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Author Topic: Orthodox apparitions  (Read 5541 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wyatt
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« on: October 07, 2010, 08:55:05 PM »

I know that within the [Roman] Catholic Church there have been many instances of apparitions appearing to various [Roman] Catholic Saints. However, do apparitions exist within Eastern Orthodoxy (or Oriental Orthodoxy)? If so, when, where, and to whom did they appear? If they do exist, is it usually the Blessed Virgin Mary who is said to appear, or is it Christ Himself or perhaps a Saint?
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 09:21:10 PM »

Just a few, off the top of my head:

 - The visitation of the Mother of God with St John the Evangelist and Apostle Peter to St Sergius of Radonezh and his disciple Micah.

 - The appearance of the Mother of God to St Dimitri Donskoy. The event is recorded in the icon of the Mother of God Bogolyubskaya.

 - The appearance of the Mother of God at the church at Blachernae - the origin of the feast of the Holy Protection of the Mother of God.

 - The appearance of Christ and the Virgin to the fathers of the First Ecumenical Council, which led to the restoration of St Nicholas of Myra as bishop, after he had been ejected from the council and stripped of his episcopal rank for assaulting Arius.
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 09:22:55 PM »

A recent apparition of the Mother of God happened this past December in Egypt:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24926.0.html
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 10:40:36 PM »

The appearance of the Archangel Michael at Colossae (depicted in the icon currently adorning my avatar).

There are numerous instances of appearance by saints.  A common theme in hagiography seems to be a previously unknown saint appearing to point out his body's resting place.
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2010, 07:30:55 PM »

The Apparition of The Theotokos, St John and others to St. Seraphim of Sarov
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 03:37:04 PM »

Hmmm.......interesting.

I know of some people in Orthodoxy who hold that the "Catholic" apparitions were actually demonic in nature.  This, by the way, is not my opinion, because I am waaay too ignorant to have one in these matters.  So, if, and that's a BIG 'if', that is true, how would "Orthodox" apparitions be any different, if indeed they are?
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 03:43:28 PM »

Hmmm.......interesting.

I know of some people in Orthodoxy who hold that the "Catholic" apparitions were actually demonic in nature.  This, by the way, is not my opinion, because I am waaay too ignorant to have one in these matters.  So, if, and that's a BIG 'if', that is true, how would "Orthodox" apparitions be any different, if indeed they are?

Perhaps by the messages communicated?

The fathers warn strongly against visions and not to trust them, so it's really kind of a "choose your own adventure" deal. They're good and bad, depending on the needs.
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 03:50:17 PM »

You wrote: "Perhaps by the messages communicated?"

Care to elaborate?

And: "They're good and bad, depending on the needs."

So one can sort of pick and choose?  How so?
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 04:05:21 PM »

You wrote: "Perhaps by the messages communicated?"

Care to elaborate?

And: "They're good and bad, depending on the needs."

So one can sort of pick and choose?  How so?

Sorry, I was just being cynical. Hopefully someone else can be more constructive.

As for bad apparitions, the Holy Scripture I believe warns us that the evil one appears as an angel of light. Also, I recall the story of a monk who was visiting seemingly by Christ Himself, but that this actually ended up being a demon, so we must always be very careful with visions.
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2010, 07:31:54 PM »

Hmmm.......interesting.

I know of some people in Orthodoxy who hold that the "Catholic" apparitions were actually demonic in nature.  This, by the way, is not my opinion, because I am waaay too ignorant to have one in these matters.  So, if, and that's a BIG 'if', that is true, how would "Orthodox" apparitions be any different, if indeed they are?

Perhaps by the messages communicated?

The fathers warn strongly against visions and not to trust them, so it's really kind of a "choose your own adventure" deal. They're good and bad, depending on the needs.

What formally approved Catholic apparitions would the Eastern Orthodox Church say delivered a demonic message?
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2010, 08:17:45 PM »

What formally approved Catholic apparitions would the Eastern Orthodox Church say delivered a demonic message?

All you will find are personal opinions. There is no unilateral condemnation of anything that I am aware of. I do know that almost all Orthodox are very uncomfortable with stigmata.

And if someone mentions St. Gregory and stigmata again, I'm officially going to be angry and huffy.
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2010, 08:23:44 PM »

What formally approved Catholic apparitions would the Eastern Orthodox Church say delivered a demonic message?

All you will find are personal opinions. There is no unilateral condemnation of anything that I am aware of. I do know that almost all Orthodox are very uncomfortable with stigmata.
Is there any reason for this skepticism of our apparitions other than an aversion to anything Roman?
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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2010, 08:26:49 PM »

Is there any reason for this skepticism of our apparitions other than an aversion to anything Roman?

I would say that it's more a hesitance to accept anything outside of Orthodoxy. There are different approaches. Some people actively condemn certain things, others have a more passive, "we don't know" attitude. It's the same with Hindu apparitions or anything else.

I have never heard an Orthodox Christian say anything bad about a Roman Catholic in real life. It's all garbage on the internet.

edit: One glaring difference in our approaches seems to be the turn the Roman Catholic visions took after the great schism. The usual examples are Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Ávila. They are much more sentimental in nature, especially with Teresa's being "enraptured" and "in ecstasy" and such. Some of it seems very foreign to our spirituality.
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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2010, 08:33:19 PM »

The appearance of the Mother of God at the church at Blachernae - the origin of the feast of the Holy Protection of the Mother of God.

I'm not sure that was an "appearance" as much as a "vision" of St. Andrew the Fool.
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2010, 09:30:02 PM »

What Holy Orthodoxy say's about the catholic ones, A very Good Read,It Convinced Me.... Grin
The Marian Apparitions: Divine Intervention or Delusion? read all about it here link> .... http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2010, 12:49:37 AM »

To be fair, Wyatt, the RC does not make any judgment about miracles outside the RC church, so we shouldn't expect the OC to do differently.
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2010, 01:58:20 AM »

To be fair, Wyatt, the RC does not make any judgment about miracles outside the RC church, so we shouldn't expect the OC to do differently.

