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Author Topic: Calvinism = Monophysitism?  (Read 2286 times) Average Rating: 0
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JLatimer
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« on: October 07, 2010, 01:01:17 PM »

Would it be fair to describe Calvinist 'monergism' as entailing a kind of monophysitism/monothelitism? What I mean is this: the Eastern Orthodox view of salvation, synergism, means the cooperation of the human being with God; this is consistent with the Orthodox view of the Incarnation. Just as in the Incarnation Divine nature did not swamp human nature out of existence (Eutychianism), in salvation God does not eliminate human nature from the equation, but draws us human beings into loving cooperation with Him.

By contrast, Calvinists don't think we cooperate at all in salvation; humanity plays no role, so...

Am I making any sense?

Why was the Godman necessary if in the end man has nothing to do with anything?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 01:15:40 PM by JLatimer » Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 01:12:49 PM »

Yes, you are making sense. Perry over at Energetic Procession has alot of posts about that very thing. Maybe you should check it put.

If you read Saint Maximus's discourse with uhm......Pr....I forgot his name. But if you read it, then you will see that the Monothelites believed in two wills, they just believed that only the Divine will was active while the human inactive/passive.

This is the same with Calvinistic monergism.

I didn't want to mention the reality of what the classical monothelites believed on this forum due to not wanting to start an argument with deusveritasest. They indeed believed in two wills, they just believed that only the Divine will was active while the human will inactive.


But yes you are correct!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 01:23:38 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 01:59:54 PM »

...the Monothelites believed in two wills...

"Monothelitism teaches that Jesus Christ had two natures but only one will."
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Monothelitism
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 04:39:01 PM »

The Calvinists are soteriologically monoergistic, but nonetheless if you read the actual works on Christology, they are actually quite Nestorian.

If anything it is the Lutherans who were/are Christologically Monophysite.
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2010, 07:45:46 PM »

...the Monothelites believed in two wills...

"Monothelitism teaches that Jesus Christ had two natures but only one will."
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Monothelitism


Saint Maximus Exposition of his dispute with Pyrrhus:
(it's hard to find, but a good chunk of it is in another book called "Free choice in Saint Maximus the Confessor)


Pyrrhus believed in two wills just like Saint Maximus,. The difference was that he only believed the Divine will to be the only one active. The classical Monothelites were Mono, not because they believed that the human will was absorbed or obliterated. They were Mono because they believed the human will to be passive/inactive. And so in that sense they believed in one will. The classical Nestorians were Monothelites as well.



« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 07:55:57 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 08:02:24 PM »

The Calvinists are soteriologically monoergistic, but nonetheless if you read the actual works on Christology, they are actually quite Nestorian.

If anything it is the Lutherans who were/are Christologically Monophysite.

The Nestorians were also Monothelites. Lutherans adhere to the Council of Chalcedon, and so they are Dyophysite in their Christology like us. To be honest, they claim to hold to all 7 councils. But their Monergism will always be in conflict with the 6th Council. The same is true with Rome as well. But yes, they both are suppose to hold to the 6th council.

This youtube clip is of a Lutheran talking about the two Natures of Christ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYJHtjuQj14&playnext=1&videos=jEUDe4WJc0k&feature=mfu_in_order (Is Jesus both God and Man in one person?)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:20:38 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2010, 08:32:52 PM »

Would it be fair to describe Calvinist 'monergism' as entailing a kind of monophysitism/monothelitism? What I mean is this: the Eastern Orthodox view of salvation, synergism, means the cooperation of the human being with God; this is consistent with the Orthodox view of the Incarnation. Just as in the Incarnation Divine nature did not swamp human nature out of existence (Eutychianism), in salvation God does not eliminate human nature from the equation, but draws us human beings into loving cooperation with Him.

By contrast, Calvinists don't think we cooperate at all in salvation; humanity plays no role, so...

Am I making any sense?

Why was the Godman necessary if in the end man has nothing to do with anything?

Come to think of it......after looking at the title again......I think you should change it to Calvinism = Monoenergism & Monothelitism.

Calvinism = Nestorianism when it comes to Christology. But in regards to it's Monergism it equals Monoenergism and Monothelitism.


« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:33:36 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 10:55:56 PM »

Actually, I bet that some of the things that Calvinists say about the separation of God and Christ on the Cross would be even too extreme for the classical Nestorians.
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 10:59:24 PM »

Lutherans adhere to the Council of Chalcedon, and so they are Dyophysite in their Christology like us. To be honest, they claim to hold to all 7 councils.

