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Author Topic: Clement of Alexandria  (Read 1529 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 03, 2010, 12:10:49 AM »

Is Clement officially recognized as a Saint in any of the OO churches?
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2010, 12:30:14 AM »

I don't see him on the Armenian calendar.
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2010, 01:50:23 AM »

I don't see him on the Armenian calendar.

I chuckled reading this post for the second time  Grin

St. Clement, although not in the Coptic Calendar is revered as a saint in the Coptic Church by most of the Church heirarchs, especially in their writings.
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:34 PM »

I don't see him on the Armenian calendar.

I chuckled reading this post for the second time  Grin

St. Clement, although not in the Coptic Calendar is revered as a saint in the Coptic Church by most of the Church heirarchs, especially in their writings.

So he is commonly revered as a Saint by the Copts, but it's not official?
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2010, 12:26:04 AM »

St. Clement believed that angels co-habited with humans, who bore their offspring. (Gen.6, 2 Pet. 2:4)
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2010, 12:31:45 AM »

St. Clement believed that angels co-habited with humans, who bore their offspring. (Gen.6, 2 Pet. 2:4)
You have any evidence of this claim?
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2010, 12:39:49 AM »

Yep.

 St. Clement of Alexandria  (c.150 - c. 215), “To which also we shall add, that the angels who had obtained the superior rank, having sunk into pleasures, told to the women the secrets which had come to their knowledge; while the rest of the angels concealed them, or rather, kept them against the coming of the Lord. Thence emanated the doctrine of providence, and the revelation of high things; and prophecy having already been imparted to the philosophers of the Greeks, the treatment of dogma arose among the philosophers, sometimes true when they hit the mark, and sometimes erroneous,”
[Source: Clement of Alexanderia, The Stromata (Miscellanies, Book 5, Chapter 1]


Read Gen.6, 2 Pet. 2:4, and all of Jude
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2010, 12:48:47 AM »

also.....

“Heaven delights in two charioteers, by whom alone the chariot of fire is guided. For the mind is carried away by pleasure; and the unsullied principle of reason, when not instructed by the Word, slides down into licentiousness, and gets a fall as the due reward of its transgression. An example of this are the angels, who renounced the beauty of God for a beauty which fades, and so fell from heaven to earth.”
[Source: Clement of Alexanderia, The instructor ( pedagogus), Book 3, Chapter 2]

Sorry, I thought this one was on there. Then I messed up trying to modify it.



« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 12:49:40 AM by Ioannes » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2010, 01:57:45 AM »

Okay, let's rephrase my question into something more appropriate to your claim. What's so heretical about St. Clement's belief that angels cohabited with humans and that human women bore their offspring? Isn't that implied in Genesis 6 (the narrative of events leading up to the Flood)? Haven't many associated the "sons of God" who "came in to the daughters of men" with angels?

I could very well be reading much more into your post than you intended, so if I am, please forgive my questioning. I'm just confused as to why you deem it necessary to point out the fact that St. Clement made this claim on a thread that asks if OO venerate him as a saint.
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2010, 09:45:51 AM »

Okay, let's rephrase my question into something more appropriate to your claim. What's so heretical about St. Clement's belief that angels cohabited with humans and that human women bore their offspring? Isn't that implied in Genesis 6 (the narrative of events leading up to the Flood)? Haven't many associated the "sons of God" who "came in to the daughters of men" with angels?

I could very well be reading much more into your post than you intended, so if I am, please forgive my questioning. I'm just confused as to why you deem it necessary to point out the fact that St. Clement made this claim on a thread that asks if OO venerate him as a saint.

Where did I imply that St. Clement is a heretic? I expect an apology for that one. I love and admire him and I too believe that angel co-habited with women. The fact that the hebrew clearly states this and leaves no room for any other interpretation (Gen 6) clearly proves St. Clement is correct in his belief. Had you read the verses that I gave to compliment this belief then maybe you would not have jumped to the conclusion that I believe St. Clement is a heretic.

