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JLatimer
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« on: October 07, 2010, 11:28:47 AM »

What connections, if any, are there between the 40 days and nights of the flood, and our Lord's 40 days of fasting in the wilderness?
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1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 01:27:06 PM »


There are also 40 days between the Resurrection and the Ascension.

40 days from giving birth to a child and the churching of the mother.

Didn't the Jews wander in the desert for 40 years?
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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 02:04:31 PM »

Some random thoughts... I'm sure many would see in that example some profound truth(s)... I would tend to see in it something more along the lines of symbolism (but not coincidence). I seem to recall Theodore G. Stylianopoulos discussing typology in his book The New Testament: An Orthodox Perspective, Volume 1: Scripture, Tradition, Hermeneutics, though I don't recall which particular passages he discussed. According to my handy dandy Thompson Chain-Reference Bible, these are the instances in the Bible involving 40 days:

- Flood lasted (Gen. 7:17)
- The embalming of Jacob occupied (Gen. 50:3)
- Moses on the mount fasting (Ex. 24:18; 34:28)
- Spies in the land of Canaan (Num. 13:25)
- Moses in prayer for Israel (Deut. 9:25)
- Goliath's defiance lasted (1 Sam. 17:16)
- Elijah's meal lasted (1 Kings 19:8 )
- Ezekiel's typical period (Eze. 4:6)
- Jonah's warning concerning the destruction of Nineveh (Jonah 3:4)
- Christ's temptation (Luke 4:2)
- Christ's appearance after the resurrection (Acts 1:3)

Also listed are passages which involve forty years: Ex. 16:35; Num. 14:33; Judg. 3:11; Ps. 95:10; Eze. 29:11.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 02:05:58 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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JLatimer
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 02:17:35 PM »

Quote
- The embalming of Jacob occupied (Gen. 50:3)

Cool. That's one I didn't recall. I wonder what that means.
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1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
JMTRD6
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2010, 02:49:14 PM »

Here is the answer from a Jewish perspective

Quote
The number forty has significance throughout the Torah, and the Talmud.

For example, when a person becomes ritually impure, he must go to a ritual bath, a Mikveh. The Talmud tells us that a Mikveh must be filled with FORTY measures of water, and a person, must completely submerse himself in it. After being submersed, he leaves the Mikveh ritually pure. It is no accident, that in the story of Noah, the rain poured for FORTY days, and surrounded the world with water. And just as a person leaves a Mikveh pure, so too when the waters of the flood subsided, the world was pure.

According to the Maharal (16th century, Prague), the number FORTY has the power to raise up something's spiritual state. Just as FORTY measures of water purifies a person, and FORTY days of rain purified the world, so too Moses being on Mt. Sinai for FORTY days also had a purifying effect, in that the Jews arrived at Mt. Sinai as a nation of Egyptian slaves, but after forty days they were G-d's nation.

In the Deuteronomy, Moses tells the Jewish people that he had "led them FORTY years in the wilderness," (29:3-4) after he told them that "G-d has not given you a heart to know, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, until this day." So we see, it took the Jewish people FORTY years in the desert before they could understand the things that took place. Accordingly, the Mishna in Ethics of Our Fathers explains that "a man of forty attains understanding." (5:26) (Ethics from Sinai).

Finally, according to the Talmud, it takes FORTY days for an embryo to be formed in its mother's womb.

With blessings from Jerusalem,

Rabbi Shraga Simmons

<Red highlight added by me>

I, too, have been fascinated by the consistent usage of the number 40 in the OT, whether it be days/nights or years.  Hopefully one of our own can shed even more light on the subject, from an Orthodox perspective.

Source:  http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_forty.htm
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JLatimer
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 03:16:29 PM »

Here is the answer from a Jewish perspective

Quote
The number forty has significance throughout the Torah, and the Talmud.