Why Shouldn't Holy Orthodoxy Not examine The Catholic Ones Throughly ,If all this Talk of Unity That suppose to Happen ....What if Some Of them, if not all of the are satanic and the catholic Church is being Guided By them and Not recognizing them as such ,but accepting them as authentic ones ....Orthodoxy and i we would like to know about it before any unity would Happen or not...

The Medjugorije One was Going on for twenty five yrs .maybe more , It was Condemned by a Catholic Bishop in Bosnija ,Maybe a few Others ,But the pope Hasn't Condemed It ,Or i Haven't Heard or read About it that he did....I guess as Long it's a great money Maker For them ,They will milk it as Long as they Can..... Grin
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2010, 05:57:46 AM »

But the pope Hasn't Condemed It ,Or i Haven't Heard or read About it that he did....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1052230/Pope-finally-launches-crackdown-worlds-largest-illicit-Catholic-shrine-suspends-dubious-priest.html
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2010, 09:52:32 AM »

To be fair, Wyatt, the RC does not make any judgment about miracles outside the RC church, so we shouldn't expect the OC to do differently.
No, but if I heard that the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared at an Eastern Orthodox Church I wouldn't dismiss it outright just because it happened at an Eastern Orthodox Church and not at a Catholic Church. Maybe I am flawed in my thinking but that is the way I see it. I remember reading on the internet about the Virgin Mary Appearing above an Oriental Orthodox Church and I even looked at the pictures and I do not think it is a farce just because it happened at an Oriental Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2010, 10:40:22 AM »

Right, as an individual you may make your own judgement call on that.  But the RC has not pronounced on it AFAIK.

Ignoring stashko who basically answered his own question without realizing it. Cheesy
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2010, 12:54:31 PM »

Right, as an individual you may make your own judgement call on that.  But the RC has not pronounced on it AFAIK.

Ignoring stashko who basically answered his own question without realizing it. Cheesy

Oh !did I answer My Own Question... The struggle In Bosnija at the Medjugorje Site was between the Franciscans and the Cardinal ,In who would control the site and Purse String ,Since He couldn't get his Mitts On the  Purse he condemned it as a False Apparition site......How would Of He Precieved It If He Controled the Site and the money flowing in.....

If the Pope Did Condemn it, He didn't do it loud enough because the site is Active as ever....

Iv'e read articles that the visionaries aren't  living very pious lifes......
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2010, 01:22:00 PM »

Stigmata may scare you but when I see an icon, a holy image with human-like bleeding wounds I do not know what to think.
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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2010, 01:35:48 PM »

Right, as an individual you may make your own judgement call on that.  But the RC has not pronounced on it AFAIK.

Ignoring stashko who basically answered his own question without realizing it. Cheesy

Oh !did I answer My Own Question... The struggle In Bosnija at the Medjugorje Site was between the Franciscans and the Cardinal ,In who would control the site and Purse String ,Since He couldn't get his Mitts On the  Purse he condemned it as a False Apparition site......How would Of He Precieved It If He Controlled the Site and the money flowing in.....

If the Pope Did Condemn it, He didn't do it loud enough because the site is Active as ever....

Iv'e read articles that the visionaries aren't  living very pious lifes......
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2010, 08:32:13 PM »

stashko - the Pope does not have to *actively* condemn it. He can simply choose to allow the local Bishop's ruling to stand. 

So when you said "the local Bishop condemned it and the Pope did nothing", you answered your own question. Grin
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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2010, 09:08:48 PM »

stashko - the Pope does not have to *actively* condemn it. He can simply choose to allow the local Bishop's ruling to stand.  

So when you said "the local Bishop condemned it and the Pope did nothing", you answered your own question. Grin


Since the pope is Your supreme Ruler, Leader ....Wouldn't Your Popes conndemation spoken Loudly and being presistant carry more weight ,than a Meir Cardinals .....So the deception  Continnues ....Interesting.... Grin This is  why Holy Orthodoxy Has to do a through investigation on all Catholic Apparitions ..... Grin
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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2010, 11:18:55 PM »

stashko - the Pope does not have to *actively* condemn it. He can simply choose to allow the local Bishop's ruling to stand.  

So when you said "the local Bishop condemned it and the Pope did nothing", you answered your own question. Grin


Since the pope is Your supreme Ruler, Leader ....Wouldn't Your Popes conndemation spoken Loudly and being presistant carry more weight ,than a Meir Cardinals .....So the deception  Continnues ....Interesting.... Grin This is  why Holy Orthodoxy Has to do a through investigation on all Catholic Apparitions ..... Grin
The Pope wouldn't need to intervene if the Bishop handled it by making the right decision. The only reason the Pope would intervene would be if the Bishop was in error. The fact that the Pope has remained silent indicates the Bishop must have acted prudently.
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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2010, 01:17:03 AM »

I don't get it, stashko - when the Pope acts authoritatively, you call him a tyrant, yet when he DOESN'T you get all upset and say he should!

Hmm ... if I didn't know better I'd think you didn't approve of the Papacy at all. Grin
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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2010, 02:01:07 AM »

How about Garabandal? (Am I spelling it right?)  I haven't heard much about those particular visions, but I am wondering if most Catholics believe in them, or if the Catholic Church has indicated one way or another if they are authentic?
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« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2010, 03:17:34 PM »

No, Garabandal was not approved.
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« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2010, 03:19:44 PM »

FWIW, not sure if the OC does the same, but the RC doesn't require anyone to believe even approved visions like Lourdes or Fatima - just says they're OK to accept if you want to.
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« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2010, 08:13:36 PM »

FWIW, not sure if the OC does the same, but the RC doesn't require anyone to believe even approved visions like Lourdes or Fatima - just says they're OK to accept if you want to.
This is a very good point. Private revelations (such as apparitions) are nowhere near on par with public revelation such as Holy Scripture or Sacred Tradition.
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« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2010, 10:25:23 PM »

FWIW, not sure if the OC does the same, but the RC doesn't require anyone to believe even approved visions like Lourdes or Fatima - just says they're OK to accept if you want to.

When I was Roman Catholic, I did not accept any of the apparitions and I was considered less than Catholic. I think that claim could be better made if the RCC did not attach feast days to them. Namely, I am thinking of "Divine Mercy Sunday."

