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Author Topic: Orthodox apparitions  (Read 5733 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2010, 01:44:48 PM »

Well Let me Say, Holy Orthodoxy Never Replaced Christ, as the head of His Church ,Or the Most Holy Spirit In Guiding the Holy Orthodox  Church Of Christ In All Truths also when it came to the Creed confession of faith..... Like the catholic Church has with a Infallable Man Pope...

This reminds me of the Old Testament story about the children of Israel choosing a earthly head  instead of God As head.. So saul became the first king of Israel ,and there troubles never ceased since then, even in this time and place because they chosen a fallable man over God...
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« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2010, 02:18:17 PM »

I mentioned before We don't worship the same Most Holy Trinity....Our confession of faith is not the same as yours. ....We Orthodox worship what we confess in our  Original Creed ....So it isn't the same ...

The creed is the same but the philosophers cannot agree on what is the way the faith must be professed. Some Orthodox philosophers say that Catholics are in error because they use Aristotelean thought to prove their doctrine but Mark of Efez was an avid follower of Aristoteles, then  I hear how Plato's thought as  understood by Aurelius Augustine is heretical but that this Platonic doctrine is the best way of expressing the Orthodox orthopraxis. This is basically a summary of what I have read in these last five years.

The question of the divide in between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is based on philosophical differences not historical or theological. I have read that Orthodoxy preaches that faith is irrational because the Western viewpoint is rational, therefore Orthodoxy is ultimately rational and Roman Catholicism is irrational.  Grin
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« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2010, 02:18:41 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.
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« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2010, 02:59:22 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.
Sounds like you are trying to find reasons to make it look demonic. Jack Chick does the same thing in his crazy tracts:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
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« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2010, 03:37:54 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.
Sounds like you are trying to find reasons to make it look demonic. Jack Chick does the same thing in his crazy tracts:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp

Thanks to Jack Chick I know exactly what to look for in the Anti-Christ.  He will obviously be an evolutionist Freemason Roman Pope (who is secretly a Wiccan) and have the most bad-***ed Saving Throw in town. (His character will not be a Cleric, that will be too obvious.  He will be a half-elf Ranger, possibly a Drow)

Fear his d20s!
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« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2010, 05:04:14 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.
Sounds like you are trying to find reasons to make it look demonic. Jack Chick does the same thing in his crazy tracts:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp

Papist,

to create reasonings for a poor excuse is usually a very convoluted process.

In this case, we *do* have one very clear sign of the deceiver that is straight-forwardly described in the book of Revelations: several sky phenomena. It's not a natural phenomena that is interpreted in a biased way. The book of Revelation clearly talks about supernatural stuff, and here we have supernatural.

Together with that, we have an apparition of a feminine trinity. Here we are not talking about Protestant gibberish that tries to confuse veneration and respect for a holy human being, but we have an outright supernatural manifestation of three "ladies" which is *very* suspicious, at least. The self-flogging thing just adds to strangeness of it. Having these "three ladies" together with Revelation prophesized phenomena must at least make some alarm bells sound.

There is yet another thing. Even in previous public apparitions, we could see Mary's humbleness, her sweet presence always manifest with that typical self-containment proper of the saints. Fatima, on the other hand, is a kind of show off, a strange display of power not much like in the character we saw before.

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« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2010, 06:12:41 PM »

(I was in the middle of a response when a really violent argument erupted between a man and woman outside my house - so will cut this off for now and ask for prayers instead!!!)
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« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2010, 07:57:08 AM »

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2010, 10:53:23 AM »

That was wild - apparently the couple was breaking up - she actually pushed him out of the car and tried to drive off - while he hung onto the door screaming "No, Wendy, Please don't leave meeeee!!!"

(No injuries, thank God!)
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« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2010, 04:38:36 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.
Sounds like you are trying to find reasons to make it look demonic. Jack Chick does the same thing in his crazy tracts:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp

Papist,

to create reasonings for a poor excuse is usually a very convoluted process.

