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Author Topic: Who are the Notable Orthodox of Jewish Origin?  (Read 3536 times) Average Rating: 5
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rakovsky
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« on: October 14, 2010, 01:45:55 PM »

Quote
Hebrew Catholics hold controversial, closed conference
11 October 2010, The Underground
http://theundergroundsite.com/index.php/2010/10/hebrew-catholics-hold-controversial-closed-conference-2-13990

The Association of Hebrew Catholics held recently a three-day closed conference at the Renaissance St. Louis Airport Hotel... they did however provide CDs about the conference when it was over, St. Louis Today reported.
...the AHC is also cited in the archdiocese website as an official organization, The Jewish Journal said.

The stated purpose of the conference was to “preserve the identity and heritage of Catholics of Jewish origin within the Church.”

In their website, the AHC describes itself as a lay apostolate comprised of Catholics both of Jewish and non-Jewish background. Their goal is to preserve the heritage and identity of the people of Israel by gathering together Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, the website said. AHC president David Moss sees no problem with this saying, “Jews outside the church need to see a Jewish reality inside the church..."

Russian speaking Catholics?Huh?
Quote
Jesuit Fr David Neuhaus is a convert from Judaism to the Catholic Church and now serves as vicar for the tiny community of Hebrew and Russian speaking Catholics with the Jerusalem Patriarchate.
http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=429158
The wording in this article shows that the Vatican apparently considers its own "Jerusalem Patriarchate" AKA the Latin Jerusalem Patriarchate, forced on the Holy Land by 12th century Crusaders, to be "the" real Jerusalem Patriarchate. So much for respecting Orthodox Patriarchs' legitimacy.

Quote
Notable Catholics of Jewish origin
This list only includes people from after the East-West Schism

St. Angelus of Jerusalem
St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) - Philosopher, Carmelite nun, martyr, and saint of the Catholic Church, who died in Auschwitz.
etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics

Is there a list of Notable Christians from before the Schism, and Orthodox afterwards, of Jewish Origin, especially in the HolyLand/Israel/Palestine?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 01:54:33 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2010, 02:07:33 PM »

Believe it or not, there actually are and have been Russians who decided that communion with Rome was important, most notably Nicholas Tolstoy, who entered into that communion entirely of his own volition.
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2010, 03:03:19 PM »

Well, obviously the first hundred years of the Church of Jerusalem.  Tongue
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 03:03:46 PM »

I could name at least twelve Orthodox Christians of Jewish origin.... Wink
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 03:04:32 PM »

Well, obviously the first hundred years of the Church of Jerusalem.  Tongue

I was going to say Jesus, but I figured I'd made enough jokes-with-a-point around here over the last week.  Cool
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 03:27:25 PM »

Two from the Nicene and post-Nicene era that come to mind off the top of my head are St. Romanos the Melode (from a family of Jewish cantors) and St. Epiphanios of Cypros (who began as an Egyptian monk, but was so erudite that the brethren advised him to go to Alexandria and become a bishop).
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 03:52:41 PM »

Father Nicolae Steinhardt converted to Orthodoxy while imprisoned by the Communists.
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Elders/Romanian/Fr._Nicolae_Steinhardt/
http://nicolaesteinhardt.wordpress.com/in-english/

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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 04:11:55 PM »

Fr. Alexander Men
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 10:31:45 AM »

Two from the Nicene and post-Nicene era that come to mind off the top of my head are St. Romanos the Melode (from a family of Jewish cantors) and St. Epiphanios of Cypros (who began as an Egyptian monk, but was so erudite that the brethren advised him to go to Alexandria and become a bishop).
From my knowledge of Judaism, based on what I have read by Jacob Taubes, Jewish philosopher, (professor at the Free Univ. of Berlin, Harvard, Columbia and Princeton) the institution of cantor in the synagogue is a modern invention of German Jews who wanted to copy Protestants. It is a fact, that the Jews do not have a priesthood since the fall of the Jerusalem Temple.

To add to this thread:
Lev Shestov
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 10:37:17 AM »

Two from the Nicene and post-Nicene era that come to mind off the top of my head are St. Romanos the Melode (from a family of Jewish cantors) and St. Epiphanios of Cypros (who began as an Egyptian monk, but was so erudite that the brethren advised him to go to Alexandria and become a bishop).
From my knowledge of Judaism, based on what I have read by Jacob Taubes, Jewish philosopher, (professor at the Free Univ. of Berlin, Harvard, Columbia and Princeton) the institution of cantor in the synagogue is a modern invention of German Jews who wanted to copy Protestants. It is a fact, that the Jews do not have a priesthood since the fall of the Jerusalem Temple.

To add to this thread:
Lev Shestov

Who said cantors were priests?

Someone in the synagogue had to lead the congregation is singing the hymns.  Perhaps it wasn't a defined position of "cantor" like we know it today, but I think the point was that St. Roman's family was made up of good singers, hence his propensity for crafting the beautiful hymns he left behind.
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 10:44:26 AM »

Well, obviously the first hundred years of the Church of Jerusalem.  Tongue

I was going to say Jesus, but I figured I'd made enough jokes-with-a-point around here over the last week.  Cool

You beat me to it.  I would say that he is the most notable Orthodox of Jewish origin.
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2010, 10:51:56 AM »

Fr. James Bernstein:
http://www.surprisedbychrist.com/
http://www.conciliarpress.com/reading_room/books_bernstein_surprised
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/surprised_by_christ
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 11:23:54 AM »

Fr. Alexander Men

He didn't last too long though did he?

Lev Gillet is another.

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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 11:26:18 AM »

Fr. Alexander Men

He didn't last too long though did he?


What do you mean?  He was Orthodox his entire life and spent 30 years as a priest before he was murdered (martyred?). 
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 01:17:45 PM »

Fr. Alexander Men

He didn't last too long though did he?


What do you mean?  He was Orthodox his entire life and spent 30 years as a priest before he was murdered (martyred?). 

Dear Schultz,

I wasn't actually thinking in terms of actual length of days on earth but, as with Gillet, Father Alexander seems to have fallen into disfavor for some of his teachings and understandings of Orthodoxy.  So that he may have been a convert but what he was as an Orthodox believer has tended to be marginalized.

And then, of course, there is the fact that he was murdered.

M.
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2010, 04:43:41 PM »

Ok, someone help me here, as when I read it, it must have been a decade ago or more.  I think it was Fr. Men, but perhaps someone else, who enumerated the amount of Orthodox Christians in Russian and Ukraine to be of some Jewish origin.  I looked in my two works by Fr. Men and could not find it, so I am thinking perhaps it was someone else.  As I recall, when I remember seeing it, it was an astoundingly large number, and could be partially identified by the surname. 
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2010, 04:54:22 PM »

Fr. Alexander Winogradsky of the Jerusalem Patriarchate.
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« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2011, 05:58:02 PM »

Deusveritasest, Asteriktos, Fabio Leite, and Punch:

You are right, and yes it is a good pun when you write:

Well, obviously the first hundred years of the Church of Jerusalem.  Tongue

Quote
I was going to say Jesus, but I figured I'd made enough jokes-with-a-point around here over the last week.

Quote
I could name at least twelve Orthodox Christians of Jewish origin....

Quote
You beat me to it.  I would say that he is the most notable Orthodox of Jewish origin.

And if I roll up my eyes  Roll Eyes and say "Sigh", then it becomes more funny:

me: "C'mon guys, I'm looking for a serious answer."

response: But we are serious, who is more notable than Jesus and the 12 apostles among Orthodox Christians.

me: Yes, um... OK... but I was hoping that you would make a longer list, because I asked more specifically:

Quote
Is there a list of Notable Christians from before the Schism, and Orthodox afterwards, of Jewish Origin, especially in the HolyLand/Israel/Palestine?

And your list isn't all-encompassing for the notable Christians, since there are others like Joseph of Tiberias. By "notable", I meant famous in Orthodoxy.

I admit that the question poses some possible linguistic ways to quibble over the answer.

Be Cool.  Smiley

Cymbyz:

Thanks for mentioning:
Quote
Two from the Nicene and post-Nicene era that come to mind off the top of my head are St. Romanos the Melode (from a family of Jewish cantors) and St. Epiphanios of Cypros (who began as an Egyptian monk, but was so erudite that the brethren advised him to go to Alexandria and become a bishop).