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« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2010, 11:19:30 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
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« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2010, 11:46:25 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.

Why Not just accept Pascha Christs suffering ,Crucifixion,Death ,and Resurrection, as the Feast of Feasts as  the Greatest Mercy...Why would a Questionable apparition of Divine Mercy ,try or has for the catholics surplanted Pascha as the Greatest Mercy ,When Christ from Scripture tell us Greater Love Has No Man Than to lay down his life for his fellow man,,,Just believe how great Christs love is ,because he layed his life down for all of mankind..Nothing is greater than that ...Catholics are decieved when they chase after these questionable apparitions...un- known to our Holy Fathers Faith once delivered...
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« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2010, 11:54:07 PM »

Not your concern, stashko.  You're not RC so you don't have to worry about it.
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« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2010, 12:11:04 AM »

Not your concern, stashko.  You're not RC so you don't have to worry about it.

Ok! Keep Your Apparitions..But i say No unity ......we have nothing in common Our Lord and Saviour Jesus and The Holy Theotokos and yours of Apparitions, Are not the same.... Grin
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« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2010, 12:35:53 AM »


What formally approved Catholic apparitions would the Eastern Orthodox Church say delivered a demonic message?

The "consecration" of Russia to the "Immaculate Heart" of Mary, and the promise of the "conversion of Russia" make no sense from an Orthodox point of view. Russia has been Christian for a thousand years. The RCC has no business "consecrating" places that don't want/need to be consecrated, especially if they fall outside Rome's "sphere of influence," for lack of a better term.

If anything, such messages and actions are hindrances to re-union.
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« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2010, 12:46:55 AM »

Since He couldn't get his Mitts On the  Purse he condemned it as a False Apparition site......

That is an opinion (yours), not a fact.
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« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2010, 11:17:23 AM »


What formally approved Catholic apparitions would the Eastern Orthodox Church say delivered a demonic message?

The "consecration" of Russia to the "Immaculate Heart" of Mary, and the promise of the "conversion of Russia" make no sense from an Orthodox point of view. Russia has been Christian for a thousand years. The RCC has no business "consecrating" places that don't want/need to be consecrated, especially if they fall outside Rome's "sphere of influence," for lack of a better term.

If anything, such messages and actions are hindrances to re-union.
I am not well versed in apparitions, so forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't the "conversion of Russia" a message of Fatima shortly after Russia fell to Communism and thus, at least officially, became an atheistic regime?
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« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2010, 11:27:56 AM »

Yes, and Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco (the three little children who saw the visions) were repeatedly threatened by the atheistic government to renounce what they claimed the "Lady" had said.

The messages were very much anti-atheist, NOT anti-Orthodox.
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« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2010, 12:19:07 PM »

Yes, and Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco (the three little children who saw the visions) were repeatedly threatened by the atheistic government to renounce what they claimed the "Lady" had said.

The messages were very much anti-atheist, NOT anti-Orthodox.

It course it was anti Holy Orthodoxy .....Didn't this Lady Of Yours know How ,Greatly the Blessed Theotokos was loved And Honored In Russia/Ukrainia and all the Orthodox Countries....Your lady versus Our Blessed Theotokos ,Your's definitely is the Fake one....We believe in the Scriptual Holy Blessed Theotokos who points to Christ and says do what he tells you....
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« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2010, 12:24:37 PM »

Yes, and Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco (the three little children who saw the visions) were repeatedly threatened by the atheistic government to renounce what they claimed the "Lady" had said.

The messages were very much anti-atheist, NOT anti-Orthodox.

It course it was anti Holy Orthodoxy .....Didn't this Lady Of Yours know How ,Greatly the Blessed Theotokos was loved And Honored In Russia/Ukrainia and all the Orthodox Countries....Your lady versus Our Blessed Theotokos ,Your's definitely is the Fake one....We believe in the Scriptual Holy Blessed Theotokos who points to Christ and says do what he tells you....
Yes and Communism did not happen.
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« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2010, 12:42:40 PM »

Yes, and Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco (the three little children who saw the visions) were repeatedly threatened by the atheistic government to renounce what they claimed the "Lady" had said.

The messages were very much anti-atheist, NOT anti-Orthodox.

It course it was anti Holy Orthodoxy .....Didn't this Lady Of Yours know How ,Greatly the Blessed Theotokos was loved And Honored In Russia/Ukrainia and all the Orthodox Countries....Your lady versus Our Blessed Theotokos ,Your's definitely is the Fake one....We believe in the Scriptual Holy Blessed Theotokos who points to Christ and says do what he tells you....

Interestingly enough, the Blessed Virgin Mary was correct because Communism did fall in Russia and Russian Orthodoxy is fine now. So, apparently Our Lady of Fatima doesn't have a problem with Eastern Orthodoxy. Perhaps you are wrong in your assessment that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox venerate different ladies. Our Lady was not anti-Eastern Orthodox, but you are certainly very much anti-Catholic for stating rude polemical things such as that we do not venerate the same Virgin Mary. Do you believe we worship a different God than you do too?
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« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2010, 01:16:39 PM »

I mentioned before We don't worship the same Most Holy Trinity....Our confession of faith is not the same as yours. ....We Orthodox worship what we confess in our  Original Creed ....So it isn't the same ...



Yes, and Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco (the three little children who saw the visions) were repeatedly threatened by the atheistic government to renounce what they claimed the "Lady" had said.

The messages were very much anti-atheist, NOT anti-Orthodox.

It course it was anti Holy Orthodoxy .....Didn't this Lady Of Yours know How ,Greatly the Blessed Theotokos was loved And Honored In Russia/Ukrainia and all the Orthodox Countries....Your lady versus Our Blessed Theotokos ,Your's definitely is the Fake one....We believe in the Scriptual Holy Blessed Theotokos who points to Christ and says do what he tells you....

