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Author Topic: Can Someone Explain This?  (Read 28166 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2004, 06:50:51 PM »

[So he kissed the Koran.  Big deal!  We don't need to justify it. The EP used to be appointed by the Sultan.  Remember you guys wanted the turban not the mitre.]

What does one have to do with the other?

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« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2004, 06:55:50 PM »

Quote
So he kissed the Koran.  Big deal!  We don't need to justify it. The EP used to be appointed by the Sultan.  Remember you guys wanted the turban not the mitre.

The sultan appointed the EP because of an Islamic Military occupation of Greece.  As far as I know Italy is not under Islamic dictatorship.  If takes a severe congnitve malfunction to equate oppression by an invading empire to a free man kissing the Qu'ran.
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« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2004, 06:57:38 PM »

As an RC I certainly appreciate all the EOs and EO wanna be's explaining how our patriarch can be deposed.  Perhaps you might like to help depose him?  Of course you'd need to be RC first.   Grin  

I'm not interested in deposing anyone.  I'm just trying to say that, to my knowledge, a Pope cannot be deposed.  If he can be, please let me know how that could happen, since it would help me finally figure that out, and possibly raise other questions.  

Quote
So he kissed the Koran.  Big deal!  We don't need to justify it.

It can't be justified, IMO.  

Quote
The EP used to be appointed by the Sultan.  Remember you guys wanted the turban not the mitre.

But how is this a recognition of Islam as a religion?  Surely you are not implying that a patriarch being appointed by a (Muslim) governing authority is the same as a patriarch kissing the Muslim holy book?
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« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2004, 07:04:43 PM »

. . . As far as I know Italy is not under Islamic dictatorship. . . .

At the rate the Moslems are increasing in numbers in Italy through immigration and making babies, your statement will likely no longer be true in 50 to 150 years! Grin



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« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2004, 08:02:22 PM »

"You guys wanted the turban, not the mitre."

Ha!  They were hoping the Latins would show up until the last second to save them from the Turks.  Such sentiments as what you wrote were true for some but certainly not of the majority of the populace of Constantinople.

As for my thoughts, I think JP2 is a wonderful man but we just need to admit that it was wrong what he did. He doesn't need to be deposed or kicked out or whatever, but he should retract his actions, plain and simple.

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« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2004, 08:05:56 PM »

I can sympathize with what happened to JP2, because the Muslims probably engineered it for a photo-op.  Let me explain. When I was in India, my ex-fiancee upon wishing me a safe journey thrust a Koran into my face and told me to kiss it to receive her blessing for a safe journey [a good argument for not marrying non-Christians! Thank God I got back with my now-wife!].  Anyway, instinctively I kissed it when it was trust in my face because 1) I am used to kissing books put in my face and 2) I was really floored what was going on.  So I can **understand** JP2's action.

What I **don't** understand is his reaction...You see, immediately after I realized what I had done, I asked Jesus to forgive me and went to confession for it.  Sin absolved, no problema, thank you Lord for forgiving me.  Maybe JP2 privately did so, but a public action demands a public penance.  All he would have to do is say he is sorry, but instead, the "Pope is always right" crowd try to defend this scandelous action.

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« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2004, 08:20:30 PM »

Not to stir the pot, but can anyone tell me who the Orthodox-looking man (presumably a patriarch) in this photo is?

This is supposed to be a picture from some sort of ecumenical prayer service at Assisi in Italy on October 27, 1986.

Note the presence of the Dalai Lama.


Although I agree with the fact that the Pope of Rome, kissing the Quran, is a very scandalous act--especially given his public role among Catholics--and it sends the wrong message (IMO), I do find the Orthodox participation in both Assisi events to be very disturbing.  Remember, the 1st Assisi event, in 1986, was the event wherein the Dalai Lama placed a statue of Buddha on a Roman Catholic altar.  Although we Orthodox can criticize the Roman Catholic hierarchy for sponsoring such an event, that same Assisi event was enthusiastically supported by multiple Orthodox jurisdictions, who sent their representative hierarchs to this religious pow-wow.

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« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2004, 08:39:49 PM »

When the Buddhist monk did that the RC's immediately ran over and took it down. Also, read the Pope's speech at Assissi.  He told the leaders of all religions that peace would only come from Christ.

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« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2004, 09:08:34 PM »



 The EP used to be appointed by the Sultan.  Remember you guys wanted the turban not the mitre.

Carpo-Rusyn

Typical inaccurate "spin". Big difference from 'approval' (meaning pay-off) and 'appointment'.
And ,YES, still the turban , not the miter, any day. But I'd rather have neither.