From the information on Wikipedia about Romanos, it appears that he wasn't a resident of Palestine:
Quote
he was born to a Jewish family in either Emesa (modern-day Homs) or Damascus in Syria. He was baptized as a young boy (though whether or not his parents also converted is uncertain). Having moved to Berytus (Beirut), he was ordained a deacon in the Church of the Resurrection there. He later moved to Constantinople during the reign of the emperor Anastasius

Thanks for mentioning about "St. Epiphanios of Cypros (who began as an Egyptian monk, but was so erudite that the brethren advised him to go to Alexandria and become a bishop)." He certainly qualifies for my blog about Christianity in the Holy land (rakovskii.livejournal.com) Smiley

I will make a summary about Epiphanius in the next message.

Peace



synLeszka:

It's interesting that you write:
Quote
From my knowledge of Judaism, based on what I have read by Jacob Taubes, Jewish philosopher, (professor at the Free Univ. of Berlin, Harvard, Columbia and Princeton) the institution of cantor in the synagogue is a modern invention of German Jews who wanted to copy Protestants. It is a fact, that the Jews do not have a priesthood since the fall of the Jerusalem Temple.
Your last sentence is irrelevant, because a cantor isn't necessarily the same as a priest.

There appears to be a big problem with the statement you made, because the internet says:
Quote
The Chazzan is defined by the Encyclopedia Judaica as, "The Cantor officiating in a Synagogue used in this specific sense since the Middle Ages." Before the Middle Ages, the Talmud describes various duties performed the "Chazzan Ha-Kenesset" (Cantor of the Synagogue) such as blowing a ram's horn to announce the commencement of the Sabbath and Festivals. He was not, however, regularly required to chant the Synagogue Service but could do so by request. In Talmudic times (from the first half of the third century CE to the sixth century) there was no permanent Cantor, and any member of the congregation might be asked to lead the public prayers. http://www.templesanjose.org/JudaismInfo/Torah/cantor.htm
One possibility is that the author you referred to was referring to a specific kind of cantor position, as defined by his duties, that was created in the modern era.

Based on the quote I cited, Romanus the Melode's family could still be from a kind of Jewish cantor.

You made a good mention about the philosopher Lev Shestov (Born February 13, 1866 Kiev, Russian Empire; Died November 19, 1938 (aged 72) Paris, France)

Zdrawe tebe.



ma2000:

Thanks for mentioning:
"Father Nicolae Steinhardt converted to Orthodoxy while imprisoned by the Communists." It sounds like he had a colorful life, although he didn't emigrate to the Holy Land.

In an interesting mention about WWII, his biography in Wikipedia says:
Quote
In 1939 Steinhardt worked as an editor for Revista Fundaţiilor Regale (a government-sponsored literary magazine), losing his job between 1940 and 1944, during the ethnic cleansing under the Iron Guard regime (the National Legionary State) and the Ion Antonescu one. Despite his problems with the latter, he would forgive Antonescu, and even praise him for allegedly having saved several hundred thousands Jews (which he claimed had occurred after a face-to-face debate with Adolf Hitler at Berchtesgaden).

Regards



FatherHLL,

You made a good mention of Father Men.

His biography from Wikipedia is interesting, mentioning:
Quote
" He was baptized at seven months along with his mother in the banned Catacomb Church, a branch of the Russian Orthodox Church that refused to cooperate with the Soviet authorities.[2] Men was expelled from college in 1958 due to his religious beliefs, and in 1960 was ordained a priest upon graduating from the Leningrad Theological Seminary."
The quote here goes against the idea that the Moscow Patriarchate was merely an arm of the state, because here a person who belonged to a Catacomb movement and was expelled was yet accepted at another insitution.

Also, the story about his axe-killing is strange. It is hard to guess what happened, since it was in 1990 when the Soviet government was at the end of its transition to the Russian government, and posed practically far less negative political importance compared to earlier years, plus he is something of a hero, and the country is hardly ideological against religion anymore...

I believe you when you write:
Quote
Ok, someone help me here, as when I read it, it must have been a decade ago or more.  I think it was Fr. Men, but perhaps someone else, who enumerated the amount of Orthodox Christians in Russian and Ukraine to be of some Jewish origin.  I looked in my two works by Fr. Men and could not find it, so I am thinking perhaps it was someone else.  As I recall, when I remember seeing it, it was an astoundingly large number, and could be partially identified by the surname.

I don't know of the specific list you mention, but on the internet it says that about 300,000-400,000 Orthodox Christians of Jewish descent live in the Holy Land as immigrants based on the Israeli government's law of return that gives citizenship to immigrants of recent Jewish descent. It certainly is a large number of people, the size of a medium-small size city.

Kind Regards.



Schultz,
You were right when you asked rhetorically:
Quote
Who said cantors were priests?
No one in the forum said this before synLeszka asked.

I also makes sense when you write:
Quote
Someone in the synagogue had to lead the congregation is singing the hymns.  Perhaps it wasn't a defined position of "cantor" like we know it today, but I think the point was that St. Roman's family was made up of good singers, hence his propensity for crafting the beautiful hymns he left behind.
However, from the quote I made to synLeszka above, it appears that such a role existed in Romanus' time, although I'm uncertain how official it was.

Also, your statement is in a way correct:
Quote
What do you mean?  He was Orthodox his entire life and spent 30 years as a priest before he was murdered (martyred?).
He "lasted" a long time in Orthodoxy for his life, because he stayed in the church since he was 7 months old. Although his life didn't last long, may he live again.

Peace, bro.



88Devin12:

You made a good mention of Fr. James Bernstein, because he is prominent about Orthodox in America on the topic of Judaism in relation to Orthodoxy and vice-verse.



Elijahmaria:

You asked about Fr. Men:
Quote
He didn't last too long though did he?
Fr. Men was baptized at 7 months old in 1935 and died in 1990, making about 55 years, which doesn't seem "too long", as you say. God Bless Him.

You made a good mention of Lev Gillet. His biography on Wikipedia says: "In 1938 he left Paris to settle in London, within the framework of the Fellowship of Saint Alban and Saint Sergius, an ecumenical organization dedicated to the bringing together of the Anglican and Orthodox churches."

You wrote:
Quote
I wasn't actually thinking in terms of actual length of days on earth but, as with Gillet, Father Alexander seems to have fallen into disfavor for some of his teachings and understandings of Orthodoxy.  So that he may have been a convert but what he was as an Orthodox believer has tended to be marginalized.
Whether or not someone's teachings and understandings of Orthodoxy fall into disfavor has nothing to do with whether someone is "lasting" within Orthodoxy, unless the person is excommunicated or leaves the church because of those reasons, neither of which instance applies to either Gillet or Fr. Men.

You added:
Quote
And then, of course, there is the fact that he was murdered.
However, this is also irrelevant to your question, because you specified that you weren't "actually thinking in terms of actual length of days on earth"- unless you mean that he was murdered because of his religious ideas. I believe that he wasn't murdered for his religious ideas, because the Orthodox Church today very rarely if ever directly and intentionally performs killing, besides that such an act would be a very high sin prohibited by and for the Church. Plus, I have never heard of the Church as an institution killing anyone intentionally in the 19th-21st century, or an Orthodox religious leader killing anyone for religious reasons in the 19th-21st century.

Take care



AMM,

You made a good mention of Fr. Alexander Winogradsky of the Jerusalem Patriarchate, whose total writings on his blogs and websites seems prodigious. He is also friendly to write to and appears a kind person, may the LORD bless him.
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« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2011, 05:59:46 PM »

Epiphanius of Salamis, the "Oracle of Palestine"

Wikipedia mentions in its entry of Epiphanius of Salamis (ca. 310–320 – 403):
Quote
bishop of Salamis and metropolitan of Cyprus... He was born into a Christian family in the small settlement of Besanduk, which is near Eleutheropolis, Palestine [1] ,... He returned to Palestine around 333, when he was still a young man, and he founded a monastery at Ad nearby... He was ordained a priest, and lived and studied as superior of the monastery in Ad that he founded for thirty years and gained much skill and knowledge in that position. In that position he gained the ability to speak in several tongues including Hebrew, Syriac, ...  the Panarion is a valuable source of information on the Christian church of the fourth century. It is also an important source regarding the early Jewish gospels such as the Gospel according to the Hebrews circulating among the Ebionites, the Nazarenes as well as the followers of Cerinthus and Merinthus.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphanius_of_Salamis)
This sounds a little weird phonetically, because "Ad" means Hades in Russian.

