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Author Topic: Who are the Notable Orthodox of Jewish Origin?  (Read 3532 times) Average Rating: 5
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rakovsky
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« on: October 14, 2010, 01:45:55 PM »

Quote
Hebrew Catholics hold controversial, closed conference
11 October 2010, The Underground
http://theundergroundsite.com/index.php/2010/10/hebrew-catholics-hold-controversial-closed-conference-2-13990

The Association of Hebrew Catholics held recently a three-day closed conference at the Renaissance St. Louis Airport Hotel... they did however provide CDs about the conference when it was over, St. Louis Today reported.
...the AHC is also cited in the archdiocese website as an official organization, The Jewish Journal said.

The stated purpose of the conference was to “preserve the identity and heritage of Catholics of Jewish origin within the Church.”

In their website, the AHC describes itself as a lay apostolate comprised of Catholics both of Jewish and non-Jewish background. Their goal is to preserve the heritage and identity of the people of Israel by gathering together Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, the website said. AHC president David Moss sees no problem with this saying, “Jews outside the church need to see a Jewish reality inside the church..."

Russian speaking Catholics?Huh?
Quote
Jesuit Fr David Neuhaus is a convert from Judaism to the Catholic Church and now serves as vicar for the tiny community of Hebrew and Russian speaking Catholics with the Jerusalem Patriarchate.
http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=429158
The wording in this article shows that the Vatican apparently considers its own "Jerusalem Patriarchate" AKA the Latin Jerusalem Patriarchate, forced on the Holy Land by 12th century Crusaders, to be "the" real Jerusalem Patriarchate. So much for respecting Orthodox Patriarchs' legitimacy.

Quote
Notable Catholics of Jewish origin
This list only includes people from after the East-West Schism

St. Angelus of Jerusalem
St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) - Philosopher, Carmelite nun, martyr, and saint of the Catholic Church, who died in Auschwitz.
etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics

Is there a list of Notable Christians from before the Schism, and Orthodox afterwards, of Jewish Origin, especially in the HolyLand/Israel/Palestine?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 01:54:33 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2010, 02:07:33 PM »

Believe it or not, there actually are and have been Russians who decided that communion with Rome was important, most notably Nicholas Tolstoy, who entered into that communion entirely of his own volition.
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2010, 03:03:19 PM »

Well, obviously the first hundred years of the Church of Jerusalem.  Tongue
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 03:03:46 PM »

I could name at least twelve Orthodox Christians of Jewish origin.... Wink
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 03:04:32 PM »

Well, obviously the first hundred years of the Church of Jerusalem.  Tongue

I was going to say Jesus, but I figured I'd made enough jokes-with-a-point around here over the last week.  Cool
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 03:27:25 PM »

Two from the Nicene and post-Nicene era that come to mind off the top of my head are St. Romanos the Melode (from a family of Jewish cantors) and St. Epiphanios of Cypros (who began as an Egyptian monk, but was so erudite that the brethren advised him to go to Alexandria and become a bishop).
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 03:52:41 PM »

Father Nicolae Steinhardt converted to Orthodoxy while imprisoned by the Communists.
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Elders/Romanian/Fr._Nicolae_Steinhardt/
http://nicolaesteinhardt.wordpress.com/in-english/

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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 04:11:55 PM »

Fr. Alexander Men
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 10:31:45 AM »

Two from the Nicene and post-Nicene era that come to mind off the top of my head are St. Romanos the Melode (from a family of Jewish cantors) and St. Epiphanios of Cypros (who began as an Egyptian monk, but was so erudite that the brethren advised him to go to Alexandria and become a bishop).
From my knowledge of Judaism, based on what I have read by Jacob Taubes, Jewish philosopher, (professor at the Free Univ. of Berlin, Harvard, Columbia and Princeton) the institution of cantor in the synagogue is a modern invention of German Jews who wanted to copy Protestants. It is a fact, that the Jews do not have a priesthood since the fall of the Jerusalem Temple.