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« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2004, 09:27:25 PM »

Rome is not under an islamic regime, but remember, the Pope did this when visiting Saddam's Iraq, whose minority Chaldeans were most definitely persecuted. Nobody here has a right to judge. Who knows what would have happened if the Pope mistepped with the Iraqi Muslims?
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« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2004, 09:37:31 PM »

[Ha!  They were hoping the Latins would show up until the last second to save them from the Turks.  Such sentiments as what you wrote were true for some but certainly not of the majority of the populace of Constantinople.]

I'm sorry but have you forgotten that there were Latins defending New Rome from the Turks at the end?  Do all EO's have selective memory loss? Oh well it seems they do.

I think Caff raises a good point about the Chaldean minority.  The pope has to take into account certain political realities such as that there is a minority Christian population in Iraq that he is responsible for.  The pope kissing the Koran doesn't imply he is now a Muslim or that he has abandoned Christ as some have claimed.  I am sorry that EO patriarchs aren't  faced with similar pastoral problems, but  then again the RCC tends not to be ethnic like the EO's, we take anybody.

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« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2004, 10:07:15 PM »

Quote
I am sorry that EO patriarchs aren't  faced with similar pastoral problems, but  then again the RCC tends not to be ethnic like the EO's, we take anybody.

Actually the pastoral issue is more Orthodox, as there are more Orthodox living under the rule of Islam than RCs.  But the Orthodox New Martyrs dealt with it by giving thier lives rather than worshipping the demon allah of Islam.

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« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2004, 11:06:31 PM »

We too have our martyrs but then again they're RCs so probably don't count.

Allah a demon?  Where on earth do you get this stuff?  You know I think you might have more in common with Bin Laden as he views us Christians as worshipping a demon as well.  Extremism in all forms is just wrong.

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« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2004, 11:14:47 PM »

In Christianity any "revelation" that comes and denies Christ is demonic.  There is also evidence to suggest "Allah" comes from combining several pre-Islamic Arab deities.  Look no further than Saint Augustine who calles the pagan "gods" demons - are he and I in the same terrorist cell?

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« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2004, 11:23:38 PM »

An EO idnetifying with St Augustine! I'm shocked.  As for Allah being a amalgam of several Arabic dieties, please cite your source?
Calling Allah a demon or Jesus a false prophet displays a extremism that leads people to drive truck bombs.

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« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2004, 11:58:47 PM »


. . .

 All he would have to do is say he is sorry, but instead, the "Pope is always right" crowd try to defend this scandelous action.

anastasios

Just so we can make this clear, the "Pope is always right" crowd likely comprises a subset of those Catholics called Conservative.  The Liberals and Modernists in the RCC don't particularly care for the guy but also don't think that kissing the Koran is a big deal.  The Traditionalists--I refer to those in union with Rome and not of the SSPX, et. al.--do not generally say the "Pope is always right" and certainly don't believe he is always right.  Traditionalists do not hold with what he has done but are also not ones IMHO who will call for his head on a chopping block.

Catholics are becoming a diverse people Ugh!  I hate that PC word but I used it anyway.
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« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2004, 12:02:56 AM »

I don't see any Orthodox people blowing themselves up.  

Try the book The Sword of the Prophet for starters.
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« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2004, 12:23:35 AM »

This is quickly degenerating into a Catholic vs. Orthodox rant. Let's just be Christian and emphasize what we have in common for a while...like Saints, Fathers, the Eucharist, and Tradition.
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« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2004, 12:38:50 AM »

Rome is not under an islamic regime, but remember, the Pope did this when visiting Saddam's Iraq, whose minority Chaldeans were most definitely persecuted. Nobody here has a right to judge. Who knows what would have happened if the Pope mistepped with the Iraqi Muslims?

I don't think the Muslims would've been terribly offended if the Pope respectfully accepted the book, maybe even opened it up and looked at it appreciatively, without kissing it.  

And I was under the impression (perhaps mistaken) that the Pope never got to visit Iraq.  I thought I remembered reading that a delegation from Iraq had to visit the Vatican since he wasn't able to travel there, and they did some stuff in Rome, and it was in this context that the incident happened.  When did the Pope visit Iraq?
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« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2004, 12:45:18 AM »

IIRC 1999, but it is a moot point. He still had the Chaldeans to think of. I am not an expert on Islamic culture, but I have a friend from Iraq. (Chaldean by culture). I will ask him what he makes of this.
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« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2004, 01:01:16 AM »

There is a lesson to be learn from the fall of Constantinople and the council of Florence regarding sacrificing faith for temporal security.

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« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2004, 04:17:23 AM »

Quote
 As for Allah being a amalgam of several Arabic dieties, please cite your source?
Calling Allah a demon or Jesus a false prophet displays a extremism that leads people to drive truck bombs.
The Quran itself testifies that there are other Gods in Islam !!!
In Surah EL-Nejm, verse 18-20 , when it was first "inspired" (according to muslims), it was inspired to read something like this :" ELLAT and UZZA And Mona, their intercession is accepted (by Allah)." These three Gods were Gods in the old arabic (before Islam) Mekka and had their statues around Kabba.