Epiphanius writes in "On Weights and Measures" about the time when Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem:
Quote
"Aquila, while he was in Jerusalem, also saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem"
(http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/bk04.html)

Epiphanius also wrote:
Quote
Hadrian found the temple of God throdden down and the whole city devastated, save for a few houses and the very small church of God, where the disciples, when they had returned after the Savior had ascended from the Mount of Olives, went to the upper room. For there it had been built, that is, in that portion of Zion that escaped destruction, together with blocks of houses in the neighborhood of Zion and the seven synagogues that alone remained standing in Zion, like solitary huts, one of which remained until the time of Maximinus, the bishop and the emperor Constantine, like a booth in a vineyard[1], as it is written.

(http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/bk04.html)
Here, he refers to Isaiah 1.8 with the words "booth in a vineyard." He gives the image of Zion like a vineyard at the time of Maximus, and the image of the only one of the 7 synagogues left standing. He compares the lone synagogue left standing as a booth in a vineyard. He doesn't explicitly say that the situation is a flfillment of the verse, rather he simply says that it's "like" the verse, so here Epiphanius is simply engaging in literary poetic prose. Also, he distinguishes the Jewish Christian apostles' house of worship, which would be in the style of a synagogue, from the other 7 synagogues, which leaves open whether the synagogue standing today that is now identified as the Upper Room is actually the Upper Room synagogue or one of the 7 synagogues that remained in Maximus' time. On the other hand, Epiphanius was writing centuries after the event, so he could be mistaken in distinguishing the apostles' synagogue from the 7 standing synagogues.


"He returned into Palestine about the year 333, and built a monastery near the place of his birth."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/epiphan.htm

He is also known as "the Oracle of Palestine"
Dictionary of saints, John J. Delaney - 2005, p. 202


Epiphanius

The site here has a few stories about him that sound like midrash-allegories about how Epiphanius became Christian:
http://www.roca.org/OA/147-148/147m.htm
For example, it says: "Epiphanius was soon baptized, together with his sister. At the Baptism, Epiphanius' face became radiant and a crown was seen resting on his head." Well, it could mean that the water glistened on his hair in a ring like a crown, and somewhat observed this and poetically thought it was like a crown.

The entry in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia says:
"A legend asserts that, before his conversion, Epiphanius was adopted by a rich Jew named Tryphon, who died soon afterward, leaving his fortune to Epiphanius."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=430&letter=E#ixzz1GzBFhnQR
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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2011, 06:59:00 PM »

Well, actually, rakovsky, I wasn't referring to just the Apostles. A Jewish Christian church of Jerusalem survived until about 135, a few generations beyond the Apostles themselves.
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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2011, 08:22:57 PM »

Fr. Alexander Men

He didn't last too long though did he?

Lev Gillet is another.


News to me.  And if Fr. Men''s popularity didn't last, what would that mean?  How many priests serve their lives out in anonymity?

Lev Gillet hasn't fallen into oblivion either. His shortcomings are just well known.
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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2011, 08:30:45 PM »

I was told by a Cyprianite monk that their Synod (in Resistance) is often called the Sanhedrin because so many of their bishops are of Jewish origin.
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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2011, 08:38:51 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
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« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2011, 08:39:47 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.
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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2011, 08:46:48 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.

So I can imagine the Jerusalem rite was THE Jewish rite, but in a Christian setting?
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« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2011, 08:54:13 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.

So I can imagine the Jerusalem rite was THE Jewish rite, but in a Christian setting?
Yes, that was the case everywhere.  The Church had first grown in the synagogues throughout the empire and beyond.  Hence how every DL has a Liturgy of the Word, which was the synagouge service incorporated with the Liturgy of the Eucharist which had been done in homes, and which replaced the cult in the Temple.
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2011, 10:40:53 PM »

I was told by a Cyprianite monk that their Synod (in Resistance) is often called the Sanhedrin because so many of their bishops are of Jewish origin.

LOL. I'm a little suprised that there doesn't seem to be any conspiracy theories about how Jews are trying to destroy the Church from within by creating schisms.
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2011, 01:13:36 AM »

Wasn't the late Metropolitan Anthony Bloom from a Jewish family?
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« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2011, 09:51:01 AM »

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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2011, 10:14:51 AM »

Wasn't the late Metropolitan Anthony Bloom from a Jewish family?

From what I understand about the late Metropolitan, he was an atheist in his youth.
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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2011, 01:36:01 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it. I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.
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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2011, 03:50:05 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.

So I can imagine the Jerusalem rite was THE Jewish rite, but in a Christian setting?

I'm certainly no expert but I think most academics (if you trust academics) don't think there's any evidence for a single rite to begin with but rather see a large amount of diversity from the earliest layers of the historical record.
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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2011, 03:52:42 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?
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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2011, 03:56:07 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it. I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.

It's also possible that an extant rite based off the ancient Jerusalem rite(s) has maintained a more archaic form in some places than a rite that has had a more direct evolution from the ancient Jerusalem rite.
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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2011, 08:36:19 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?

I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  Wink

Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?
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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2011, 10:06:25 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?

I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  Wink

Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?

Here are the recommendations I got from a professor of liturgics at the University of Oslo...

Quote
...Bradshaw's elementary
introduction, "Early Christian Worship" (1996), is a good place to
start, and also return to later even when one has learned more - sober
and basic. Another is Marcel Metzger, "History of the Liturgy"
 
Concerning the Eucharist, Bradshaw's "Eucharistic Origins" is standard.
Baptism: Maxwell Johnson, "The Rites of Christian Initiation"
Concerning the Daily Office: Robert Taft, "The Liturgy of the Hours in
East and West"
Church Year: Thomas Talley, "Origins of the Church Year"...

Edit: E.P. Sanders "Judaism: Practice and Belief 66 BCE- 63 CE" is a good intro. to Judaism at the time of the birth of Christianity as well.  It covers all parts of Jewish life though, not just liturgics.
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« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2011, 10:37:48 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?   
So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it. I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.
I would disagree with this.   All local rites, whether Chalcedonian or not, went through a period of standardization giving us what we have today. The west Syrian rite has been "standardized" and trimmed to a point in which you can hardly tell the difference in about 8 different anaphoras.   Whereas the "Byzantine" standardization was to basically leave the anaphoras themselves alone, but to make uniform prescribed litanies (for example, the prothesis litany belonged originally to the Caesarean liturgy, i.e. St. Basil, and was added later to the "liturgy of the Apostles" aka St. John Chrysostom, and the triple litany ektenia to both at a later time), the west Syrian rite amended the anaphoras of various liturgies to make them of standard length and replaced certain distinctive elements with uniform clauses.   The Byzantine standardization let the anaphoras (Jerusalemite, Syrian and Caesarean; i.e. James, Chrysostom and Basil) remain essentially "as is" in length and substance, with only the intro, mentioning of the diocesan hierarch, and the elevation being standardized, not seeing the need to shorten one or lengthen another to conform to the rest, but added "conforming litanies" to the rest of the liturgy, the standard antiphonal intro before the entrance, etc.   However, the current Syrian usage does allow us to see elements of the Ante-Caesarian rite, for example, although shortened from their original form.   
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« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2011, 10:41:36 AM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?
I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  Wink
Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?

Depends upon how deep you want to go.  Brightman's collection is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology."  However, it is rather expensive.  When I purchased it years back it was $80.  Also, with this source, only some of the liturgies are translated into English, so you have to know your Greek. 
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« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2011, 05:10:45 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.

So I can imagine the Jerusalem rite was THE Jewish rite, but in a Christian setting?

I'm certainly no expert but I think most academics (if you trust academics) don't think there's any evidence for a single rite to begin with but rather see a large amount of diversity from the earliest layers of the historical record.

Good point. Some have said that the anaphora was improvised by the presider for about the first two hundred years, and if true, that would certainly support the idea of a great diversity in the early Liturgy.
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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2011, 05:12:06 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it. I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.

It's also possible that an extant rite based off the ancient Jerusalem rite(s) has maintained a more archaic form in some places than a rite that has had a more direct evolution from the ancient Jerusalem rite.

True enough.
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« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2011, 05:47:52 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?
I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  Wink
Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?

Depends upon how deep you want to go.  Brightman's collection is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology."  However, it is rather expensive.  When I purchased it years back it was $80.  Also, with this source, only some of the liturgies are translated into English, so you have to know your Greek. 