To add to this thread:
Lev Shestov
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 10:37:17 AM »

Two from the Nicene and post-Nicene era that come to mind off the top of my head are St. Romanos the Melode (from a family of Jewish cantors) and St. Epiphanios of Cypros (who began as an Egyptian monk, but was so erudite that the brethren advised him to go to Alexandria and become a bishop).
From my knowledge of Judaism, based on what I have read by Jacob Taubes, Jewish philosopher, (professor at the Free Univ. of Berlin, Harvard, Columbia and Princeton) the institution of cantor in the synagogue is a modern invention of German Jews who wanted to copy Protestants. It is a fact, that the Jews do not have a priesthood since the fall of the Jerusalem Temple.

To add to this thread:
Lev Shestov

Who said cantors were priests?

Someone in the synagogue had to lead the congregation is singing the hymns.  Perhaps it wasn't a defined position of "cantor" like we know it today, but I think the point was that St. Roman's family was made up of good singers, hence his propensity for crafting the beautiful hymns he left behind.
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 10:44:26 AM »

Well, obviously the first hundred years of the Church of Jerusalem.  Tongue

I was going to say Jesus, but I figured I'd made enough jokes-with-a-point around here over the last week.  Cool

You beat me to it.  I would say that he is the most notable Orthodox of Jewish origin.
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2010, 10:51:56 AM »

Fr. James Bernstein:
http://www.surprisedbychrist.com/
http://www.conciliarpress.com/reading_room/books_bernstein_surprised
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/surprised_by_christ
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 11:23:54 AM »

Fr. Alexander Men

He didn't last too long though did he?

Lev Gillet is another.

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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 11:26:18 AM »

Fr. Alexander Men

He didn't last too long though did he?


What do you mean?  He was Orthodox his entire life and spent 30 years as a priest before he was murdered (martyred?). 
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 01:17:45 PM »

Fr. Alexander Men

He didn't last too long though did he?


What do you mean?  He was Orthodox his entire life and spent 30 years as a priest before he was murdered (martyred?). 

Dear Schultz,

I wasn't actually thinking in terms of actual length of days on earth but, as with Gillet, Father Alexander seems to have fallen into disfavor for some of his teachings and understandings of Orthodoxy.  So that he may have been a convert but what he was as an Orthodox believer has tended to be marginalized.

And then, of course, there is the fact that he was murdered.

M.
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2010, 04:43:41 PM »

Ok, someone help me here, as when I read it, it must have been a decade ago or more.  I think it was Fr. Men, but perhaps someone else, who enumerated the amount of Orthodox Christians in Russian and Ukraine to be of some Jewish origin.  I looked in my two works by Fr. Men and could not find it, so I am thinking perhaps it was someone else.  As I recall, when I remember seeing it, it was an astoundingly large number, and could be partially identified by the surname. 
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2010, 04:54:22 PM »

Fr. Alexander Winogradsky of the Jerusalem Patriarchate.
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« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2011, 05:58:02 PM »

Deusveritasest, Asteriktos, Fabio Leite, and Punch:

You are right, and yes it is a good pun when you write:

Well, obviously the first hundred years of the Church of Jerusalem.  Tongue

Quote
I was going to say Jesus, but I figured I'd made enough jokes-with-a-point around here over the last week.

Quote
I could name at least twelve Orthodox Christians of Jewish origin....

Quote
You beat me to it.  I would say that he is the most notable Orthodox of Jewish origin.

And if I roll up my eyes  Roll Eyes and say "Sigh", then it becomes more funny:

me: "C'mon guys, I'm looking for a serious answer."

response: But we are serious, who is more notable than Jesus and the 12 apostles among Orthodox Christians.

me: Yes, um... OK... but I was hoping that you would make a longer list, because I asked more specifically:

Quote
Is there a list of Notable Christians from before the Schism, and Orthodox afterwards, of Jewish Origin, especially in the HolyLand/Israel/Palestine?

And your list isn't all-encompassing for the notable Christians, since there are others like Joseph of Tiberias. By "notable", I meant famous in Orthodoxy.

I admit that the question poses some possible linguistic ways to quibble over the answer.

Be Cool.  Smiley

Cymbyz:

Thanks for mentioning:
Quote
Two from the Nicene and post-Nicene era that come to mind off the top of my head are St. Romanos the Melode (from a family of Jewish cantors) and St. Epiphanios of Cypros (who began as an Egyptian monk, but was so erudite that the brethren advised him to go to Alexandria and become a bishop).