Interestingly enough, the Blessed Virgin Mary was correct because Communism did fall in Russia and Russian Orthodoxy is fine now. So, apparently Our Lady of Fatima doesn't have a problem with Eastern Orthodoxy. Perhaps you are wrong in your assessment that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox venerate different ladies. Our Lady was not anti-Eastern Orthodox, but you are certainly very much anti-Catholic for stating rude polemical things such as that we do not venerate the same Virgin Mary. Do you believe we worship a different God than you do too?
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« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2010, 01:18:15 PM »

I mentioned before We don't worship the same Most holy Trinity....Our confession of faith is not the same as yours. ....We Orthodox worship what we confess in our  Original Creed ....So it isn't the same ...
So having the proper understanding of God is necessary for worshiping God? If that is the case then none of us worship God because none of us can fully grasp Him with our finite minds.
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« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2010, 01:44:48 PM »

Well Let me Say, Holy Orthodoxy Never Replaced Christ, as the head of His Church ,Or the Most Holy Spirit In Guiding the Holy Orthodox  Church Of Christ In All Truths also when it came to the Creed confession of faith..... Like the catholic Church has with a Infallable Man Pope...

This reminds me of the Old Testament story about the children of Israel choosing a earthly head  instead of God As head.. So saul became the first king of Israel ,and there troubles never ceased since then, even in this time and place because they chosen a fallable man over God...
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« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2010, 02:18:17 PM »

I mentioned before We don't worship the same Most Holy Trinity....Our confession of faith is not the same as yours. ....We Orthodox worship what we confess in our  Original Creed ....So it isn't the same ...

The creed is the same but the philosophers cannot agree on what is the way the faith must be professed. Some Orthodox philosophers say that Catholics are in error because they use Aristotelean thought to prove their doctrine but Mark of Efez was an avid follower of Aristoteles, then  I hear how Plato's thought as  understood by Aurelius Augustine is heretical but that this Platonic doctrine is the best way of expressing the Orthodox orthopraxis. This is basically a summary of what I have read in these last five years.

The question of the divide in between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is based on philosophical differences not historical or theological. I have read that Orthodoxy preaches that faith is irrational because the Western viewpoint is rational, therefore Orthodoxy is ultimately rational and Roman Catholicism is irrational.  Grin
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« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2010, 02:18:41 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.
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« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2010, 02:59:22 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.
Sounds like you are trying to find reasons to make it look demonic. Jack Chick does the same thing in his crazy tracts:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
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« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2010, 03:37:54 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.
Sounds like you are trying to find reasons to make it look demonic. Jack Chick does the same thing in his crazy tracts:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp

Thanks to Jack Chick I know exactly what to look for in the Anti-Christ.  He will obviously be an evolutionist Freemason Roman Pope (who is secretly a Wiccan) and have the most bad-***ed Saving Throw in town. (His character will not be a Cleric, that will be too obvious.  He will be a half-elf Ranger, possibly a Drow)

Fear his d20s!
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« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2010, 05:04:14 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.
Sounds like you are trying to find reasons to make it look demonic. Jack Chick does the same thing in his crazy tracts:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp

Papist,

to create reasonings for a poor excuse is usually a very convoluted process.

In this case, we *do* have one very clear sign of the deceiver that is straight-forwardly described in the book of Revelations: several sky phenomena. It's not a natural phenomena that is interpreted in a biased way. The book of Revelation clearly talks about supernatural stuff, and here we have supernatural.

Together with that, we have an apparition of a feminine trinity. Here we are not talking about Protestant gibberish that tries to confuse veneration and respect for a holy human being, but we have an outright supernatural manifestation of three "ladies" which is *very* suspicious, at least. The self-flogging thing just adds to strangeness of it. Having these "three ladies" together with Revelation prophesized phenomena must at least make some alarm bells sound.

There is yet another thing. Even in previous public apparitions, we could see Mary's humbleness, her sweet presence always manifest with that typical self-containment proper of the saints. Fatima, on the other hand, is a kind of show off, a strange display of power not much like in the character we saw before.

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« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2010, 06:12:41 PM »

(I was in the middle of a response when a really violent argument erupted between a man and woman outside my house - so will cut this off for now and ask for prayers instead!!!)
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« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2010, 07:57:08 AM »

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2010, 10:53:23 AM »

That was wild - apparently the couple was breaking up - she actually pushed him out of the car and tried to drive off - while he hung onto the door screaming "No, Wendy, Please don't leave meeeee!!!"

(No injuries, thank God!)
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« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2010, 04:38:36 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.
Sounds like you are trying to find reasons to make it look demonic. Jack Chick does the same thing in his crazy tracts:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp

Papist,

to create reasonings for a poor excuse is usually a very convoluted process.

In this case, we *do* have one very clear sign of the deceiver that is straight-forwardly described in the book of Revelations: several sky phenomena. It's not a natural phenomena that is interpreted in a biased way. The book of Revelation clearly talks about supernatural stuff, and here we have supernatural.

Together with that, we have an apparition of a feminine trinity. Here we are not talking about Protestant gibberish that tries to confuse veneration and respect for a holy human being, but we have an outright supernatural manifestation of three "ladies" which is *very* suspicious, at least. The self-flogging thing just adds to strangeness of it. Having these "three ladies" together with Revelation prophesized phenomena must at least make some alarm bells sound.

There is yet another thing. Even in previous public apparitions, we could see Mary's humbleness, her sweet presence always manifest with that typical self-containment proper of the saints. Fatima, on the other hand, is a kind of show off, a strange display of power not much like in the character we saw before.


So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?
And you know very well that the "Trinity" argument is just ridiculously silly. No Catholic believes that Mary is three people in being.
So there you have it. You are creating problems where none exist, in order to justify your position.
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« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2010, 04:38:57 PM »

That was wild - apparently the couple was breaking up - she actually pushed him out of the car and tried to drive off - while he hung onto the door screaming "No, Wendy, Please don't leave meeeee!!!"

(No injuries, thank God!)
Cry
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« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2010, 05:01:41 PM »

So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?
He'll really wig out when Christ returns.  Cheesy
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« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2010, 05:06:32 PM »

So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?

No. Only when it's supernatural like in the apparitions.

Quote
And you know very well that the "Trinity" argument is just ridiculously silly. No Catholic believes that Mary is three people in being.
So there you have it. You are creating problems where none exist, in order to justify your position.

