Topic: Attending/communing in churches not in communion with your own

[deusveritasest]

Split off from http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30432.0.html
-Schultz.

I use to go to A Genuine Greek Old Calendar Church here in Chicago

And.... you weren't bothered that you're not in communion with them?

[stashko]

I use to go to A Genuine Greek Old Calendar Church here in Chicago

And.... you weren't bothered that you're not in communion with them?

We Share One Core Belief That Never Changed,So No It Didn't Bother Me One Bit,Plus Our Traditions Small and Great...Are Intact With them...May God Bless Them And May They Prosper and convert the world...

[Schultz]

I use to go to A Genuine Greek Old Calendar Church here in Chicago

And.... you weren't bothered that you're not in communion with them?

We Share One Core Belief That Never Changed,So No It Didn't Bother Me One Bit,Plus Our Traditions Small and Great...Are Intact With them...May God Bless Them And May They Prosper and convert the world...

You do realize that you've excommunicated yourself from your own Serbian church, right?

[stashko]

I use to go to A Genuine Greek Old Calendar Church here in Chicago

And.... you weren't bothered that you're not in communion with them?

We Share One Core Belief That Never Changed,So No It Didn't Bother Me One Bit,Plus Our Traditions Small and Great...Are Intact With them...May God Bless Them And May They Prosper and convert the world...

You do realize that you've excommunicated yourself from your own Serbian church, right?

No I don't accept or believe That I excomuncated myself ,,When Srbs Parted ways awhile Back ,We went to Both ...Everyone did it...Greek New Calander Jump Around As well,to either or......If they feel tradition is calling them they go...

[Schultz]

I use to go to A Genuine Greek Old Calendar Church here in Chicago

And.... you weren't bothered that you're not in communion with them?

We Share One Core Belief That Never Changed,So No It Didn't Bother Me One Bit,Plus Our Traditions Small and Great...Are Intact With them...May God Bless Them And May They Prosper and convert the world...

You do realize that you've excommunicated yourself from your own Serbian church, right?

No I didn't accept or believe it ,,When Srbs Parted ways awhile Back ,We went to Both ...Everyone did it...Greek New Calander Jump Around As well,to either or......If they feel tradition is calling them they go...

Well, I suppose it does rest on the fact if you received communion at the GGOCC church or not, but it doesn't matter what everyone else did.

You might as well have gone to a Roman Catholic church because, whether you think it or not, receiving communion at a church that is not in communion with your bishop is excommunicating yourself; according to traditional Orthodox belief, the Church is not there and you have put your soul in danger.

[augustin717]

I use to go to A Genuine Greek Old Calendar Church here in Chicago

And.... you weren't bothered that you're not in communion with them?

We Share One Core Belief That Never Changed,So No It Didn't Bother Me One Bit,Plus Our Traditions Small and Great...Are Intact With them...May God Bless Them And May They Prosper and convert the world...

You do realize that you've excommunicated yourself from your own Serbian church, right?

That's really stupid to say. Excommunication is way more formal of an affair than entertaining or expressing a slightly uncommon idea or wish.

[Justin Kissel]

That's really stupid to say. Excommunication is way more formal of an affair than entertaining or expressing a slightly uncommon idea or wish.

  I'm not sure which is worse, that you don't understand the situation being discussed, or that you don't understand the concept of self-excommunication.

[augustin717]

That's really stupid to say. Excommunication is way more formal of an affair than entertaining or expressing a slightly uncommon idea or wish.

  I'm not sure which is worse, that you don't understand the situation being discussed, or that you don't understand the concept of self-excommunication.

There is no "self-excommunication" in our Church. No "latae sententiae".

[Punch]

That's really stupid to say. Excommunication is way more formal of an affair than entertaining or expressing a slightly uncommon idea or wish.

  I'm not sure which is worse, that you don't understand the situation being discussed, or that you don't understand the concept of self-excommunication.

I have to agree that there is no "self excommunication".  The Priest either communes you or he does not.  If he continued to commune the fellow after he communed with the OC Greeks, he could not have been excommunicated.