From the information on Wikipedia about Romanos, it appears that he wasn't a resident of Palestine:
Quote
he was born to a Jewish family in either Emesa (modern-day Homs) or Damascus in Syria. He was baptized as a young boy (though whether or not his parents also converted is uncertain). Having moved to Berytus (Beirut), he was ordained a deacon in the Church of the Resurrection there. He later moved to Constantinople during the reign of the emperor Anastasius

Thanks for mentioning about "St. Epiphanios of Cypros (who began as an Egyptian monk, but was so erudite that the brethren advised him to go to Alexandria and become a bishop)." He certainly qualifies for my blog about Christianity in the Holy land (rakovskii.livejournal.com) Smiley

I will make a summary about Epiphanius in the next message.

Peace



synLeszka:

It's interesting that you write:
Quote
From my knowledge of Judaism, based on what I have read by Jacob Taubes, Jewish philosopher, (professor at the Free Univ. of Berlin, Harvard, Columbia and Princeton) the institution of cantor in the synagogue is a modern invention of German Jews who wanted to copy Protestants. It is a fact, that the Jews do not have a priesthood since the fall of the Jerusalem Temple.
Your last sentence is irrelevant, because a cantor isn't necessarily the same as a priest.

There appears to be a big problem with the statement you made, because the internet says:
Quote
The Chazzan is defined by the Encyclopedia Judaica as, "The Cantor officiating in a Synagogue used in this specific sense since the Middle Ages." Before the Middle Ages, the Talmud describes various duties performed the "Chazzan Ha-Kenesset" (Cantor of the Synagogue) such as blowing a ram's horn to announce the commencement of the Sabbath and Festivals. He was not, however, regularly required to chant the Synagogue Service but could do so by request. In Talmudic times (from the first half of the third century CE to the sixth century) there was no permanent Cantor, and any member of the congregation might be asked to lead the public prayers. http://www.templesanjose.org/JudaismInfo/Torah/cantor.htm
One possibility is that the author you referred to was referring to a specific kind of cantor position, as defined by his duties, that was created in the modern era.

Based on the quote I cited, Romanus the Melode's family could still be from a kind of Jewish cantor.

You made a good mention about the philosopher Lev Shestov (Born February 13, 1866 Kiev, Russian Empire; Died November 19, 1938 (aged 72) Paris, France)

Zdrawe tebe.



ma2000:

Thanks for mentioning:
"Father Nicolae Steinhardt converted to Orthodoxy while imprisoned by the Communists." It sounds like he had a colorful life, although he didn't emigrate to the Holy Land.

In an interesting mention about WWII, his biography in Wikipedia says:
Quote
In 1939 Steinhardt worked as an editor for Revista Fundaţiilor Regale (a government-sponsored literary magazine), losing his job between 1940 and 1944, during the ethnic cleansing under the Iron Guard regime (the National Legionary State) and the Ion Antonescu one. Despite his problems with the latter, he would forgive Antonescu, and even praise him for allegedly having saved several hundred thousands Jews (which he claimed had occurred after a face-to-face debate with Adolf Hitler at Berchtesgaden).

Regards



FatherHLL,

You made a good mention of Father Men.

His biography from Wikipedia is interesting, mentioning:
Quote
" He was baptized at seven months along with his mother in the banned Catacomb Church, a branch of the Russian Orthodox Church that refused to cooperate with the Soviet authorities.[2] Men was expelled from college in 1958 due to his religious beliefs, and in 1960 was ordained a priest upon graduating from the Leningrad Theological Seminary."
The quote here goes against the idea that the Moscow Patriarchate was merely an arm of the state, because here a person who belonged to a Catacomb movement and was expelled was yet accepted at another insitution.

Also, the story about his axe-killing is strange. It is hard to guess what happened, since it was in 1990 when the Soviet government was at the end of its transition to the Russian government, and posed practically far less negative political importance compared to earlier years, plus he is something of a hero, and the country is hardly ideological against religion anymore...