For example, when a person becomes ritually impure, he must go to a ritual bath, a Mikveh. The Talmud tells us that a Mikveh must be filled with FORTY measures of water, and a person, must completely submerse himself in it. After being submersed, he leaves the Mikveh ritually pure. It is no accident, that in the story of Noah, the rain poured for FORTY days, and surrounded the world with water. And just as a person leaves a Mikveh pure, so too when the waters of the flood subsided, the world was pure.

According to the Maharal (16th century, Prague), the number FORTY has the power to raise up something's spiritual state. Just as FORTY measures of water purifies a person, and FORTY days of rain purified the world, so too Moses being on Mt. Sinai for FORTY days also had a purifying effect, in that the Jews arrived at Mt. Sinai as a nation of Egyptian slaves, but after forty days they were G-d's nation.

In the Deuteronomy, Moses tells the Jewish people that he had "led them FORTY years in the wilderness," (29:3-4) after he told them that "G-d has not given you a heart to know, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, until this day." So we see, it took the Jewish people FORTY years in the desert before they could understand the things that took place. Accordingly, the Mishna in Ethics of Our Fathers explains that "a man of forty attains understanding." (5:26) (Ethics from Sinai).

Finally, according to the Talmud, it takes FORTY days for an embryo to be formed in its mother's womb.

With blessings from Jerusalem,

Rabbi Shraga Simmons

<Red highlight added by me>

I, too, have been fascinated by the consistent usage of the number 40 in the OT, whether it be days/nights or years.  Hopefully one of our own can shed even more light on the subject, from an Orthodox perspective.

Source:  http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_forty.htm

I like this because it reinforces the baptism <-> flood connection in my mind, but I still wonder how it would relate to Christ's fasting. How could He be purified Who is all-immaculate? Might His fasting have a similar meaning to His baptism?
Quote
the number FORTY has the power to raise up something's spiritual state
Perhaps the number 40 acquired this "power" because of Christ's fasting for 40 days?

But what about that enbalming of Israel? Smiley
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 03:24:47 PM by JLatimer » Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
JMTRD6
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2010, 03:32:44 PM »

I like this because it reinforces the baptism <-> flood connection in my mind, but I still wonder how it would relate to Christ's fasting. How could He be purified Who is all-immaculate? Might His fasting have a similar meaning to His baptism?
Quote
the number FORTY has the power to raise up something's spiritual state
Perhaps the number 40 acquired this "power" because of Christ's fasting for 40 days?

But what about that enbalming of Israel? Smiley

As far as Christ fasting, our parish Priest has told us that Christ did this (and other things) that were of significance to the Jews in order to establish his authenticity as the Messiah.  I suppose one could tie it into Mathew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."   
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JLatimer
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 08:57:45 PM »

Matthew 4:1-4
Quote
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. [2] And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. [3] And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. [4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This is what I've been able to come up with on the connection between this passage and Noah:

The devil hates humanity and indeed all of creation, and the last thing he wants is for the Incarnation to succeed. He, the evil one, 'invented' enmity between God and man, and there's no way he's going to let the Godman abolish it. So he comes to Jesus Christ, who is hungry after 40 days of fasting, thinking, Hmm, hungry... this'll be easy. I'll do it just like last time! I'll get him to sin with food. He wants Jesus to sin like Adam, so that He will die like Adam, and God's purpose will be thwarted.

The significance of the 40 days then, is huge, especially as it relates to  Noah and the flood. The end of the flood is the beginning of a 'new' creation, the old having been wiped out. So, too, is Jesus' temptation the beginning of the new creation. The 40 days and 40 nights help to establish Christ as the new and better Adam. 

Unlike the first time around, when Adam sinned by transgressing the commandment and eating the forbidden fruit, in the new creation, Jesus Christ refuses to listen to the devil and to turn the stones into bread. Perhaps this is part of the reason why our liturgical hymns specifically mention that Adam sinned by failing to fast?
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1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
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