The occasion was a prayer in the Masjed (a mosque, but where all the religions would go and worship) which gathered the opponents of Muhamed with Muhamed, in Mekka, before he grew powerful. he spent 13 years in Mekka and had only 80 followers, mostly slaves and women  Grin.
To win the pagan worshippers over, he told them that their Gods as indicated in the verse, are not totally false. Their intercession is accepted, meaning they are less than Allah but still divine. His opponents made peace with him.

This is in Kurtubi, Ibn Katheer, Tabari, Galelein commentary. These are the authentic books of Islam and the oldest and the ones acknowledged by muslims. They are mentioned under "reason for inspiration of verses" section.

Now, you won't find these verses nowadays in Quran. After Muhamed grew stronger in Madina after his flight to this city, he didn't need his opponents peace anymore. In fact, he cancelled all the peace treaties with them.
Anyhow, as mentioned in these books, Gebreel ( arabic for Gabriel, the angel,may God forgive us for using the name of the holy archangel Gabriel in connection to Islam) came to Muhamed and told him that the above mentioned verses, in which he acknowledged the Pagan Gods, was actually inspired by Satan, not God. Hence the term "Satanic verses" which caused a controversy many years ago by Salman Rushdy, the indian muslim writer.  

The verses were abrogated, Gebreel told him the right verses and not the one in which Satan intervened with divine inspiration. Abbrogation is also a pillar in Islam "theology" . Meaning, that verses which were peaceful in the beginning of the Quran, to win over christians (mostly arians and ibonians ) and Jews, were abrogated by very violent verses in the end of the Quran, when Muhamed gained power .

Did you ever hear the Islamic prayer "Allah AKbar" ? In arabic, this verse , grammatically does not make sense. It is translated " Allah greater.....", fullstop. Akbar means , as a word, greater....But, another deep look would give it the only meaning it could have and ratify the meaning it originally had, which is "Allah is Akbar". Akbar is name of the High God in the old Arabic Pagan religions. Of course muslims don;t think so, nowadays, and they might not know, sadly.

A good book on Islam would be " The Sources of Islam" by Alfred Tisdall.
It lists how Islam borrowed from different religions and cultures.

All the other resources that list the different cources of Islam are in arabic.
I will list them anyway:

1- " Priest and Prophet" by Abou Mussa El-Hariri (killed by muslims)
 This book talks the christian background of Muhamed and his devotion to an arian or ibionian priest called )Warraqa Ibn Nufel. Most interesting, the first marriage of Muhamed was to the cousin of this priest, a christian woman. The wedding was a christian, and the priest (Warraqa) led the ceremony in "christian" rites . This indicates that Muhamed could probably have been baptized before the marriage. Note this: Muhamed's name is not found before. It is not a common name, actually nobody heard of a Muhamed before the Islamic prophet. Note, that the name in arabic consists of four letter. Changing the second letter with a 3, an arabic letter not prounounced in English, the name would be Mu3amed, which means "The Baptized". Interesting, isn't it ?
Except for the issue with the name, all other facts can be backed up by researching Islamic sources Muslims acknowledge to be authentic and authoritive. The research in Muhamed's life would make it very possible that the above mentioned regarding his  name is very credible.

2- "The problem of Islamic Mind" by Mustafa Guha (killed by muslims)

3- " Islam as a christian heresy " by Ilais Murr ( has a price on his head by muslims)
Very interesting as it discusses the character of Issa (Jesus) in Islam and how it is very much an arian point of view (nestorian at times).

For more info, if I may post a link , you can visit:

www.islamreview.com
www.answering-islam.org

I would rather spend time in learning the christian theology from the Fathers . Also, reading about the Real Islam, and not the westernized version, defiles the mind. But in light of the fact that many people have a very distorted view of Islam, it might be helpful.

Peace,
Stavro
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« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2004, 05:26:29 AM »

As usualy, Stavro, you are a wealth of information. I was aware of the early history here, but not the tie-ins in the Quran. I have two translations of that book and do sometimes read a verse or so; but I just can't bring myself to read the whole thing.
Thanks, again.
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« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2004, 11:30:21 AM »

You're right, Mor. The Pope never went to Iraq. He was hoping to visit as part of a pilgrimage to all the important Biblical lands, starting with  Patriarch Abraham's homeland. However, Hussein said it would be too dangerous for the Pope to enter Iraq.

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I don't think the Muslims would've been terribly offended if the Pope respectfully accepted the book, maybe even opened it up and looked at it appreciatively, without kissing it.  

