Author Topic: Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected  (Read 4707 times)

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Offline Anastasios

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Offline TomS

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2004, 03:17:44 PM »
I think it is probably good. Russia's initial jump into democracy did not go very well simply because it will take time for a generation of people raised under an autocratic and moral-less society to learn how it works. Baby steps. They need a strong leader to as they go through this transition.

Is Putin perfect? Of course not -- but how can you expect anyone raised under, and in Putin's case, who worked within that system understand how full democracy works. It will take time. Remember the Robber-Barons in out own history? It is a painful process that must occur.

Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2004, 04:58:54 PM »
I think Putin's done a good job so far.  I think things are slowly getting better there.  I do have to agree with Tom that things are going better now that they have slowed down democracy some.  I think taking baby steps is definitely better.  Under straight democracy, many of the people were living under horrible conditions, and it seems like things are getting better for the average Russian.

Offline jbc1949

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2004, 08:36:27 PM »

. . .

Is Putin perfect? Of course not -- but how can you expect anyone raised under, and in Putin's case, who worked within that system understand how full democracy works. It will take time. Remember the Robber-Barons in out own history? It is a painful process that must occur.

First, I agree with your post.  It makes sense even though Putin's past (KGB wasn't it?) is troubling.  Besides, we in the U.S. with the wonderful gifts that we inherited from the past--along with the problems!--should be the last to point fingers.  Just what have we done with our society and our political system to merit at least the good aspects of the gov't and political system that our Founding Fathers founded?

Our political philosophy is an inheritance based on a bewildering combination of Judeo-Christian beliefs and an agnostic/atheistic Enlightenment philosophy.  As far as I can tell, in these latter days the agnostic side without the enlightenment influence is ascendant!

Jim C.

Offline Linus7

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2004, 02:05:08 PM »
I chose the "I don't know" option.

I don't trust anyone who served in the KGB.

Watch him.
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Offline Frobie

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2004, 05:04:40 PM »
Here's an op-ed that says that denies the election was "rigged" and that Putin is probably best for Russia: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/gvosdev200403150844.asp

Matt

Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2004, 10:17:40 PM »
Linus, you might want to remember that our current President's father was head of the CIA then.

Offline Linus7

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2004, 11:51:01 AM »
Linus, you might want to remember that our current President's father was head of the CIA then.  

Sue me, but I think we are the good guys.

The KGB never were the good guys.

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Offline ania

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2004, 12:41:09 PM »
Here's a joke that's going arround in Russia, though it might not make sence in English (subtle ironic Russian humor, & all that):
A crow (varona), sitting on a tree branch, has a chunk of cheese in her beak.  Up runs a fox (lesa), and asks "Varona, ah Varona, are you voting for Putin?"  Varona doesn't say anything.  Lesa asks again, "Varona, ah Varona, do you want Putin to win?" Again Varona keeps her beak shut.  Again the Lesa asks "Varona, ah Varona, are you going to vote for Putin?"  Finally the Varona answers "Da!" The cheese falls to the ground, which the Lesa quickly chomps down, and then runs away.  The Varona thought about it, thought about, and then said "If I said no, would the outcome have been any different?"  
--sounds better in Russian.
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2004, 01:29:02 PM »
Cute joke, ania.
True story -Greek style. When I visited my mother's family town in Greece in 1971- Karpenissi, a long time ago, I asked an uncle about a new government in Greece. What would he think it would be like? In good old Greek-allegorical fashion my mother's uncle stood up, took his sport jacket off, turned it inside out, and put if back on. Then he said "You see, coat looks different now---same coat".  :)

He had a way with 'words'.

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Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2004, 09:27:38 PM »
I don't think the CIA are necessarily *good* guys at all.  They've done many of the same types of activities as the KGB.  They've had foreign leaders assassinated and many types of things that are not "good".  At least we should be consistent.  If something is wrong for one group of people to do, it should be wrong for anyone to do.

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2004, 09:33:27 PM »
Are you just playing devil's advocate here or do you seriously think the CIA is on the same moral level as the KGB?

Maybe Ann Coulter was right when she said Islamic terrorist don't even hate America like liberals do...

Offline Linus7

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2004, 11:51:03 PM »
Are you just playing devil's advocate here or do you seriously think the CIA is on the same moral level as the KGB?

Maybe Ann Coulter was right when she said Islamic terrorist don't even hate America like liberals do...

Amen, Nektarios.

The KGB worked for a godless, totalitarian system and was used as much for the oppression, persecution, imprisonment, and murder of the people of the Soviet Union as it was to foment evil in the rest of the world.

No one said the CIA is perfect or ever was perfect. But it is an agency in the employ of a representative democracy and works to protect the freedom of the people of the USA.

The difference between the KGB and the CIA is like the difference between night and day.
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Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2004, 11:16:51 AM »
No, I mean exactly what I said.  To assassinate political leaders and some of the other things they've done are not good things to do.  I honestly think that the CIA has about as much blood on their hands as the KGB does.

Offline Linus7

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2004, 11:57:00 AM »
No, I mean exactly what I said.  To assassinate political leaders and some of the other things they've done are not good things to do.  I honestly think that the CIA has about as much blood on their hands as the KGB does.  