[88Devin12]

That's really stupid to say. Excommunication is way more formal of an affair than entertaining or expressing a slightly uncommon idea or wish.

  I'm not sure which is worse, that you don't understand the situation being discussed, or that you don't understand the concept of self-excommunication.

I have to agree that there is no "self excommunication".  The Priest either communes you or he does not.  If he continued to commune the fellow after he communed with the OC Greeks, he could not have been excommunicated.

I disagree, there is definitely self-excommunication...

If an Orthodox Priest communes a known heretic, does that mean that known heretic is not excommunicated?

[Salpy]

I think Vassula Ryden was an example of self-excommunication from the Greek Orthodox Church. 

[Schultz]

Bull.

Are you trying to tell me that acceptance of officially schismatic sacraments is not a de facto excommunication?  If an individual's bishop is not in communion with another bishop and an individual accepts communion from the latter (via the priests under him), that individual is, in effect, telling his bishop that he is wrong and that the other bishop is right.

This is spiritual and ecclessial anarchy.  It is not Orthodoxy.  It is individual Protestantism under the guise of "traditional" Orthodoxy.  I ask the clergy of this forum to correct me if I'm wrong.

If, as we have discussed in another thread, that missing Liturgy three weeks in a row makes one "excommunicated," then accepting sacraments from a schismatic group must do the same, otherwise visiting the local Greek Catholic Church which believes it is "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" and does not teach the IC or papal infallibility and receiving communion there is a-okay.

[Punch]

Bull.

Are you trying to tell me that acceptance of officially schismatic sacraments is not a de facto excommunication?  If an individual's bishop is not in communion with another bishop and an individual accepts communion from the latter (via the priests under him), that individual is, in effect, telling his bishop that he is wrong and that the other bishop is right.

This is spiritual and ecclessial anarchy.  It is not Orthodoxy.  It is individual Protestantism under the guise of "traditional" Orthodoxy.  I ask the clergy of this forum to correct me if I'm wrong.

If, as we have discussed in another thread, that missing Liturgy three weeks in a row makes one "excommunicated," then accepting sacraments from a schismatic group must do the same, otherwise visiting the local Greek Catholic Church which believes it is "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" and does not teach the IC or papal infallibility and receiving communion there is a-okay.

That may be fine and dandy in areas that have a Bishop (or two or three in the same city).  What about the far flung areas?  I have been Orthodox for 16 years and have seen a Bishop twice in that time, only once one that I was supposedly under.  So, taking communion locally is not necessarily an affront.  In fact, if we want to get all canonical about the matter, one could say that I have no Bishop since the ancient norm was for every city to have one.  There are five Orthodox Churches in my city, and no cathedral.  Cry me a river.  The situation in the US of A is ecclesiastical anarchy and basically a question of which canons are convenient to follow at the time.  I communed with Copts once when my priest was not around, and was simply told that it was not a good idea.  No penance, no confession, just line up with the rest to commune the next Sunday, including not only OOs but open Masons.  No, it was not the Church that I belong to now.

Not saying it is right, just the way it is.

[stashko]

I never Communed in the Holy Genuine Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church ,,I would never, unless i  prepared myself by  fasting  for several days and went to confesson,then Holy Communion......As I was taught to do in the Serbian Orthodox Church....

[deusveritasest]

I use to go to A Genuine Greek Old Calendar Church here in Chicago

And.... you weren't bothered that you're not in communion with them?

We Share One Core Belief That Never Changed,So No It Didn't Bother Me One Bit,Plus Our Traditions Small and Great...Are Intact With them...May God Bless Them And May They Prosper and convert the world...

Again, you are essentially conveying to me a semi-invisibilist understanding of the Church that is based merely on adherence to the dogma of the Church, rendering the concept of schism totally meaningless.

[deusveritasest]

I use to go to A Genuine Greek Old Calendar Church here in Chicago

And.... you weren't bothered that you're not in communion with them?

We Share One Core Belief That Never Changed,So No It Didn't Bother Me One Bit,Plus Our Traditions Small and Great...Are Intact With them...May God Bless Them And May They Prosper and convert the world...