Papist,

why do you think that *every* argument is "about what RCs believe"? I'm not even talking about that.
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« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2010, 05:53:12 PM »

stashko - the Pope does not have to *actively* condemn it. He can simply choose to allow the local Bishop's ruling to stand. 

So when you said "the local Bishop condemned it and the Pope did nothing", you answered your own question. Grin
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« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2010, 06:15:32 PM »

So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?

No. Only when it's supernatural like in the apparitions.

Quote
And you know very well that the "Trinity" argument is just ridiculously silly. No Catholic believes that Mary is three people in being.
So there you have it. You are creating problems where none exist, in order to justify your position.

Papist,

why do you think that *every* argument is "about what RCs believe"? I'm not even talking about that.

I know what you are talking about, and this time it's just silly.
Just as silly about the "Satanic Relic" that is has been showing up on this forum lately. Some people are always on the look out for another opportunity to demonize (in this pareticular case, literally) the other side.
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« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2010, 06:24:12 PM »

I know what you are talking about, and this time it's just silly.
Just as silly about the "Satanic Relic" that is has been showing up on this forum lately. Some people are always on the look out for another opportunity to demonize (in this pareticular case, literally) the other side.

The difference between the relic and this is that any symbol can have many meanings. Supernatural phenomena, on the other hand, is a fact like any other.

The apparition of "three ladies" doesn't make any evangelical or theological sense. It's never been a Christian symbol, not even in the West. We can't accept it just because the Venerable name of the Virgin Mary is associated with it.

Plus, the fact that this apparition was a show off nothing like known apparitions of Mary and pretty much "out of character" for her is also very suspicious. I know it may sound "offensive" or that may even hurt to put in doubt a much beloved phenomenum that is deemed a heavenly miracle. But it's necessary nevertheless. I'm not too keen of the Orthodox "Miracle of Holy Light" either. It may be true. It may. But there are far too many other reasons for it not to be.
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« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2010, 06:25:57 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin


So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?

No. Only when it's supernatural like in the apparitions.

Quote
And you know very well that the "Trinity" argument is just ridiculously silly. No Catholic believes that Mary is three people in being.
So there you have it. You are creating problems where none exist, in order to justify your position.

Papist,

why do you think that *every* argument is "about what RCs believe"? I'm not even talking about that.

I know what you are talking about, and this time it's just silly.
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« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2010, 06:29:13 PM »


Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Statan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin


So everytime something appears in the sky, it's a demonic apparation?

No. Only when it's supernatural like in the apparitions.

Quote
And you know very well that the "Trinity" argument is just ridiculously silly. No Catholic believes that Mary is three people in being.
So there you have it. You are creating problems where none exist, in order to justify your position.

Papist,

why do you think that *every* argument is "about what RCs believe"? I'm not even talking about that.

I know what you are talking about, and this time it's just silly.
surprise surprise.
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« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2010, 08:01:40 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
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« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2010, 08:02:53 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
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« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2010, 08:17:48 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
I found his statement rather ridiculous because the Eastern Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, so it seems odd for him to criticize us for doing the very thing that his Church also does. His statement was also ridiculous because, in real life situations (not on the net), I haven't found it to be the case that Catholics preach Mary more than Christ. I have heard way more sermons from my Pastor on the necessity of the Eucharist to having a close relationship to Jesus Christ than I have sermons on Mary. In fact, the only time I hear anything about Mary preached is on one of the feast days honoring her.
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« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2010, 08:19:12 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
I found his statement rather ridiculous because the Eastern Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, so it seems odd for him to criticize us for doing the very thing that his Church also does. His statement was also ridiculous because, in real life situations (not on the net), I haven't found it to be the case that Catholics preach Mary more than Christ. I have heard way more sermons from my Pastor on the necessity of the Eucharist to having a close relationship to Jesus Christ than I have sermons on Mary. In fact, the only time I hear anything about Mary preached is on one of the feast days honoring her.
Agreed. Similarly, some EOs will say we honor the Pope more than Christ. When was the last time you heard the Pope even mentioned in a sermon? lol
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« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2010, 08:24:29 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
I found his statement rather ridiculous because the Eastern Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, so it seems odd for him to criticize us for doing the very thing that his Church also does. His statement was also ridiculous because, in real life situations (not on the net), I haven't found it to be the case that Catholics preach Mary more than Christ. I have heard way more sermons from my Pastor on the necessity of the Eucharist to having a close relationship to Jesus Christ than I have sermons on Mary. In fact, the only time I hear anything about Mary preached is on one of the feast days honoring her.
Agreed. Similarly, some EOs will say we honor the Pope more than Christ. When was the last time you heard the Pope even mentioned in a sermon? lol
In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.
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« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2010, 08:26:55 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
I found his statement rather ridiculous because the Eastern Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, so it seems odd for him to criticize us for doing the very thing that his Church also does. His statement was also ridiculous because, in real life situations (not on the net), I haven't found it to be the case that Catholics preach Mary more than Christ. I have heard way more sermons from my Pastor on the necessity of the Eucharist to having a close relationship to Jesus Christ than I have sermons on Mary. In fact, the only time I hear anything about Mary preached is on one of the feast days honoring her.
Agreed. Similarly, some EOs will say we honor the Pope more than Christ. When was the last time you heard the Pope even mentioned in a sermon? lol
In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.
Yup.
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« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2010, 08:28:00 PM »

A concerning issue about the apparition of Fatima that does point to a demonic intervention is the last apparition when the "Miracle of the Sun" happened. There was also another less commented apparition on that day, that had been announced on September 13th, 1917.

Our Lady would have asked them to pray more with the rosary and to use the self-flogging whip only during the day(!!!) and said, in Portuguese:
"Em Outubro, virá também Nosso Senhor, Nossa Senhora das Dores e do Carmo, São José com o Menino Jesus, para abençoarem o Mundo."

"In October, Our Lord, Our Lady of Pains, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and Saint Joseph with the Boy Jesus will come to bless the world".

And indeed, on the day of the "Miracle of the Sun" these "beings" were also seen.

