in the Bible or read to them in Church.

Really?!  Wow!  I don't mean to be disrespectful towards Protestants, but that is the most bizarre belief.   Shocked

My mother told me once that Jesus spoke American.  Roll Eyes She's been going to church for 50 years and has never read the Bible.

Protestant Christianity in America is more of social club or Six Flags over Jesus. 
Logged
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2010, 03:54:54 PM »

I just have to point out, as I always must any time I see it, that it pains me that the first clause of their beliefs references the Scriptures. God, quite literally, comes second.

You have to understand the Protestant doctrine regarding this.  It is a common doctrine among Protestants (particularly Lutherans) that God manifests Himself through the Scriptures (or as they say it, through the Word).  It is not possible for man to know God except by what is revealed in the Scriptures.  Consequently, the Scriptures have the highest order of precedence because without them, we could not know God.  No Protestant who understands his doctrine would hold the Scriptures above God.  They do not worship the Scriptures, but worship only God.  They simply believe that knowing God is impossible without exposure to the "Word of God", either read in the Bible or read to them in Church.

Really?!  Wow!  I don't mean to be disrespectful towards Protestants, but that is the most bizarre belief.   Shocked

It is all that you have left after you reject Tradition as well as any synergistic activity on the part of the saved.  The Lutherans reject "Predestination", but their doctrine of "Grace Alone" with no possible act on our part working toward our Salvation is so close that the difference is a nuance.  The most conservative of the Lutherans also do not believe that the Holy Spirit works directly outside of the preaching of the Word of God.  Perhaps a byproduct of the Filoque?  Their belief is bizarre to us, but quite logical once you eliminate anything outside of Scripture that could counter it, and claim that those parts of Scripture that counter it are misinterpreted. 
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
KBN1
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: EO
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 888



« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2010, 05:03:19 PM »


Protestant Christianity in America is more of social club or Six Flags over Jesus. 

Welcome to the forum.  Unfortunately what you said about Protestantism is true in some cases, but as a blanket statement I think that is unfair. 
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2010, 09:13:25 PM »

I don't think most Baptist churches teaches this doctrine anymore. I'm looking to Orthodoxy, but this is the basic I was raised in till I  starting reading more. So, any opinion would be helpful. I'm not here to argue, just to learn. Thanks.


THE SCRIPTURES. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.

GOD. There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of Himself all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.

THE TRINITY. God is revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

PROVIDENCE. God, from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet not in any way as to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

ELECTION. Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life-- not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ-- in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.

THE FALL OF MAN. God originally created man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity [i.e. descendants] inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.

THE MEDIATOR. Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the law, suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, rose again on the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose right hand He lives forever to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest, and King of the church, and Sovereign of the Universe.

REGENERATION. Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who makes alive those who are dead in trespasses and sins, enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God’s free and special grace alone.

REPENTANCE. Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein the Holy Spirit makes a person aware of the manifold evil of his sin, so that he humbles himself with godly sorrow, detesting sin, and abhorring [i.e., hating] self, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.

FAITH. Saving faith is the belief, on God’s authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving grace, and leads to a life of holiness.

JUSTIFICATION. Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal of sinners who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made. It is given not for anything wrought in them or done by them, but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.

SANCTIFICATION. Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified by God’s Word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial [i.e., willing] obedience to all Christ’s commands.

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS. Those whom God has accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

THE CHURCH. The Lord Jesus is the Head of the Church, which is composed of all His true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to His commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches He has given needful authority for administering the order, discipline and worship which He has appointed. The regular officers of a church are Bishops (or Elders) and Deacons.

BAPTISM. Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of his giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life.

THE LORD’S SUPPER. The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with bread and wine, and to be observed by His churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate His death, to confirm the faith of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge, and renewal of their communion with Him, and of their church fellowship.

THE LORD’S DAY. The New Testament Church gives the example of assembling on the Lord’s Day (i.e. Sunday) for the reading and teaching of the Word of God, worship, prayer, and mutual encouragement - stimulating one another to love and good deeds. It is fitting to view the Lord’s Day as a celebration of Christ’s resurrection and the redemption of His people.

LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE. God alone is Lord of the conscience; and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

THE RESURRECTION. The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God - the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

THE JUDGMENT. God has appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds: the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

Quote
Abstract of Principles set down by James Pettigru Boyce, the principle founder of Southern Seminary (1859), the first Chairman of its Faculty (1859-1887), its first President (1888), and its most distinguished professor of Systematic Theology. We would also indentify with the London Baptist Confession of 1689, the Philadelphia Confession of 1742, the New Hampshire Baptist Confession of 1833, and the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000.

Never mind.......I see it!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 09:15:49 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2010, 09:21:38 PM »

Catholic doesn't mean "universal." Ecumenical means universal.

Catholic means "according to the whole" or "complete."

That's just about right.  Wink

I agree!
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 09:22:29 PM »

Catholic doesn't mean "universal." Ecumenical means universal.

Catholic means "according to the whole" or "complete."

Actually it means both. So we're both right.

True! By the way, I love your avatar. That's the Serbian Monastery near Chicago right? It's a beautiful place!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 09:25:19 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2010, 09:49:59 PM »

Catholic doesn't mean "universal." Ecumenical means universal.

Catholic means "according to the whole" or "complete."

Actually it means both. So we're both right.

It has to be very qualified in the sense that it means "universal", however, as the Romanists frequently claim that their church is the universal one because of their church being all over the world an in all languages in a sense that we are certainly not.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2010, 10:07:22 PM »

It has to be very qualified in the sense that it means "universal", however, as the Romanists frequently claim that their church is the universal one because of their church being all over the world an in all languages in a sense that we are certainly not.

The Romanians? That's weird of them to say.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2010, 10:21:38 PM »

Protestant Christianity in America is more of social club or Six Flags over Jesus. 

Replace "social" with the word "ethnic," and that can describe some (not all) Orthodox or Catholic parishes. I don't think it's fair to paint all Protestant groups with such a broad brush or to paint Orthodoxy or Catholicism with such a broad brush.

I know many faithful Christians of varying Christian backgrounds who have a deep rooted faith and know scripture very well. I also know many Christians who just go to Church for the free coffee and donuts. (Mmmm... donuts.... lol)

Bottom line: It depends on the individual. Which is how we will be judged. As individuals.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2010, 10:31:31 PM »

Protestant Christianity in America is more of social club or Six Flags over Jesus. 

Replace "social" with the word "ethnic," and that can describe some (not all) Orthodox or Catholic parishes. I don't think it's fair to paint all Protestant groups with such a broad brush or to paint Orthodoxy or Catholicism with such a broad brush.

I know many faithful Christians of varying Christian backgrounds who have a deep rooted faith and know scripture very well. I also know many Christians who just go to Church for the free coffee and donuts. (Mmmm... donuts.... lol)

Bottom line: It depends on the individual. Which is how we will be judged. As individuals.

It's people like you that make me want to be Orthodox. *thumbs up*
Logged


I'm going to need this.
mtgdude
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 19



« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2010, 10:50:19 PM »

Protestant Christianity in America is more of social club or Six Flags over Jesus. 

Replace "social" with the word "ethnic," and that can describe some (not all) Orthodox or Catholic parishes. I don't think it's fair to paint all Protestant groups with such a broad brush or to paint Orthodoxy or Catholicism with such a broad brush.

I know many faithful Christians of varying Christian backgrounds who have a deep rooted faith and know scripture very well. I also know many Christians who just go to Church for the free coffee and donuts. (Mmmm... donuts.... lol)

Bottom line: It depends on the individual. Which is how we will be judged. As individuals.

This is very true I know many good Protestants, sorry for the over generalization.
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2010, 11:05:14 PM »

It has to be very qualified in the sense that it means "universal", however, as the Romanists frequently claim that their church is the universal one because of their church being all over the world an in all languages in a sense that we are certainly not.

The Romanians? That's weird of them to say.

I didn't say Romanians.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,267

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2010, 11:12:39 AM »

What's interesting about the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura, is that they only hold that view because of a priori assumptions they hold, and circular reasoning based on inferences in the Scriptures themselves ("I believe this about the Bible because the Bible says so.")

The irony is that they can't hold the view of Scripture that they do without Tradition, which they then reject.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,404


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2010, 11:28:13 AM »

It has to be very qualified in the sense that it means "universal", however, as the Romanists frequently claim that their church is the universal one because of their church being all over the world an in all languages in a sense that we are certainly not.

The Romanians? That's weird of them to say.