Searching in amazon for Brightman, I noticed he wrote a couple of volumes of "Liturgies, Eastern and Western," but I did not find anything named "Liturgical Archaeology."

I will say though that if a list of recommended writings starting from an introduction to this study to the deepest would suffice :-)
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« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2011, 05:58:08 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?
I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  ;)Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?
Depends upon how deep you want to go.  Brightman's collection is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology."  However, it is rather expensive.  When I purchased it years back it was $80.  Also, with this source, only some of the liturgies are translated into English, so you have to know your Greek. 
The Brightman work to which I was referring is called Eastern Liturgies by Gorgias press.   What I was saying was that this work is helpful in "liturgical archaology."   


Searching in amazon for Brightman, I noticed he wrote a couple of volumes of "Liturgies, Eastern and Western," but I did not find anything named "Liturgical Archaeology."

I will say though that if a list of recommended writings starting from an introduction to this study to the deepest would suffice :-)
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« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2011, 06:41:56 PM »

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?
I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  ;)Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?
Depends upon how deep you want to go.  Brightman's collection is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology."  However, it is rather expensive.  When I purchased it years back it was $80.  Also, with this source, only some of the liturgies are translated into English, so you have to know your Greek. 
The Brightman work to which I was referring is called Eastern Liturgies by Gorgias press.   What I was saying was that this work is helpful in "liturgical archaology."   


Searching in amazon for Brightman, I noticed he wrote a couple of volumes of "Liturgies, Eastern and Western," but I did not find anything named "Liturgical Archaeology."

I will say though that if a list of recommended writings starting from an introduction to this study to the deepest would suffice :-)

I almost hate to break it to you but two things I found out searching for this book online:

1.  "Eastern Liturgies" seems to be the same thing as "Liturgies:  Eastern and Western--Volume 1"
2.  Number 1 wasn't really the part I really hate to tell you, but it also turns out that google books has both volumes of that book, Brightman and Hammond, for free.

Thank you for the recommendation though   angel

http://books.google.com/books?id=_7haWYT-KH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=liturgies+eastern+and+western&hl=en&ei=4SOJTayMNomE0QHKvLHzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=_7haWYT-KH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=liturgies+eastern+and+western&hl=en&ei=4SOJTayMNomE0QHKvLHzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
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« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2011, 08:48:49 PM »

I almost hate to break it to you but two things I found out searching for this book online:  1.  "Eastern Liturgies" seems to be the same thing as "Liturgies:  Eastern and Western--Volume 1"
2.  Number 1 wasn't really the part I really hate to tell you, but it also turns out that google books has both volumes of that book, Brightman and Hammond, for free.Thank you for the recommendation though   angel http://books.google.com/books?id=_7haWYT-KH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=liturgies+eastern+and+western&hl=en&ei=4SOJTayMNomE0QHKvLHzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=_7haWYTKH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=liturgies+eastern+and+western&hl=en&ei=4SOJTayMNomE0QHKvLHzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Very good!   I have made much use of the book between the time that I had it and the time that it came out in googlebooks, so no need to feel bad about the good news. 
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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2012, 01:05:12 PM »

Dear deusveritasest,

I agree with you when you say:
Well, actually, rakovsky, I wasn't referring to just the Apostles. A Jewish Christian church of Jerusalem survived until about 135, a few generations beyond the Apostles themselves.

Naturally, you weren't referring to just the apostles, as your answer to the topic question was "Well, obviously the first hundred years of the Church of Jerusalem."
And yes, a Jewish church of Jerusalem survived until about 135 AD a few generations beyond the apostles who lived in the mid-first century. I earlier wrote about this regarding the time Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem, which was a few years around 135 AD as I remember it:
Quote
Epiphanius writes in "On Weights and Measures" about the time when Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem:
Quote
"Aquila, while he was in Jerusalem, also saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem"
When I say the church had survived, I mean the Church of Jerusalem, not necessarily the Church in Jerusalem. Today, the Church of Jerusalem refers to the Church headed in Jerusalem that extends throughout the Holy Land and Jordan. Consequently, the Church of Jerusalem could have temporarily shifted its headquarters, so to speak, from Jerusalem to Pella during time of War, while remaining the Church of Jerusalem.

I agree with you when you write:
Quote
So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James... I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.
My understanding from what I read is that the Liturgy of St James is the earliest of the remaining liturgies we know we have in full and exact form, and is based on the foundational elements of early Christian liturgy. Further, the West Syrian rite, as I understand it, uses the liturgy of St James, making it the most similar remaining rite as you say.

But I am confused when you write "that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it" in the sentence
Quote
the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it.
According to Wikipedia's article on the "Antiochene Rite," "The family of liturgies include the Apostolic Constitutions; then that of St. James in Greek, the Syriac Liturgy of St. James, and the other Syriac Anaphoras." In other words, the Liturgy of St James is one of the Antiochene Liturgies. So the Liturgy of Antioch isn't just based on the Liturgy of St James as you apparently suggest, it is the Liturgy of St James.

Another website confirms this:
Quote
The Rite of Jerusalem is that of Antioch. That is to say, the Liturgy that became famous as the use of the patriarchical church of Antioch, that through the influence of that Church spread throughout Syria and Asia Minor, and was the starting point of the development of the Byzantine rite, is itself originally the local liturgy, not of Antioch, but of Jerusalem. It is no other than the famous liturgy of St. James.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08371a.htm
However, this website apparently refers to the rite practiced in Jerusalem in Byzantine times as the Rite of Jerusalem, whereas you are talking about its form in an earlier stage, as a prototype of the "Liturgy of St James", which was the rite in Byzantine times. Its prototypical form was presumably less elaborate because at the initial state the Christians were still celebrating in synagoues and it makes sense that it would take some time after this for the liturgy to become more elaborate in Christian details, like the Liturgy of St James is.

But I am confused if you really mean "the Liturgy of Antioch is based on the Liturgy of St James", because I think that the word "it" at the end of your sentence can refer to "the rite of Jerusalem" in its prototypical form. But in that case your words that the "liturgy of Antioch" became based off of "it" are redundant, as you already said the rite of Jerusalem was a prototype for the Liturgy of St James.

Yes, I think GregoryLA made a good point when he wrote: "I'm certainly no expert but I think most academics (if you trust academics) don't think there's any evidence for a single rite to begin with but rather see a large amount of diversity from the earliest layers of the historical record."
As I point out in my answer to him(below), I think this makes sense, although I have alittle doubt about it too.

I assume you are right as a simple fact of people's opinions when you say "Some have said that the anaphora was improvised by the presider for about the first two hundred years". But I am not sure about this opinion, because Wikipedia explains that "The Anaphora is the most solemn part of the Divine Liturgy, in which the offerings of bread and wine are consecrated as the body and blood of Christ. This is the usual name for this part of the Liturgy in Greek-speaking Eastern Christianity, but in other Christian traditions that have a comparable rite it is more often called the Eucharistic Prayer."( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphora_(liturgy) )
It seems foreseeable that even in the first two hundred years, there would have been basic uniformity in this prayer because of its importance. Now perhaps in some places the prayer differed from another place. But still, it's foreseeable that there could have been a common, repeated prayer shared by different presiders rather than typically and simply improvised by each presider.

But of course you are right that "if true, that would certainly support the idea of a great diversity in the early Liturgy." Naturally, if such an important prayer was typically improsived by the presider, then it's expected that it would vary depending on the presider who was making his own improvisation, thus creating wide diversity in the service.

May the Lord make your body and spirit to be healthy!
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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2012, 01:12:07 PM »

Dear minasoliman,

You asked:

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
I think your question is outside the scope of the topic question, which asks to namethe Notable Orthodox individuals of Jewish origin, that your question is a separate topic.
But it is an interesting and important question.

By rite today  I assume you mean liturgies currently used, since I vaguely remember hearing "rite" refer to a type of liturgy and you asked which one is closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy.

My understanding is the the liturgy of St James is the liturgy that is the most original to Jerusalem. For example, it prays about Zion, the religious name for the Holy Land. It also reads from the Old Testament. So I think it is the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy. In the Russian Orthodox Church it is used on St James' Day and one other day, maybe around New Years'- I forget which day is the other one.

The Syrian Oriental Orthodox Church uses the Liturgy of St. James, and it seems to me what you might be referring to as the Syriac Rite, as it exists in the Aramaic/Syriac language and is used by the Syriac O.O. Church.