And I was under the impression (perhaps mistaken) that the Pope never got to visit Iraq.  I thought I remembered reading that a delegation from Iraq had to visit the Vatican since he wasn't able to travel there, and they did some stuff in Rome, and it was in this context that the incident happened.  When did the Pope visit Iraq?  
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« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2004, 12:31:26 PM »

In Christianity any "revelation" that comes and denies Christ is demonic.  There is also evidence to suggest "Allah" comes from combining several pre-Islamic Arab deities.  Look no further than Saint Augustine who calles the pagan "gods" demons - are he and I in the same terrorist cell?

As mentioned in the past history of this thread, it is allowable theological opinion for the Christian to hold or believe that Muslims worship a false god (and yes Islam is a synthesis of many elements, including pagan)--without implicating the name of God in this issue in order to support that point.  Nektarios used a lower-case 'a' in a previous post, which does not make his statement offensive.

But the topic of the Arabic name's origins and proper use has been violently addressed and re-addressed in previous threads, wherein I already presented hypotheses on the matter.  Fact remains that 'Allah' remains a holy name, used by pre-Islamic-era Christian Arabs, and should never be attacked, and so I request again that listmembers conduct themselves properly and carefully when employing the name 'Allah', and not flirt with this sensitive topic and start a repetition of the arguments that have been already been beaten to death.  The list's archives are available for the inquirer.  The case for the identity of W/whom (depending on your belief) Muslims worship is always open for discussion and exploration, but this rests on points of theology, not on etymology, the latter crossing into territory that is Christian as well as Muslim.

Stavro is right about the phrase 'Allahu Akbar', which in its literal translation, would mean 'God is greater', not 'great'.  Bop the next translator who uses the conventional translation in news reports.

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« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2004, 12:58:15 PM »

I am amazed that no RC has really come out here and condemned what the Pope did in kissing the Koran or Quran (or whatever this week's spelling of that book's name is).

It really makes me wonder about the wisdom of placing all of one's religious eggs so thoroughly in one very human basket.

If someone wants to find things done wrong by various Orthodox bishops, I think he will surprised that the Orthodox would join him in condemning those things. We believe in obeying our bishops, but only when they are not obviously contradicting the Apostolic Tradition and betraying the faith.

I agree with Anastasios when he wrote that the Pope should have just admitted that he made a mistake.

I think we would all respect that.
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« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2004, 01:04:17 PM »

When the Buddhist monk did that the RC's immediately ran over and took it down. Also, read the Pope's speech at Assissi.  He told the leaders of all religions that peace would only come from Christ.

anastasios

I am relieved to hear that.

Why invite unrepentant Buddhists in the first place?

Can one imagine St. Peter conducting some sort of "ecumenical" prayer service and inviting the leaders of the various pagan cults of his day?

I can't.
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« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2004, 01:07:48 PM »

Linus,

But Paul preached in the Acropolis to the leading pagans of his day.  I think getting those fellows there all in once place and then preaching Christ was a good idea.  We can see that it didn't have much effect though, so the repeat "Assissi 2" *was* unnecessary.

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« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2004, 01:08:51 PM »

Of course I agree the Pope's action was scandalous and a grave mistake.  No apologies need be made about thinking so.

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« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2004, 01:18:53 PM »

Linus,

But Paul preached in the Acropolis to the leading pagans of his day.  I think getting those fellows there all in once place and then preaching Christ was a good idea.  We can see that it didn't have much effect though, so the repeat "Assissi 2" *was* unnecessary.

anastasios

Come on, anastasios.

How can one possibly equate St. Paul's evangelistic efforts with the sort of sappy ecumenism that occurs at gatherings like the one is Assisi?

Did St. Paul pray with the pagan leaders of his day and stand by while they invoked their gods?

Did he appear in concert with them as if the Way of Christ was just one alternative among many?

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« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2004, 01:31:17 PM »

Well, I'll weigh in as a Catholic.  I think it was a bad idea, it has caused scandal.  However, Catholics accept Muslims as children of Abraham, and worshipers of the one true God, albeit it in a defective way.  The kiss was meant as a sign of this belief and respect for Muslims not an endorsement of Isalm itself.  However, given the kissing of the Altar, the Gospel, Icons and each other is a liturgical act it should not have been done because of the confusion it creates.  

However, I do not think anyone other than this forum, the SSPX, Sedevacantists, and the Fundamentalist "the Pope is the antichrist" crowd has raised a stink about it so the Pope is probably unaware there is scandal over it or that anyone wants a public apology for it.

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« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2004, 01:55:30 PM »

Linus,

I think the issue here is, DID the Buddhists pray to Buddha? Did the Muslims pray to Allah? Does anyone have any texts from Assisi?  Maybe we should examine what really went on there.

I think it took a lot of guts for JP2 to preach Christ to pagans.  Hardly syncretistic.  However, as I said before, such a meeting didn't seem to have any effect so there was no need for "Assisi 2"

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« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2004, 01:58:11 PM »

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However, Catholics accept Muslims as children of Abraham, and worshipers of the one true God, albeit it in a defective way

From the Koran:

"O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is better for you!) - Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son...The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah."
 