I didn't say Romanians.
No, he's bringing up that shadow "Romanist" group that I can't seem to find online. Wink <ducks, and run out of the thread> lol
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2010, 11:45:58 AM »

It has to be very qualified in the sense that it means "universal", however, as the Romanists frequently claim that their church is the universal one because of their church being all over the world an in all languages in a sense that we are certainly not.

The Romanians? That's weird of them to say.

I didn't say Romanians.

No, he's bringing up that shadow "Romanist" group that I can't seem to find online. Wink <ducks, and run out of the thread> lol

I did some searching, he's either talking about the Romanovs:

"The House of Romanov (Russian: Рома́нов, pronounced [rʌˈmanəf]) was the second and last imperial dynasty to rule over Russia, reigning from 1613 until the February Revolution abolished the crown in 1917. The later history of the Imperial House is sometimes referred to informally as the House of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov."



But that doesn't seem right. I don't think they'd say that.

Or he's talking about:

Romanism was a word used as a derogatory term for Roman Catholicism in the past when anti-Catholicism was more common in the United States and the United Kingdom. The term was frequently used in late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century Republican invectives against the Democrats, as part of the slogan "Rum, rebellion, and Romanism" (referencing the Democratic party's constituency of Southerners and anti-Temperance, frequently Catholic, working-class immigrants). The term and slogan gained particular prominence in the 1928 presidential campaign, in which the Democratic candidate was the outspokenly anti-Prohibition Catholic Governor of New York Al Smith. The term is still used, though rarely, by anti-Catholics.

Logged


I'm going to need this.
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2010, 01:15:48 PM »

^ I find it peculiar that you chose to use a pic of Steven Colbert, who is an avowed Catholic who teaches Sunday school at his local parish.

source
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2010, 02:12:01 PM »

^ I find it peculiar that you chose to use a pic of Steven Colbert, who is an avowed Catholic who teaches Sunday school at his local parish.

source

It's only peculiar because you're reading too much into it. It's a funny picture, that is all.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,485



« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2010, 03:11:41 PM »

Perhaps this one will be more to your liking? So far as I know, the Emperor is not Catholic...  Tongue

Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2010, 03:46:09 PM »

Perhaps this one will be more to your liking? So far as I know, the Emperor is not Catholic...  Tongue



Is the Pope not Catholic?  Grin

Logged


I'm going to need this.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2010, 05:41:25 PM »

It has to be very qualified in the sense that it means "universal", however, as the Romanists frequently claim that their church is the universal one because of their church being all over the world an in all languages in a sense that we are certainly not.

The Romanians? That's weird of them to say.

I didn't say Romanians.
No, he's bringing up that shadow "Romanist" group that I can't seem to find online. Wink <ducks, and run out of the thread> lol

You're lying.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2010, 05:58:03 PM »

Is the Pope not Catholic?  Grin

No, he's not.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2010, 05:59:00 PM »

Or he's talking about:

Romanism was a word used as a derogatory term for Roman Catholicism in the past when anti-Catholicism was more common in the United States and the United Kingdom. The term was frequently used in late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century Republican invectives against the Democrats, as part of the slogan "Rum, rebellion, and Romanism" (referencing the Democratic party's constituency of Southerners and anti-Temperance, frequently Catholic, working-class immigrants). The term and slogan gained particular prominence in the 1928 presidential campaign, in which the Democratic candidate was the outspokenly anti-Prohibition Catholic Governor of New York Al Smith. The term is still used, though rarely, by anti-Catholics.

Something along those lines. But I've already said numerous times exactly what I mean by the term. You are just choosing intentionally to ignore it.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2010, 06:22:21 PM »

Or he's talking about:

Romanism was a word used as a derogatory term for Roman Catholicism in the past when anti-Catholicism was more common in the United States and the United Kingdom. The term was frequently used in late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century Republican invectives against the Democrats, as part of the slogan "Rum, rebellion, and Romanism" (referencing the Democratic party's constituency of Southerners and anti-Temperance, frequently Catholic, working-class immigrants). The term and slogan gained particular prominence in the 1928 presidential campaign, in which the Democratic candidate was the outspokenly anti-Prohibition Catholic Governor of New York Al Smith. The term is still used, though rarely, by anti-Catholics.

Something along those lines. But I've already said numerous times exactly what I mean by the term. You are just choosing intentionally to ignore it.