I am not sure Jerusalem had its own rite before the Byzantization, that is, before Christianity in Jerisalem became accepted as official by the Roman empire and heavily influenced by the official culture in the Eastern Roman empire, i.e. Byzantium. I am not sure it had its own rite because it seems that the Christians would've spread the same basic rituals among themselves as part of Christianity beyond Jerusalem. Even if certain huge portions of the Roman Empire- like the Eastern and Western halves had some different styles, it still seems that Jerusalem would do the rituals similarly enough to the ways other places did the rituals, that the rituals in Jerusalem wouldn't be "their own" as opposed to others'.

From the New Testament, it appears the early Christians in the first century did have rituals that form basic parts of our liturgy, such as the Eucharist and the Lord's prayer. But I don't have serious sense how deeply systematized these rituals were into a Liturgy at that point. From the 1st to 4th centuries, I expect they developed a liturgy for their services, and expect it was similar to synagogue services, as ours are today in a general way. But I don't remember information detailing how it was before St. James' Liturgy, which I assume incorporated elements of it.

You asked:
So I can imagine the Jerusalem rite was THE Jewish rite, but in a Christian setting?
Yes, I think that you can imagine this. My understanding from reading different scholarly articles is that the early Christians in Jerusalem took the Jewish rite and then added Christian elements to it, making it the Jewish Rite in a Christian setting. However, the additions, like the Eucharist, are strong enough that I am not sure our statement is correct. It seems that the Eucharist goes beyond merely a Christian setting- that is, a Christian background theme, and makes the rite itself Christian with a jewish layout and major basis.

It was funny when you asked:
I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?

Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?

I don't know.  I'm the one with the questions here  Wink
It is funny because you asked the question about the Jewish liturgy and then say you don't know which category of Jewish service you are talking about! In fact, the answer to the question- since you don't know which category- is apparently either one in any time period before the Byzantinization, because you did not specify the time period except to add that you were interested in the situation before the Byzantinization. And in any case, "ancient times", as I vaguely understand it, refers to a period before the time of Constantine.

You asked: "Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?"
I assume there are many considering the importance of the ancient rites and liturgies to Orthodoxy. Offhand, I found one by Concilliar Press, which impresses me as generally a printer of good quality books: "Let Us Attend! A Journey Through the Orthodox Divine Liturgy" by Fr. Lawrence. (http://www.conciliarpress.com/products/Let-Us-Attend!-A-Journey-Through-the-Orthodox-Divine-Liturgy.html)

The description says:
Quote
Fr. Lawrence guides everyday believers in a devotional and historical walk through the Orthodox liturgy. Examining the Liturgy section by section, he provides both historical explanations of how the liturgy evolved, and devotional insights aimed at helping us pray the liturgy in the way the Fathers intended.
I assume this book will discuss ancient rites and liturgies based on the fact that it describes the history of Orthodox liturgy.

Naturally, "Searching in amazon for Brightman, [you] noticed he wrote a couple of volumes of "Liturgies, Eastern and Western," but you did not find anything named "Liturgical Archaeology."

FatherHLL wrote: "Brightman's collection is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology."" Here, "liturgical archeology" isn't capitalised, so it isn't a title, but a subject. And further, it would be strange to say that the "collection" of books is helpful in just one of its books, as in "Brown's collection is helpful in volume 4", since then it isn't the whole collection that is helpful but just one part of it. And in that case it would make more sense to just say "Volume 4 of Brown's collection" is helpful. Thus, FatherHLL naturally responded: "What I was saying was that this work is helpful in "liturgical archaology.""

When you write: "I will say though that if a list of recommended writings starting from an introduction to this study to the deepest would suffice :-) I assume you mean "I will say though that a list of recommended writings starting from an introduction to this study to the deepest writing would suffice :-)", since the word "if" doesn't make sense to me here, because it would make the sentence only the first part of an "if - then" statement. And plus, you are mentioning the deepest writing, because you are describing a list of writings. In any case, it seems you are right of course, because you are sensibly describing what would be good for an answer, and it is you who posed the question of what literature would be good in the first place. :-)
Hehe.

And naturally, such a list of recommended writings ranging from an introduction to the deepest writing would include a good book on the subject.

I expect you are right you about the way you say you feel, and what you say when you write:
I almost hate to break it to you but two things I found out searching for this book online:

1.  "Eastern Liturgies" seems to be the same thing as "Liturgies:  Eastern and Western--Volume 1"
2.  Number 1 wasn't really the part I really hate to tell you, but it also turns out that google books has both volumes of that book, Brightman and Hammond, for free.

Thank you for the recommendation though   angel

http://books.google.com/books?id=_7haWYT-KH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=liturgies+eastern+and+western&hl=en&ei=4SOJTayMNomE0QHKvLHzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=_7haWYT-KH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=liturgies+eastern+and+western&hl=en&ei=4SOJTayMNomE0QHKvLHzDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
Naturally, since FatherHLL has just said he paid $80 for what is practically a volume that is free online, part of you hates or almost hates - I foresee that you can feel both ways at different moments- to reveal to him in point "2." that the volume is free. That's because it means that his $80 could have been a waste or partly a waste, because he could have preferred to have waited until he found the book posted online for free, had he known that it would be.

Further, you are right about point "1." in your response: the two books you mention in point 1 have the same chapters listed in their Tables of Contents.

However, there is a big exception to my agreement with your quote above: namely, it strongly appears to me that Google Books lacks Volume Two of the collection you mentioned. Although you gave two links, in fact the links are in content the same link repeated in a row. When I did a Google Book Search myself, it only showed Volume 1 of the series.

In any case it's a good recommendation: the Table of Contents has chapters with interesting titles for the topic of the liturgy, dealing with Syrian and Byzantine liturgies, for example. And I am glad to see you are pleased with this recommendation. Smiley

Peace.
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« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2012, 01:14:28 PM »

Dear ialmisry,

When you say:

I thought I might add this question to this thread.  Which rite today that's considered the closest to an ancient Jewish liturgy?  Is it the Syriac rite?  Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?
Yes (but not by very much), and yes.
I am not sure if you mean the Syriac rite is (a)not close by very much to an ancient Jewish liturgy, or (b), not very much closer than others to the ancient Jewish liturgy.
I agree with you in one sense: it was not very close because it has lots of ideas about the New Testament, has the Eurcharist, and many other Christian elements of that naturally didn't exist in the pre-Christian liturgies. But I disagree in a basic sense: the St James' liturgy and ancient Jewish liturgy share a similar overall scheme, with introductory prayers, more prayers, a reading and sermon, more prayers, and a benediction.

I agree with your interesting and informative response when you wrote:
Quote
Quote
So I can imagine the Jerusalem rite was THE Jewish rite, but in a Christian setting?
Yes, that was the case everywhere.  The Church had first grown in the synagogues throughout the empire and beyond.
Except that I think the "case" mentioned above is the Jerusalem rite being a Christian rite created with the Jewish rite as its major basis, rather than the Jewish rite merely being in a Christian setting, like with Christian themes. To me, the ritutal of the Eucharist- Christ's body and blood- is significantly different from the Jewish rite of Passover-the lamb, although it is a changed continuation of it. So I am not certain how best to characterize it, but I think it goes beyond a mere Christian setting to actual Christian elements, which are a transformation of elements of the Jewish rite.

You also made a good explanation of how it is that the case with the Jerusalen rite was the case everywhere. Naturally, the rites practiced by the early Christians would have spread from their foundation location in Jerusalem as the Christian communities themselves spread abroad. And as you correctly pointed out, the Church first grew in the synagogues throughout the empire, as for example in Acts Paul is recorded as preaching in Antioch's synagogue, which was in the eastern edge of the Roman empire. And the church also apparently spread beyond the empire at that time, as there are stories of Christianity spreading early on farther east than the empire, as in Iraq and India. This is foreseeable because of the commandment to spread Christianity around the world in Acts 1.

I am confused when you write:
Quote
Hence how every DL has a Liturgy of the Word, which was the synagouge service incorporated with the Liturgy of the Eucharist which had been done in homes, and which replaced the cult in the Temple.
Naturally, your previous sentence explains why every liturgy would have the basic elements of the synagogue service combined with the Eucharist. Namely, these two important elements naturally began as Christianity itself began and then spread throughout the empire. These elements of the service are very basic and thus are expected to have spread with Christianity itself.