Please name some of the political leaders assassinated by the CIA.

Have you read any of Solzhenitsyn's books?

When my wife's grandfather was arrested and sent to Siberia, the KGB was called the NKVD, but it was the same damned gang of thugs.

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Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2004, 12:00:15 PM »
I will admit that they didn't put people in mental institutions and gulags (at least if they have, we haven't found out about it yet), but they funded research of different things they wanted tested to find out if they could be used in their activities on innocent Americans who were not informed of the risks that they were running by consenting to participate in these experiments.  Many people died early deaths because of these experiments.  As many people who participated in these experiments died of the same types of causes, it is pretty clear that what they were exposed to in these experiments may have very well caused their deaths.  Many of these experiments were done in the 50's and 60's, but it wasn't exposed until the late 70's and later.  The CIA knew these experiments were potentially harmful--that's the very reason they wanted them tested on humans, so that they could see whether they would be useful for their activities.  I'm sorry, but this was an evil thing for the CIA to do (and I hold the research facilities that were willing to do these experiments responsible for this also), and I cannot defend it.

To me, if something is wrong, it should be wrong for whoever is doing it.  If the KGB is considered evil for doing something, why should it be defended if the CIA is doing it?

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2004, 12:52:08 PM »
Do you even understand just how many people were killed by the Soviet system?  Freedom comes at a cost, I guess some people just don't understand that....

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2004, 12:56:09 PM »
And a CONTINUING Freedom at a CONTINUING cost.

Demetri
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Offline lellimore

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2004, 03:38:48 PM »
A freedom that comes at the cost of what's basically human experimentation on sometimes unwitting victims is not worthy of the name.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2004, 03:45:11 PM »
A freedom that comes at the cost of what's basically human experimentation on sometimes unwitting victims is not worthy of the name.

No argument there.

Demetri
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Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2004, 06:37:49 PM »
Nektarios, would you feel the way you do if a member of your family was one of those experimented on and may have very well died early because of it?  I doubt it.  Also, many of the human experimentation that was done in the 50's and 60's on behalf of the CIA and even our military was done on minorities and the poor.  I have a feeling that it may have been thought that they were expendable.  For me, it's not much different than the experimentation done by Nazis on Jews in the concentration camp.  Yes, freedom does come at high cost, but the ends don't justify the means.  Again, if something is morally wrong, it's wrong whoever does it--it's not evil for some and defendable for others.  If it's okay to do immoral things to preserve freedom, then can it have been horrible for the Communists to do it to preserve their own government?  This is my point.  It's having a double standard.  

Let's face it, Americans have done things that weren't "good" at all.  Slavery and discrimination against blacks, Indians, Asian-Americans, etc. (including putting Japanese-Americans in "internment" camps during WW2) are just some examples.  We are just as capable of doing wrong things as the Communists were.  We all have a tendency in us to do things that are wrong and evil.

Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2004, 10:44:30 PM »
Actually, the Dept. of Defense also did a lot of human experimentation.  I just tried doing a Google search using CIA + human experimentation and got some very interesting results.  Many of the sites discuss human experimentation sponsored by different government depts., including the CIA.  So, honestly, can we villify the Soviets for some of the things they did when we have some serious skeletons in our own closet?

Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2004, 10:45:56 PM »
By the way, I didn't just find out these things from the internet.  Unfortunately, I'm old enough to remember when these stories first started to be exposed in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.  Believe me, there were stories on the television news and news magazines, the newspapers, and in books.

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2004, 11:19:05 PM »
I don't doutb the validity of these storiest, as I knew of a good number of them long before this was brought up on this board.  But the scale of what the CIA did is much much smaller than the KGB.  America isn't perfect by any means, but to compare America to the SSSR is apples to oranges.

Offline lellimore

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2004, 11:28:56 PM »
I would tend to agree with that.  It's not a flat "good versus bad", but it's not a situation of moral equivalency either.  Never in the history of the world has there been a regime responsible for more deaths than that of the Soviet Union.

Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2004, 01:04:26 AM »
I'm just making the point that we can't excuse our own government's behavior because it's not as "bad" as the Soviets'.  Each human life has incredible value and even one person who died or whose lives were ruined by these experiments is way too many.  As far as moral equivalency, I can't accept that.  It is the same thing as moral relativism.  Is it right to excuse immoral behavior because it's not as bad as what others have done?  In some ways, IMHO, what our government did is worse because it goes totally against what most of our people truly believe in.

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2004, 02:26:47 AM »
I don't know whether you don't know what happens to average citizens in communist countries (I'm related to a few who survived some ordeals in Eastern Europe), you just hate America or a combination of the two....the crimes of the soviet state dwarf those of Hitler by a long shot.  Sure the CIA has its share of problems - but there are no gulags in America, there are no concentration camps here.  

I'm done with this thread.

Offline prodromos

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2004, 06:29:08 AM »
+æ+¦+¦-Ç+++++¡+++¦ ++++-Ã  +Â¥+¦+¦-ä+¼-ü+¦+¦,

Katherine does not hate America, nor has she said anything that would suggest such a thing. Her comments were specifically regarding past activities of the CIA. Though I disagree with her opinion that the CIA has as much blood on its hands as the KGB, I don't believe she has posted anything that warranted your response.