The simple fact is angels co-habited with women. They divulged to them secrets in exchange that mankind worship them as gods, and make sacrafices to them. This is where the ancient pagan religions come from, gnosticism also draws many of their beliefs from the theology of these beings. These monumental structures also come from what Enoch calls the watchers, which we assume are a lower rank of angels who's job is to supervise mankind or watch over them. The book of Enoch is the key to understanding our mysterious past.
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2010, 10:06:31 AM »

Okay, let's rephrase my question into something more appropriate to your claim. What's so heretical about St. Clement's belief that angels cohabited with humans and that human women bore their offspring? Isn't that implied in Genesis 6 (the narrative of events leading up to the Flood)? Haven't many associated the "sons of God" who "came in to the daughters of men" with angels?

I could very well be reading much more into your post than you intended, so if I am, please forgive my questioning. I'm just confused as to why you deem it necessary to point out the fact that St. Clement made this claim on a thread that asks if OO venerate him as a saint.

Where did I imply that St. Clement is a heretic? I expect an apology for that one. I love and admire him and I too believe that angel co-habited with women. The fact that the hebrew clearly states this and leaves no room for any other interpretation (Gen 6) clearly proves St. Clement is correct in his belief. Had you read the verses that I gave to compliment this belief then maybe you would not have jumped to the conclusion that I believe St. Clement is a heretic.

The simple fact is angels co-habited with women. They divulged to them secrets in exchange that mankind worship them as gods, and make sacrafices to them. This is where the ancient pagan religions come from, gnosticism also draws many of their beliefs from the theology of these beings. These monumental structures also come from what Enoch calls the watchers, which we assume are a lower rank of angels who's job is to supervise mankind or watch over them. The book of Enoch is the key to understanding our mysterious past.

Relax...Why be so defensive? Peter expressly acknowledged that he perhaps misunderstood you. You weren't at all clear as to your intention in quoting Clement's interpretation of Genesis 6.
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2010, 11:21:34 AM »

Ekhristos, he clearly stated "whats so heretical" as if I was implying that. Defensive? Do not accuse me of something I did not say, if you misunderstand me, that is fine, dont jump to conclusions. I was totally justified in my response to an accusation that was unfounded. Demanding an apology is justified. Why would you post something like that Ekhristos?
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2010, 11:34:22 AM »

I'm probably going to regret pointing this out, but...

Ekhristos, he clearly stated "whats so heretical" as if I was implying that. Defensive? Do not accuse me of something I did not say, if you misunderstand me, that is fine, dont jump to conclusions. I was totally justified in my response to an accusation that was unfounded. Demanding an apology is justified. Why would you post something like that Ekhristos?

And he also very clearly stated the following:
Quote
I could very well be reading much more into your post than you intended, so if I am, please forgive my questioning. I'm just confused as to why you deem it necessary to point out the fact that St. Clement made this claim on a thread that asks if OO venerate him as a saint.

He admitted he may be wrong and reading into your statement, especially since your first post seemed rather non sequitor.  It is quite ungracious and rude to jump down someone's throat when he admits that he may be wrong for being wrong.

He also did not imply that you thought St. Clement was a heretic.  One can have possibly heretical beliefs and still not be a heretic (cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa and his acceptance of apokastasis).  PeterTheAleut asked you rather humbly for clarification, taking pains to admit that his initial assessment may be wrong and you jumped down his throat.  
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2010, 11:50:33 AM »

"What's so heretical about St. Clement's belief" I am pointing out that he is clearly jumping to conclusions, yes he did say he could be wrong, but I expect an apology none the less! Something along the lines of, sorry for assuming that you thought St. Clement is a heretic. Post things relevant to the discussion and keep your nonsense to yourself.
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2010, 11:54:10 AM »

"What's so heretical about St. Clement's belief" I am pointing out that he is clearly jumping to conclusions, yes he did say he could be wrong, but I expect an apology none the less! Something along the lines of, sorry for assuming that you thought St. Clement is a heretic. Post things relevant to the discussion and keep your nonsense to yourself.