Now, here is the concern. First, the support of self-flogging. That's always been a controversial practice at best in the RC church, and, to my knowledge, never approved in the Orthodox church. Second, and most importantly, the apparition of the "Ladies".  It's always been understood that the Holy Virgin's titles are only that: titles. Even when she appears dressed as in an icon, she comes humbly and majestically as "just" the Mother of God. The apparition of such "characters", which were first "Our Lady of the Rosary", then "Our Lady of the Pains" and last "Our Lady of Mount Carmel" spells too much of a female trinity, which would be a typically quasi-pagan demonic mockery. Plus, all the atmospheric "miracles" resemble too much the phenomena mentioned in the book of Revelation as demonic signs to deceive "even the just".

I'm not saying that it *is* a demonic phenomena. But it sure looks like it.

A little selective translation there.  It is Our Lady of Sorrows not Pains.  There was no flogging.  The children were wearing cords, itchy and uncomfortable, but not masochistic.

Apparition of Sept 13 1917

"What do you want of me?"

Continue the Rosary, my children. Say it every day that the war may end. In October Our Lord will come, as well as Our Lady of Sorrows and Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. Saint Joseph will appear with the Child Jesus to bless the world.

God is pleased with your sacrifices, but He does not want you to wear the cords to bed. Keep them on during the day.

"I have the petitions of many for your help. Will you assist a little girl who is deaf and dumb?"

She will improve within the year.

"And the conversions that some have asked to have brought about? The cures of the sick ones?"

Some I will cure, and some I will not. In October I will perform a miracle so that all may believe.

With these last words still ringing in their ears, the Lady rose and disappeared in the heavens, as Lucia called to the crowd, "If you wish to see her --- look! Look!"


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« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2010, 08:30:42 PM »

A little selective translation there.  It is Our Lady of Sorrows not Pains.  There was no flogging.  The children were wearing cords, itchy and uncomfortable, but not masochistic.
I swear Fabio Leite is really Jack Chick.
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« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2010, 08:30:51 PM »

Have to disagree he Made Perfect sense.........Satan is Out to Destroy, and he will appear to catholics in what ever form they lean towards and since Mary is preached more than Christ ,What better form to decieve than that of Mary....... Grin
How Protestant of you.
It's not that he is Protestant. It's that he will disagree with whoever happens to be opposing Catholic. He is not so much Eastern Orthodox as he is anti-Catholic.
I found his statement rather ridiculous because the Eastern Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, so it seems odd for him to criticize us for doing the very thing that his Church also does. His statement was also ridiculous because, in real life situations (not on the net), I haven't found it to be the case that Catholics preach Mary more than Christ. I have heard way more sermons from my Pastor on the necessity of the Eucharist to having a close relationship to Jesus Christ than I have sermons on Mary. In fact, the only time I hear anything about Mary preached is on one of the feast days honoring her.

What thread are you guys reading?
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« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2010, 08:32:11 PM »

In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.

Are you complaining that your priest doesn't preach on one of the most important aspects of your church, or rather that the Orthodox are more interested in discussing it on a sub-forum set aside for such discussions?  police
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« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2010, 08:33:57 PM »

In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.

Are you complaining that your priest doesn't preach on one of the most important aspects of your church, or rather that the Orthodox are more interested in discussing it on a sub-forum set aside for such discussions?  police
Neither. Just that EOs are more interested in the Papacy than Catholics are.
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« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2010, 08:34:21 PM »

In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.

Are you complaining that your priest doesn't preach on one of the most important aspects of your church, or rather that the Orthodox are more interested in discussing it on a sub-forum set aside for such discussions?  police
I'm pointing out that the caricatures that you guys sometimes like to paint of us are far from the truth.
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« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2010, 08:43:00 PM »

I'm pointing out that the caricatures that you guys sometimes like to paint of us are far from the truth.

I resent that. When I caricature someone I intentionally hit pretty close to the truth, and just exaggerate one or two elements to achieve my rhetorical goals. The best place to hide a lie is between two truths.  Tongue
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« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2010, 09:01:04 PM »

A little selective translation there.  It is Our Lady of Sorrows not Pains.  There was no flogging.  The children were wearing cords, itchy and uncomfortable, but not masochistic.

Apparition of Sept 13 1917

"What do you want of me?"

Continue the Rosary, my children. Say it every day that the war may end. In October Our Lord will come, as well as Our Lady of Sorrows and Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. Saint Joseph will appear with the Child Jesus to bless the world.

God is pleased with your sacrifices, but He does not want you to wear the cords to bed. Keep them on during the day.

"I have the petitions of many for your help. Will you assist a little girl who is deaf and dumb?"

She will improve within the year.

"And the conversions that some have asked to have brought about? The cures of the sick ones?"

Some I will cure, and some I will not. In October I will perform a miracle so that all may believe.

With these last words still ringing in their ears, the Lady rose and disappeared in the heavens, as Lucia called to the crowd, "If you wish to see her --- look! Look!"

In Portuguese her name is "Nossa Senhora das Dores", Our Lady of Pains. "Sorrow" is "tristeza" or better "tristeza profunda" and "Dores" is "Pains". I'm rather confident about my Portuguse since I speak it as my mother tongue for quite some time now. In the occasion, the apparition was speaking Portuguese to the little shepards. Plus, the Latin "Mater Dolorosa" does refer to the Holy Virgin's spiritual pains during her life and her image is that of Mary with the imaculate heart pierced by swords. If anything, it's the English translation as "sorrows" that dissociate the spiritual pains from the almost physical sensation they bring, possibly due to the less latinized Anglo-Saxon culture being less prone to that kind of self-mortification.

Remember that in some Latin cultures people actualy do get crucified on some Catholic feasts. So the translation of "Dor" as "Pain" not only is etymologically more correct, it keeps an ambiguity that is so strong in romance-language cultures that it has not once or twice but regularly translated into actual physical self-aggression.