John.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2004, 06:46:02 AM by prodromos »

Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2004, 11:32:51 AM »
Nektarios, I don't hate America.  I love it very much--that's why I have felt the need to say something.  A friend of mine told me one time that I have a very strong sense of justice, and I think that is true.  If I see something wrong being done, especially by someone or something (the government for example) hurting someone weaker than they are, I feel the need to say something.  I can't just sweep it under the rug and pretend it's not there.  It's because I believe so strongly in what America stands for, that I can't stand by and ignore acts and behaviors that trample on those principles that I have been taught to believe in so strongly.  Every country has problems and injustices that cause many wounds.  The only way to heal the wounds is to bring things out in the open, look at them honestly (no matter how much pain they cause), and then deal with them and ask forgiveness for the wrongs done.  Then God's grace can come in and start to heal the wounds.  That is true for individuals and for societies.  

I apologize for offending you and others.  This is my last look at this thread because it is not good for me.  I get very passionate about some things.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2004, 01:02:15 PM »
There are no righteous governments on the Earth and we cannot expect to find justice in this world.  It goes without saying that the KGB were a bunch of murderous sadistic thugs, as were the Gestapo.  The hands of the CIA are not clean either as katherine pointed out.  What about Lumumba in Africa, or the whole United Fruit Company affair in Guatemala(http://www.mayaparadise.com/ufc1e.htm)?  There may not have been gulags in the USA, but in my opinion the Tuskegee Experiment ranks right up there with Mengele (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html).

I don't think its fair to say that someone hates America because they find some fault with some of its agencies or policies.  It reminds me of a person I spoke with this morning who told me that if I criticize the POLICIES of the Israeli government, then that is tantamount to making anti-Semitic statements.  A stretch to say the least.  

I know don't hate my country.  In fact, one of the things I am most grateful for is that as Americans we can openly discuss such matters without fear of retribution.
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2004, 01:30:32 PM »
Well, I still do not trust Putin, and that is what this thread is about.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2004, 02:36:15 PM »
What I posted is still relevant given the direction that the thread has taken.  Getting back to Putin though, I have to agree with you to some degree.  I tend to be leery of ex-Soviets.  I know too many people who lived through the atrocities commited against the Church in the Eastern bloc, and even more people who lived through what the communists did to the Church in Ethiopia.  Still, I have to agree with Tom's first post about Russia taking baby steps and all that.  We can't expect them to turn into a Western democracy over night.

One last thing, isn't Putin a practicing Orthodox Christian?  I know none of you guys can give me a definitive answer here (who can see into a man's soul?), but do you think he is sincere, or is this a shrewd political move to seem like he is ideologically more in sync with the new Russia?
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline lellimore

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2004, 05:56:35 PM »
I think he is, not sure though.  As to the "western democracy", I think it's highly likely that Russia will never become a western democracy, and I don't think that's necessarily a problem.  Different places need their own takes on government.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2004, 10:12:44 PM »
As to the "western democracy", I think it's highly likely that Russia will never become a western democracy, and I don't think that's necessarily a problem.  Different places need their own takes on government.

I quite agree.  What's good for the USA is not necessarily good for everybody else.  A Western style democracy in Russia might be no better a fit than a Western style democracy "in the heart of the Middle East". ;)
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline Linus7

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2004, 11:46:10 AM »
Well, I disagree with you two guys.

I happen to think "western democracy" is the best form of government.

It can work anywhere, given time.

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2004, 12:36:43 PM »
Perhaps a 'democratically elected representative republic' may be just the ticket for those regions as opposed to the democratic parliamentarian chaos used elsewhere in the west.

Demetri
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2004, 03:12:10 PM »
Well, I disagree with you two guys.

I happen to think "western democracy" is the best form of government.

It can work anywhere, given time.

 

I don't know about that, Linus.  That flower may not grow in certain soils.  many have speculated that if Iraq were to be given over to majority rule at the present time, that we would be faced with another Iran (i.e. a Shi'ite theocracy).  I suspect that things would be even worse for the indigenous Christians than it had been under Saddam.  But then again, if that is the will of the majority of the Iraqi people, no foreign power should be able to deny them their choice.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re:Vladimir Putin Probably Reelected
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2004, 08:54:48 PM »
His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus congratulates
President V.V. Putin of Russia on his Re-election

 

2/15 March 2004

“Reigning” Icon of the Mother of God

 

To His Excellency
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin
President of Russia

 

Your Excellency
Deeply-Respected Vladimir Vladimirovich!

With great joy do I congratulate you on your re-election. At the present time, when the Holy Church makes its prostration before the Cross, I pray to the Savior that He strengthen you in bearing the burden of serving Russia to His glory and for the good of our Homeland. At this time, when we are commemorating the “Reigning” Icon of the Mother of God, I prayerfully beseech the Queen of Heaven with the hope that Her intercession will always accompany your efforts.

With love in the Lord,

+Laurus
Metropolitan of Eastern America and New York,
First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara