Author Topic: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy  (Read 14226 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Eugenio

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 460
Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« on: October 14, 2010, 03:34:35 PM »
Not sure if this should be posted in the "Other Christian Discussion" section, but since it has to do with the Divine Liturgy, I'll post it here and if a moderator wants to move it, I won't object.

I was reading a traditionalist Catholic critique of the Novus Ordo (post Vatican II) mass and it stated that the Catholic Mass has three purposes:

1. ULTIMATE PURPOSE. The ultimate purpose of the Mass is the sacrifice of praise rendered to the Most Holy Trinity. This end conforms to the primary purpose of the Incarnation, explicitly enunciated by Christ Himself: "Coming into the world he saith: sacrifice and oblation thou wouldst not, but a body thou hast fitted me."

2. ORDINARY PURPOSE. The ordinary purpose of the Mass is propitiatory sacrifice--making satisfaction to God for sin

3. IMMANENT PURPOSE. The immanent purpose of the Mass is fundamentally that of sacrifice. It is essential that the Sacrifice, whatever its nature, be pleasing to God and accepted by Him. Because of original sin, however, no sacrifice other than the Christ's Sacrifice can claim to be acceptable and pleasing to God in its own right.

Source: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1969ottoviani.html

I've often heard my Catholic friends and acquaintances talk of the "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass." Yet after being in the Greek Orthodox church for 10 years, I've never heard an Orthodox priest - of any jurisdiction - speak of the Divine Liturgy as being a "sacrifice." Do Orthodox think of the mystery of the Holy Eucharist in this way? Or is this another difference between the two churches?

Please keep the discussion civil. I'm not trying to start a polemical flame war here, just trying to learn the theological underpinnings of how the liturgy in the two churches developed differently...or remained the same????

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,541
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2010, 03:41:54 PM »
I don't have time to pull the cites, but quite a few of the priest's "secret" prayers during the DL mention "the sacrifice" or "the bloodless sacrifice" that is about to be offered.

While not exactly synonymous with "sacrifice," we do "offer the Holy Oblation in peace," at the beginning of the Anaphora.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Lenexa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 159
  • VOCATUS ATQUE NON VOCATUS, DEUS ADERIT
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2010, 07:09:49 PM »
Strictly speaking it is called the "un-bloody Sacrifice" because it does not involve cutting and blood-letting and such as in the Old Law Sacrifices however it is not "blood-less" as the wine becomes the Lord's very Blood.
The Council of Blachernae in 1157 dealt with the Sacrifice of the Christ on the Cross and of the Liturgy. I use this quote:
“To those who hear the Saviour when He said in regard to the priestly service of the divine Mysteries delivered by Him, ‘This do in remembrance of Me’, but who do not understand the word ‘remembrance’ correctly, and who dare to say that the daily sacrifice offered by the sacred ministers of the divine Mysteries exactly as our Saviour, the Master of all, delivered to us, re-enacts only symbolically and figuratively the sacrifice of His own body and blood which our Saviour had offered on the Cross for the ransom and redemption of our common human nature; for this reason, since they introduce the doctrine that this sacrifice is different from the one originally consummated by the Saviour and that it recalls only symbolically and figuratively, they bring to naught the Mystery of the awesome and divine priestly service whereby we receive the earnest of the future life; therefore, to those who deny what is staunchly proclaimed by our divine Father, John Chrysostom, who says in many commentaries on the sayings of the great Paul that the sacrifice is identical, that both are one and the same: Anathema (3)”
The Orthodox Liturgy is a Sacrifice. The fact that you never hear it referred to as the Holy Sacrifice of the Divine Liturgy has to do with the popularity of the wording in Roman Catholicism compared to Orthodoxy and also because in Orthodox Seminaries, to my knowledge, this so essential aspect of the Divine Liturgy is not really emphasized enough or drummed into the priests enough to wear it becomes an expression in the way, "The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" is amongst Catholics.
Vladimir Moss's book On the Dogma of Redemption http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/downloads/163_THE_MYSTERY_Of_REDEMPTION.pdf goes into great deal about this and is an excellent treatment on what the Orthodox believe about the Sacrifice on the Cross and the Sacrifice of the Divine Liturgy! Regardless of how you view his being a member of an Old Calendarist Synod his book conforms to what all Orthodox have always believed with using many, many quotes from the fathers. His point of view mirrors that of St.John Maximovitch and Fr.Seraphim Rose in confronting the popularity of Bishop Anthony Khrapovitsky's bizarre ascription of our Redemption to the Agony in Gethsemane.
Hope this helps!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 07:11:19 PM by Lenexa »

Offline Fr.Kyrillos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 07:37:41 PM »
In the Coptic tradition, it is very much called a sacrifice. At the beginning of the Offertory (Coptic Liturgy of St. Basil) the priest proclaims, "grant O Lord that this sacrifice may be accepted before You for my own sins and for the ignorance of Your people." And before the Anaphora, the priest prays silently, "We ask You O our Master, turn us not back when we put our hands on this awesome and bloodless sacrifice."