"And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! The folk laugh out, and say: Are our gods better, or is he? They raise not the objection save for argument. Nay! but they are a contentious folk. He is nothing but a slave on whom we bestowed favor, and we made him a pattern for the Children of Israel. And had we willed it we would have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth".
 
"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah. But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. ... And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them." (Koran, 4:156-159)

From the Word of God:

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me' " (John 14:6).

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also" (1 John 2:22-23).

"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it" (John 8:42-44).

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« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2004, 02:06:53 PM »

Linus,

I think the issue here is, DID the Buddhists pray to Buddha? Did the Muslims pray to Allah? Does anyone have any texts from Assisi?  Maybe we should examine what really went on there.

I think it took a lot of guts for JP2 to preach Christ to pagans.  Hardly syncretistic.  However, as I said before, such a meeting didn't seem to have any effect so there was no need for "Assisi 2"

anastasios

I think you are really stretching here to excuse the inexcusable.

Did the Buddhists pray to Buddha? Did the Muslims pray to Allah?

If they are invited to an ecumenical service and to pray, and they do appear to be praying, to whom are we to suppose that they are praying?

Can we read their minds?

Ecumenical services like Assisi are not designed to evangelize the pagans. If they were, the pagans would be seated in the audience, listening. They would be told to repent and be baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Is that what they were told?

Ecumenical events feature the leaders of various world religions acting together as if equals and representatives of equally valid paths to the ill-defined "truth."

It is my personal opinion that they serve only to pave the way for the Antichrist.
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« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2004, 02:17:35 PM »

Religious "relativism"? Now THAT'S an un-Orthodox concept!

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« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2004, 02:39:33 PM »

Linus,

Did they offer prayers at all?  I am asking, not stretching.  From your postings it is clear that you don't have any concrete facts as to what went on at Assisi.  So all I am saying is, let's get the program and analyze what went on.  I am not trying to excuse the unexcusable--that's silly as I have not said Assisi was a good thing--in fact, I clearly said the result was failure! Really, sometimes you push ideas onto other people that they don't subscribe to, and that's not good.

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« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2004, 02:41:08 PM »

I just read what you write, anastasios.

Maybe it's not as clear as you think it is.
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« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2004, 02:43:17 PM »

Here is what the Pope actually said:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1986/october/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19861027_prayer-peace-assisi-final_en.html

PASTORAL VISIT TO PERUGIA AND ASSISI

ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES AND ECCLESIAL COMMUNITIES
AND OF THE WORLD RELIGIONS

Basilica of Saint Francis
27 October 1986

 

My Brothers and Sisters,
Heads and Representatives of the Christian Churches
and Ecclesial Communities and of the World Religions,
Dear Friends,

1. IN CONCLUDING this World Day of Prayer for Peace, to which you have come from many parts of the world, kindly accepting my invitation, I would like now to express my feelings, as a brother and friend, but also as a believer in Jesus Christ, and, in the Catholic Church, the first witness of faith in him.

In relation to the last prayer, the Christian one, in the series we have all heard, I profess here anew my conviction, shared by all Christians, that in Jesus Christ, as Saviour of all, true peace is to be found, "peace to those who are far off and peace to those who are near". His birth was greeted by the angels’ song: "Glory to God in the highest and peace among men with whom he is pleased". He preached love among all, even among foes, proclaimed blessed those who work for peace and through his Death and Resurrection he brought about reconciliation between heaven and earth. To use an expression of Paul the Apostle: "He is our peace".

2. It is, in fact, my faith conviction which has made me turn to you, representatives of the Christian Churches and Ecclesial Communities and World Religions, in deep love and respect.

With the other Christians we share many convictions and, particularly, in what concerns peace.
With the World Religions we share a common respect of and obedience to conscience, which teaches all of us to seek the truth, to love and serve all individuals and people, and therefore to make peace among nations.

Yes, we all hold conscience and obedience to the voice of conscience to be an essential element in the road towards a better and peaceful world.

Could it be otherwise, since all men and women in this world have a common nature, a common origin and a common destiny?

If there are many and important differences among us, there is also a common ground, whence to operate together in the solution of this dramatic challenge of our age: true peace or catastrophic war?

3. Yes, there is the dimension of prayer, which in the very real diversity of religions tries to express communication with a Power above all our human forces.

Peace depends basically on this Power, which we call God, and as Christians believe has revealed himself in Christ.

This is the meaning of this World Day of Prayer.

For the first time in history, we have come together from every where, Christian Churches and Ecclesial Communities, and World Religions, in this sacred place dedicated to Saint Francis, to witness before the world, each according to his own conviction, about the transcendent quality of peace.

The form and content of our prayers are very different, as we have seen, and there can be no question of reducing them to a kind of common denominator.