However, when you say the "DL has a Liturgy of the Word, which was the synagouge service incorporated with the Liturgy of the Eucharist", grammatically it sounds like you mean the Liturgy of the Word included both the synagogue service and the Eucharist, since the words "which was" are directly preceded by the term "Liturgy of the Word", suggesting it is the Liturgy of the Word that includes both of those two elements. Yet it seems more likely to me that you mean the Divine Liturgy includes both the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, since I know the DL has the Eucharist, but I assume the Liturgy of the Word refers to the synagogue service alone, since I assume "the Word" refers to reading from the Bible and is different from the Liturgy of the Eucharist, which you described next as the replacement of the cult of the Temple.

The Temple cult, as Hebrews 9 explains, was similar to our idea of Christ in the Eucharist as the Passover lamb, which was part of the Temple Cult. And I also remember hearing that the Eucharist was celebrated in the homes. Thus it makes more sense to me that you were distinguishing the Liturgy of the Eucharist associated with the Temple Cult with another Liturgy associated with the synagogue- the Liturgy of the Word, because then you would have named two liturgies associated with two different Jewish rites.

It's nice writing with you. You know alot and have insights.

Kind Regards.
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« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2012, 01:16:32 PM »

GregoryLA,

I am not sure about your words:
Quote
I'm certainly no expert but I think most academics (if you trust academics) don't think there's any evidence for a single rite to begin with but rather see a large amount of diversity from the earliest layers of the historical record.
It makes sense that the early Christians would have had a diversity of religious practices, as for example I somewhat remember St Paul instructing Christians about right and wrong ways of making religious observances. From this it's to be expected that there were different practices among Christians.

But at the same time, it seems to me that there may be a single liturgy at the beginning, and this could have been simply the Jewish synagogue liturgy with some Christian additions. Naturally, this depends on how one defines liturgy. It seems to me that simply breaking bread and sharing the Eucharist isn't enough to make a liturgy, which I associate with a set of prayers and Bible reading. However, if the Eucharist is enough to make a liturgy, then I assume there was an initital liturgy in the form of the Eucharist when it was first begun.

Another possibility I can see is that the Eucharist was one form of initial liturgy, and another initial liturgy was the Synagogue service, with Christian elements. Thus there could have been two liturgies that formed an initial set of rituals, making a single rite.

I assume academics take different viewpoints on this question, but revolve around part or all of these ideas I mentioned, because they seem natural to me.

You asked Minasoliman: "Which ancient Jewish liturgy (temple cult, synagogue service?) and in what time period?"

It appears he means a time period before Christianity became an official religion in the Roman Empire, the eastern half of which became known as Byzantium, as he asked in part: "Did Jerusalem used to have its own rite before the Byzantinization?"

However, he did not specify the time period or type of Jewish liturgy he was asking about. And it appears he didn't have a specific one of either in mind as he responded to you only by saying that he was the one asking the questions on this topic.

But to explain the question better: he said "an" ancient Jewish liturgy, which leaves open which liturgy could be the one to which the current liturgy is closest to. So for example, a current liturgy that is closer to either the Temple service or synagogue service in any time period would be the correct answer so long as it was closer than any other current liturgy to either one of those Jewish services in any time period.

I agree with you when you say: "It's also possible that an extant rite based off the ancient Jerusalem rite(s) has maintained a more archaic form in some places than a rite that has had a more direct evolution from the ancient Jerusalem rite."
For example, I imagine that a western rite could have a more direct evolution from the ancient Jerusalem rite. The ancient rite could have been simpler than the present Liturgy of St James due to the small size and beginning nature of the early Church at the time the ancient rite was made. In this case, it could be that this western rite copied this simpler ancient rite, and then passed it down such that the major alterations made to the liturgy occurred, say, a few centuries later. The Liturgy of St James, on the other hand, could have a more indirect evolution from the ancient rite, in that stronger innovations could have been made in different times and places before its current structure. After all, the Liturgy of St James is long, compared to the standard liturgy used in the Russian and Greek Orthodox Churches- the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. And yet since the liturgy of St James is from at least the 2nd to 5th centuries AD, it could be more archaic than such a western liturgy that could have a later date with fewer significant changes.

Thanks for sharing "the recommendations [you] got from a professor of liturgics at the University of Oslo".

I am not sure the professor is right when he suggests:"Bradshaw's elementary introduction, "Early Christian Worship" (1996), is a good place to start, and also return to later even when one has learned more - sober and basic.
This is because I am not sure about how good Bradshaw's book is because one of the reviews on Amazon says:
Quote
Bradshaw consistently questions Biblical record when they are not consistent with his extrabiblical findings, even if those extrabiblical findings rely on many assumptions and guesses. For example, a number of times he casts doubt on the reliability of Matthew 28:18-20 (The Great Commission) as being added to the text later when there is absolutely no textual evidence of this. According to the Metzger's Textual Commentary, there is no question among the textual critics that the rendering that we have for these verses is autographic. Yet, Bradshaw in true redaction form, flippantly, as if it were common knowledge that these were added, blows them off as not being acceptable as a true saying of Jesus. From this example and others with which I am familiar, I fear for the accuracy and trustworthiness of Bradshaw's conclusions. Therefore, I cannot recommend this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Early-Christian-Worship-Introduction-Practice/dp/0814624294
But it does sound like a sober and basic book as the review also says: "The book is very accessible. The scholar may wish for some more detail and probably more thorough documentation. However for the lay reader who is interested in the subject, the format makes it a very easy read."

I agree with the recommendation of Marcel Metzger's "History of the Liturgy". One review says positively:
Quote
"This little volume is written by a Roman Catholic from a Roman point of view but will be of interest to anyone interested in the development of Christian liturgy. It does no go over much into a description of the conduct of the rites themselves but instead describes their context, what prompted various practices and how those practices changed over time."
http://www.amazon.com/History-Liturgy-Stages-Marcel-Metzger/dp/0814624332

I am not sure the professor is right when he says: "Concerning the Eucharist, Bradshaw's 'Eucharistic Origins' is standard." After all, the Book Description on Amazon presents it as if the book takes a different view than the standard one:
Quote
Origins of the Eucharist explored in a new way which questions traditional opinion A different picture of the origins of the eucharist from the traditionally received one. The author argues that the Last Supper did not play as important a part in the formulation of the Eucharist as is popularly thought.
http://www.amazon.com/Eucharistic-Origins-Paul-Bradshaw/dp/0281056153

I agree with the recommendation "Baptism: Maxwell Johnson, "The Rites of Christian Initiation" ". One review of the book on Amazon says:
Quote
This is an excellent text for serious students of Christian History and Liturgists. The content is comprehensive and well sourced. It may be a challenging read for those not familiar with the subject matter. I do highly recommend it for those interested in the study of the Liturgy, particularly the rites of Christian initiation. http://www.amazon.com/Rites-Christian-Initiation-Evolution-Interpretation/dp/0814660118

I agree with the recommendation "Concerning the Daily Office: Robert Taft, "The Liturgy of the Hours in East and West"", as a review on Amazon explains:
Quote
Taft is one of the world's leading liturgical experts, and here he demonstrates his mastery of how the Church "redeemed the time". I really appreciate not only his style of writing, but the way he integrates primary sources into the text without feeling disjointed.

While highly technical, and not something that could be used for devotional material per se (see the excellent duo For the Life of the World: Sacraments and Orthodoxy or Hymn of Entry: Liturgy and Life in the Orthodox Church (Contemporary Greek Theologians Series , No 1) for that), Taft does cover every historical detail in an organized manner, beginning with the Jewish background to prayer as practiced in the New Testament moving chronologically forward. Both Eastern (Byzantine, Coptic, African, Armenian etc) and Western theologies and practices (Roman and Reformed) are covered in detail.
http://www.amazon.com/Liturgy-Hours-East-West/dp/0814614051

I also agree with your recommendation "Church Year: Thomas Talley, "Origins of the Church Year"..." since the website "Academic" (http://universalium.academic.ru/262986/church_year) recommends it, saying: "Thomas J. Talley, The Origins of the Liturgical Year (1986), is a fresh reading of the early evidence."