You do realize that you've excommunicated yourself from your own Serbian church, right?

That's really stupid to say. Excommunication is way more formal of an affair than entertaining or expressing a slightly uncommon idea or wish.

How is going to a schismatic "church" and most likely praying with the schismatics there (and possibly even taking Communion at their "church") simply "entertaining or expressing a slightly uncommon idea or wish"?!

[deusveritasest]

That's really stupid to say. Excommunication is way more formal of an affair than entertaining or expressing a slightly uncommon idea or wish.

  I'm not sure which is worse, that you don't understand the situation being discussed, or that you don't understand the concept of self-excommunication.

I have to agree that there is no "self excommunication".  The Priest either communes you or he does not.  If he continued to commune the fellow after he communed with the OC Greeks, he could not have been excommunicated.

Assuming the Priest even knew. 

[deusveritasest]

I communed with Copts once when my priest was not around

Ack!!! 

[augustin717]

I use to go to A Genuine Greek Old Calendar Church here in Chicago

And.... you weren't bothered that you're not in communion with them?

We Share One Core Belief That Never Changed,So No It Didn't Bother Me One Bit,Plus Our Traditions Small and Great...Are Intact With them...May God Bless Them And May They Prosper and convert the world...

You do realize that you've excommunicated yourself from your own Serbian church, right?

That's really stupid to say. Excommunication is way more formal of an affair than entertaining or expressing a slightly uncommon idea or wish.

How is going to a schismatic "church" and most likely praying with the schismatics there (and possibly even taking Communion at their "church") simply "entertaining or expressing a slightly uncommon idea or wish"?!

I've heard the Armenians commune Anglicans and such.

[deusveritasest]

I've heard the Armenians commune Anglicans and such.

Did you seriously just bring that up?

I'm the one who mentioned the Armenian communing of an Anglican.

Can you think of an instance where you had heard of this besides that thread I authored?

Anyway, I'm not one to hesitate in condemning that practice, so I don't see what your point is.

[stashko]

I've heard the Armenians commune Anglicans and such.

Did you seriously just bring that up?

I'm the one who mentioned the Armenian communing of an Anglican.

Can you think of an instance where you had heard of this besides that thread I authored?

Anyway, I'm not one to hesitate in condemning that practice, so I don't see what your point is.

For Me There More Eastern and Tradtional Orthodox Than the Orthodox are with all ecumenisim and what not ...Looove Them....

[deusveritasest]

For Me There More Eastern and Tradtional Orthodox Than the Orthodox are with all ecumenisim and what not ...Looove Them....

They might hold to the dogma of the Church more clearly. But it is not uncommon for heretics to be part of the graced Church of Christ. Schismatics, OTOH, are outside of the Church and thus without Sacraments. So in terms of redemption, it would actually be more efficacious for someone to be in a heterodox community within the Church than to be with schismatics.

[Punch]

Assuming the Priest even knew. 

In my case (granted this was long ago and much has changed), the priest did know because I told him.  Since Coptics were routinely communed in our Church, I thought the reverse was OK, too.  I found out that it was more complicated than that.

[stanley123]

For Me There More Eastern and Tradtional Orthodox Than the Orthodox are with all ecumenisim and what not ...Looove Them....

They might hold to the dogma of the Church more clearly. But it is not uncommon for heretics to be part of the graced Church of Christ. Schismatics, OTOH, are outside of the Church and thus without Sacraments. So in terms of redemption, it would actually be more efficacious for someone to be in a heterodox community within the Church than to be with schismatics.

Why is the Genuine Orthodox Church a schismatic Church?
It is remarkable because they say that they are genuine.

[stashko]

For Me There More Eastern and Tradtional Orthodox Than the Orthodox are with all ecumenisim and what not ...Looove Them....

They might hold to the dogma of the Church more clearly. But it is not uncommon for heretics to be part of the graced Church of Christ. Schismatics, OTOH, are outside of the Church and thus without Sacraments. So in terms of redemption, it would actually be more efficacious for someone to be in a heterodox community within the Church than to be with schismatics.