That was the point of Peter's question.  What does St. Clement's belief in the cohabitation of angels with human women have to do with his sainthood in the OO communion?
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 12:03:00 PM »

"What's so heretical about St. Clement's belief" I am pointing out that he is clearly jumping to conclusions, yes he did say he could be wrong, but I expect an apology none the less! Something along the lines of, sorry for assuming that you thought St. Clement is a heretic. Post things relevant to the discussion and keep your nonsense to yourself.
What does St. Clement's belief in the cohabitation of angels with human women have to do with his sainthood in the OO communion?

Nothing at all. But he couldn't help himself from showing off a bit of knowledge that he had collected, however irrelevant it might be. Of course, far be it from me to ever engage in such behavior!  Tongue
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2010, 12:13:52 PM »

"What's so heretical about St. Clement's belief" I am pointing out that he is clearly jumping to conclusions, yes he did say he could be wrong, but I expect an apology none the less! Something along the lines of, sorry for assuming that you thought St. Clement is a heretic.


The problem here is clear to most of us. let's break down what happened here:

1.) Someone posted a question asking "is St. Clement a Saint in OO?"

2.) Someone said YES he is a saint in the Coptic Church.

3.) You then made a post, void of any context of why you were posting, that said St. Clement in fact believed angels had sex with humans.  

4.) Peter asked for some evidence for this belief

5.)You then posted a bunch of quotes about a  belief St. Clement had about angels and humans, yet it was still void of any context of why you were posting these quotes to begin with.

It appeared to Peter (as well as others) that you were in fact trying to "refute" the idea that St. Clement was in fact a saint. That's the problem with proof texting in general. You took some quotes from a Church father and never gave us the reason you were posting them. You might as well have been posting St. Clement's opinion on which type of bread he liked to eat with his supper. Without the context behind the quotes you left the intention completely open to interpretation.

Within the general "feel" of a discourse or dialogue it simply seemed as though you were trying to refute St. Clement's sainthood. Peter admitted he could be wrong (that he might have been misreading you) and so he already asked for your forgiveness. It's your choice to  forgive him or not to forgive him for an honest mistake at this point. He shouldn't have to ask twice.

Quote
Post things relevant to the discussion and keep your nonsense to yourself.

Exactly how was your first post "St. Clement believed so and so" relevant to the question of the OP?


NP
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2010, 12:14:21 PM »

"What's so heretical about St. Clement's belief" I am pointing out that he is clearly jumping to conclusions, yes he did say he could be wrong, but I expect an apology none the less! Something along the lines of, sorry for assuming that you thought St. Clement is a heretic. Post things relevant to the discussion and keep your nonsense to yourself.

That was the point of Peter's question.  What does St. Clement's belief in the cohabitation of angels with human women have to do with his sainthood in the OO communion?


Exactly! Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2010, 01:47:46 PM »

From my experience, not all saints known to the Church and considered official are on any given calendar. I have yet to see a calendar that is entirely complete. The calendar is a starting place. Often, one needs to look further. Maybe it's different in other churches.
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2010, 02:10:07 PM »

"What's so heretical about St. Clement's belief" I am pointing out that he is clearly jumping to conclusions, yes he did say he could be wrong, but I expect an apology none the less! Something along the lines of, sorry for assuming that you thought St. Clement is a heretic.


The problem here is clear to most of us. let's break down what happened here:

1.) Someone posted a question asking "is St. Clement a Saint in OO?"

2.) Someone said YES he is a saint in the Coptic Church.

3.) You then made a post, void of any context of why you were posting, that said St. Clement in fact believed angels had sex with humans.  

4.) Peter asked for some evidence for this belief

5.)You then posted a bunch of quotes about a  belief St. Clement had about angels and humans, yet it was still void of any context of why you were posting these quotes to begin with.

It appeared to Peter (as well as others) that you were in fact trying to "refute" the idea that St. Clement was in fact a saint. That's the problem with proof texting in general. You took some quotes from a Church father and never gave us the reason you were posting them. You might as well have been posting St. Clement's opinion on which type of bread he liked to eat with his supper. Without the context behind the quotes you left the intention completely open to interpretation.