I believe you when you write:
Quote
Ok, someone help me here, as when I read it, it must have been a decade ago or more.  I think it was Fr. Men, but perhaps someone else, who enumerated the amount of Orthodox Christians in Russian and Ukraine to be of some Jewish origin.  I looked in my two works by Fr. Men and could not find it, so I am thinking perhaps it was someone else.  As I recall, when I remember seeing it, it was an astoundingly large number, and could be partially identified by the surname.

I don't know of the specific list you mention, but on the internet it says that about 300,000-400,000 Orthodox Christians of Jewish descent live in the Holy Land as immigrants based on the Israeli government's law of return that gives citizenship to immigrants of recent Jewish descent. It certainly is a large number of people, the size of a medium-small size city.

Kind Regards.



Schultz,
You were right when you asked rhetorically:
Quote
Who said cantors were priests?
No one in the forum said this before synLeszka asked.

I also makes sense when you write:
Quote
Someone in the synagogue had to lead the congregation is singing the hymns.  Perhaps it wasn't a defined position of "cantor" like we know it today, but I think the point was that St. Roman's family was made up of good singers, hence his propensity for crafting the beautiful hymns he left behind.
However, from the quote I made to synLeszka above, it appears that such a role existed in Romanus' time, although I'm uncertain how official it was.

Also, your statement is in a way correct:
Quote
What do you mean?  He was Orthodox his entire life and spent 30 years as a priest before he was murdered (martyred?).
He "lasted" a long time in Orthodoxy for his life, because he stayed in the church since he was 7 months old. Although his life didn't last long, may he live again.

Peace, bro.



88Devin12:

You made a good mention of Fr. James Bernstein, because he is prominent about Orthodox in America on the topic of Judaism in relation to Orthodoxy and vice-verse.



Elijahmaria:

You asked about Fr. Men:
Quote
He didn't last too long though did he?
Fr. Men was baptized at 7 months old in 1935 and died in 1990, making about 55 years, which doesn't seem "too long", as you say. God Bless Him.

You made a good mention of Lev Gillet. His biography on Wikipedia says: "In 1938 he left Paris to settle in London, within the framework of the Fellowship of Saint Alban and Saint Sergius, an ecumenical organization dedicated to the bringing together of the Anglican and Orthodox churches."

You wrote:
Quote
I wasn't actually thinking in terms of actual length of days on earth but, as with Gillet, Father Alexander seems to have fallen into disfavor for some of his teachings and understandings of Orthodoxy.  So that he may have been a convert but what he was as an Orthodox believer has tended to be marginalized.
Whether or not someone's teachings and understandings of Orthodoxy fall into disfavor has nothing to do with whether someone is "lasting" within Orthodoxy, unless the person is excommunicated or leaves the church because of those reasons, neither of which instance applies to either Gillet or Fr. Men.

You added:
Quote
And then, of course, there is the fact that he was murdered.
However, this is also irrelevant to your question, because you specified that you weren't "actually thinking in terms of actual length of days on earth"- unless you mean that he was murdered because of his religious ideas. I believe that he wasn't murdered for his religious ideas, because the Orthodox Church today very rarely if ever directly and intentionally performs killing, besides that such an act would be a very high sin prohibited by and for the Church. Plus, I have never heard of the Church as an institution killing anyone intentionally in the 19th-21st century, or an Orthodox religious leader killing anyone for religious reasons in the 19th-21st century.

Take care



AMM,

You made a good mention of Fr. Alexander Winogradsky of the Jerusalem Patriarchate, whose total writings on his blogs and websites seems prodigious. He is also friendly to write to and appears a kind person, may the LORD bless him.
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« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2011, 05:59:46 PM »

Epiphanius of Salamis, the "Oracle of Palestine"

Wikipedia mentions in its entry of Epiphanius of Salamis (ca. 310–320 – 403):
Quote
bishop of Salamis and metropolitan of Cyprus... He was born into a Christian family in the small settlement of Besanduk, which is near Eleutheropolis, Palestine [1] ,... He returned to Palestine around 333, when he was still a young man, and he founded a monastery at Ad nearby... He was ordained a priest, and lived and studied as superior of the monastery in Ad that he founded for thirty years and gained much skill and knowledge in that position. In that position he gained the ability to speak in several tongues including Hebrew, Syriac, ...  the Panarion is a valuable source of information on the Christian church of the fourth century. It is also an important source regarding the early Jewish gospels such as the Gospel according to the Hebrews circulating among the Ebionites, the Nazarenes as well as the followers of Cerinthus and Merinthus.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphanius_of_Salamis)
This sounds a little weird phonetically, because "Ad" means Hades in Russian.