Why is the Genuine Orthodox Church a schismatic Church?
It is remarkable because they say that they are genuine.

Have No Fear, It's The Real Mc Coy....Ask Fr.Anastasois He will fill you in,Gosh I hope i spelled his Name Right....

[Justin Kissel]

For Me There More Eastern and Tradtional Orthodox Than the Orthodox are with all ecumenisim and what not ...Looove Them....

They might hold to the dogma of the Church more clearly. But it is not uncommon for heretics to be part of the graced Church of Christ. Schismatics, OTOH, are outside of the Church and thus without Sacraments. So in terms of redemption, it would actually be more efficacious for someone to be in a heterodox community within the Church than to be with schismatics.

Why is the Genuine Orthodox Church a schismatic Church?
It is remarkable because they say that they are genuine.

The GOC split from the Church of Greece over the calendar change issue. So there is this idea that one of them is schismatic, and one is not, and you have to take your pick as to which one is which.

[stanley123]

For Me There More Eastern and Tradtional Orthodox Than the Orthodox are with all ecumenisim and what not ...Looove Them....

They might hold to the dogma of the Church more clearly. But it is not uncommon for heretics to be part of the graced Church of Christ. Schismatics, OTOH, are outside of the Church and thus without Sacraments. So in terms of redemption, it would actually be more efficacious for someone to be in a heterodox community within the Church than to be with schismatics.

Why is the Genuine Orthodox Church a schismatic Church?
It is remarkable because they say that they are genuine.

The GOC split from the Church of Greece over the calendar change issue. So there is this idea that one of them is schismatic, and one is not, and you have to take your pick as to which one is which.

So you can't go to communion in the Genuine Orthodox Church because they use a variant on the standard calendar?   A different calendar seems like a trivial reason to be excommunicated for, especially since a lot of canonical Orthodox use the Old Calendar. Is excommunication taken seriously in the Orthodox Church or do you generally go ahead and make exceptions based on the economy theory? 

[Justin Kissel]

So you can't go to communion in the Genuine Orthodox Church because they use a variant on the standard calendar?   A different calendar seems like a trivial reason to be excommunicated for, especially since a lot of canonical Orthodox use the Old Calendar. Is excommunication taken seriously in the Orthodox Church or do you generally go ahead and make exceptions based on the economy theory?  

I agree that the calendar is a silly thing to divide over.  However, some Orthodox in the 1920's and 1930's decided that changing the calendar meant that some Orthodox were therefore deprived of grace (some traditionalists would throw in the idea that it's ecumenism that is the real issue... I tend to disagree).

[Michał]

So you can't go to communion in the Genuine Orthodox Church because they use a variant on the standard calendar?   A different calendar seems like a trivial reason to be excommunicated for, especially since a lot of canonical Orthodox use the Old Calendar. Is excommunication taken seriously in the Orthodox Church or do you generally go ahead and make exceptions based on the economy theory?  

I agree that the calendar is a silly thing to divide over.  However, some Orthodox in the 1920's and 1930's decided that changing the calendar meant that some Orthodox were therefore deprived of grace (some traditionalists would throw in the idea that it's ecumenism that is the real issue... I tend to disagree).

The division isn't really about the calendar itself. It's about alleged non-canonical actions, ecumenism, sergianism, the so-called new soteriology, etc.

[Justin Kissel]

The division isn't really about the calendar itself. It's about alleged non-canonical actions, ecumenism, sergianism, the so-called new soteriology, etc.

So say modern traditionalists. As far as the GOC is concerned, go back and read their documents from the first 20-30 years of their existence, and see how much they talk about ecumenism, sergianism, etc.

[Michał]

As far as the GOC is concerned, go back and read their documents from the first 20-30 years of their existence, and see how much they talk about ecumenism, sergianism, etc.

But I guess they did talk at least about non-canonical actions. Anyway, even if the things I listed weren't the direct reasons of the schism, they are what keeps it from ceasing today.