It is also common for people to ask the priest that the "sacrifice be offered" on their behalf, or on behalf of a loved one.

Fr. Kyrillos

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 11:32:35 PM »
I've heard it commonly said that the one who offers and who is being offered is Christ.

Offline Rufus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,337
  • Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2010, 12:43:17 AM »
I've heard it commonly said that the one who offers and who is being offered is Christ.

This is the deeper meaning of Ta sa ek ton son soi prospheromen kata panta kai dia panta (Thine own of Thine own do we offer unto Thee, because of all and for all).

The difference, I think, is that we don't think of it as "working" by making satisfaction for our sins, just as we do not teach Christ's atonement in terms of satisfaction.

Offline Salpy

  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,544
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2010, 01:09:21 AM »
In the Armenian Church the liturgy is called "Soorp Badarak," which means "Holy Sacrifice."

Offline Subdeacon Michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 195
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2010, 06:10:27 AM »
The difference, I think, is that we don't think of it as "working" by making satisfaction for our sins, just as we do not teach Christ's atonement in terms of satisfaction.

Precisely!

This is based on Anselmian satisfactionism, which is not based on an understanding of redemption as a solely juridical state - something external to us - and not something that actually transforms our being. It is quite alien to Orthodoxy.

The rest others have explained well.

M
'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,281
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2010, 10:52:02 AM »
In the Armenian Church the liturgy is called "Soorp Badarak," which means "Holy Sacrifice."

In Arabic, it is called the "Qurban" which means sacrifice, as it is called in Syriac.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,213
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2010, 04:11:24 PM »
IMHO some good points have been made here, and some that I don't agree with.  

I would say that (besides the good points made here) there are two important reasons why the Orthodox liturgy is not referred to as a "sacrifice" very often.  One reason is to not get into a kind of erroneous thinking that every time liturgy is served, a new sacrifice is accomplished.  What does happen in the liturgy is that the one sacrifice that Christ made on Calvary is made present.  But more than this, (and this is the second, more important reason why we don't refer to the liturgy exclusively or even, in a sense, most eminently  as a sacrifice) the Divine Liturgy manifests in a very real way all of salvation history, even that which has not happened "yet".  The altar becomes both the tomb and the victorious bridal chamber of Christ.  What we receive in communion is not the dead and disfigured body of the Lord as found on Calvary, but the risen, glorified and transfigured Body and Blood of our Saviour.  As Orthodox Christians, we are often told that the resurrection does not exist without the crucifixion, and vice-versa.  The liturgy is the prime example of this.  Every Divine Liturgy has a fundamentally Paschal character, and this is one main reason why it is not served weekdays in Great Lent.  
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 10:10:42 PM by Pravoslavbob »
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.

Offline Subdeacon Michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 195
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2010, 04:15:05 PM »
Indeed, Pravoslavbob.  As we pray in the Liturgy:

Quote
Being mindful, therefore, of this saving commandment and of all that hath come to pass for us – the Cross, the grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Session at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming again; offering unto Thee thine own of thine own, on behalf of all, and for all, we praise Thee, we bless Thee, we give thanks unto Thee, O Lord, and we pray unto Thee, O our God.

M
'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt

Offline Fr.Kyrillos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2010, 04:17:51 PM »
But the concept of sacrifice includes other aspects apart from the offering of bread and wine in the liturgy. Again, according to the DL of St. Basil (Coptic Rite):

Quote
...we may offer up unto You a sacrifice of praise, glory, and great beauty, in Your sanctuary

Cleanse us from all sins which we have done willingly and unwillingly and grant to us to offer before you rational sacrifices and sacrifices of blessing.

O God, who accepted the sacrifice of Abraham, and prepared for him a lamb in place of Isaac, even so accept now at our hand, O our Lord, this sacrifice of incense, and send down upon us in return your abundant mercy and make us pure from all pollution of sin and make us worthy to serve in holiness and righteousness before Your goodness all the days of our life.