In this case, we *do* have one very clear sign of the deceiver that is straight-forwardly described in the book of Revelations: several sky phenomena. It's not a natural phenomena that is interpreted in a biased way. The book of Revelation clearly talks about supernatural stuff, and here we have supernatural.

Together with that, we have an apparition of a feminine trinity. Here we are not talking about Protestant gibberish that tries to confuse veneration and respect for a holy human being, but we have an outright supernatural manifestation of three "ladies" which is *very* suspicious, at least. The self-flogging thing just adds to strangeness of it. Having these "three ladies" together with Revelation prophesized phenomena must at least make some alarm bells sound.

There is yet another thing. Even in previous public apparitions, we could see Mary's humbleness, her sweet presence always manifest with that typical self-containment proper of the saints. Fatima, on the other hand, is a kind of show off, a strange display of power not much like in the character we saw before.


So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?
And you know very well that the "Trinity" argument is just ridiculously silly. No Catholic believes that Mary is three people in being.
So there you have it. You are creating problems where none exist, in order to justify your position.
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« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2010, 04:38:57 PM »

That was wild - apparently the couple was breaking up - she actually pushed him out of the car and tried to drive off - while he hung onto the door screaming "No, Wendy, Please don't leave meeeee!!!"

(No injuries, thank God!)
Cry
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« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2010, 05:01:41 PM »

So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?
He'll really wig out when Christ returns.  Cheesy
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« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2010, 05:06:32 PM »

So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?

No. Only when it's supernatural like in the apparitions.

Quote
And you know very well that the "Trinity" argument is just ridiculously silly. No Catholic believes that Mary is three people in being.
So there you have it. You are creating problems where none exist, in order to justify your position.

Papist,

why do you think that *every* argument is "about what RCs believe"? I'm not even talking about that.
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« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2010, 05:53:12 PM »

stashko - the Pope does not have to *actively* condemn it. He can simply choose to allow the local Bishop's ruling to stand. 

So when you said "the local Bishop condemned it and the Pope did nothing", you answered your own question. Grin
laugh
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« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2010, 06:15:32 PM »

So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?

No. Only when it's supernatural like in the apparitions.

Quote
And you know very well that the "Trinity" argument is just ridiculously silly. No Catholic believes that Mary is three people in being.
So there you have it. You are creating problems where none exist, in order to justify your position.

Papist,

why do you think that *every* argument is "about what RCs believe"? I'm not even talking about that.

I know what you are talking about, and this time it's just silly.
Just as silly about the "Satanic Relic" that is has been showing up on this forum lately. Some people are always on the look out for another opportunity to demonize (in this pareticular case, literally) the other side.
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« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2010, 06:24:12 PM »

I know what you are talking about, and this time it's just silly.
Just as silly about the "Satanic Relic" that is has been showing up on this forum lately. Some people are always on the look out for another opportunity to demonize (in this pareticular case, literally) the other side.

The difference between the relic and this is that any symbol can have many meanings. Supernatural phenomena, on the other hand, is a fact like any other.

The apparition of "three ladies" doesn't make any evangelical or theological sense. It's never been a Christian symbol, not even in the West. We can't accept it just because the Venerable name of the Virgin Mary is associated with it.

Plus, the fact that this apparition was a show off nothing like known apparitions of Mary and pretty much "out of character" for her is also very suspicious. I know it may sound "offensive" or that may even hurt to put in doubt a much beloved phenomenum that is deemed a heavenly miracle. But it's necessary nevertheless. I'm not too keen of the Orthodox "Miracle of Holy Light" either. It may be true. It may. But there are far too many other reasons for it not to be.
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« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2010, 06:25:57 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin


So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?

No. Only when it's supernatural like in the apparitions.

Quote
And you know very well that the "Trinity" argument is just ridiculously silly. No Catholic believes that Mary is three people in being.
So there you have it. You are creating problems where none exist, in order to justify your position.

Papist,

why do you think that *every* argument is "about what RCs believe"? I'm not even talking about that.

I know what you are talking about, and this time it's just silly.
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« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2010, 06:29:13 PM »


Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Statan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin


So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?

No. Only when it's supernatural like in the apparitions.