Epiphanius writes in "On Weights and Measures" about the time when Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem:
Quote
"Aquila, while he was in Jerusalem, also saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem"
(http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/bk04.html)

Epiphanius also wrote:
Quote
Hadrian found the temple of God throdden down and the whole city devastated, save for a few houses and the very small church of God, where the disciples, when they had returned after the Savior had ascended from the Mount of Olives, went to the upper room. For there it had been built, that is, in that portion of Zion that escaped destruction, together with blocks of houses in the neighborhood of Zion and the seven synagogues that alone remained standing in Zion, like solitary huts, one of which remained until the time of Maximinus, the bishop and the emperor Constantine, like a booth in a vineyard[1], as it is written.

(http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/bk04.html)
Here, he refers to Isaiah 1.8 with the words "booth in a vineyard." He gives the image of Zion like a vineyard at the time of Maximus, and the image of the only one of the 7 synagogues left standing. He compares the lone synagogue left standing as a booth in a vineyard. He doesn't explicitly say that the situation is a flfillment of the verse, rather he simply says that it's "like" the verse, so here Epiphanius is simply engaging in literary poetic prose. Also, he distinguishes the Jewish Christian apostles' house of worship, which would be in the style of a synagogue, from the other 7 synagogues, which leaves open whether the synagogue standing today that is now identified as the Upper Room is actually the Upper Room synagogue or one of the 7 synagogues that remained in Maximus' time. On the other hand, Epiphanius was writing centuries after the event, so he could be mistaken in distinguishing the apostles' synagogue from the 7 standing synagogues.


"He returned into Palestine about the year 333, and built a monastery near the place of his birth."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/epiphan.htm

He is also known as "the Oracle of Palestine"
Dictionary of saints, John J. Delaney - 2005, p. 202


Epiphanius

The site here has a few stories about him that sound like midrash-allegories about how Epiphanius became Christian:
http://www.roca.org/OA/147-148/147m.htm
For example, it says: "Epiphanius was soon baptized, together with his sister. At the Baptism, Epiphanius' face became radiant and a crown was seen resting on his head." Well, it could mean that the water glistened on his hair in a ring like a crown, and somewhat observed this and poetically thought it was like a crown.

The entry in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia says:
"A legend asserts that, before his conversion, Epiphanius was adopted by a rich Jew named Tryphon, who died soon afterward, leaving his fortune to Epiphanius."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=430&letter=E#ixzz1GzBFhnQR
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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2011, 06:59:00 PM »

Well, actually, rakovsky, I wasn't referring to just the Apostles. A Jewish Christian church of Jerusalem survived until about 135, a few generations beyond the Apostles themselves.
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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2011, 08:22:57 PM »

Fr. Alexander Men

He didn't last too long though did he?

Lev Gillet is another.


News to me.  And if Fr. Men''s popularity didn't last, what would that mean?  How many priests serve their lives out in anonymity?

Lev Gillet hasn't fallen into oblivion either. His shortcomings are just well known.
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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2011, 08:30:45 PM »

I was told by a Cyprianite monk that their Synod (in Resistance) is often called the Sanhedrin because so many of their bishops are of Jewish origin.
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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2011, 08:38:51 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
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« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2011, 08:39:47 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.
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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2011, 08:46:48 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.

So I can imagine the Jerusalem rite was THE Jewish rite, but in a Christian setting?
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« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2011, 08:54:13 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.