Fr. Kyrillos

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,213
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2010, 04:27:49 PM »
Indeed, Pravoslavbob.  As we pray in the Liturgy:

Quote
Being mindful, therefore, of this saving commandment and of all that hath come to pass for us – the Cross, the grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Session at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming again; offering unto Thee thine own of thine own, on behalf of all, and for all, we praise Thee, we bless Thee, we give thanks unto Thee, O Lord, and we pray unto Thee, O our God.

M


Yes, Subdcn M., I was partly thinking of this part of the liturgy when I wrote my last post.  (You took the words right out of my mouth, so to speak.  ;))
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 04:38:45 PM by Pravoslavbob »
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,213
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2010, 04:37:36 PM »
But the concept of sacrifice includes other aspects apart from the offering of bread and wine in the liturgy. Again, according to the DL of St. Basil (Coptic Rite):

Quote
...we may offer up unto You a sacrifice of praise, glory, and great beauty, in Your sanctuary

Cleanse us from all sins which we have done willingly and unwillingly and grant to us to offer before you rational sacrifices and sacrifices of blessing.

O God, who accepted the sacrifice of Abraham, and prepared for him a lamb in place of Isaac, even so accept now at our hand, O our Lord, this sacrifice of incense, and send down upon us in return your abundant mercy and make us pure from all pollution of sin and make us worthy to serve in holiness and righteousness before Your goodness all the days of our life.

Fr. Kyrillos

Father, I think the first two quotes you list here fundamentally do refer ultimately to the offering of bread and wine.  Otherwise, of course you are correct, but IMHO I think any sacrifice that we make as Christians has to be in the spirit of the Sacrifice of Christ, so I am not sure, from that standpoint,  what the benefit is in separating talk of sacrifices that are not explicitly linked to the one great Sacrifice of the Lord, especially when discussed in context of the Divine Liturgy.

Now that I think of it, though, I can see how it is very true that the offering of incense to the Lord is a prayer of sacrifice.  This is true in the context of other liturgical services as well.  So yes, I think you are right, there are other kinds of sacrifices.  In the context of the liturgy, though, I think they pale in comparison to the offering of the bread and the wine.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 04:42:12 PM by Pravoslavbob »
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.

Offline Fr.Kyrillos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2010, 04:47:13 PM »
But the concept of sacrifice includes other aspects apart from the offering of bread and wine in the liturgy. Again, according to the DL of St. Basil (Coptic Rite):

Quote
...we may offer up unto You a sacrifice of praise, glory, and great beauty, in Your sanctuary

Cleanse us from all sins which we have done willingly and unwillingly and grant to us to offer before you rational sacrifices and sacrifices of blessing.

O God, who accepted the sacrifice of Abraham, and prepared for him a lamb in place of Isaac, even so accept now at our hand, O our Lord, this sacrifice of incense, and send down upon us in return your abundant mercy and make us pure from all pollution of sin and make us worthy to serve in holiness and righteousness before Your goodness all the days of our life.

Fr. Kyrillos

Father, I think the first two quotes you list here fundamentally do refer ultimately to the offering of bread and wine.  Otherwise, of course you are correct, but IMHO I think any sacrifice that we make as Christians has to be in the spirit of the Sacrifice of Christ, so I am not sure, from that standpoint,  what the benefit is in separating talk of sacrifices that are not explicitly linked to the one great Sacrifice of the Lord, especially when discussed in context of the Divine Liturgy.

I would agree that ultimately the whole Divine Liturgy is a celebration of God's salvific works in Christ, and that we are entering into the One Sacrifice. I suppose I just wanted to reaffirm the acceptance of the word and concept of "sacrifice" as it relates to the Eucharist and Liturgy.  Our praising, our thanksgiving, our offering of incense...these are "sacrifices", though again I agree they are inseparable from gifts offered in bread and wine.

Fr. Kyrillos

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,528
    • Facebook
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2010, 04:50:01 PM »
One reason is to not get into a kind of erroneous thinking that every time liturgy is served, a new sacrifice is accomplished.

Well, with respect to ourselves and the gifts which we offer, I think it might make sense to view it as a new sacrifice. It is particularly with respect to the agency of Christ and His deification of our sacrifice that it becomes the One Sacrifice He made on the Cross.
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,213
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 04:50:37 PM »
But the concept of sacrifice includes other aspects apart from the offering of bread and wine in the liturgy. Again, according to the DL of St. Basil (Coptic Rite):

Quote
...we may offer up unto You a sacrifice of praise, glory, and great beauty, in Your sanctuary

Cleanse us from all sins which we have done willingly and unwillingly and grant to us to offer before you rational sacrifices and sacrifices of blessing.

