Author Topic: Science and religion aren't friends  (Read 783 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Science and religion aren't friends
« on: October 11, 2010, 05:08:25 PM »
From Jerry Coyne, U. of Chicago professor of ecology and evolution:

"And this leads to the biggest problem with religious "truth": There's no way of knowing whether it's true. I've never met a Christian, for instance, who has been able to tell me what observations about the universe would make him abandon his beliefs in God and Jesus."

Many Christians would say that if definitive proof appeared that eliminated the possibility of the resurrection, they would abandon belief in Jesus.

In addition, many Christians abandon their beliefs in God and Jesus every day, for various reasons, many of them discoverable on the internets. ::)

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline MyMapleStory

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: Science and religion aren't friends
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2010, 11:52:50 PM »
Are they supposed to be friends? religion and science are merely two different things for examining the world, Theology and philosophy deal with core metaphysical truths, whereas science deals with natural proofs.

Online Gamliel

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,231
  • ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστον βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: Science and religion aren't friends
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2010, 12:43:09 AM »
What is really too bad is that science and religion should be friends.  Science is simply studying what the LORD created.

Online Justin Kissel

  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 32,807
  • my finger points
Re: Science and religion aren't friends
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2010, 01:04:04 AM »
Quote
In addition, many Christians abandon their beliefs in God and Jesus every day, for various reasons, many of them discoverable on the internets.  ::)

I agree.  :police:

As far as science and religion, and metaphysics in particular, some must use a very narrow definition, because I think science has a lot to say about that area of intellectual exploration.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 01:05:19 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline Iconodule

  • Uranopolitan
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,029
  • "My god is greater."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Science and religion aren't friends
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2010, 12:36:57 PM »
There are as many different kinds of science as there are different philosophies. Some are more compatible with Christianity than others. Unfortunately, nowadays people use the generic term "science" to refer exclusively to the philosophy of Sir Francis Bacon.

Offline philalethe00

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
  • Photios Kontoglou, Apostle of Orthodox Culture
Re: Science and religion aren't friends
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2010, 02:09:22 PM »
Oh, I thought it was Dawkins at first...  :D Ok, the huge problem there is with this argumentation (of which I read some lines, but it's most predictable) is that it dates back to the Middle Ages of the West whom they, scientism-ists, positivists, so greatly abhor etc.... It's a problem of false gnosiology, method of obtaining knowledge. And the conclusion they can't avoid to step into is that reality is irrational.  :) Here, in Greece, some scientism-ists(I mean, followers of the scientism theory and philosophy)  have even proceeded to say that what they've been told about the miracles, eg., that Elders have made, or about healing sacred water etc., is this, it's irrational! Which means, as we sometimes say it here, "if the theory does not coincide with/fit reality, the worst for the reality"!

Maybe I'll come back to this. We shouldn't omit to say that Heresy of the Occident has a lot to do with this nonsense. For example, when Hawking said "then, we should know the mind of God", it was like a secularised Thomas d'Aquin. The were using(claiming to use) the same instrument: mind/brain!  
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 02:23:46 PM by philalethe00 »
"Look down from heaven, O Lord, upon those who bow their heads unto You, for they do not bow to flesh and blood, but to You, the awesome God".(D. Liturgy, St. John Chrysostom)
"When the world laughs, the saints, in crying, draw the Divine compassion onto humans."(Paul Evdokimov)

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Science and religion aren't friends
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2010, 02:06:29 AM »
Can a devout Muslim be a good scientist when he’s told that every
word in the Quran is the literal word of God?
....
Nidhal Guessoum is in a unique position to examine these questions.  He’s an Algerian-born astrophysicist who teaches at American University in the United Arab Emirates.  He’s also an observant Muslim steeped in the thorny debate over science and religion.
....
So what happened? Just a few centuries later, the scientific revolution took off in Europe instead of the Muslim world.

Guessoum: Indeed, it’s the great mystery.  Scholars are still trying to figure out what happened.  There were  several factors, but the decline of Islamic civilization was so much more striking because it coincided with Europe’s huge Renaissance and scientific revolution that began in the 15th and 16th centuries.  I think prosperity was one factor that led to the rise of Europe and the decline of the Islamic world.  Money always plays a role in science.

When you don’t have a lot of money, science, philosophy and art no longer look like reasonable  activities to fund.  Also, most of the scientific work in Europe was in Italy and England, with some in France and Germany, so there was a limited area.  But the Islamic world was huge.  It stretched from Morocco to Uzbekistan and perhaps all the way to China.  So it was very hard to keep a continuous civilization going when exchanges and interactions were so hard.  But more importantly, there were very few universities in the Muslim world where people came to study. There were some centers of learning, such as Baghdad, Cairo and Cordoba in Spain.  A few students would come to study, but there was no such thing as the university as we know it. The whole tradition of intellectual debate started to dwindle in the Arab and Islamic world.
 
So far your explanations have nothing to do with religion.  It’s striking that the scientific revolution took off in Europe when the Christian church still had enormous influence. But was there something about Islam itself that led to the decline of scientific culture?

Guessoum: Maybe some versions of Islam contributed to this decline.  But we can’t say it was about Islam, just like we can’t say it was about Christianity.  Some people today argue that modern science emerged because Christianity and Judaism had an idea of order in the universe.  These people believe that religion actually led to the emergence of modern science.  And for centuries, the Islamic world, led by Muslim rulers, developed science to the utmost.  But the versions of Islam that impose strict readings of scripture made it very hard.  If any religion, including Islam, denies the spirit of free inquiry, people can’t investigate and write what they want to write. That’s the end of science.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 02:07:57 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Ortho_cat

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,392
Re: Science and religion aren't friends
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2010, 02:33:28 AM »
From Jerry Coyne, U. of Chicago professor of ecology and evolution:

"And this leads to the biggest problem with religious "truth": There's no way of knowing whether it's true. I've never met a Christian, for instance, who has been able to tell me what observations about the universe would make him abandon his beliefs in God and Jesus."

Many Christians would say that if definitive proof appeared that eliminated the possibility of the resurrection, they would abandon belief in Jesus.

In addition, many Christians abandon their beliefs in God and Jesus every day, for various reasons, many of them discoverable on the internets. ::)



It's a shame that Dr. Coyne has such a narrow-minded view of Christians and religion in general. He is a really good author.