Within the general "feel" of a discourse or dialogue it simply seemed as though you were trying to refute St. Clement's sainthood. Peter admitted he could be wrong (that he might have been misreading you) and so he already asked for your forgiveness. It's your choice to  forgive him or not to forgive him for an honest mistake at this point. He shouldn't have to ask twice.

Quote
Post things relevant to the discussion and keep your nonsense to yourself.

Exactly how was your first post "St. Clement believed so and so" relevant to the question of the OP?


NP


First off it was more of an offhand remark. Most people disagree with this view yet fail to realize many church fathers did. While he may have asked for forgiveness for misreading what I wrote, that does not justify what he previously said. And as for such an ignorant remark by Asteriktos, what a generalized stupid comment, what was the purpose of that. Everyone got their panties in a bunge for simply demanding an apology for such a rash leap in logic. He could have said, why did you post that.

This was between Peter and I, unless you would like to weigh in on the actual subject you should hush up and quit with the childish generalizations and stupidity. Why dont you all let Peter reply for himself, then he and I can continue in this discussion, if indeed he chooses to. Quit throwing your two cents in as to why Peter was totally justified and how bad I am, or how much I am trying to "Show Off". Get a friggin life trolls!
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2010, 02:16:22 PM »

"What's so heretical about St. Clement's belief" I am pointing out that he is clearly jumping to conclusions, yes he did say he could be wrong, but I expect an apology none the less! Something along the lines of, sorry for assuming that you thought St. Clement is a heretic.


The problem here is clear to most of us. let's break down what happened here:

1.) Someone posted a question asking "is St. Clement a Saint in OO?"

2.) Someone said YES he is a saint in the Coptic Church.

3.) You then made a post, void of any context of why you were posting, that said St. Clement in fact believed angels had sex with humans.  

4.) Peter asked for some evidence for this belief

5.)You then posted a bunch of quotes about a  belief St. Clement had about angels and humans, yet it was still void of any context of why you were posting these quotes to begin with.

It appeared to Peter (as well as others) that you were in fact trying to "refute" the idea that St. Clement was in fact a saint. That's the problem with proof texting in general. You took some quotes from a Church father and never gave us the reason you were posting them. You might as well have been posting St. Clement's opinion on which type of bread he liked to eat with his supper. Without the context behind the quotes you left the intention completely open to interpretation.

Within the general "feel" of a discourse or dialogue it simply seemed as though you were trying to refute St. Clement's sainthood. Peter admitted he could be wrong (that he might have been misreading you) and so he already asked for your forgiveness. It's your choice to  forgive him or not to forgive him for an honest mistake at this point. He shouldn't have to ask twice.

Quote
Post things relevant to the discussion and keep your nonsense to yourself.

Exactly how was your first post "St. Clement believed so and so" relevant to the question of the OP?


NP


First off it was more of an offhand remark. Most people disagree with this view yet fail to realize many church fathers did. While he may have asked for forgiveness for misreading what I wrote, that does not justify what he previously said. And as for such an ignorant remark by Asteriktos, what a generalized stupid comment, what was the purpose of that. Everyone got their panties in a bunge for simply demanding an apology for such a rash leap in logic. He could have said, why did you post that.

This was between Peter and I, unless you would like to weigh in on the actual subject you should hush up and quit with the childish generalizations and stupidity. Why dont you all let Peter reply for himself, then he and I can continue in this discussion, if indeed he chooses to. Quit throwing your two cents in as to why Peter was totally justified and how bad I am, or how much I am trying to "Show Off". Get a friggin life trolls!
Ioannes, I very much appreciate what Schultz, NorthernPines, and EkhristosAnesti have said on my behalf. It's actually better in this situation that they stand up to defend me than I stand up to defend myself, and, since this is a public discussion forum, they have every right to do so. Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2010, 02:26:49 PM »

Quote
And as for such an ignorant remark by Asteriktos, what a generalized stupid comment, what was the purpose of that.