O God, who accepted the sacrifice of Abraham, and prepared for him a lamb in place of Isaac, even so accept now at our hand, O our Lord, this sacrifice of incense, and send down upon us in return your abundant mercy and make us pure from all pollution of sin and make us worthy to serve in holiness and righteousness before Your goodness all the days of our life.

Fr. Kyrillos

Father, I think the first two quotes you list here fundamentally do refer ultimately to the offering of bread and wine.  Otherwise, of course you are correct, but IMHO I think any sacrifice that we make as Christians has to be in the spirit of the Sacrifice of Christ, so I am not sure, from that standpoint,  what the benefit is in separating talk of sacrifices that are not explicitly linked to the one great Sacrifice of the Lord, especially when discussed in context of the Divine Liturgy.

I would agree that ultimately the whole Divine Liturgy is a celebration of God's salvific works in Christ, and that we are entering into the One Sacrifice. I suppose I just wanted to reaffirm the acceptance of the word and concept of "sacrifice" as it relates to the Eucharist and Liturgy.  Our praising, our thanksgiving, our offering of incense...these are "sacrifices", though again I agree they are inseparable from gifts offered in bread and wine.

Fr. Kyrillos

Thank you for clarifying this, Father.  :)
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,061
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2010, 04:52:02 PM »
This is based on Anselmian satisfactionism, which is not based on an understanding of redemption as a solely juridical state - something external to us - and not something that actually transforms our being. It is quite alien to Orthodoxy.

And yet other Orthodox theologians have argued that indeed God's wrath is satisfied by Christ's sacrifice and death, but that the key difference in Orthodox thinking is that we believe that His sacrifice was satisfactory because His perfection absorbs all unrighteousness, not because He is punished in our place, as if God must inflict a certain amount of punishment for unrighteousness.

After thinking and praying about this "different" idea within Orthodoxy, I'm starting to believe that this whole dichotomy of East vs. West on this matter is completely false and constructed in the last century by St. Vladimir's theologians. The more I hear the different explanations of how this is supposed to "work", the more I see gnats being strained.

Holy Scripture gives us multiple images of Hell, i.e. being "cast into outer darkness", "thrown into the burning trash heap (Gehenna)", "tossed into the lake of fire and sulfur",or "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), which is the verse most commonly used now by Orthodox to support the notion that God's glory itself destroys us or deifies us.

In the same way, I think that the Christian witness describes the mystery of our redemption in multiple ways, using multiple images to try and get to the deeper meaning. I think that the Orthodox and non-Christians often present a caricature of God's appeased wrath, as if God were some bloodthirsty animal that needs and good mouthful of carnage to be satisfied for sins which are a juridical offense. I have met very few people who hold to some of the caricatured views presented on here which are meant to represent the Catholic and Protestant positions. There is a grain of truth to some of the criticism and Orthodox alternatives are sometimes helpful in filling out the picture in a more balanced way, but often the pendulum swings too far onto the alleged Orthodox side where some try to present God as devoid of wrath and justice, which is obscene and blasphemous.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 04:55:38 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,213
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2010, 04:55:11 PM »
....There is a grain of truth to some of the criticism and Orthodox alternatives are sometimes helpful in filling out the picture in a more balanced way, but sometimes the pendulum swings too far onto the Orthodox side where some try to present God as devoid of wrath and justice, which is obscene and blasphemous.

That's your opinion.
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,061
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2010, 05:07:46 PM »
....There is a grain of truth to some of the criticism and Orthodox alternatives are sometimes helpful in filling out the picture in a more balanced way, but sometimes the pendulum swings too far onto the Orthodox side where some try to present God as devoid of wrath and justice, which is obscene and blasphemous.

That's your opinion.

Which part specifically are you referring to? That some people present God as devoid of wrath, or that to do so is obscene and blasphemous?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 05:23:24 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,528
    • Facebook
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2010, 08:04:22 PM »
....There is a grain of truth to some of the criticism and Orthodox alternatives are sometimes helpful in filling out the picture in a more balanced way, but sometimes the pendulum swings too far onto the Orthodox side where some try to present God as devoid of wrath and justice, which is obscene and blasphemous.

That's your opinion.

Which part specifically are you referring to? That some people present God as devoid of wrath, or that to do so is obscene and blasphemous?