4. Yes, in this very difference we have perhaps discovered anew that, regarding the problem of peace and its relation to religious commitment, there is something which binds us together.

The challenge of peace, as it is presently posed to every human conscience, is the problem of a reasonable quality of life for all, the problem of survival for humanity, the problem of life and death.
In the face of such a problem, two things seem to have supreme importance and both of them are common to us all.

The first is the inner imperative of the moral conscience, which enjoins us to respect, protect and promote human life, from the womb to the deathbed, for individuals and peoples, but especially for the weak, the destitute, the derelict: the imperative to overcome selfishness, greed and the spirit of vengeance.

The second common thing is the conviction that peace goes much beyond human efforts, particularly in the present plight of the world, and therefore that its source and realization is to be sought in that Reality beyond all of us.

This is why each of us prays for peace. Even if we think, as we do, that the relation between that Reality and the gift of peace is a different one, according to our respective religious convictions, we all affirm that such a relation exists.

This is what we express by praying for it.

I humbly repeat here my own conviction: peace bears the name of Jesus Christ.

5. But, at the same time and in the same breath, I am ready to acknowledge that Catholics have not always been faithful to this affirmation of faith. We have not been always "peacemakers".

For ourselves, therefore, but also perhaps, in a sense, for all, his encounter at Assisi is an act of penance. We have prayed, each in his own way, we have fasted, we have marched together.
In this way we have tried to open our hearts to the divine reality beyond us and to our fellow men and women.

Yes, while we have fasted, we have kept in mind the sufferings which senseless wars have brought about and are still bringing about on humanity. Thereby we have tried to be spiritually close to the millions who are the victims of hunger throughout the world.

While we have walked in silence, we have reflected on the path our human family treads: either in hostility, if we fail to accept one another in love; or as a common journey to our lofty destiny, if we realize that other people are our brothers and sisters. The very fact that we have come to Assisi from various quarters of the world is in itself a sign of this common path which humanity is called to tread. Either we learn to walk together in peace and harmony, or we drift apart and ruin ourselves and others. We hope that this pilgrimage to Assisi has taught us anew to be aware of the common origin and common destiny of humanity. Let us see in it an anticipation of what God would like the developing history of humanity to be: a fraternal journey in which we accompany one another towards the transcendent goal which he sets for us.

Prayer, fasting, pilgrimage.

6. This Day at Assisi has helped us become more aware of our religious commitments. But is has also made the world, looking at us through the media, more aware of the responsibility of each religion regarding problems of war and peace.

More perhaps than ever before in history, the intrinsic link between an authentic religious attitude and the great good of peace has become evident to all.

What a tremendous weight for human shoulders to carry! But at the same time what a marvellous, exhilarating call to follow.

Although prayer is in itself action, this does not excuse us from working for peace. Here we are acting as the heralds of the moral awareness of humanity as such, humanity that wants peace, needs peace.

7. There is no peace without a passionate love for peace. There is no peace without a relentless determination to achieve peace.

Peace awaits its prophets. Together we have filled our eyes with visions of peace: they release energies for a new language of peace, for new gestures of peace, gestures which will shatter the fatal chains of divisions inherited from history or spawned by modern ideologies.

Peace awaits its builders. Let us stretch our hands towards our brothers and sisters, to encourage them to build peace upon the four pillars of truth, justice, love and freedom.

Peace is a workshop, open to all and not just to specialists, savants and strategists. Peace is a universal responsibility: it comes about through a thousand little acts in daily life. By their daily way of living with others, people choose for or against peace. We entrust the cause of peace especially to the young. May young people help to free history from the wrong paths along which humanity strays.
Peace is in the hands not only of individuals but of nations. It is the nations that have the honour of basing their peacemaking activity upon the conviction of the sacredness of human dignity and the recognition of the unquestionable equality of people with one another. We earnestly invite the leaders of the nations and of the international organizations to be untiring in bringing in structures of dialogue wherever peace is under threat or already compromised. We offer our support to their often exhausting efforts to maintain or restore pea+ô. We renew our encouragement to the United Nations Organization, that it may respond fully to the breadth and height of its universal mission of peace.

8. In answer to the appeal I made from Lyons in France, on the day which we Catholics celebrate as the feast of Saint Francis, we hope that arms have fallen silent, that attacks have ceased. This would be a first significant result of the spiritual efficacy of prayer. In fact, this appeal has been shared by many hearts and lips everywhere in the world, especially where people suffer from war and its consequences. It is vital to choose peace and the means to obtain it. Peace, so frail in health, demands constant and intensive care. Along this path, we shall advance with sure and redoubled steps, for there is no doubt that people have and never had so many means for building true peace as today. Humanity has entered an era of increased solidarity and hunger for social justice. This is our chance. It is also our task, which prayer helps us to face.