[Iconodule]

For Me There More Eastern and Tradtional Orthodox Than the Orthodox are with all ecumenisim and what not ...Looove Them....

They might hold to the dogma of the Church more clearly. But it is not uncommon for heretics to be part of the graced Church of Christ. Schismatics, OTOH, are outside of the Church and thus without Sacraments. So in terms of redemption, it would actually be more efficacious for someone to be in a heterodox community within the Church than to be with schismatics.

Why is the Genuine Orthodox Church a schismatic Church?
It is remarkable because they say that they are genuine.

Have No Fear, It's The Real Mc Coy....Ask Fr.Anastasois He will fill you in,Gosh I hope i spelled his Name Right....

If they are the "Real McCoy," then you and I are both heretics attending graceless churches. Unless you really believe that, it's nonsense to call these schismatics "the Real McCoy."

[Heorhij]

Speaking of languages, I love learning a new language, and in this regard I am so blessed to be with Greeks, myself not being a Greek. I never understood people who get mad because they want the language of Orthodox services in the USA to be exclusively English. It is such a delight to discover a new language. If I live to my retirement, I will spend more time learning languages.

[Michał]

Speaking of languages, I love learning a new language, and in this regard I am so blessed to be with Greeks, myself not being a Greek. I never understood people who get mad because they want the language of Orthodox services in the USA to be exclusively English. It is such a delight to discover a new language.

But, if I recall correctly, you said you didn't like the fact that Church Slavonic is used in some churches. Why isn't it a delight to discover this particular language?

[GregoryLA]

So you can't go to communion in the Genuine Orthodox Church because they use a variant on the standard calendar?   A different calendar seems like a trivial reason to be excommunicated for, especially since a lot of canonical Orthodox use the Old Calendar. Is excommunication taken seriously in the Orthodox Church or do you generally go ahead and make exceptions based on the economy theory?  

I agree that the calendar is a silly thing to divide over.  However, some Orthodox in the 1920's and 1930's decided that changing the calendar meant that some Orthodox were therefore deprived of grace (some traditionalists would throw in the idea that it's ecumenism that is the real issue... I tend to disagree).

The division isn't really about the calendar itself. It's about alleged non-canonical actions, ecumenism, sergianism, the so-called new soteriology, etc.

What's the "so-called new soteriology"?

[Michał]

What's the "so-called new soteriology"?

Innovations in Orthodox soteriology observed by some Old Calendarist authors, especially Vladimir Moss: http://www.google.pl/search?q="new+soteriology"+site:orthodoxchristianbooks.com#q=%22new+soteriology%22+site:orthodoxchristianbooks.com

[Heorhij]

Speaking of languages, I love learning a new language, and in this regard I am so blessed to be with Greeks, myself not being a Greek. I never understood people who get mad because they want the language of Orthodox services in the USA to be exclusively English. It is such a delight to discover a new language.

But, if I recall correctly, you said you didn't like the fact that Church Slavonic is used in some churches. Why isn't it a delight to discover this particular language?

Because for about 20 years since Ukraine became an independent country, the jurisdiction ruled from Moscow imposes on Ukrainians the idea that the vernacular Ukrainian either does not exist, or is not "appropriate" for use in church. I am not against Old Church Slavonic per se - I am against the perennial Muscovite imperialism that uses Slavonic as one of its tools to hamper the development of the Ukrainian nation and state. (Sorry for this "political" twist on a non-political forum, but you asked and I gave you my honest answer.)

[Michał]

Speaking of languages, I love learning a new language, and in this regard I am so blessed to be with Greeks, myself not being a Greek. I never understood people who get mad because they want the language of Orthodox services in the USA to be exclusively English. It is such a delight to discover a new language.

But, if I recall correctly, you said you didn't like the fact that Church Slavonic is used in some churches. Why isn't it a delight to discover this particular language?