Depicting God as devoid of wrath in the Western Calvinist sense of wrath is actually a good thing.
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2010, 08:12:33 PM »
....There is a grain of truth to some of the criticism and Orthodox alternatives are sometimes helpful in filling out the picture in a more balanced way, but sometimes the pendulum swings too far onto the Orthodox side where some try to present God as devoid of wrath and justice, which is obscene and blasphemous.

That's your opinion.

Which part specifically are you referring to? That some people present God as devoid of wrath, or that to do so is obscene and blasphemous?

Depicting God as devoid of wrath in the Western Calvinist sense of wrath is actually a good thing.

Ya, can't say I'm a big fan of wrath and vengeance, myself. That's why I like the Orthodox! :)

Offline Rufus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,337
  • Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2010, 12:20:41 AM »
This is based on Anselmian satisfactionism, which is not based on an understanding of redemption as a solely juridical state - something external to us - and not something that actually transforms our being. It is quite alien to Orthodoxy.

And yet other Orthodox theologians have argued that indeed God's wrath is satisfied by Christ's sacrifice and death, but that the key difference in Orthodox thinking is that we believe that His sacrifice was satisfactory because His perfection absorbs all unrighteousness, not because He is punished in our place, as if God must inflict a certain amount of punishment for unrighteousness.

I am aware of the scriptural teaching that the wrath to come was diverted by Christ. Diversion and satisfaction are two very different things.

Quote
After thinking and praying about this "different" idea within Orthodoxy, I'm starting to believe that this whole dichotomy of East vs. West on this matter is completely false and constructed in the last century by St. Vladimir's theologians. The more I hear the different explanations of how this is supposed to "work", the more I see gnats being strained.

There is no valid human explanation for how it "works"; making up explanations for how it "works" is exactly how the West got itself into trouble in the forst place (especially the Protestant West).

Quote
Holy Scripture gives us multiple images of Hell, i.e. being "cast into outer darkness", "thrown into the burning trash heap (Gehenna)", "tossed into the lake of fire and sulfur",or "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), which is the verse most commonly used now by Orthodox to support the notion that God's glory itself destroys us or deifies us.

It is indeed odd how many modern teachers use unsubstantiated interpretations of verses to favor a certain view.

Quote
In the same way, I think that the Christian witness describes the mystery of our redemption in multiple ways, using multiple images to try and get to the deeper meaning. I think that the Orthodox and non-Christians often present a caricature of God's appeased wrath, as if God were some bloodthirsty animal that needs and good mouthful of carnage to be satisfied for sins which are a juridical offense. I have met very few people who hold to some of the caricatured views presented on here which are meant to represent the Catholic and Protestant positions. There is a grain of truth to some of the criticism and Orthodox alternatives are sometimes helpful in filling out the picture in a more balanced way, but often the pendulum swings too far onto the alleged Orthodox side where some try to present God as devoid of wrath and justice, which is obscene and blasphemous.

You and I are very, very lucky that God is not just, because otherwise we would have been destroyed in our iniquities long, long ago.

The ultimate revelation of God the Father is Jesus Christ. All preconceived notions, prooftexts, arguments, stubbornnesses, etc. are overruled by Jesus Christ. Did He ever get angry? Yes. He had dispassionate anger which, in the circimastances, was an act of love. There was no "justice" in the modern juridical sense of the word. He did not wait for anyone's unrighteousness to be "absorbed" before He forgave them.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 12:22:29 AM by Rufus »

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,061
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2010, 02:08:02 AM »
The ultimate revelation of God the Father is Jesus Christ. All preconceived notions, prooftexts, arguments, stubbornnesses, etc. are overruled by Jesus Christ. Did He ever get angry? Yes. He had dispassionate anger which, in the circimastances, was an act of love. There was no "justice" in the modern juridical sense of the word. He did not wait for anyone's unrighteousness to be "absorbed" before He forgave them.

Well, it sounds like you've got it all figured out, so I'll leave you to your business.

Offline elijahmaria

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,482
    • Irenikin: The Skete
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2010, 08:21:28 AM »
The difference, I think, is that we don't think of it as "working" by making satisfaction for our sins, just as we do not teach Christ's atonement in terms of satisfaction.

Precisely!

This is based on Anselmian satisfactionism, which is not based on an understanding of redemption as a solely juridical state - something external to us - and not something that actually transforms our being. It is quite alien to Orthodoxy.

The rest others have explained well.

M

Which religious organization does this?  I've been a Catholic for over 57 years and I have never heard anything like this taught in schools, in seminaries, in the liturgy itself...no Vatican documents, etc.

Why do you folks make this stuff up?  What purpose does it serve?