I found the brief diversion enjoyable. Your self-important response added to my pleasure, thank you Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2010, 02:49:15 PM »

Ekhristos, he clearly stated "whats so heretical" as if I was implying that. Defensive? Do not accuse me of something I did not say, if you misunderstand me, that is fine, dont jump to conclusions. I was totally justified in my response to an accusation that was unfounded. Demanding an apology is justified. Why would you post something like that Ekhristos?

You are awefully high maintenance for being a new poster.   He already gave an apology in advance, so I think you owe him an apology for not acknowledging that he did so.     

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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2010, 02:52:12 PM »

(cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa and his acceptance of apokastasis).

*facepalm*
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2010, 02:53:52 PM »

Quit throwing your two cents in as to why Peter was totally justified and how bad I am, or how much I am trying to "Show Off". Get a friggin life trolls!

TBH, you're the only one looking like a troll here.
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2010, 03:32:18 PM »

Quit throwing your two cents in as to why Peter was totally justified and how bad I am, or how much I am trying to "Show Off". Get a friggin life trolls!

TBH, you're the only one looking like a troll here.
Please be careful, deusveritasest.
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2010, 08:39:42 PM »

Peter, Schutz and Northern Pines:

There was nothing wrong with Ioannes giving additional information about Clement of Alexandria.  Sure, the original question was just about whether he was a saint; however giving additional information about Clement was not so way off topic as to justify putting Ioannes on the spot and asking why he was giving that information when the OP just asked if Clement was a saint.  He's a new poster and there is no reason for questioning him over something that small.  A gentle suggestion to start a new thread would have served your purpose just fine.


Ioannes:

Things can get rough here and you need to learn to "roll with it," as they say.  Don't get defensive, and if you think someone is out of hand or needs to apologize for something, use the "Report to Moderator" button on the bottom corner of the post you find offensive. 
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« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2010, 08:49:29 PM »

It appeared to Peter (as well as others) that you were in fact trying to "refute" the idea that St. Clement was in fact a saint.

Ioannes belongs to the Ethiopian Church, which includes the Book of Enoch in their canon of scripture.  Saying what he did about Clement would not be an accusation of heresy or a refutation of his sainthood, but rather an assertion that Clement had access to Enoch and gave it credibility.  The latter was my immediate thought when I first read Ioannes' first post in this thread.  

It therefore struck me as odd and unjustified when Peter asserted that Ioannes was accusing Clement of heresy.  I had no idea where Peter got that that from.  However, it is now occurring to me that Peter (and the other EO's who have responded to Ioannes, such as yourself,) is unfamiliar with Enoch.  If that is the case, then I can see how Peter and others would see Ioannes' post as an accusation of heresy, or a refutation of Clement's sainthood.  However, that was not the case.  

I get the feeling that this whole thing is based on a misunderstanding.  If you click on the Book of Enoch tag, below, you'll see what Ioannes was talking about.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 08:55:49 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2010, 09:09:06 PM »

Salpy thank you for intervening, it seems that many children frequent these forums. The problem stems from my direct speaking, people interpret that as being angry, that is more of a reflection on them for interpreting words on a screen. I know it can get rough in forums, many of these people are keyboard cowboys and say what they wish because they are faceless. It was unwarranted for some of these people to take pot shots at me and use ad hominim attacks as opposed to sticking to the topic. I am sure if I accused them of saying some great saint was a heretic, and prefaced it with all do respect, I am sure they would get upset as they seem to love trolling the forums looking for an OO to attack.

I was hoping to have a lovely discussion but that is not a possibility with children parading around the forums as adults.
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« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2010, 09:15:42 PM »

Salpy thank you for intervening, it seems that many children frequent these forums. The problem stems from my direct speaking, people interpret that as being angry, that is more of a reflection on them for interpreting words on a screen. I know it can get rough in forums, many of these people are keyboard cowboys and say what they wish because they are faceless. It was unwarranted for some of these people to take pot shots at me and use ad hominim attacks as opposed to sticking to the topic. I am sure if I accused them of saying some great saint was a heretic, and prefaced it with all do respect, I am sure they would get upset as they seem to love trolling the forums looking for an OO to attack.