9. What we have done today at Assisi, praying and witnessing to our commitment to peace, we must continue to do every day of our life. For what we have done today’s is vital for the world. If the world is going to continue, and men and women are to survive in it, the world cannot do without prayer.

This is the permanent lesson of Assisi: it is the lesson of Saint Francis who embodied an attractive ideal for us; it is the lesson of Saint Clare, his first follower. It is an ideal composed of meekness, humility, a deep sense of God and a commitment to serve all. Saint Francis was a man of peace.

We recall that he abandoned the military career he had followed for a while in his youth, and discovered the value of poverty, the value of a simple and austere life, in imitation of Jesus Christ whom he intended to serve. Saint Clare was the woman, par excellence, of prayer. Her union with God in prayer sustained Francis and his followers, as it sustains us today. Francis and Clare are examples of peace: with God, with oneself, with all men and women in this world. May this holy man and this holy woman inspire all people today to have the same strength of character and love of God and neighbour to continue on the path we must walk together.

10. Mossi dall’esempio di san Francesco e di santa Chiara, veri discepoli di Cristo, e convinti dall’esperienza di questo giorno che abbiamo vissuto insieme, noi ci impegniamo a riesaminare le nostre coscienze, ad ascoltare pi+¦ fedelmente la loro voce, a purificare i nostri spiriti dal pregiudizio, dall’odio, dall’inimicizia, dalla gelosia e dall’invidia. Cercheremo di essere operatori di pace nel pensiero e nell’azione, con la mente e col cuore rivolti all’unit+á della famiglia umana. E invitiamo tutti i nostri fratelli e sorelle che ci ascoltano perch+¬ facciano lo stesso.

Lo facciamo con la consapevolezza dei nostri limiti umani e consci del fatto che, lasciati a noi stessi, falliremmo. Riaffermiamo quindi e riconosciamo che la nostra vita e la nostra pace futura dipendono sempre da un dono che Dio ci fa.

In questo spirito, invitiamo i leaders mondiali a prender atto della nostra umile implorazione a Dio per la pace. Ma chiediamo pure ad essi di riconoscere le loro responsabilit+á e di dedicarsi con rinnovato impegno al compito della pace, a porre in atto le strategie della pace con coraggio e lungimiranza.

11. Consentitemi ora di rivolgermi a ciascuno di voi, rappresentanti delle Chiese cristiane e delle comunit+á ecclesiali e delle religioni mondiali, che siete venuti ad Assisi per questo giorno di preghiera, di digiuno e di pellegrinaggio. Vi ringrazio nuovamente per aver accettato il mio invito a venire qui per questo atto di testimonianza davanti al mondo. Estendo pure il mio ringraziamento a tutti coloro che hanno reso possibile la nostra presenza qui, particolarmente ai nostri fratelli e sorelle di Assisi.

E soprattutto rendo grazie a Dio e Padre di Ges+¦ Cristo per questo giorno di grazia per il mondo, per ciascuno di voi, e per me stesso. Lo faccio invocando la vergine Maria, regina della pace. Lo faccio con le parole della preghiera che +¿ comunemente attribuita a san Francesco, perch+¬ ben ne rispecchia lo spirito: “Signore, fa’ di me uno strumento / della tua pace: / dove +¿ odio, ch’io porti l’amore, / dove +¿ offesa, ch’io porti il perdono, / dove +¿ discordia, ch’io porti l’unione, / dove +¿ dubbio, ch’io porti la fede, / dove +¿ errore, ch’io porti la verit+á, / dove +¿ disperazione, ch’io porti la speranza, / dove +¿ tristezza, ch’io porti la gioia, / dove sono le tenebre, ch’io porti la luce. / Maestro, fa’ che io non miri tanto: / ad essere consolato, quanto / a consolare, / ad essere compreso, quanto / a comprendere, / ad essere amato, quanto / ad amare: / poich+¬ donando si riceve, / perdonando si +¿ perdonati, / morendo si risuscita a vita eterna”.

Greetings in other languages:

A TOUTES les hautes personnalit+¬s pr+¬sentes et +á tous ceux qui se sont associ+¬s +á cette initiative de pri+¿re, j’adresse un salut fraternel et un message d’esp+¬rance: la paix est possible, si tous les hommes veulent progresser dans la v+¬rit+¬, fondement de la paix.

Pour la premi+¿re fois sans doute dans l’histoire humaine, Eglises chr+¬tiennes et religions de toutes les parties du monde se sont r+¬unies en un m+¬me lieu pour montrer que la paix est un imp+¬ratif de la conscience des croyants engag+¬s dans la recherche de la v+¬rit+¬ sur Dieu, sur notre destin+¬e, sur l’histoire le l’humanit+¬.

J’invite tous les hommes de bonne volont+¬ +á s’engager avec une g+¬n+¬rosit+¬ renouvel+¬e pour la promotion de la paix.