Mary

Offline elijahmaria

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,482
    • Irenikin: The Skete
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2010, 08:22:12 AM »
This is based on Anselmian satisfactionism, which is not based on an understanding of redemption as a solely juridical state - something external to us - and not something that actually transforms our being. It is quite alien to Orthodoxy.

And yet other Orthodox theologians have argued that indeed God's wrath is satisfied by Christ's sacrifice and death, but that the key difference in Orthodox thinking is that we believe that His sacrifice was satisfactory because His perfection absorbs all unrighteousness, not because He is punished in our place, as if God must inflict a certain amount of punishment for unrighteousness.

After thinking and praying about this "different" idea within Orthodoxy, I'm starting to believe that this whole dichotomy of East vs. West on this matter is completely false and constructed in the last century by St. Vladimir's theologians. The more I hear the different explanations of how this is supposed to "work", the more I see gnats being strained.

Holy Scripture gives us multiple images of Hell, i.e. being "cast into outer darkness", "thrown into the burning trash heap (Gehenna)", "tossed into the lake of fire and sulfur",or "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), which is the verse most commonly used now by Orthodox to support the notion that God's glory itself destroys us or deifies us.

In the same way, I think that the Christian witness describes the mystery of our redemption is multiple ways, using multiple images to try and get to the deeper meaning. I think that the Orthodox and non-Christians often present a caricature of God's appeased wrath, as if God were some bloodthirsty animal that needs and good mouthful of carnage to be satisfied for sins which are a juridical offense. I have met very few people who hold to some of the caricatured views presented on here which are meant to represent the Catholic and Protestant positions. There is a grain of truth to some of the criticism and Orthodox alternatives are sometimes helpful in filling out the picture in a more balanced way, but sometimes the pendulum swings too far onto the Orthodox side where some try to present God as devoid of wrath and justice, which is obscene and blasphemous.

Bless you my brother!!  Teach it!!

M.

Offline Rufus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,337
  • Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2010, 12:24:20 PM »
The difference, I think, is that we don't think of it as "working" by making satisfaction for our sins, just as we do not teach Christ's atonement in terms of satisfaction.

Precisely!

This is based on Anselmian satisfactionism, which is not based on an understanding of redemption as a solely juridical state - something external to us - and not something that actually transforms our being. It is quite alien to Orthodoxy.

The rest others have explained well.

M

Which religious organization does this?  I've been a Catholic for over 57 years and I have never heard anything like this taught in schools, in seminaries, in the liturgy itself...no Vatican documents, etc.

Why do you folks make this stuff up?  What purpose does it serve?

Mary

I am under the impression that in the Roman Catholic Church, the Anselmian theory of satisfaction is not meant to be taken as absolute, but rather as a particuar way of presenting the expiation on the Cross. In my view Anselm's teaching is seriously deficient, but that is beside the point.

There are, however, Protestant groups that think of juridical satisfaction as some kind of absolute dogma and consider every other view of the atonement "false."

Offline Altar Server

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 980
  • Holy Father Seraphim, Pray to God for us!
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2010, 07:16:00 PM »
Coming from a Catholic background I had the same question. When I asked my priest he said that it was a sacrifice.
All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!

Offline Hermogenes

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 493
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2010, 05:35:16 PM »
The difference, I think, is that we don't think of it as "working" by making satisfaction for our sins, just as we do not teach Christ's atonement in terms of satisfaction.

Precisely!

This is based on Anselmian satisfactionism, which is not based on an understanding of redemption as a solely juridical state - something external to us - and not something that actually transforms our being. It is quite alien to Orthodoxy.

The rest others have explained well.

M
Anselmian satisfactionism--what a mouthful! LOL

Offline Hermogenes

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 493
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2010, 05:45:16 PM »
But the concept of sacrifice includes other aspects apart from the offering of bread and wine in the liturgy. Again, according to the DL of St. Basil (Coptic Rite):

Quote
...we may offer up unto You a sacrifice of praise, glory, and great beauty, in Your sanctuary

Cleanse us from all sins which we have done willingly and unwillingly and grant to us to offer before you rational sacrifices and sacrifices of blessing.

O God, who accepted the sacrifice of Abraham, and prepared for him a lamb in place of Isaac, even so accept now at our hand, O our Lord, this sacrifice of incense, and send down upon us in return your abundant mercy and make us pure from all pollution of sin and make us worthy to serve in holiness and righteousness before Your goodness all the days of our life.