I was hoping to have a lovely discussion but that is not a possibility with children parading around the forums as adults.


Cool it, Ioannes.  You just threw out about three or four ad hominem's of your own up there.  I'm giving you slack because you are new.  I'd hate to see you get officially warned this soon after you started posting here, but that's what's going to happen if you continue in this vein.  Just let it go.   
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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2010, 11:31:36 PM »

A ruined discussion.
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« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2010, 11:18:11 AM »

It appeared to Peter (as well as others) that you were in fact trying to "refute" the idea that St. Clement was in fact a saint.

Ioannes belongs to the Ethiopian Church, which includes the Book of Enoch in their canon of scripture.  Saying what he did about Clement would not be an accusation of heresy or a refutation of his sainthood, but rather an assertion that Clement had access to Enoch and gave it credibility.  The latter was my immediate thought when I first read Ioannes' first post in this thread.  

It therefore struck me as odd and unjustified when Peter asserted that Ioannes was accusing Clement of heresy.  I had no idea where Peter got that that from.  However, it is now occurring to me that Peter (and the other EO's who have responded to Ioannes, such as yourself,) is unfamiliar with Enoch.  

Actually I'm aware that Enoch is part of the Ethiopian Canon and have read it, though it has been a number of years. I don't even recall that being in Enoch, but I'm certainly aware of the theological opinion he was talking about.


Quote
If that is the case, then I can see how Peter and others would see Ioannes' post as an accusation of heresy, or a refutation of Clement's sainthood.  However, that was not the case.  

It was the absence of any context that confused so many of us. For me in  had nothing to do  with a EO vs OO interpretation at all. Granted my knowledge of the book of Enoch may not be as good as it should be and my interest in it had far more to do with it's Messianic theology and connection with the 2nd Temple period than it does with this particular issue, of which I personally do not care about.  But that is sort of the point. The problem is that the book of Enoch says all sorts of things, as does the rest of the Bible for that matter and without context anything can be interpreted in any way. I'm familiar with the idea that angels and humans cohabited and know that some Church fathers taught this, as do many modern televangelists including Benny Hinn. So you see, the problem is not what was taught but what context it was taught in. Besides in my view saintliness is determined more by one's life than by one's theological opinions such as these.
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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2010, 11:36:17 AM »

It was unwarranted for some of these people to take pot shots at me and use ad hominim attacks as opposed to sticking to the topic.

But we had no idea what point it was that you were actually attempting to make, which is why there was so much confusion.


Quote
I am sure if I accused them of saying some great saint was a heretic, and prefaced it with all do respect, I am sure they would get upset as they seem to love trolling the forums looking for an OO to attack.

Perhaps if you had been a little more clear about what it was you were trying to say and took the time to get to know people your first days here might have been a little more enjoyable.

I'm sorry if you felt attacked. All I can do is speak for myself, but I am sorry for any offense my confusion might have caused you. As far as attacking you because you are OO, well . . . . if you knew anything about me personally at all you would know that implying such a thing couldn't be further from the truth.

NP

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« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2010, 08:45:34 PM »

NorthernPines, I do understand why people were confused, as I discussed this with Salpy. I left no context because I was not trying to prove anything, I thought it was an interesting fact and just threw it out there. Not everything someone says has to have some sort of context or interpretation. It is what Clement said, why would someone care what I think about it, especially with no context to the verse. More of a journalistic approach, give you the info and let you the reader decide for yourself.

What I said to peter about an apology was half serious and more of an offhand remark, I was just shocked at the responses I got. My problem is that I am very direct and that does not work at all online, at all. People interpret my tone for themselves and forget that this is online discussion. I was not mad or upset at anytime when speaking with Peter. I was a bit upset about him assuming I was referring to Clement as a heretic. As you said there was not context, so you cannot possibly draw anything from it.

But I will definetly be more careful when posting, I can see people are a bit sensitive and seemingly quick to jump to conclusions. That is my fault.
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