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Author Topic: Original Sin  (Read 1058 times) Average Rating: 0
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sprtslvr1973
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« on: October 06, 2010, 08:36:38 PM »

Does the Coptic church take a stand closer to the Western churches?
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Salpy
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2010, 09:20:47 PM »

I've been told that the OO's are closer to the EO's in our understanding of original sin and that we reject the Western concept.  I can't quote any official sources, though.  It's just what I've been told.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 12:48:00 AM »

I think both the Byzantine and Oriental doctrines of the ancestral curse are essentially based off of Saint Athanasius (in On the Incarnation), so it would be hard to understand why the Oriental position would be more Western.
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Ioannes
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2010, 01:35:21 AM »

Does the Coptic church take a stand closer to the Western churches?

No. We inherit a fallen nature, hence we die. If all sin is cleansed in a mother and father and they have a child then they would not pass down the sin, since they were cleansed of it. So it does not make sense.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2010, 01:41:49 AM »

Does the Coptic church take a stand closer to the Western churches?

No. We inherit a fallen nature, hence we die. If all sin is cleansed in a mother and father and they have a child then they would not pass down the sin, since they were cleansed of it. So it does not make sense.

I'm highly skeptical of the orthodoxy of your conception of the fallen nature you describe here.
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Ioannes
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2010, 09:51:37 AM »

Does the Coptic church take a stand closer to the Western churches?

No. We inherit a fallen nature, hence we die. If all sin is cleansed in a mother and father and they have a child then they would not pass down the sin, since they were cleansed of it. So it does not make sense.

I'm highly skeptical of the orthodoxy of your conception of the fallen nature you describe here.


How unorthodox is inheriting a fallen nature? Read St. John Chrysostom's homilies on Genesis and One the Human Condition by St. Basil and then tell me how skeptical you are of its Orthodoxy.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2010, 02:28:04 PM »

Does the Coptic church take a stand closer to the Western churches?

No. We inherit a fallen nature, hence we die. If all sin is cleansed in a mother and father and they have a child then they would not pass down the sin, since they were cleansed of it. So it does not make sense.

I'm highly skeptical of the orthodoxy of your conception of the fallen nature you describe here.


How unorthodox is inheriting a fallen nature? Read St. John Chrysostom's homilies on Genesis and One the Human Condition by St. Basil and then tell me how skeptical you are of its Orthodoxy.

No no. You don't understand. There is nothing unorthodox about inheriting a fallen nature. Rather, I think your conception of the fallen nature is too soft.
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Ioannes
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2010, 09:17:34 PM »

Explain.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2010, 05:45:25 PM »

Explain.

For one thing, you seem to chalk up the fallen nature simply to physical death, which is far from the reality of how the doctrine of the ancestral curse is described in its foundational work, On the Incarnation, by Saint Athanasius. Rather, there is a spiritual death which results from losing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and communion with God; physical death is merely a consequence of this spiritual death.

For another, saying that a child born of two Baptized individuals would not inherit the ancestral curse is not an opinion I have ever heard advanced and sounds rather unorthodox, as it would negate the necessity of infant Baptism for that individual.
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2010, 08:51:48 PM »

deusveritasest, I am sorry to inform you but you completely misunderstood what I said, or maybe I was not clear enough. I did not equate inheriting the fallen nature as only death, more less HENCE we die, meaning as one of the things we inherit and NOT sin.

LOL and I said that two parents being baptized would negate original sin in an infant, AGAINST the RCC view of original sin as opposed to fallen nature. If you want me to go into detail to the point where I recite "On the incarnation" and "On the human condition" I apologize I cannot do that, I dont have the time.

I tried to be as brief as possible "hence we die", clearly does not encompass all of our inherited fallen nature. Sorry for apparently doing a terrible job explaining it.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2010, 02:31:26 AM »

deusveritasest, I am sorry to inform you but you completely misunderstood what I said, or maybe I was not clear enough. I did not equate inheriting the fallen nature as only death, more less HENCE we die, meaning as one of the things we inherit and NOT sin.

Well, this is not really what I was attempting to criticize and is largely semantic, but I feel it worth pointing out. "Sin" in a more Patristic and traditional sense is understood as any way in which we miss the mark of what God intends for us; this can include missing the mark in simply the condition of our being. As such, the ancestral curse was often referred to as a sinful condition, even though it is not a matter of personal sin, stain, or guilt. Many on here avoiding referring to the ancestral curse as sinful because they fall into the error essentially of only regarding sin as an action.

LOL and I said that two parents being baptized would negate original sin in an infant, AGAINST the RCC view of original sin as opposed to fallen nature.

They would still inherit "original sin", if by this we mean ancestral sin, which means the ancestral curse. At least we have not been given any reason to think otherwise. All the children of Christians through the centuries have still had to be Baptized because it has been understood that they inherit ancestral sin.
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2010, 01:59:52 PM »

I believe that! That was a comparison that I was trying to make, I thought I elaborated on it well but apparently not.
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2010, 06:34:38 PM »

Huh. Ok...
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