Quote
And you know very well that the "Trinity" argument is just ridiculously silly. No Catholic believes that Mary is three people in being.
So there you have it. You are creating problems where none exist, in order to justify your position.

Papist,

why do you think that *every* argument is "about what RCs believe"? I'm not even talking about that.

I know what you are talking about, and this time it's just silly.
surprise surprise.
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« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2010, 08:01:40 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
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« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2010, 08:02:53 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
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« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2010, 08:17:48 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
I found his statement rather ridiculous because the Eastern Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, so it seems odd for him to criticize us for doing the very thing that his Church also does. His statement was also ridiculous because, in real life situations (not on the net), I haven't found it to be the case that Catholics preach Mary more than Christ. I have heard way more sermons from my Pastor on the necessity of the Eucharist to having a close relationship to Jesus Christ than I have sermons on Mary. In fact, the only time I hear anything about Mary preached is on one of the feast days honoring her.
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« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2010, 08:19:12 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
I found his statement rather ridiculous because the Eastern Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, so it seems odd for him to criticize us for doing the very thing that his Church also does. His statement was also ridiculous because, in real life situations (not on the net), I haven't found it to be the case that Catholics preach Mary more than Christ. I have heard way more sermons from my Pastor on the necessity of the Eucharist to having a close relationship to Jesus Christ than I have sermons on Mary. In fact, the only time I hear anything about Mary preached is on one of the feast days honoring her.
Agreed. Similarly, some EOs will say we honor the Pope more than Christ. When was the last time you heard the Pope even mentioned in a sermon? lol
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« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2010, 08:24:29 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
I found his statement rather ridiculous because the Eastern Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, so it seems odd for him to criticize us for doing the very thing that his Church also does. His statement was also ridiculous because, in real life situations (not on the net), I haven't found it to be the case that Catholics preach Mary more than Christ. I have heard way more sermons from my Pastor on the necessity of the Eucharist to having a close relationship to Jesus Christ than I have sermons on Mary. In fact, the only time I hear anything about Mary preached is on one of the feast days honoring her.
Agreed. Similarly, some EOs will say we honor the Pope more than Christ. When was the last time you heard the Pope even mentioned in a sermon? lol
In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.
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« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2010, 08:26:55 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
I found his statement rather ridiculous because the Eastern Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, so it seems odd for him to criticize us for doing the very thing that his Church also does. His statement was also ridiculous because, in real life situations (not on the net), I haven't found it to be the case that Catholics preach Mary more than Christ. I have heard way more sermons from my Pastor on the necessity of the Eucharist to having a close relationship to Jesus Christ than I have sermons on Mary. In fact, the only time I hear anything about Mary preached is on one of the feast days honoring her.
Agreed. Similarly, some EOs will say we honor the Pope more than Christ. When was the last time you heard the Pope even mentioned in a sermon? lol
In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.
Yup.
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« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2010, 08:28:00 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.

A little selective translation there.  It is Our Lady of Sorrows not Pains.  There was no flogging.  The children were wearing cords, itchy and uncomfortable, but not masochistic.

Apparition of Sept 13 1917

"What do you want of me?"

Continue the Rosary, my children. Say it every day that the war may end. In October Our Lord will come, as well as Our Lady of Sorrows and Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. Saint Joseph will appear with the Child Jesus to bless the world.

God is pleased with your sacrifices, but He does not want you to wear the cords to bed. Keep them on during the day.

"I have the petitions of many for your help. Will you assist a little girl who is deaf and dumb?"

She will improve within the year.

"And the conversions that some have asked to have brought about? The cures of the sick ones?"

Some I will cure, and some I will not. In October I will perform a miracle so that all may believe.

With these last words still ringing in their ears, the Lady rose and disappeared in the heavens, as Lucia called to the crowd, "If you wish to see her --- look! Look!"


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« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2010, 08:30:42 PM »

A little selective translation there.  It is Our Lady of Sorrows not Pains.  There was no flogging.  The children were wearing cords, itchy and uncomfortable, but not masochistic.
I swear Fabio Leite is really Jack Chick.
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« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2010, 08:30:51 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
I found his statement rather ridiculous because the Eastern Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, so it seems odd for him to criticize us for doing the very thing that his Church also does. His statement was also ridiculous because, in real life situations (not on the net), I haven't found it to be the case that Catholics preach Mary more than Christ. I have heard way more sermons from my Pastor on the necessity of the Eucharist to having a close relationship to Jesus Christ than I have sermons on Mary. In fact, the only time I hear anything about Mary preached is on one of the feast days honoring her.

What thread are you guys reading?
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« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2010, 08:32:11 PM »

In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.

Are you complaining that your priest doesn't preach on one of the most important aspects of your church, or rather that the Orthodox are more interested in discussing it on a sub-forum set aside for such discussions?  police
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« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2010, 08:33:57 PM »

In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.

Are you complaining that your priest doesn't preach on one of the most important aspects of your church, or rather that the Orthodox are more interested in discussing it on a sub-forum set aside for such discussions?  police
Neither. Just that EOs are more interested in the Papacy than Catholics are.
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« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2010, 08:34:21 PM »

In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.

Are you complaining that your priest doesn't preach on one of the most important aspects of your church, or rather that the Orthodox are more interested in discussing it on a sub-forum set aside for such discussions?  police
I'm pointing out that the caricatures that you guys sometimes like to paint of us are far from the truth.
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« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2010, 08:43:00 PM »

I'm pointing out that the caricatures that you guys sometimes like to paint of us are far from the truth.

I resent that. When I caricature someone I intentionally hit pretty close to the truth, and just exaggerate one or two elements to achieve my rhetorical goals. The best place to hide a lie is between two truths.  Tongue
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« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2010, 09:01:04 PM »

A little selective translation there.  It is Our Lady of Sorrows not Pains.  There was no flogging.  The children were wearing cords, itchy and uncomfortable, but not masochistic.

Apparition of Sept 13 1917

"What do you want of me?"

Continue the Rosary, my children. Say it every day that the war may end. In October Our Lord will come, as well as Our Lady of Sorrows and Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. Saint Joseph will appear with the Child Jesus to bless the world.

God is pleased with your sacrifices, but He does not want you to wear the cords to bed. Keep them on during the day.

"I have the petitions of many for your help. Will you assist a little girl who is deaf and dumb?"

She will improve within the year.

"And the conversions that some have asked to have brought about? The cures of the sick ones?"

Some I will cure, and some I will not. In October I will perform a miracle so that all may believe.

With these last words still ringing in their ears, the Lady rose and disappeared in the heavens, as Lucia called to the crowd, "If you wish to see her --- look! Look!"

In Portuguese her name is "Nossa Senhora das Dores", Our Lady of Pains. "Sorrow" is "tristeza" or better "tristeza profunda" and "Dores" is "Pains". I'm rather confident about my Portuguse since I speak it as my mother tongue for quite some time now. In the occasion, the apparition was speaking Portuguese to the little shepards. Plus, the Latin "Mater Dolorosa" does refer to the Holy Virgin's spiritual pains during her life and her image is that of Mary with the imaculate heart pierced by swords. If anything, it's the English translation as "sorrows" that dissociate the spiritual pains from the almost physical sensation they bring, possibly due to the less latinized Anglo-Saxon culture being less prone to that kind of self-mortification.

Remember that in some Latin cultures people actualy do get crucified on some Catholic feasts. So the translation of "Dor" as "Pain" not only is etymologically more correct, it keeps an ambiguity that is so strong in romance-language cultures that it has not once or twice but regularly translated into actual physical self-aggression.

As for it being a rope just itchy and uncomfortable, here is an extract from the "Associação Devotos de Fátima" (Association of Devouts of Fatima):

Uma corda áspera ao modo de cilício
A rope rough like a cilice


Na aparição de agosto — realizada dias depois do dia 13, pois nesse dia haviam sido raptados pelo administrador de Ourém, que lhes quis arrancar à força o segredo — a Santíssima Virgem recomendou-lhes de novo a prática da mortificação: “Rezai, rezai muito e fazei sacrifícios pelos pecadores, que vão muitas almas para o inferno, por não haver quem se sacrifique e peça por elas” (II Memória, p. 75).

In the apparition of August - that happened days after the 13th, for on that day they were taken by the administrator of Ourém, who wanted to know the secret by force - the Most Holy Virgin recommended again the practice of mortification: "Pray, pray a lot, and make sacrifices for the sinners, for many souls will go to hell because there is no one to sacrifice and pray for them" (II Memória, p.75).

Passados alguns dias, caminhando os videntes com suas ovelhas, Lúcia deparou com um pedaço de corda de uma carroça. Pegando-a, a brincar, atou-a num braço e logo notou que a corda a magoava. Disse então aos primos: “Olhem, isto faz doer; podíamos atá-la à cinta e oferecer a Deus este sacrifício”  (II Memória, p. 75). Todos aceitaram a idéia, e retalhando a corda em três pedaços, passaram a usá-la de dia e de noite. A aspereza da corda, apertada demasiadamente, fazia-os sofrer horrivelmente. Jacinta deixava às vezes cair algumas lágrimas, pelo incômodo que sentia. Lúcia dizia-lhe para tirar a corda, mas ela respondia: “Não. Quero oferecer este sacrifício a Nosso Senhor, em reparação e pela conversão dos pecadores” (II Memória, p. 75).

After some days, while the seers were walking with their sheep, Lúcia saw a piece of rope from a carriage. She picked it and playing with it, tied it to the arm and soon noticed that the rope hurt. She said to her cousins: "Look, this hurts; we could tie it to the waist and offer this sacrifice to God" (II Memória, p.75). They all accepted the idea, and cutting the rope into three pieces, they started using it day and night. The roughness of the rope, excessively tight, made them suffer horribly. Jacinta would weep sometimes because of the incovenience it caused. Lúcia would tell her to take off the rope, but she answered: "No. I want to offer this sacrifice to Our Lord, in reparation and for the conversion of sinners" (II Memória, p.75).

http://www.adf.org.br/home/2010/04/a-missao-da-beata-jacinta-em-salvar-a-alma-dos-pecadores-%E2%80%93-parte-3/
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« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2010, 09:17:32 PM »

I'm pointing out that the caricatures that you guys sometimes like to paint of us are far from the truth.

What caricature is here Wyatt?

I think that you and Papist have simply activated defensive mode and are not even reading what is written even if you are reading the words.

What I am doing is not:

1) asserting that it is for sure a demonic dellusion;

2) making any statement whatsoever about RC doctrine or faith;

What I have done is:

1) Pointed a couple of points that should keep one alert even if it had happened in an Orthodox context, namely: a) a different character in this apparition when compared to others; b) the apparition of successive "modes" of Our Lady and of Our Lord, which not only adds to the strangeness of it, but with the apparition of "three ladies" is even stranger; c) the atmospheric supernatural phenomena that accompanied it are very similar to the ones described in Revelation; d) the self-agression thing.

2) Because of (1) suggested that this apparition in particular should be taken with a tad more skepticism.
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« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2010, 09:20:20 PM »

In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.

Are you complaining that your priest doesn't preach on one of the most important aspects of your church, or rather that the Orthodox are more interested in discussing it on a sub-forum set aside for such discussions?  police
Neither. Just that EOs are more interested in the Papacy than Catholics are.

You can't be serious. Look at the first page where all the threads are in this sub-forum. Most of them have been created by non-Orthodox and they are usually asking the Orthodox opinion on certain things, more often than not, the papacy. Come on now.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2010, 09:23:53 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2010, 09:40:11 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2010, 09:43:40 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes

Seriously? You have to give a smartypants response, don't you? What if I had been someone considering conversion to Roman Catholicism? That would be an incredible turn off at your lack of compassion and flippantness to disregard my opposition of your feast. For shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2010, 09:44:53 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes

Seriously? You have to give a smartypants response, don't you? What if I had been someone considering conversion to Roman Catholicism? That would be an incredible turn off at your lack of compassion and flippantness to disregard my opposition of your feast. For shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
OR... your opposition is just ridiculous.
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« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2010, 09:47:01 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes

Seriously? You have to give a smartypants response, don't you? What if I had been someone considering conversion to Roman Catholicism? That would be an incredible turn off at your lack of compassion and flippantness to disregard my opposition of your feast. For shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
OR... your opposition is just ridiculous.
Wow. Forget it.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2010, 09:50:48 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes

Seriously? You have to give a smartypants response, don't you? What if I had been someone considering conversion to Roman Catholicism? That would be an incredible turn off at your lack of compassion and flippantness to disregard my opposition of your feast. For shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
OR... your opposition is just ridiculous.
Wow. Forget it.

In Christ,
Andrew
Sorry buddy, but for years I have watched the "netodox" attack non-issues in order to justify their embrace of anti-Catholicism. When I see them criticize things like devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, or Divine Mercy Sunday, I just have to shake my head.
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« Reply #85 on: November 02, 2010, 09:55:21 PM »

Isn't that suppose to Pascha ,the feast of feasts when where brought, from death unto life everlasting...Oh death where is thy sting Oh grave where is thy victory...Christ has risen and you are no more.......The Other thing you call divine Mercy is called strange Doctrine....
....


True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #86 on: November 02, 2010, 10:00:10 PM »

Isn't that suppose to Pascha ,the feast of feasts when where brought, from death unto life everlasting...Oh death where is thy sting Oh grave where is thy victory...Christ has risen and you are no more.......The Other thing you call divine Mercy is called strange Doctrine....
....


True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes
Celebrating the Mercy of God during the Octave of Easter is a strange doctrine? wow.
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« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2010, 10:00:37 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Yet what new truth is revealed by such a revelation? On Divine Mercy Sunday we do venerate an image inspired by the one from St. Faustina, but what we are doing is not new. We are praising God for his mercy. I fail to see how that is scandalous.

Isn't that suppose to Pascha ,the feast of feasts when where brought, from death unto life everlasting...Oh death where is thy sting Oh grave where is thy victory...Christ has risen and you are no more.......The Other thing you call divine Mercy is called strange Doctrine....
What strange doctrine was revealed to St. Faustina? I don't know of any.
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« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2010, 11:17:56 PM »

"As for it being a rope just itchy and uncomfortable, here is an extract from the "Associação Devotos de Fátima" (Association of Devouts of Fatima):"

A rope remians a rope and wearing one is not the same as flagellation/flogging.  Eastern monks were also known to wear chains and hairshirts, sleep on rocks, kneel for extended periods, sit on poles: all forms of mortification.

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« Reply #89 on: November 03, 2010, 12:34:03 AM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes

Seriously? You have to give a smartypants response, don't you? What if I had been someone considering conversion to Roman Catholicism? That would be an incredible turn off at your lack of compassion and flippantness to disregard my opposition of your feast. For shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
OR... your opposition is just ridiculous.
Wow. Forget it.

In Christ,
Andrew
Sorry buddy, but for years I have watched the "netodox" attack non-issues in order to justify their embrace of anti-Catholicism. When I see them criticize things like devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, or Divine Mercy Sunday, I just have to shake my head.
Papist and Wyatt,
If one may endeavor to reason here, it is just that the Orthodox, by and large, are cautious about things which come from a spiritual tradition outside our experience. Certain things like the Sacred Heart devotion appear to us very strange. While we may agree with the essence, we have issues with the practice, the spirituality, the symbolism, or the visions connected with such things. We celebrate the mercy of God every service we hold, but do not see something like Divine Mercy Sunday as being ONLY about the mercy of God, but also about a vision and other things outside our experience. You do neither yourself, your faith, or anyone else favors when you make generalizations. I'm not going to say these devotions or certain features of Francis of Assisi represent demonic delusion. I really don't know. But, as this is a discussion forum, I'd expect to be heard on what I have to say about them from my understanding without being brushed off because I don't accept your glib descriptions of these things, but want analysis since they are foreign to my faith's experience and tradition.
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