Since I also read favorable reviews of Sanders' book, and besides your opinion you state straightforward facts describing it, I agree with you when you recommend: "E.P. Sanders "Judaism: Practice and Belief 66 BCE- 63 CE" is a good intro. to Judaism at the time of the birth of Christianity as well. It covers all parts of Jewish life though, not just liturgics."
However, I am confused why you begin your mention of his book with the term "Edit:":
Quote
Edit: E.P. Sanders "Judaism: Practice and Belief 66 BCE- 63 CE" is a good intro. to Judaism at the time of the birth of Christianity as well. It covers all parts of Jewish life though, not just liturgics.
After all, the Amazon page for the book describes him as the author rather than the editor, and it seemed to me you might have been referring to him as an editor when you wrote "Edit". Another possibility I thought of is that you meant you were editing in a postcript recommendation into your message, but I don't see a strong reason for you  to point out that this would have been a later "edit" of your message.

Your avatar is kind of neat.

Health and Happiness to you!
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« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2012, 01:24:45 PM »

Dear FatherHLL,

I am not sure about your answer

Quote
Quote
Is there a good book to read about ancient rites and liturgies?
Depends upon how deep you want to go.
If he wants to go to a level in the ancient rites and liturgies that is so extremely deep a book of this depth hasn't been written, it seems there is naturally no good book on the topic for him, in that it won't satisfy his desire. But perhaps some book could still be good in the sense of meeting most people's desires and expectations for a book on the topic, as after all it is an important topic for Orthodoxy and many books have been written on the subject.

I trust you are right as a matter of straightforward facts when you say:
Quote
Brightman's collection is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology." However, it is rather expensive. When I purchased it years back it was $80. Also, with this source, only some of the liturgies are translated into English, so you have to know your Greek.
After all, if the works are in a collection about liturgies, as Minasoliman mentioned in his reply, and even are produced in the Greek language- then it makes sense that it is very helpful in "liturgical archaeology", a term one site explains as follows:
Quote
"When they rebuilt the altar, they did so on foundations that were already there. This is a principle we should remember today. Designing worship requires some “liturgical archeology”—seeking for the best of what has gone before, and using it in service to today"
http://tomtrinidad.wordpress.com/2011/11/22/11-20-11-laying-the-foundations-ezra-3-sermon-outline
Because the collection goes so much into the description of the old liturgies, it makes sense that it would be very helpful in looking for the best of those old liturgies and using them in service today, which would be a straightforward application of the term described above. Plus, since you purchased it for such a high price, you would have a pretty good memory of the price, although I allow that you could be giving a round number here for the sake of conversation- but maybe not. Smiley
And yes, that is expensive, considering some Bibles for example can be purchased for $6-$25.
And yes the reader would need to know his/her Greek to understand the liturgies in the book, since you say your book gives them sometimes only in Greek.

Of course "The Brightman work to which [you were] referring is called Eastern Liturgies by Gorgias press", since I expect you would know what book by Brightman you were referring to only about 7 hours earlier.

And such a book exists:

I am glad to see your response to Minasoliman's words that the book was online and he was thankful for your recommendation:
Quote
Very good! I have made much use of the book between the time that I had it and the time that it came out in googlebooks, so no need to feel bad about the good news.
Yes, his response is very good because it suggests you apparently answered his important question OK. Plus, it's very good that the book is online for free, because a wider number of people will view it, since the $80 price for the hysical book would deter some prospective readers from reading it.
Plus, I am glad that you have found so much use for the book before it came out on Google Books that you conclude "no need to feel bad about" it. And naturally if you have used the book to a large enough extent in that period, the purchase was not waste of $80. Plus, there are advantages to having the book in physical form, like being able to read it in places where you would have a much harder time reading it online, like on a bus.

You wrote:
Quote
Quote
So far as I can tell, the rite of Jerusalem was the prototype form of the Liturgy of Saint James, and that the Liturgy of Antioch became highly based off of it. I suppose this would mean that the West Syrian rite is probably the most similar remaining rite to that of the ancient Jerusalem.
I would disagree with this. All local rites, whether Chalcedonian or not, went through a period of standardization giving us what we have today. The west Syrian rite has been "standardized" and trimmed to a point in which you can hardly tell the difference in about 8 different anaphoras. Whereas the "Byzantine" standardization was to basically leave the anaphoras themselves alone, but to make uniform prescribed litanies (for example, the prothesis litany belonged originally to the Caesarean liturgy, i.e. St. Basil, and was added later to the "liturgy of the Apostles" aka St. John Chrysostom, and the triple litany ektenia to both at a later time), the west Syrian rite amended the anaphoras of various liturgies to make them of standard length and replaced certain distinctive elements with uniform clauses. The Byzantine standardization let the anaphoras (Jerusalemite, Syrian and Caesarean; i.e. James, Chrysostom and Basil) remain essentially "as is" in length and substance, with only the intro, mentioning of the diocesan hierarch, and the elevation being standardized, not seeing the need to shorten one or lengthen another to conform to the rest, but added "conforming litanies" to the rest of the liturgy, the standard antiphonal intro before the entrance, etc. However, the current Syrian usage does allow us to see elements of the Ante-Caesarian rite, for example, although shortened from their original form.

I am not sure I agree with you and your reasoning when you conclude that you disagree with deusveritasest's statement above. He stated that Jerusalem's rite was the protoype of St James' liturgy, and your basis for disagreeing is that all local rites- such as the Antiochene rite to which the Liturgy of St James belongs- underwent standardization. You also give examples of litanies being added to the liturgies to give examples of such standardizations. Nonetheless, I doubt that this prevents the rite of Jerusalem being the prototype of St James' liturgy, or even the Liturgy of Antioch being highly based on it. For example, if I buy a car and then make some secondary changes to it(like the changes to the early Christian Jerusalem liturgy that made it St James' liturgy), the car is still based on its original makeup. And if I then take the changed car and add significant pieces to it (like St James' liturgy incorporated litanies during the standardization), then the current car's prototype is still the original car. If you take your car to the car shop and make lots of changes and additions, the car's prototype, or previous model, is still the original car.

If the changes were very strong to the Antiochene Liturgy during the standardization, then I am not sure whether this means the Antiochene Liturgy is any longer highly based on the earlier form. After all, if you get lots of tune-up additions to your car- eg. better wheels, better windshield, better paint, better steering etc.- it isn't clear if the car is still highly based on its original form. On one hand, it seems that the core of the car, or a big portion of most of its most basic, important parts are the same and this the car is highly based on its original form. On the other hand, since many important changes have been made it seems that perhaps the car isn't "highly based" on its original form either. I can see either way on this.

However, I believe you as a matter of straightforward facts when you write:
Quote
All local rites, whether Chalcedonian or not, went through a period of standardization giving us what we have today. The west Syrian rite has been "standardized" and trimmed to a point in which you can hardly tell the difference in about 8 different anaphoras. Whereas the "Byzantine" standardization was to basically leave the anaphoras themselves alone, but to make uniform prescribed litanies (for example, the prothesis litany belonged originally to the Caesarean liturgy, i.e. St. Basil, and was added later to the "liturgy of the Apostles" aka St. John Chrysostom, and the triple litany ektenia to both at a later time), the west Syrian rite amended the anaphoras of various liturgies to make them of standard length and replaced certain distinctive elements with uniform clauses. The Byzantine standardization let the anaphoras (Jerusalemite, Syrian and Caesarean; i.e. James, Chrysostom and Basil) remain essentially "as is" in length and substance, with only the intro, mentioning of the diocesan hierarch, and the elevation being standardized, not seeing the need to shorten one or lengthen another to conform to the rest, but added "conforming litanies" to the rest of the liturgy, the standard antiphonal intro before the entrance, etc. However, the current Syrian usage does allow us to see elements of the Ante-Caesarian rite, for example, although shortened from their original form.
Except I am not sure when you write: "the prothesis litany belonged originally to the Caesarean liturgy, i.e. St. Basil, and was added later to the "liturgy of the Apostles" aka St. John Chrysostom". This is because I read in Google Books that: "The normal form of the Caesarean Litgurgy is that of S. Basil. This on the one hand branches out into that of S. Chrysostom; on the other, into the Armenian." (http://books.google.com/books?id=IOwkpIAXAGoC&pg=PR11&lpg=PR11&dq=basil+liturgy+cesarean&source=bl&ots=muPqxY32LB&sig=Hc7to5GtTVdtipeTLezmDjaArgo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=40tST-38MdHq0QHb5KjqBw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=basil%20liturgy%20cesarean&f=false)

And Wikipedia says:
"The various extant anaphoras attributed to St. Basil in the various Eastern Christian rites may may be classified into two families: Caesarian (or Byzantine) and the Alexandrian (or Coptic)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_Saint_Basil


So, it appears that St John Chrysostom's liturgy is one form of the Caesarean liturgy and thus it doesn't make sense to say it was part of the Caesarean liturgy and then was added into St Chrysostom's liturgy, since one is part of the other. But perhaps you meant that the prothesis litany was part of St Basil's liturgy and then was added to St Chrysostom's liturgy, which would make sense because they are separate liturgies.