Because for about 20 years since Ukraine became an independent country, the jurisdiction ruled from Moscow imposes on Ukrainians the idea that the vernacular Ukrainian either does not exist, or is not "appropriate" for use in church. I am not against Old Church Slavonic per se - I am against the perennial Muscovite imperialism that uses Slavonic as one of its tools to hamper the development of the Ukrainian nation and state. (Sorry for this "political" twist on a non-political forum, but you asked and I gave you my honest answer.)

Thanks for clarification.

[Michał]

What's the "so-called new soteriology"?

Innovations in Orthodox soteriology observed by some Old Calendarist authors, especially Vladimir Moss: http://www.google.pl/search?q="new+soteriology"+site:orthodoxchristianbooks.com#q=%22new+soteriology%22+site:orthodoxchristianbooks.com

To make it clear: by "observed" I meant "noticed", not "followed".

[Shanghaiski]

For Me There More Eastern and Tradtional Orthodox Than the Orthodox are with all ecumenisim and what not ...Looove Them....

They might hold to the dogma of the Church more clearly. But it is not uncommon for heretics to be part of the graced Church of Christ. Schismatics, OTOH, are outside of the Church and thus without Sacraments. So in terms of redemption, it would actually be more efficacious for someone to be in a heterodox community within the Church than to be with schismatics.

It is possible to be in schism for reasons of conscience (such as over the calendar or over Sergianism) and still have grace. I do not see how it is possible for heretics, according to the Holy Fathers, to have grace. The issue over whether schismatics have grace or not really depends on the circumstances. Not all schisms are out of pride. Not all schisms end in heresy. So, it really all depends. Were we to get together with the Old Calendarists with whom we are not in communion, I would like to think that the churches in communion with New Calendar users would receive them easily. It would perhaps be different if a New Calendar Orthodox wanted to join certain Old Calendar groups, but it all depends. No black and white. Why do we insist on making things black and white?

[rakovsky]

According to the Thyetira Confession, which the EP accepts, if there is no Orthodox Church near you, you can have communion in a Catholic Church. I don't know if this exception officially extends to noncanonical "Orthodox" churches, to "Oriental" churches, or to Protestant churches - although some Orthodox think that an exception applies to those churches too.

[Michał]

According to the Thyetira Confession, which the EP accepts, if there is no Orthodox Church near you, you can have communion in a Catholic Church. I don't know if this exception officially extends to noncanonical "Orthodox" churches, to "Oriental" churches, or to Protestant churches - although some Orthodox think that an exception applies to those churches too.

According to the Statement of the Orthodox Church of Antioch on the Theological Dialogue (On the Relations between the Eastern and Syrian Orthodox Churches), "in localities where there is only one priest, from either [the Antiochian Orthodox Church or the Syrian Orthodox] Church, he will celebrate services for the faithful of both Churches, including the Divien Liturgy, pastoral duties, and holy matrimony. He will keep an independent record for each Church and transmit that of the sister Church to its authorities". I guess that this applies only to the Middle East.

[stanley123]

According to the Thyetira Confession, which the EP accepts, if there is no Orthodox Church near you, you can have communion in a Catholic Church. I don't know if this exception officially extends to noncanonical "Orthodox" churches, to "Oriental" churches, or to Protestant churches - although some Orthodox think that an exception applies to those churches too.

What is the status today of the Thyateira Confession? Who accepts it? 
This is just a guess on my part, but from reading some of the comments on this board, I would guess that there are some Orthodox who do not accept it.

[stashko]

Here's a video about the Old Calender Greek Churches 50 yrs Stuggle to Keep it's Ancient Traditions in Tact..
Its all In Greek But the hymn Sung is very beautiful....Watch Link Here.....Part One.....http://www.youtube.com/v/moENYpcpKDA?fs=1&hl=en_US
Some here in this part is in slavic...
Part Two.....http://www.youtube.com/v/t5nKe22liCk?fs=1&hl=en_US

[Fr. George]

According to the Thyetira Confession, which the EP accepts, if there is no Orthodox Church near you, you can have communion in a Catholic Church. I don't know if this exception officially extends to noncanonical "Orthodox" churches, to "Oriental" churches, or to Protestant churches - although some Orthodox think that an exception applies to those churches too.

I've never heard of this.