Fr. Kyrillos

Father, I think the first two quotes you list here fundamentally do refer ultimately to the offering of bread and wine.  Otherwise, of course you are correct, but IMHO I think any sacrifice that we make as Christians has to be in the spirit of the Sacrifice of Christ, so I am not sure, from that standpoint,  what the benefit is in separating talk of sacrifices that are not explicitly linked to the one great Sacrifice of the Lord, especially when discussed in context of the Divine Liturgy.

I would agree that ultimately the whole Divine Liturgy is a celebration of God's salvific works in Christ, and that we are entering into the One Sacrifice. I suppose I just wanted to reaffirm the acceptance of the word and concept of "sacrifice" as it relates to the Eucharist and Liturgy.  Our praising, our thanksgiving, our offering of incense...these are "sacrifices", though again I agree they are inseparable from gifts offered in bread and wine.

Fr. Kyrillos
I am not a theologian by any stretch; yet it seems to me that this “entering into” is what makes the Orthodox liturgical experience so powerful. The Catholic Mass has always felt to me like a commemoration of the sacrifice, as opposed to the sacrifice itself. And the Catholic experience has also always felt to me as if it is more centered on Calvary, without as much of a sense of the fulfillment of Pascha. As I say, I’m no theologian, so this is mostly based on my own visceral experience of the two liturgies.

Offline Hermogenes

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 493
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2010, 05:48:24 PM »
....There is a grain of truth to some of the criticism and Orthodox alternatives are sometimes helpful in filling out the picture in a more balanced way, but sometimes the pendulum swings too far onto the Orthodox side where some try to present God as devoid of wrath and justice, which is obscene and blasphemous.

That's your opinion.
I like wrath and vengeance just fine! I just don’t like John Calvin!

Which part specifically are you referring to? That some people present God as devoid of wrath, or that to do so is obscene and blasphemous?

Depicting God as devoid of wrath in the Western Calvinist sense of wrath is actually a good thing.

Ya, can't say I'm a big fan of wrath and vengeance, myself. That's why I like the Orthodox! :)

Offline Dart

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 655
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2010, 08:34:16 PM »
Why is Roman Catholic heresy yet again being discussed in the Orthodox section?

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2010, 01:37:46 AM »
Why is Roman Catholic heresy yet again being discussed in the Orthodox section?
This discussion is pertaining to Liturgy, hence why it is in the Liturgy section. If you do not like the topic you are free not to participate in the discussion. Please only respond if you have something to contribute to the topic.

Arimethea
-Liturgy Section Moderator
Joseph

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2010, 08:26:27 AM »
The difference, I think, is that we don't think of it as "working" by making satisfaction for our sins, just as we do not teach Christ's atonement in terms of satisfaction.

Precisely!

This is based on Anselmian satisfactionism, which is not based on an understanding of redemption as a solely juridical state - something external to us - and not something that actually transforms our being. It is quite alien to Orthodoxy.

The rest others have explained well.

M

Which religious organization does this?  I've been a Catholic for over 57 years and I have never heard anything like this taught in schools, in seminaries, in the liturgy itself...no Vatican documents, etc.

Why do you folks make this stuff up?  What purpose does it serve?

Mary

You have never encountered Anselmian Satisfactionism being taught or you haven't heard this version of it being taught?

Offline Sleeper

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,305
  • On hiatus for the foreseeable future.
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2010, 12:58:45 PM »
The ultimate revelation of God the Father is Jesus Christ. All preconceived notions, prooftexts, arguments, stubbornnesses, etc. are overruled by Jesus Christ. Did He ever get angry? Yes. He had dispassionate anger which, in the circimastances, was an act of love. There was no "justice" in the modern juridical sense of the word. He did not wait for anyone's unrighteousness to be "absorbed" before He forgave them.

Brilliant!

Offline Benjamin the Red

  • Recovering Calvinist
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,601
  • Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2010, 01:27:38 PM »
IIRC, in the Divine Liturgy, after the priest intones, "That we may offer the Holy Oblation in peace..." the choir responses, "A mercy of peace, a sacrifce of praise!"

It is the bloodless sacrifice. Quite plainly.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,274
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2010, 01:33:33 PM »
IIRC, in the Divine Liturgy, after the priest intones, "That we may offer the Holy Oblation in peace..." the choir responses, "A mercy of peace, a sacrifce of praise!"

It is the bloodless sacrifice. Quite plainly.
Yeah, we call it an unbloody sacrifice as well.
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline elijahmaria

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,482
    • Irenikin: The Skete
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2010, 02:38:54 PM »
The difference, I think, is that we don't think of it as "working" by making satisfaction for our sins, just as we do not teach Christ's atonement in terms of satisfaction.