No, you ignore it's offensiveness and pure intent in showing your distaste. You don't represent your faith well when you purposefully use derogatory words, no matter how you rationalize it. You won't earn anything good from it's use; you will only turn people away as they associate your hate and pride with your faith.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2010, 10:02:33 PM »

Or he's talking about:

Romanism was a word used as a derogatory term for Roman Catholicism in the past when anti-Catholicism was more common in the United States and the United Kingdom. The term was frequently used in late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century Republican invectives against the Democrats, as part of the slogan "Rum, rebellion, and Romanism" (referencing the Democratic party's constituency of Southerners and anti-Temperance, frequently Catholic, working-class immigrants). The term and slogan gained particular prominence in the 1928 presidential campaign, in which the Democratic candidate was the outspokenly anti-Prohibition Catholic Governor of New York Al Smith. The term is still used, though rarely, by anti-Catholics.

Something along those lines. But I've already said numerous times exactly what I mean by the term. You are just choosing intentionally to ignore it.

No, you ignore it's offensiveness and pure intent in showing your distaste. You don't represent your faith well when you purposefully use derogatory words, no matter how you rationalize it. You won't earn anything good from it's use; you will only turn people away as they associate your hate and pride with your faith.

You are still assuming it is a matter of particular "distaste" or "hate", which I have clarified again and again that it is not. Unless you think that believing that you are not Catholic is inherently a matter of distaste and hate, which is simply ridiculous. So yes, it is clear that you are choosing to ignore my explanations.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2010, 10:18:49 PM »

Or he's talking about:

Romanism was a word used as a derogatory term for Roman Catholicism in the past when anti-Catholicism was more common in the United States and the United Kingdom. The term was frequently used in late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century Republican invectives against the Democrats, as part of the slogan "Rum, rebellion, and Romanism" (referencing the Democratic party's constituency of Southerners and anti-Temperance, frequently Catholic, working-class immigrants). The term and slogan gained particular prominence in the 1928 presidential campaign, in which the Democratic candidate was the outspokenly anti-Prohibition Catholic Governor of New York Al Smith. The term is still used, though rarely, by anti-Catholics.

Something along those lines. But I've already said numerous times exactly what I mean by the term. You are just choosing intentionally to ignore it.

No, you ignore it's offensiveness and pure intent in showing your distaste. You don't represent your faith well when you purposefully use derogatory words, no matter how you rationalize it. You won't earn anything good from it's use; you will only turn people away as they associate your hate and pride with your faith.

You are still assuming it is a matter of particular "distaste" or "hate", which I have clarified again and again that it is not. Unless you think that believing that you are not Catholic is inherently a matter of distaste and hate, which is simply ridiculous. So yes, it is clear that you are choosing to ignore my explanations.

I guess that I do not understand how expressing the belief that Roman Catholics are outside the Church (which I do believe) on an Orthodox Board equals hate.  And if the truth hurts, why would someone be on the board?  Some of us are not going to compromise our beliefs just because someone who is not Orthodox gets upset about those beliefs.  And no, that does not mean that we hate them.  And, if they associate our belief with pride and hate after we tell them otherwise, they have the problem and not us.  We should not have to cater to the stupidity of someone else.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2010, 10:47:34 PM »

Or he's talking about:

Romanism was a word used as a derogatory term for Roman Catholicism in the past when anti-Catholicism was more common in the United States and the United Kingdom. The term was frequently used in late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century Republican invectives against the Democrats, as part of the slogan "Rum, rebellion, and Romanism" (referencing the Democratic party's constituency of Southerners and anti-Temperance, frequently Catholic, working-class immigrants). The term and slogan gained particular prominence in the 1928 presidential campaign, in which the Democratic candidate was the outspokenly anti-Prohibition Catholic Governor of New York Al Smith. The term is still used, though rarely, by anti-Catholics.

Something along those lines. But I've already said numerous times exactly what I mean by the term. You are just choosing intentionally to ignore it.

No, you ignore it's offensiveness and pure intent in showing your distaste. You don't represent your faith well when you purposefully use derogatory words, no matter how you rationalize it. You won't earn anything good from it's use; you will only turn people away as they associate your hate and pride with your faith.

You are still assuming it is a matter of particular "distaste" or "hate", which I have clarified again and again that it is not. Unless you think that believing that you are not Catholic is inherently a matter of distaste and hate, which is simply ridiculous. So yes, it is clear that you are choosing to ignore my explanations.