So I can imagine the Jerusalem rite was THE Jewish rite, but in a Christian setting?
Yes, that was the case everywhere.  The Church had first grown in the synagogues throughout the empire and beyond.  Hence how every DL has a Liturgy of the Word, which was the synagouge service incorporated with the Liturgy of the Eucharist which had been done in homes, and which replaced the cult in the Temple.
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2011, 10:40:53 PM »

I was told by a Cyprianite monk that their Synod (in Resistance) is often called the Sanhedrin because so many of their bishops are of Jewish origin.

LOL. I'm a little suprised that there doesn't seem to be any conspiracy theories about how Jews are trying to destroy the Church from within by creating schisms.
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2011, 01:13:36 AM »

Wasn't the late Metropolitan Anthony Bloom from a Jewish family?
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« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2011, 09:51:01 AM »

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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2011, 10:14:51 AM »

Wasn't the late Metropolitan Anthony Bloom from a Jewish family?

From what I understand about the late Metropolitan, he was an atheist in his youth.
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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2011, 01:36:01 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it. I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.
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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2011, 03:50:05 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.

So I can imagine the Jerusalem rite was THE Jewish rite, but in a Christian setting?

I'm certainly no expert but I think most academics (if you trust academics) don't think there's any evidence for a single rite to begin with but rather see a large amount of diversity from the earliest layers of the historical record.
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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2011, 03:52:42 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?
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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2011, 03:56:07 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it. I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.

It's also possible that an extant rite based off the ancient Jerusalem rite(s) has maintained a more archaic form in some places than a rite that has had a more direct evolution from the ancient Jerusalem rite.
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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2011, 08:36:19 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?

I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  Wink

Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?
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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2011, 10:06:25 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?

I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  Wink

Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?

Here are the recommendations I got from a professor of liturgics at the University of Oslo...

Quote
...Bradshaw's elementary
introduction, "Early Christian Worship" (1996), is a good place to
start, and also return to later even when one has learned more - sober
and basic. Another is Marcel Metzger, "History of the Liturgy"
 
Concerning the Eucharist, Bradshaw's "Eucharistic Origins" is standard.
Baptism: Maxwell Johnson, "The Rites of Christian Initiation"
Concerning the Daily Office: Robert Taft, "The Liturgy of the Hours in
East and West"
Church Year: Thomas Talley, "Origins of the Church Year"...

Edit: E.P. Sanders "Judaism: Practice and Belief 66 BCE- 63 CE" is a good intro. to Judaism at the time of the birth of Christianity as well.  It covers all parts of Jewish life though, not just liturgics.
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« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2011, 10:37:48 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?   
So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it. I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.
I would disagree with this.   All local rites, whether Chalcedonian or not, went through a period of standardization giving us what we have today. The west Syrian rite has been "standardized" and trimmed to a point in which you can hardly tell the difference in about 8 different anaphoras.   Whereas the "Byzantine" standardization was to basically leave the anaphoras themselves alone, but to make uniform prescribed litanies (for example, the prothesis litany belonged originally to the Caesarean liturgy, i.e. St. Basil, and was added later to the "liturgy of the Apostles" aka St. John Chrysostom, and the triple litany ektenia to both at a later time), the west Syrian rite amended the anaphoras of various liturgies to make them of standard length and replaced certain distinctive elements with uniform clauses.   The Byzantine standardization let the anaphoras (Jerusalemite, Syrian and Caesarean; i.e. James, Chrysostom and Basil) remain essentially "as is" in length and substance, with only the intro, mentioning of the diocesan hierarch, and the elevation being standardized, not seeing the need to shorten one or lengthen another to conform to the rest, but added "conforming litanies" to the rest of the liturgy, the standard antiphonal intro before the entrance, etc.   However, the current Syrian usage does allow us to see elements of the Ante-Caesarian rite, for example, although shortened from their original form.   
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« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2011, 10:41:36 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?
I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  Wink
Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?

Depends upon how deep you want to go.  Brightman's collection is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology."  However, it is rather expensive.  When I purchased it years back it was $80.  Also, with this source, only some of the liturgies are translated into English, so you have to know your Greek. 
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« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2011, 05:10:45 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.

So I can imagine the Jerusalem rite was THE Jewish rite, but in a Christian setting?

I'm certainly no expert but I think most academics (if you trust academics) don't think there's any evidence for a single rite to begin with but rather see a large amount of diversity from the earliest layers of the historical record.