Have you ever heard of Ubiquitarianism?
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2010, 11:17:44 PM »

Can we just say that Calvinism has some similarities with monergism and Nestorianism, but is really its own beast?
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2010, 11:20:41 PM »

Can we just say that Calvinism has some similarities with monergism and Nestorianism, but is really its own beast?

Of course we can. It's really not exactly like either the classical Nestorians nor the classical Monothelites/Monoenergists.
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 08:31:58 AM »

Can we just say that Calvinism has some similarities with monergism and Nestorianism, but is really its own beast?

Of course we can. It's really not exactly like either the classical Nestorians nor the classical Monothelites/Monoenergists.

Agreed.
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2010, 08:43:32 PM »

Lutherans adhere to the Council of Chalcedon, and so they are Dyophysite in their Christology like us. To be honest, they claim to hold to all 7 councils.

Have you ever heard of Ubiquitarianism?

I just looked it up last week. I really don't know what to say about it at this point in time. I need to reread some things first. Give me a month or two. I'll respond then.

From what I read from the Roman Catholic NewAdvent site......they saw it as error.....etc. And I think Wicki did too.

However, I need to know how it compares with Saint Cyril, and Saint Maximus's teaching. I need to reread free choice in Saint Maximus the Confessor as well as a few other things.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 08:55:32 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2010, 09:00:36 PM »

Lutherans adhere to the Council of Chalcedon, and so they are Dyophysite in their Christology like us. To be honest, they claim to hold to all 7 councils.

Have you ever heard of Ubiquitarianism?

I just looked it up last week. I really don't know what to say about it at this point in time. I need to reread some things first. Give me a month or two. I'll respond then.

From what I read from the Roman Catholic NewAdvent site......they saw it as error.....etc. And I think Wicki did too.

However, I need to know how it compares with Saint Cyril, and Saint Maximus's teaching. I need to reread free choice in Saint Maximus the Confessor as well as a few other things.



Well, my point is not in considering it as if a legitimate opinion, but given its prevalence in early Lutheran thought, providing it as a proof of Lutheran Christology being closer to Monophysitism than most other groups.
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2014, 01:49:04 AM »

"Well, my point is not in considering it as if a legitimate opinion, but given its prevalence in early Lutheran thought, providing it as a proof of Lutheran Christology being closer to Monophysitism than most other groups."

Do you mean Monophysitism as in Eutyches, or Miaphysitism as in Severus and the OO (and arguably Cyril).

If it's the latter, that would be interesting because one of the largest Lutheran churches in the world today is in Ethiopia (it could be the largest if you discount the European state Lutheran churches that are now only hollow shells of their former selves). What is the nature of the interaction between Lutherans and OO? I've heard a lot about Lutheran-EO dialogue, not so much with OO.
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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2014, 01:53:41 AM »

"Well, my point is not in considering it as if a legitimate opinion, but given its prevalence in early Lutheran thought, providing it as a proof of Lutheran Christology being closer to Monophysitism than most other groups."

Do you mean Monophysitism as in Eutyches, or Miaphysitism as in Severus and the OO (and arguably Cyril).

If it's the latter, that would be interesting because one of the largest Lutheran churches in the world today is in Ethiopia (it could be the largest if you discount the European state Lutheran churches that are now only hollow shells of their former selves). What is the nature of the interaction between Lutherans and OO? I've heard a lot about Lutheran-EO dialogue, not so much with OO.

Sorry, that fella hasn't posted in a few years.
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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2014, 01:58:29 AM »

Argh! I really need to look at dates on threads closer when I find them via searching.

I'm still curious about whether there's been any dialogue between the Ethiopian Lutherans and the Ethiopian Orthodox. Maybe some of the Ethiopian Orthodox posters on here would know?
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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2014, 02:01:29 AM »

"Well, my point is not in considering it as if a legitimate opinion, but given its prevalence in early Lutheran thought, providing it as a proof of Lutheran Christology being closer to Monophysitism than most other groups."

Do you mean Monophysitism as in Eutyches, or Miaphysitism as in Severus and the OO (and arguably Cyril).

If it's the latter, that would be interesting because one of the largest Lutheran churches in the world today is in Ethiopia (it could be the largest if you discount the European state Lutheran churches that are now only hollow shells of their former selves). What is the nature of the interaction between Lutherans and OO? I've heard a lot about Lutheran-EO dialogue, not so much with OO.

Sorry, that fella hasn't posted in a few years.

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