Deseo presentar mi m+ís cordial saludo, junto con mi vivo agradecimiento, a todas las personas que desde aqu+¡ o desde cualquier parte del mundo han querido asociarse a esta Jornada Mundial de Oraci+¦n por la Paz.

Hago votos y aliento a todos a un renovado compromiso a ser constructores de paz entre las naciones, entre los pueblos, en las sociedades, en las familias, en los corazones y en la conciencia de cada uno.

Agrade+ºo a todas as pessoas que, de uma ou de outra forma, se associaram conosco a - esta iniciativa de ora+º+úo. Cada um se sinta pessoalmente empenhado em ser testemunha da - paz e pacificador dos homens, e compromissado com a realiza+º+úo de uma sociedade mais fraterna.

Aufrichting danke ich allen, die sich nah und fern, einzeln oder in Gemeinschaft, unserem heutigen Gebet f++r den Frieden in der Welt angeschlossen haben. Ich ermutige euch, darin auch in Zukunft nicht nachzulassen und im Geiste Jesus Christi in der eigenen Familie, im Beruf und im Leben der Gesellschaft selber immer mehr zu Friedensstiftern zu werden. Der Friede Christi sei mit euch allen!

         
 
 
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« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2004, 02:44:18 PM »

I just read what you write, anastasios.

Maybe it's not as clear as you think it is.

Perhaps, or perhaps you are just not reading it clearly.  I call for the facts to be clear before we go off attacking something.  I said that Assisi was a failure but when it happened it wasn't such a bad idea.  That's not supporting it.  You saying I did was putting words in my mouth.

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« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2004, 02:44:52 PM »

I think reading an account of the prcoeedings at Assisi is a good idea.

Can someone supply a link?


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« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2004, 02:47:28 PM »

Perhaps, or perhaps you are just not reading it clearly.  I call for the facts to be clear before we go off attacking something.  I said that Assisi was a failure but when it happened it wasn't such a bad idea.  That's not supporting it.  You saying I did was putting words in my mouth.

anastasios

Who's putting words in whose mouth?

Did I say you supported Assisi?

I said you were stretching to excuse the inexcusable. And that was what I derived from the content of your posts.

And I doubt that I am the only one.

Do you seriously think no praying occurred at Assisi?
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« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2004, 04:03:56 PM »

IMO,

I don't think anyone can explain the event, except the parties who were present.

All we have here is speculation & assumptions.

Can you tell me what was in the hearts of the participants ? What was the intent of their actions ?

I for one will not fling insults, judgements years after the fact.

What is next for speculation ? Lets judge all by their negative actions & forget the positive.

So I spend my time researching a negative action done by the Eastern Church Hierarchy to even the score ? I think not, at least not by me.


Too much pharisaism for me,

Peace in Christ,

james
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« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2004, 07:16:40 PM »

However, Catholics accept Muslims as children of Abraham, and worshipers of the one true God, albeit it in a defective way.  The kiss was meant as a sign of this belief and respect for Muslims not an endorsement of Isalm itself.  However, given the kissing of the Altar, the Gospel, Icons and each other is a liturgical act it should not have been done because of the confusion it creates.

    Slava Isuzu Christu. Forgive me deacon if I seem "uneducated" (as I have not taken theology or what have you), but I have to disagree with that assertation. Was it not within the last century that the hierarchy of the Church began to support the idea that Islamists/Muslims were children of Abraham?

     I firmly believe that it was meant as a sign of respect, but respect a book that has pushed people to persecute our ancestors and forebearers (along with their cursed Shariah laws and Haddith)? Our forebearers of holy Constantinople, in the Balkans, in the Middle East (before the Muslim religion appeared in those areas), and in regions in the West as well? Why are they suddenly neglected and Muslims now accepted as "true believers"?

     However, I agree that these things are probably not causing a scandal in the real world (with very few exceptions).

--Ben
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« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2004, 07:41:53 PM »

As usualy, Stavro, you are a wealth of information. I was aware of the early history here, but not the tie-ins in the Quran. I have two translations of that book and do sometimes read a verse or so; but I just can't bring myself to read the whole thing.
Thanks, again.
Demetri
Thank you for your words, brother, I was adding a humble contribution to a topic already rich with very educated posts.
Problem with reading the Quran and Haddith and the commentary books is that it might defile your mind, and makes one sometimes loose the inner peace.

Pray for me.
Peace,
Stavro
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« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2004, 07:42:52 PM »

Linus, et al, is this the best Orthodoxy has to offer?

What on earth could anything anybody said here make me want to make the swim!? Think about what you write. Think about how things looks to outsiders. Wash the cup, inside and out.

All I have seen here is more internet intransigence. I don't know what you were trying to prove, but thanks, I am even more deeply convicted of my Faith.

As the black boy on South Park once said, "that's it. I'm OUT!"
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