Good point. Some have said that the anaphora was improvised by the presider for about the first two hundred years, and if true, that would certainly support the idea of a great diversity in the early Liturgy.
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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2011, 05:12:06 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it. I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.

It's also possible that an extant rite based off the ancient Jerusalem rite(s) has maintained a more archaic form in some places than a rite that has had a more direct evolution from the ancient Jerusalem rite.

True enough.
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« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2011, 05:47:52 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?
I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  Wink
Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?

Depends upon how deep you want to go.  Brightman's collection is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology."  However, it is rather expensive.  When I purchased it years back it was $80.  Also, with this source, only some of the liturgies are translated into English, so you have to know your Greek. 

Searching in amazon for Brightman, I noticed he wrote a couple of volumes of "Liturgies, Eastern and Western," but I did not find anything named "Liturgical Archaeology."

I will say though that if a list of recommended writings starting from an introduction to this study to the deepest would suffice :-)
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« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2011, 05:58:08 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?
I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  ;)Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?
Depends upon how deep you want to go.  Brightman's collection is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology."  However, it is rather expensive.  When I purchased it years back it was $80.  Also, with this source, only some of the liturgies are translated into English, so you have to know your Greek. 
The Brightman work to which I was referring is called Eastern Liturgies by Gorgias press.   What I was saying was that this work is helpful in "liturgical archaology."   


Searching in amazon for Brightman, I noticed he wrote a couple of volumes of "Liturgies, Eastern and Western," but I did not find anything named "Liturgical Archaeology."

I will say though that if a list of recommended writings starting from an introduction to this study to the deepest would suffice :-)
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« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2011, 06:41:56 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?
I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  ;)Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?
Depends upon how deep you want to go.  Brightman's collection is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology."  However, it is rather expensive.  When I purchased it years back it was $80.  Also, with this source, only some of the liturgies are translated into English, so you have to know your Greek. 
The Brightman work to which I was referring is called Eastern Liturgies by Gorgias press.   What I was saying was that this work is helpful in "liturgical archaology."   


Searching in amazon for Brightman, I noticed he wrote a couple of volumes of "Liturgies, Eastern and Western," but I did not find anything named "Liturgical Archaeology."

I will say though that if a list of recommended writings starting from an introduction to this study to the deepest would suffice :-)

I almost hate to break it to you but two things I found out searching for this book online:

1.  "Eastern Liturgies" seems to be the same thing as "Liturgies:  Eastern and Western--Volume 1"
2.  Number 1 wasn't really the part I really hate to tell you, but it also turns out that google books has both volumes of that book, Brightman and Hammond, for free.

Thank you for the recommendation though   angel

http://books.google.com/books?id=_7haWYT-KH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=liturgies+eastern+and+western&hl=en&ei=4SOJTayMNomE0QHKvLHzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=_7haWYT-KH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=liturgies+eastern+and+western&hl=en&ei=4SOJTayMNomE0QHKvLHzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
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« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2011, 08:48:49 PM »

I almost hate to break it to you but two things I found out searching for this book online:  1.  "Eastern Liturgies" seems to be the same thing as "Liturgies:  Eastern and Western--Volume 1"
2.  Number 1 wasn't really the part I really hate to tell you, but it also turns out that google books has both volumes of that book, Brightman and Hammond, for free.Thank you for the recommendation though   angel http://books.google.com/books?id=_7haWYT-KH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=liturgies+eastern+and+western&hl=en&ei=4SOJTayMNomE0QHKvLHzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=_7haWYTKH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=liturgies+eastern+and+western&hl=en&ei=4SOJTayMNomE0QHKvLHzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Very good!   I have made much use of the book between the time that I had it and the time that it came out in googlebooks, so no need to feel bad about the good news. 
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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2012, 01:05:12 PM »

Dear deusveritasest,

I agree with you when you say:
Well, actually, rakovsky, I wasn't referring to just the Apostles. A Jewish Christian church of Jerusalem survived until about 135, a few generations beyond the Apostles themselves.