As for it being a rope just itchy and uncomfortable, here is an extract from the "Associação Devotos de Fátima" (Association of Devouts of Fatima):

Uma corda áspera ao modo de cilício
A rope rough like a cilice


Na aparição de agosto — realizada dias depois do dia 13, pois nesse dia haviam sido raptados pelo administrador de Ourém, que lhes quis arrancar à força o segredo — a Santíssima Virgem recomendou-lhes de novo a prática da mortificação: “Rezai, rezai muito e fazei sacrifícios pelos pecadores, que vão muitas almas para o inferno, por não haver quem se sacrifique e peça por elas” (II Memória, p. 75).

In the apparition of August - that happened days after the 13th, for on that day they were taken by the administrator of Ourém, who wanted to know the secret by force - the Most Holy Virgin recommended again the practice of mortification: "Pray, pray a lot, and make sacrifices for the sinners, for many souls will go to hell because there is no one to sacrifice and pray for them" (II Memória, p.75).

Passados alguns dias, caminhando os videntes com suas ovelhas, Lúcia deparou com um pedaço de corda de uma carroça. Pegando-a, a brincar, atou-a num braço e logo notou que a corda a magoava. Disse então aos primos: “Olhem, isto faz doer; podíamos atá-la à cinta e oferecer a Deus este sacrifício”  (II Memória, p. 75). Todos aceitaram a idéia, e retalhando a corda em três pedaços, passaram a usá-la de dia e de noite. A aspereza da corda, apertada demasiadamente, fazia-os sofrer horrivelmente. Jacinta deixava às vezes cair algumas lágrimas, pelo incômodo que sentia. Lúcia dizia-lhe para tirar a corda, mas ela respondia: “Não. Quero oferecer este sacrifício a Nosso Senhor, em reparação e pela conversão dos pecadores” (II Memória, p. 75).

After some days, while the seers were walking with their sheep, Lúcia saw a piece of rope from a carriage. She picked it and playing with it, tied it to the arm and soon noticed that the rope hurt. She said to her cousins: "Look, this hurts; we could tie it to the waist and offer this sacrifice to God" (II Memória, p.75). They all accepted the idea, and cutting the rope into three pieces, they started using it day and night. The roughness of the rope, excessively tight, made them suffer horribly. Jacinta would weep sometimes because of the incovenience it caused. Lúcia would tell her to take off the rope, but she answered: "No. I want to offer this sacrifice to Our Lord, in reparation and for the conversion of sinners" (II Memória, p.75).

http://www.adf.org.br/home/2010/04/a-missao-da-beata-jacinta-em-salvar-a-alma-dos-pecadores-%E2%80%93-parte-3/
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« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2010, 09:17:32 PM »

I'm pointing out that the caricatures that you guys sometimes like to paint of us are far from the truth.

What caricature is here Wyatt?

I think that you and Papist have simply activated defensive mode and are not even reading what is written even if you are reading the words.

What I am doing is not:

1) asserting that it is for sure a demonic dellusion;

2) making any statement whatsoever about RC doctrine or faith;

What I have done is:

1) Pointed a couple of points that should keep one alert even if it had happened in an Orthodox context, namely: a) a different character in this apparition when compared to others; b) the apparition of successive "modes" of Our Lady and of Our Lord, which not only adds to the strangeness of it, but with the apparition of "three ladies" is even stranger; c) the atmospheric supernatural phenomena that accompanied it are very similar to the ones described in Revelation; d) the self-agression thing.

2) Because of (1) suggested that this apparition in particular should be taken with a tad more skepticism.
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« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2010, 09:20:20 PM »

In the three years that I have been Catholic I have not heard the Pope mentioned even once in a sermon. In fact, the only time I hear anything about him is during the Eucharistic prayer when we say, "Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with Benedict our pope and [insert bishop name] our bishop....etc." I hear the Pope brought up more on here than I do at Mass.

Are you complaining that your priest doesn't preach on one of the most important aspects of your church, or rather that the Orthodox are more interested in discussing it on a sub-forum set aside for such discussions?  police
Neither. Just that EOs are more interested in the Papacy than Catholics are.

You can't be serious. Look at the first page where all the threads are in this sub-forum. Most of them have been created by non-Orthodox and they are usually asking the Orthodox opinion on certain things, more often than not, the papacy. Come on now.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2010, 09:23:53 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2010, 09:40:11 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2010, 09:43:40 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes

Seriously? You have to give a smartypants response, don't you? What if I had been someone considering conversion to Roman Catholicism? That would be an incredible turn off at your lack of compassion and flippantness to disregard my opposition of your feast. For shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2010, 09:44:53 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes

Seriously? You have to give a smartypants response, don't you? What if I had been someone considering conversion to Roman Catholicism? That would be an incredible turn off at your lack of compassion and flippantness to disregard my opposition of your feast. For shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
OR... your opposition is just ridiculous.
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« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2010, 09:47:01 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes

Seriously? You have to give a smartypants response, don't you? What if I had been someone considering conversion to Roman Catholicism? That would be an incredible turn off at your lack of compassion and flippantness to disregard my opposition of your feast. For shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
OR... your opposition is just ridiculous.
Wow. Forget it.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2010, 09:50:48 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes

Seriously? You have to give a smartypants response, don't you? What if I had been someone considering conversion to Roman Catholicism? That would be an incredible turn off at your lack of compassion and flippantness to disregard my opposition of your feast. For shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
OR... your opposition is just ridiculous.
Wow. Forget it.

In Christ,
Andrew
Sorry buddy, but for years I have watched the "netodox" attack non-issues in order to justify their embrace of anti-Catholicism. When I see them criticize things like devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, or Divine Mercy Sunday, I just have to shake my head.
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« Reply #85 on: November 02, 2010, 09:55:21 PM »

Isn't that suppose to Pascha ,the feast of feasts when where brought, from death unto life everlasting...Oh death where is thy sting Oh grave where is thy victory...Christ has risen and you are no more.......The Other thing you call divine Mercy is called strange Doctrine....
....


True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 09:56:53 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #86 on: November 02, 2010, 10:00:10 PM »

Isn't that suppose to Pascha ,the feast of feasts when where brought, from death unto life everlasting...Oh death where is thy sting Oh grave where is thy victory...Christ has risen and you are no more.......The Other thing you call divine Mercy is called strange Doctrine....
....