Precisely!

This is based on Anselmian satisfactionism, which is not based on an understanding of redemption as a solely juridical state - something external to us - and not something that actually transforms our being. It is quite alien to Orthodoxy.

The rest others have explained well.

M



Which religious organization does this?  I've been a Catholic for over 57 years and I have never heard anything like this taught in schools, in seminaries, in the liturgy itself...no Vatican documents, etc.

Why do you folks make this stuff up?  What purpose does it serve?

Mary

You have never encountered Anselmian Satisfactionism being taught or you haven't heard this version of it being taught?

 :laugh:  I read the book AND saw the movie.   THAT I can recognize....but what is going on here are figments of lurid imaginations...protestant mostly, I presume.

Offline Rufus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,337
  • Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2010, 06:49:53 PM »
The difference, I think, is that we don't think of it as "working" by making satisfaction for our sins, just as we do not teach Christ's atonement in terms of satisfaction.

Precisely!

This is based on Anselmian satisfactionism, which is not based on an understanding of redemption as a solely juridical state - something external to us - and not something that actually transforms our being. It is quite alien to Orthodoxy.

The rest others have explained well.

M



Which religious organization does this?  I've been a Catholic for over 57 years and I have never heard anything like this taught in schools, in seminaries, in the liturgy itself...no Vatican documents, etc.

Why do you folks make this stuff up?  What purpose does it serve?

Mary

You have never encountered Anselmian Satisfactionism being taught or you haven't heard this version of it being taught?

 :laugh:  I read the book AND saw the movie.   THAT I can recognize....but what is going on here are figments of lurid imaginations...protestant mostly, I presume.

No, Protestants believe very literally in propitiation of Divine Wrath through a substitutionary death penalty, so it's not a stretch to interpret Anselm's version of it the same way. I'm aware that the RC doctrine of satisfaction is more subtle and probably perfectly valid, but no one here is being rash by assuming that you believe the same as certain Protestants. Even most protestants would assume you believe roughly the same as they do about why the Cross was effecacious.

Offline Rufus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,337
  • Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2010, 06:54:20 PM »
IIRC, in the Divine Liturgy, after the priest intones, "That we may offer the Holy Oblation in peace..." the choir responses, "A mercy of peace, a sacrifce of praise!"

It is the bloodless sacrifice. Quite plainly.

A lot of the priest's prayers talk about it as a sacrifice. Things you learn from being an acolyte...

Offline Dart

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 655
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2010, 10:37:18 AM »
The sacrifice being referred to is the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross and then His resurection. The Liturgy is not a sacrifice but merely our participation in Christ's sacrifice.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,274
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2010, 12:39:01 PM »
The sacrifice being referred to is the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross and then His resurection. The Liturgy is not a sacrifice but merely our participation in Christ's sacrifice.
Wouldn't you rather say that it's not a new sacrifice, but still a sacrifice, by way of being a participation in the one sacrifice?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 12:39:31 PM by Papist »
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Rufus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,337
  • Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2010, 10:01:03 PM »
The sacrifice being referred to is the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross and then His resurection. The Liturgy is not a sacrifice but merely our participation in Christ's sacrifice.
Wouldn't you rather say that it's not a new sacrifice, but still a sacrifice, by way of being a participation in the one sacrifice?

You both have a point. The Eucharist is one and the same as Christ's sacrifice in the Cross, as stated by the Synod of Blachernae; consequently, it is rightly called a sacrifice.

Offline Father H

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,667
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Nea Roma
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2010, 11:13:11 PM »
The sacrifice being referred to is the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross and then His resurection. The Liturgy is not a sacrifice but merely our participation in Christ's sacrifice.

You have no idea what you are talking about.  You speak in such absolutes and yet you are so wrong.  I have remained silent on so many of your uneducated claims in other posts but cannot on this one.  The belief that the Liturgy is a sacrifice is not only upheld by the Synod of Vlachernae in 1157, but is also a required dogma of the Church stated in the Synodikon of Orthodoxy.   Read St. Nicholas Cavasilas who does a wonderful job explaining how the Liturgy is a sacrifice.   Then come back and give an informed opinion.   

Offline Ionnis

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,077
Re: Differences between Catholic Mass & Orthodox Divine Liturgy
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2010, 11:55:41 PM »
The sacrifice being referred to is the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross and then His resurection. The Liturgy is not a sacrifice but merely our participation in Christ's sacrifice.

Wow.  Unbelievable.
"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope