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Nigula Qian Zishi
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« on: October 10, 2002, 10:33:43 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

The following was copied from http://wwwOrthodoxInfo.com and pasted here just for fun. I'd be interested in seeing scores and seeing peoples' thoughts on the test. I take no resposibility for the accuracy test, or its way of rating modernism. God Bless!

...A short test that anyone can use to see if their parish/jurisdiction is modernist. Just answer the following "yes or no" questions and tally up the score. Give yourself one point for each "yes" answer and zero for each "no."

The Modernism Test:

1. Does your Church have pews?
2. Does your Church have an organ?
3. Does your Priest not have a beard?
4. Do most of the Priests in your jurisdiction not have beards?
5. Are any of your Bishops clean shaven?
6. Does your Priest have short hair?
7. Do you use electric vigil lamps in your Church?
8. Does your Priest keep the Royal Doors open throughout the Divine Liturgy (until after the "Our Father)?
9. Does your Iconostasis not have a curtain? or, Does your Priest not close the curtain after the Great Entrance?
10. Does your Priest go straight from the Augmented Litany (after the Gospel) to the Cherubic hymn (skipping the litanies for the catechumens and faithful)?
11. Does your Priest appear in public wearing a "clergy shirt" and "ecclesiastical collar"?
12. Does your Priest appear in public in completely civilian clothes?
13. Does your Bishop (or any of the Bishops in your jurisdiction) appear in public in a suit?
14. Does your Priest not serve an All-Night Vigil or Vespers every Saturday night?
15. Does your jurisdiction permit the ordination of a twice-married man to the diaconate or Priesthood?
16. Does your Priest or any clergy of your jurisdiction smoke in public?
17. Does your parish follow the New Calendar (meaning, are all the immovable Feasts celebrated according to the Gregorian Calendar)?
18. Are the majority of parishes in your jurisdiction New Calendar (euphemistically referred to as the "Revised Julian Calendar")?
19. Has your Church Higher authority not officially condemned Freemasonry as incompatible with Orthodoxy?
20. Do any of the women in your parish attend church in slacks or pant-suits?
21. Do most of the women in your parish come to church with their heads uncovered?
22. Does your church practice "General Confession"?
23. Is private confession not generally required before receiving Holy Communion?
24. Do monastic clergy not comprise a significant percentage (greater than, say, 10%) of all your clergy?
25. Is your Church Bingo sign larger than the sign with the name of the Church?
26. Does your parish not follow the traditional rules of fasting? Or, does your Priest condone a mitigation of fasting with teachings such as "try to abstain from meat on Wednesdays and Fridays during Lent"?
27. Do the clergy in your jurisdiction attach a great deal of importance to being a part of "canonical Orthodoxy"?
28. Is the keeping of the traditions of the Church often referred to as "legalism"?
29. Does your Priest kneel on Sundays? Does he allow others in the parish to kneel on Sundays? (In some modernist churches the entire congregation kneels during the highpoint of the Anaphora.)
30. Does your Priest serve Vesperal Divine Liturgies on days in which it is not appointed in the Typikon?
31. Are converts in your parish not expected to use their Baptismal name at all timesùin and out of church?
32. Has your Priest not adopted an Orthodox nameùi.e., of a Saintùor does he call himself by familiar American names such as Fr. Jack or Fr. Bob? Does his wife not go by the traditional title of "Matushka," "Khouria," or "Presbytera"? Or does she prefer "Babs," "Sally," or some other familiar name?
33. Does your Priest give out the antidoron to non-Orthodox?
34. Does a reading of the Prayers of Thanksgiving for Holy Communion not follow after the end of Divine Liturgy?
35. Does your Priest or Bishop encourage the congregation to lift their hands during the anaphora?
36. At the "Kiss of Peace" during the Divine Liturgy, does the Priest pause the service to allow parishioners to greet those around them, either by handshake or embrace?
38. Does your Priest read out loud all of the secret prayers during the Liturgy?
39. Does your Priest serve Holy Communion with plastic spoons?
40. Does your Priest encourage attendance at, or support, local ecumenical events that involve common prayer with heterodox Christians?
41. Are most of the converts to Orthodoxy in your parish received by Chrismation instead of Baptism?
42. Does your Priest commemorate the names of non-Orthodox during the litanies?
43. Does your jurisdiction allow weddings on Saturdays or during fasting periods?
44. Does your Priest serve panikhidas on Sunday?

Scoring:

1 point for each "yes"
0 points for each "no"

Less than 3 points: your church is not "modernist"
3 - 5 points: your church is slightly "modernist"
6 - 10 points: your church is quite "modernist"
Greater than 10 points: your church is extremely "modernist"
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2002, 11:09:36 PM »

When I took the OrthodoxInfo Modernism Test, I was doing fine.  I wasn't a modernist.  Then I reached question nine, and realised that I had scored as a Monophysite.  

Just kidding...
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2002, 11:21:21 PM »

19 points for my "extremely modernist" RUSSIAN ORTHODOX OCA parish!  I'm aghast, for our priest does all the opening and closing of the Holy Doors and drawing of the curtain during Divine Liturgy!

1.  Yes, we have pews.
3.  Beardless priest.
6.  Short-haired priest.
11. Priest appears in public wearing a "clergy shirt" and "ecclesiastical collar."
17. Parish follows the New Calendar.
18. A majority of the parishes in my jurisdiction follow the New Calendar, with the notable exception of the Russian Orthodox Diocese of Alaska.
20. Some women (surprisingly, the elderly ones) attend church in slacks or pant-suits.
21. Most women, even the most recent Russian immigrants, come to church with heads uncovered.
22. "General Confession" *is* held, but only twice a year: on Great and Holy Saturday and on the last Saturday of the Nativity Fast before Great Vespers.
24. I don't have statistics, but I would say that monastic clergy comprise less than 10% of all our clergy.
27. *SOME* clergy (but by no means all!) do attach a great deal of importance to being a part of "canonical Orthodoxy" in contrast with "vagante-ism."
28. Again, *SOME* clergy (a minority, I think) often refer to the keeping of the traditions as a "legalism."
29. Outside of the Paschal Time, the priest kneels on Sunday during the "Our Father" of the Divine Liturgy.  He does allow others to kneel on Sundays (outside of Paschal Time) as well.  (Some do kneel during the "high point" of the Anaphora and even during the entire Cherubic Hymn.)
31. No particular emphasis on whether one uses his/her Baptismal name at all times-- both inside and outside of church.
33.  No one checks to ensure that Antidoron is not given out to the non-Orthodox.
34. No public reading of Thanksgiving Prayers for Holy Communion after Liturgy in this parish (*but* this WAS done in the two other OCA parishes to which I have belonged).
41. I haven't seen many converts received in this parish, but the few that were, were received by Chrismation rather than Baptism (same at the GOA cathedral two blocks away).
42. Priest doesn't differentiate between the names of the Orthodox and the non-Orthodox during the litanies (even though I clearly indicate that such-and-such a person is non-Orthodox on my prosphoron petition list "For the health and salvation of...").
44.  Priest serves Panikhidas regularly on Sundays following Divine Liturgy.

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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2002, 11:59:35 PM »

My parish got a 22.

I didn't answer a couple such as weddings because the last one was more than 5 years ago and I don't know if it was in a fasting period.

Most of the priests in my eparchy smoke. Many are from Ukraine though...........

Got pews, priest has a mustache and sports ralph lauren polo shirts, some times tommy hilfiger, and chaps khaki pants in public, bishops (yeah got 2, actually one retired and one apostolic administrator **guess what eparchy i am in for 2 point;)**) clean shaven, new calendar, see through iconostas with no curtain, no vespers, and panakhydas on Sundays.

Other than that, we are pretty traditional Cheesy

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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2002, 12:15:39 AM »



  I hate these kinds of tests "I am more Orthodox then Thou"

  We ALL are Orthodox, praxis differs in Jurusdiction but belief remains the same-


      I take this as tongue in cheek although my OCA Diocese of the West  parish although very traditional would be considered slightly to mostly "modernist (whatever that really means"  by these standards.


                                         Brian
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2002, 12:39:41 AM »

I have a few issues with this modernism test.

12. Does your Priest appear in public in completely civilian clothes?

Many priests that I know have secular jobs to support themselves because their parish cannot.  For instance, my priest used to a psychologist in the state prison system, I highly doubt that they would allow him to work there in his raissa and Orthodox clothing.  Come on.

20. Do any of the women in your parish attend church in slacks or pant-suits?

We live in a different era now and many women do not wear skirts or dresses anymore.  In fact, the way that many women dress in society today compared to 50 years ago is a lot less modest.  Also, our American society has become a casual society.   I wish that more women would were dresses and skirts(like the Mennonites) Wink  However, if a man expresses an opinion like I just did and says that women should were dresses to church, he is called a prude and backwards by many women.  I wish that other women in the church would hold accountable their fellow sisters accountable as to how they dress.  Of course, one can say that is not what the person wears but where their heart is during the Divine Liturgy, but I believe the way you dress does affect the way you feel.    

36. At the "Kiss of Peace" during the Divine Liturgy, does the Priest pause the service to allow parishioners to greet those around them, either by handshake or embrace?


Can someone please tell me of an Orthodox church that does this?  This sounds like a Protestant innovation as I have seen it done there.  

I could go on and on here but I won't.  I also do not like  these kind tests as to who is more Orthodox or more correct Orthodox.  These tests do nothing to help one enter into the kingdom of Heaven.  According to the logic of this test my priest could have a beard and long hair and still be considered "traditional" despite watching  South Park every night.  It is very possible to score as a traditionalist parish yet the parish could be far away from Christ.  Some questions I would like to have seen are "does your priest encourage you  to give to the poor, visit the sick and widows, give alms to the church?" Or better "does your church collect food for the poor and needy or collect money to give to charity?"  But then again, these questions wouldn't satisfy the purpose of a survey such as this which was to show who is more Orthodox than thou.  I know I rambled on here, more than I should have, please forgive me.


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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2002, 12:43:45 AM »

sinjinsmythe,

I agree. I have particular issues myself with:

Quote
20. Do any of the women in your parish attend church in slacks or pant-suits?

I mean come on, American fashion(world fashion even) dictates that formal dress for women is usually pants or slacks. Plus there are quite a few women I probably wouldn't want to see with a skirt on.

Furthermore, it seems rather cultish to me to enforce a skirt/dress dress-code upon people.


Just my opinionz,
Bobby



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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2002, 12:58:30 AM »

Here is another question I would like to ask the person who concocted this survey to answer:

Which would you rather see in your church: a woman in wearing slacks/pants Shocked or a women wearing skirt that is rather short?
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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2002, 01:03:08 AM »

Now Mr. Bond, Have you stopped beating your wife?  I'd rather see women and men dress modestly.  Your options aren't quite fair are they?

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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2002, 01:09:10 AM »

I agree with you Dan.  I was just trying to make a point.
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2002, 01:14:01 AM »

36. At the "Kiss of Peace" during the Divine Liturgy, does the Priest pause the service to allow parishioners to greet those around them, either by handshake or embrace?


Can someone please tell me of an Orthodox church that does this?  This sounds like a Protestant innovation as I have seen it done there.  

Yes, we have this tradition and still practice it. There is no embrace or handshake though. We simply bow to everyone in front of us , to each side and in the back. I agree with your criticism of this test though, you hit the nail right on the head.
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2002, 01:15:45 AM »

I agree with you Dan.  I was just trying to make a point.

It's a tough question, trade-offs for either.


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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2002, 03:52:10 AM »

Well, here priests were civilian clothes because before 1992 the communist law forbid all kind of priests to wear clerical vestments outside their parishes, and to wear crosses too.

The Law was not very much enforced but most priests tried not to have problems, I have seen Orthodox priests and deacons, from the AOC here, wearong a "clerical" suit similar to that used by Roman Bishops. There's also one thing, there are monks from the Ascension Cathedral in Mexico City, who are working priests because the Church is very poor. I don't know if they wear their clerical vestments while working. Grin

The parishes do have the kiss of peace and people greet themselves and shake hands and all that stuff, but it's very reverent and never like in the Roman parishes here.

Converts are generally received through Confession and Profession of Faith if they were propperly baptized and chrismated in the Catholic Church, but young people through Chrismation because now the RC denies chrismation to babies, so most young people weren't chrismated, and converts from Catholicism are NEVER received through Baptism.

I'm surprised to hear that in USA Catholic converts are re-baptized, as the Catholics did in Croatia, with our Serbian brothers. And we believe in One Baptism.
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Nigula Qian Zishi
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2002, 02:47:06 PM »

We live in a different era now and many women do not wear skirts or dresses anymore.  In fact, the way that many women dress in society today compared to 50 years ago is a lot less modest.

Surely you aren't suggesting that we let pop culture decide what one wear to Divine Liturgy, are you? We shouldn't let societal standards change us in the least IMO. God Bless!
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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2002, 03:45:05 PM »

Surely you aren't suggesting that we let pop culture decide what one wear to Divine Liturgy, are you? We shouldn't let societal standards change us in the least IMO. God Bless!

No I was not saying that at all, you obviously did not read my entire post.  What I was trying to say is that many women today do not wear skirts/dresses to church they instead were slacks/pants.  Here is what I said before in my post since you missed the entirety of my comments:

We live in a different era now and many women do not wear skirts or dresses anymore.  In fact, the way that many women dress in society today compared to 50 years ago is a lot less modest.  Also, our American society has become a casual society.  I wish that more women would were dresses and skirts(like the Mennonites) Wink  However, if a man expresses an opinion like I just did and says that women should were dresses to church, he is called a prude and backwards by many women.  I wish that other women in the church would hold accountable their fellow sisters accountable as to how they dress.

That is what I said earlier.  Please do not start quoting without reading my entire post first.  Also, about the  lot less modest today, I was not condoning the way many women dress in our society today.  I was merely making an observation that modesty has gone totally out the door.  I wish that modesty would make a come back as there is nothing wrong with being modest.
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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2002, 05:36:26 PM »

Here is another question I would like to ask the person who concocted this survey to answer:

Which would you rather see in your church: a woman in wearing slacks/pants Shocked or a women wearing skirt that is rather short?

A skirt that is rather short, of course!  And, of course, a Russian-style kerchief or mantilla.   Lips Sealed  And now this dirty old man is ducking out the door.

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Nigula Qian Zishi
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2002, 06:05:16 PM »

Dear Sin Jin Smythe,

I didn't mean to offend. Please forgive me. You had said "I have a few issues with this modernism test." and then listed that as one of the issues. I did read the last and thought that you were only saying that you personally object to the women not wearing long skirts, as an opinion only. Again, sorry and God Bless!
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2002, 07:10:24 PM »

That is okay Nicholas.  Sometimes the internet is not the best way of communicating ideas and having discussions.
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2002, 09:34:12 PM »


Surely you aren't suggesting that we let pop culture decide what one wear to Divine Liturgy, are you? We shouldn't let societal standards change us in the least IMO. God Bless!

Is this a matter of "pop culture"?  Or is this just the way things are?  Did women in ages past wear skirts to church because it was modest/pious/holy to do so, or because their societal standards did not allow them to wear pants/slacks?  Can we really say nowadays that women wearing pants is any different?  Why or why not?
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2002, 10:02:48 PM »

Mor,

If I am not mistaken there is a place in the New Testament that forbids females from either entering Church with pants or wearing pants all together. I have not read it for a while but the one who showed me was a Protestant wife of a Pastor of a Protestant Church.
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« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2002, 10:40:36 PM »

Thanks, Aklie.  I didn't know pants were that old, though.
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« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2002, 11:03:24 PM »

Mor,

It doesn’t say ‘pants’ or ‘trousers’ it describes the seams being stitched in a way that is consistent with shorts or pants and says women can’t wear them in the Church (or at all). This may be something that came out of the King James translation (like Dukes, etc. and other Medieval European terminology being used to describe offices of ancient Jerusalem). I have yet to check it in the Amharic version and it may read differently (like other things do).
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