Naturally, you weren't referring to just the apostles, as your answer to the topic question was "Well, obviously the first hundred years of the Church of Jerusalem."
And yes, a Jewish church of Jerusalem survived until about 135 AD a few generations beyond the apostles who lived in the mid-first century. I earlier wrote about this regarding the time Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem, which was a few years around 135 AD as I remember it:
Quote
Epiphanius writes in "On Weights and Measures" about the time when Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem:
Quote
"Aquila, while he was in Jerusalem, also saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem"
When I say the church had survived, I mean the Church of Jerusalem, not necessarily the Church in Jerusalem. Today, the Church of Jerusalem refers to the Church headed in Jerusalem that extends throughout the Holy Land and Jordan. Consequently, the Church of Jerusalem could have temporarily shifted its headquarters, so to speak, from Jerusalem to Pella during time of War, while remaining the Church of Jerusalem.

I agree with you when you write:
Quote
So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James... I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.
My understanding from what I read is that the Liturgy of St James is the earliest of the remaining liturgies we know we have in full and exact form, and is based on the foundational elements of early Christian liturgy. Further, the West Syrian rite, as I understand it, uses the liturgy of St James, making it the most similar remaining rite as you say.

But I am confused when you write "that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it" in the sentence
Quote
the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it.
According to Wikipedia's article on the "Antiochene Rite," "The family of liturgies include the Apostolic Constitutions; then that of St. James in Greek, the Syriac Liturgy of St. James, and the other Syriac Anaphoras." In other words, the Liturgy of St James is one of the Antiochene Liturgies. So the Liturgy of Antioch isn't just based on the Liturgy of St James as you apparently suggest, it is the Liturgy of St James.

Another website confirms this:
Quote
The Rite of Jerusalem is that of Antioch. That is to say, the Liturgy that became famous as the use of the patriarchical church of Antioch, that through the influence of that Church spread throughout Syria and Asia Minor, and was the starting point of the development of the Byzantine rite, is itself originally the local liturgy, not of Antioch, but of Jerusalem. It is no other than the famous liturgy of St. James.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08371a.htm
However, this website apparently refers to the rite practiced in Jerusalem in Byzantine times as the Rite of Jerusalem, whereas you are talking about its form in an earlier stage, as a prototype of the "Liturgy of St James", which was the rite in Byzantine times. Its prototypical form was presumably less elaborate because at the initial state the Christians were still celebrating in synagoues and it makes sense that it would take some time after this for the liturgy to become more elaborate in Christian details, like the Liturgy of St James is.

But I am confused if you really mean "the Liturgy of Antioch is based on the Liturgy of St James", because I think that the word "it" at the end of your sentence can refer to "the rite of Jerusalem" in its prototypical form. But in that case your words that the "liturgy of Antioch" became based off of "it" are redundant, as you already said the rite of Jerusalem was a prototype for the Liturgy of St James.

Yes, I think GregoryLA made a good point when he wrote: "I'm certainly no expert but I think most academics (if you trust academics) don't think there's any evidence for a single rite to begin with but rather see a large amount of diversity from the earliest layers of the historical record."
As I point out in my answer to him(below), I think this makes sense, although I have alittle doubt about it too.

I assume you are right as a simple fact of people's opinions when you say "Some have said that the anaphora was improvised by the presider for about the first two hundred years". But I am not sure about this opinion, because Wikipedia explains that "The Anaphora is the most solemn part of the Divine Liturgy, in which the offerings of bread and wine are consecrated as the body and blood of Christ. This is the usual name for this part of the Liturgy in Greek-speaking Eastern Christianity, but in other Christian traditions that have a comparable rite it is more often called the Eucharistic Prayer."( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphora_(liturgy) )
It seems foreseeable that even in the first two hundred years, there would have been basic uniformity in this prayer because of its importance. Now perhaps in some places the prayer differed from another place. But still, it's foreseeable that there could have been a common, repeated prayer shared by different presiders rather than typically and simply improvised by each presider.

But of course you are right that "if true, that would certainly support the idea of a great diversity in the early Liturgy." Naturally, if such an important prayer was typically improsived by the presider, then it's expected that it would vary depending on the presider who was making his own improvisation, thus creating wide diversity in the service.

May the Lord make your body and spirit to be healthy!
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