Your response shows alot of knowledge about liturgical development on your part! It makes sense that there was such standardization, as Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, and naturally standardization made it easier and simpler for many people across the big empire to serve the liturgies. And naturally, the current Syrian usage allows us to see elements of the Ante-Caesarian rite, and by "Caesarian rite" you apparently mean the rite's form at the time Christianity became the officially recognized religion and the rites were standardized during this period. The current Syrian usage allows us to see those elements because naturally it retains some elements, because of course it was not completely replaced during the standardization, or else it wouldn't have kept the same name of the rite at all. Had it been completely replaced, it would have just an absolutely "standard", non-unique name, since everything unique in it would have been standardized away! And we can see the prior elements you mentioned, I suppose, by comparing the current rite with other standardized liturgies and contrasting the standard elements with the unique ones, with the unique elements being those of the Ante-Caesarian rite.

Still, I am alittle confused. Here you contrast the Byzantine Standarization with the amendment to the liturgies made by the west Syrian rite. Consequently, it seems to me that you are talking of a Byzantine Standardization as separate from a West Syrian one. You also specify that the standardization in the west Syrian rite amounted to strongly trimming and standardizing the 8 different anaphoras, but that is all you mention of its standardization. This doesn't clarify to me that the West Syrian rite underwent the Byzantine Standardization. And in fact since the standardizations appear separate, it sounds likely that the West Syrian rite didn't undergo the Byzantine standardization. Furthermore, although the anaphoras are important, they do not make up most of the liturgy. So in that case, it appears that St James' liturgy in its west Syrian form would still have the ancient Jerusalem rite as its prototype, and the west Syrian form of the Antiochene Rite would be highly based on the ancient Jerusalem rite, since the Antiocene rite includes St James' liturgy.

God give you many years. Smiley
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« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2012, 01:34:23 PM »

Jesus' disciples, to name a few...
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« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2012, 01:42:57 PM »

As one who converted to Christianity (Eastern Catholicism) from Judaism and still consider myself as a Jew, I fail to see how this thread furthers the stated purpose of this sub-forum, i.e. "discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome".  Not that it's not interesting in and of itself because it is, I'm just thinking this might not be the most appropriate place for it.
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« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2012, 01:47:28 PM »

As one who converted to Christianity (Eastern Catholicism) from Judaism and still consider myself as a Jew, I fail to see how this thread furthers the stated purpose of this sub-forum, i.e. "discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome".  Not that it's not interesting in and of itself because it is, I'm just thinking this might not be the most appropriate place for it.

J. Michael,

Yes, the question itself "Who are the Notable Orthodox of Jewish Origin?" isn't focused on Catholicism. But how I got to this question, and the opening post, are to a large extent.

The opening post is about the Hebrew Catholic group and a long list of Catholics of Jewish origin, and my question is about analogies in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2012, 01:56:44 PM »

As one who converted to Christianity (Eastern Catholicism) from Judaism and still consider myself as a Jew, I fail to see how this thread furthers the stated purpose of this sub-forum, i.e. "discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome".  Not that it's not interesting in and of itself because it is, I'm just thinking this might not be the most appropriate place for it.

J. Michael,

The opening post is about the Hebrew Catholic group and my question is about whether there is an analogy in the Orthodox Church.

Okay, I can see that.  And the word "Catholic" appears in your post about 6 times.  But the last sentence of your post "Is there a list of Notable Christians from before the Schism, and Orthodox afterwards, of Jewish Origin, especially in the HolyLand/Israel/Palestine?", and the one which obviously set the tone for the whole rest of the discussion, not to mention the very title of the thread,  speak otherwise.  Nowhere else in this thread, other than your op is there any discussion of any issues which unite and divide Orthodoxy and Catholicism.  I have *no* objection* whatsoever to the thread or what's being discussed in it--just its location.
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« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2012, 02:14:05 PM »

Believe it or not, there actually are and have been Russians who decided that communion with Rome was important, most notably Nicholas Tolstoy, who entered into that communion entirely of his own volition.
Which Nicholas Tolstoy do you mean?  The British historian?  If so his mother is English and his parents divorced when he was 4 years old.
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« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2012, 02:53:21 PM »

J Michael,

About the topic, I think this is arguable either way. The topic basically notes something in Catholicism and asks for an analogy in Orthodox. But the focus of the analogy in Orthodoxy is of course something in Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism.

It is interesting for me that you came to Christianity from Judaism. Would you be able to say alittle bit about this?

And would you happen to know of some prominent Orthodox from Jewish backgrounds, or a similar group in Orthodoxy to the Hebrew Catholics?
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« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2012, 03:04:02 PM »

J Michael,

About the topic, I think this is arguable either way. The topic basically notes something in Catholicism and asks for an analogy in Orthodox. But the focus of the analogy in Orthodoxy is of course something in Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism.

It is interesting for me that you came to Christianity from Judaism. Would you be able to say alittle bit about this?

And would you happen to know of some prominent Orthodox from Jewish backgrounds, or a similar group to the Hebrew Catholics?


Dear Rakovsky,

The Readers Digest version of my conversion: My wife is ByzCath raised in the Roman church. I was(am) a Jew, though raised in a totally secular household.  I lived in Israel for 5 years. Approximately 13 years ago, I went here: http://www.emmitsburg.net/grotto/ one day, stood in front of a statue of the Theotokos, and that was that! Converted to Catholicism in the Ruthenian Rite. Spent some time in the "desert" of Orthodoxy  Grin, and then came back "home" to the Catholic Church. We now worship in a Roman Catholic parish. I feel equally at home there as in a ByzCath parish, and love them both immensely. Go figure!   Wink

I no longer have any particular interest in Orthodox from Jewish backgrounds, and can't think of any others off the top of my head apart from those already mentioned.

I know of no other groups similar to the Hebrew Catholics.  But then, I haven't searched them out, either.
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2012, 03:57:41 PM »

My friend is a convert from Judaism.  She's not famous but she's awesome.
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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2012, 04:21:16 PM »

Brother Nathanael
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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2012, 05:18:58 PM »

Brother Nathanael
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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2012, 06:11:35 PM »

Wasn't St. John Chrysostom born and raised a Jew before coming to Christianity?
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« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2012, 07:35:59 PM »

Wasn't St. John Chrysostom born and raised a Jew before coming to Christianity?
Apparently no- Greek-Syrian and pagan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chrysostom

Quote
John was born in Antioch in 349 to Greco-Syrian parents. Different scholars describe his mother Anthusa as a pagan[10] or as a Christian, and his father was a high ranking military officer.[11] John's father died soon after his birth and he was raised by his mother.

He was baptised in 368 or 373 and tonsured as a reader (one of the minor orders of the Church).[12] As a result of his mother's influential connections in the city, John began his education under the pagan teacher Libanius. From Libanius, John acquired the skills for a career in rhetoric, as well as a love of the Greek language and literature.[13]

As he grew older, however, he became more deeply committed to Christianity and went on to study theology under Diodore of Tarsus, founder of the re-constituted School of Antioch. According to the Christian historian Sozomen, Libanius was supposed to have said on his deathbed that John would have been his successor "if the Christians had not taken him from us".

The Aramaic speaking Christians in the Holy Land were referred to by the Crusaders as "Syrians" based on their language and thus I think the term Syrian could be given in a linguistic or broad sense to Christians of Jewish background (and perhaps even nonChristian Jews) who spoke Syrian (Aramaic). Nonetheless his mother- even if she was the syrian in his background- chose for him to study from a pagan.
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« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2012, 01:39:49 PM »


I spoke with Met Hilarion about him.

He said he is just a novice Monk and he is not connected to ROCOR.

He told me that he had aggressively attacked union with Moscow but later changed his mind and took all the attacks on ROCOR off his web page and sent an  apology
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« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2012, 02:01:13 PM »

Boris Pasternak, the author of Doctor Zhivago, was a Jewish convert to the Russian Orthodox Church.
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