I guess that I do not understand how expressing the belief that Roman Catholics are outside the Church (which I do believe) on an Orthodox Board equals hate.  And if the truth hurts, why would someone be on the board?  Some of us are not going to compromise our beliefs just because someone who is not Orthodox gets upset about those beliefs.  And no, that does not mean that we hate them.  And, if they associate our belief with pride and hate after we tell them otherwise, they have the problem and not us.  We should not have to cater to the stupidity of someone else.

You fail to recognize the words you use convey meaning beyond what you desire. You can believe all you want about the truth of your church, that's not the question. The point is the words you use which you know to be derogatory. You dont have to compromise your beliefs to use the names associated with a given church. Replacing "Roman Catholic Church" with anything derogatory, is nothing BUT derogatory.

Catholics may not consider the Orthodox "orthodox", but that doesn't excuse them from calling them by anything other than that name.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2010, 10:55:17 PM »

Names are usually not empty. They have meanings behind them. "Catholics" call themselves Catholic because for them it indicates the claim that they are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ. So what if I disagree with that assumption? Why should I assume the title that indicates the claim that I disagree with?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2010, 10:53:53 AM »

Names are usually not empty. They have meanings behind them. "Catholics" call themselves Catholic because for them it indicates the claim that they are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ. So what if I disagree with that assumption? Why should I assume the title that indicates the claim that I disagree with?

If it pains you so much to mention the name, either call them "Roman Catholic/Roman Catholic Church"  or RCC. You can claim neither of those names, and you have not overtly disrespected anyone.

I'm really not trying to be a !$#^ about this. I'm actually trying to help you. Because if you imagine all the lurkers who pass through this forum, looking for questions, who have never seen/spoken to an Oriental Orthodox or an Eastern Orthodox, but think they may agree with with said theology, you don't want to give them a bad impression. Especially, if said person is a Roman Catholic. For perspective, if you were an OO looking at becoming RC and you found a forum where the RCs couldn't mention the name Oriental Orthodox without spitting, do you think you'd feel very comfortable? It might give you a bad impression.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,404


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2010, 12:40:40 PM »

Names are usually not empty. They have meanings behind them. "Catholics" call themselves Catholic because for them it indicates the claim that they are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ. So what if I disagree with that assumption? Why should I assume the title that indicates the claim that I disagree with?
Why don't you just call us "The Latins"? It doesn't come with all the historical bagage of the term "Romanists".

Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,404


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2010, 12:41:02 PM »

Perhaps this one will be more to your liking? So far as I know, the Emperor is not Catholic...  Tongue



Is the Pope not Catholic?  Grin


Two of my favorite pics!  Grin
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,404


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2010, 12:42:13 PM »

Is the Pope not Catholic?  Grin

No, he's not.
You are right. Pope Shenouda is not Catholic, he's Oriental Orthodox.   laugh I Kid! I KID!. lol
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,404


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2010, 12:43:16 PM »

Perhaps this one will be more to your liking? So far as I know, the Emperor is not Catholic...  Tongue



Is the Pope not Catholic?  Grin


I have considered making the lightning bolt pic my avatar.  Cheesy
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2010, 01:01:38 PM »

I have considered making the lightning bolt pic my avatar.  Cheesy

I know. I can't stop laughing when I see them.  laugh  That'd be funny, if one was your pic.



Logged


I'm going to need this.
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 684


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2010, 02:22:24 PM »

I just have to point out, as I always must any time I see it, that it pains me that the first clause of their beliefs references the Scriptures. God, quite literally, comes second.

You have to understand the Protestant doctrine regarding this.  It is a common doctrine among Protestants (particularly Lutherans) that God manifests Himself through the Scriptures (or as they say it, through the Word).  It is not possible for man to know God except by what is revealed in the Scriptures.  Consequently, the Scriptures have the highest order of precedence because without them, we could not know God.  No Protestant who understands his doctrine would hold the Scriptures above God.  They do not worship the Scriptures, but worship only God.  They simply believe that knowing God is impossible without exposure to the "Word of God", either read in the Bible or read to them in Church.

Really?!  Wow!  I don't mean to be disrespectful towards Protestants, but that is the most bizarre belief.   Shocked

Really? How so? It's true that the Apostles did not have canonized Scripture but Christ regularly referenced the Old Testament. Scripture IS the paradigm of revelation aka Holy Tradition. I would agree that without it one can not know God
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.168 seconds with 73 queries.