True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes
Celebrating the Mercy of God during the Octave of Easter is a strange doctrine? wow.
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« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2010, 10:00:37 PM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Yet what new truth is revealed by such a revelation? On Divine Mercy Sunday we do venerate an image inspired by the one from St. Faustina, but what we are doing is not new. We are praising God for his mercy. I fail to see how that is scandalous.

Isn't that suppose to Pascha ,the feast of feasts when where brought, from death unto life everlasting...Oh death where is thy sting Oh grave where is thy victory...Christ has risen and you are no more.......The Other thing you call divine Mercy is called strange Doctrine....
What strange doctrine was revealed to St. Faustina? I don't know of any.
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« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2010, 11:17:56 PM »

"As for it being a rope just itchy and uncomfortable, here is an extract from the "Associação Devotos de Fátima" (Association of Devouts of Fatima):"

A rope remians a rope and wearing one is not the same as flagellation/flogging.  Eastern monks were also known to wear chains and hairshirts, sleep on rocks, kneel for extended periods, sit on poles: all forms of mortification.

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« Reply #89 on: November 03, 2010, 12:34:03 AM »

True, though Divine Mercy Sunday is a celebration of the mercy of God, which you could acknowledge without accepting St Faustina's visions.
But Divine Mercy Sunday is deeply entrenched with Faustina's visions, along with the image. If DM Sunday and the image were already established before her supposed visions, then I would say you had a point.

In Christ,
Andrew
Oh the horrors of celebrating the mercy of God.  Roll Eyes

Seriously? You have to give a smartypants response, don't you? What if I had been someone considering conversion to Roman Catholicism? That would be an incredible turn off at your lack of compassion and flippantness to disregard my opposition of your feast. For shame.

In Christ,
Andrew
OR... your opposition is just ridiculous.
Wow. Forget it.

In Christ,
Andrew
Sorry buddy, but for years I have watched the "netodox" attack non-issues in order to justify their embrace of anti-Catholicism. When I see them criticize things like devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, or Divine Mercy Sunday, I just have to shake my head.
Papist and Wyatt,
If one may endeavor to reason here, it is just that the Orthodox, by and large, are cautious about things which come from a spiritual tradition outside our experience. Certain things like the Sacred Heart devotion appear to us very strange. While we may agree with the essence, we have issues with the practice, the spirituality, the symbolism, or the visions connected with such things. We celebrate the mercy of God every service we hold, but do not see something like Divine Mercy Sunday as being ONLY about the mercy of God, but also about a vision and other things outside our experience. You do neither yourself, your faith, or anyone else favors when you make generalizations. I'm not going to say these devotions or certain features of Francis of Assisi represent demonic delusion. I really don't know. But, as this is a discussion forum, I'd expect to be heard on what I have to say about them from my understanding without being brushed off because I don't accept your glib descriptions of these things, but want analysis since they are foreign to my faith's experience and tradition.
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« Reply #90 on: November 03, 2010, 10:12:03 PM »

Just two comments:

1) It is extremely unfair - not to mention inaccurate - to compare Fabio Leite to Jack Chick.

2)  I actually agree with stashko (waits for lightning bolts! Grin ) - there ARE an awful lot of spurious visions of Mary which deceive a lot of people, and may well be demonic.  Many great RC saints such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross advise us to reject ALL such visions, just to be safe.
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« Reply #91 on: November 03, 2010, 11:03:08 PM »

Interesting "Orthodox" apparition. Throw in a dash of ecumenism because the particular object is not a weeping icon, but a statue!

http://www.windsorstar.com/life/Skeptics+question+weeping+Virgin+Mary+statue+Windsor/3772003/story.html

Quote
WINDSOR, Ont. — The Orthodox Christian church to which Fadia Ibrahim belongs is not endorsing her claims that her Virgin Mary statue is miraculous.

Father John Ayoub of the St. Ignatius of Antioch Church in Windsor said he’s well aware of the stir that the statue has caused.

He said Ibrahim approached him in March with stories about the statue, which is said to weep tears of healing oil at night and which has attracted scores of pilgrims to a formerly quiet Windsor neighbourhood.
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« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2010, 11:24:04 PM »

We Don't Accept Idols in Holy Orthodox Churches ,im not sure about home thou, Catholics Could have it if the want it...... Grin
I don't recognize the western Orthodox churches  as Orthodox ,if Some have Idols inside ,In my book there not orthodox ..... Grin
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 11:28:34 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: November 04, 2010, 03:30:39 AM »

I don't recognize the western Orthodox churches  as Orthodox ,if Some have Idols inside ,In my book there not orthodox ..... Grin

Fortunately, it's not your job to decide who is Orthodox and who isn't. Smiley
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« Reply #94 on: November 04, 2010, 11:00:38 AM »

1) It is extremely unfair - not to mention inaccurate - to compare Fabio Leite to Jack Chick.
I usually reject all those who attack Holy Mother Church, just to be safe Wink

2)  I actually agree with stashko (waits for lightning bolts! Grin ) - there ARE an awful lot of spurious visions of Mary which deceive a lot of people, and may well be demonic.  Many great RC saints such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross advise us to reject ALL such visions, just to be safe.
I guess I don't get bent out of shape about apparitions because, even though there are several approved by our Church, they have never been a big part (or any part really) of my spirituality so I don't really think about them. I don't believe the ones approved by the Church are demonic though.
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« Reply #95 on: November 04, 2010, 12:29:43 PM »

Just two comments:

1) It is extremely unfair - not to mention inaccurate - to compare Fabio Leite to Jack Chick.

2)  I actually agree with stashko (waits for lightning bolts! Grin ) - there ARE an awful lot of spurious visions of Mary which deceive a lot of people, and may well be demonic.  Many great RC saints such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross advise us to reject ALL such visions, just to be safe.
1) I don't think that Fabio is Jack Chick. In fact, I think that most Fabio's posts at OC.net are fantastic. But in this particular thread, I do believe that Fabio's tactics are similar to the tactics of Jack Chick.
2) Yes there are some that are not genuine, but I doubt one that has been approved by the Church, and carries with it such universal Catholic support would be demonic. "The Church of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth."
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