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Author Topic: The Discovered "Seal of the Church of Jerusalem" : Real or Hoax?  (Read 2723 times) Average Rating: 5
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rakovsky
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« on: October 02, 2010, 04:02:18 AM »

Quote
The Messianic Seal of the Church of Jerusalemhttp://www.threemacs.org/themes/jewish/answers.htm



Ephesians 2
  • 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
    15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
    16and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

God has made ONE NEW MAN from TWO distinct parts.... Jewish and Gentile believers in ONE BODY of MESSIAH..  [/size]

Sometimes the use of CAPITALS on websites suggests the author is prone to making EXAGERATED claims.

Anyway:

Quote
A Messianic Seal from the Christian church in ancient Jerusalem has been rediscovered after 2,000 years. This ancient symbol was found on Mount Zion. It is believed to have been created and used by the Jewish believers who called themselves Nazarenes in the first Messianic Church. The Messianic Seal was found etched or inscribed on eight ancient artifacts.


And to what rite does this monk belong?

Quote
They came from Tech Otecus, an elderly monk who lived as a hermit in the Old City of Jerusalem. Otecus said that in the 1960's he had personally excavated about 40 artifacts bearing the Messianic Seal from an ancient grotto located in the immediate vicinity of the Upper Room on Mount Zion.

Schneider photographed eight artifacts which were given to him by Otecus, and showed the pictures to the curator of the Israel Museum. "When he had carefully studied my pictures," Schneider recalled, "the curator immediately promised me that these artifacts and their unique symbol were an important find. He told me that the museum already had seen other artifacts bearing the same three-part symbol from some other sources he did not specify."


The rest is on:
http://www.threemacs.org/themes/jewish/answers.htm
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 04:03:43 AM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2010, 09:22:13 AM »

I don't know.  As I was reading the article, the dial on my BS meter was dancing pretty high in the red.
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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2010, 09:26:40 AM »

WHEN I TYPE IN ALL CAPS PEOPLE TAKE ME SERIOUSLY AND FIND MY ARGUMENTS MORE COMPELLING
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« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2010, 09:53:25 AM »

WHEN I TYPE IN ALL CAPS PEOPLE TAKE ME SERIOUSLY AND FIND MY ARGUMENTS MORE COMPELLING

TELL ME MORE!!!!11!one!!!
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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2010, 11:18:29 AM »

I'm pretty sure it's a hoax! The Star of David symbol, as far as historians and archaeologists know, was not in use in the 1st century. According to wikipedia there is no evidence that it was used by Jews until the 10th century and then only sporadically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David#History_of_the_Shield_of_David

In the 1st century the Menorah was the symbol of Judaism, even the Romans knew that which is why they carried the Menorah back to Rome and melted it down after the destruction of Herod's Temple. The Star of David simply wasn't a part of the Jewish symbols, or religious thought then.

However, that 3 part symbol IS a popular symbol among "Messianic Jews" and and other Evangelical Christians who strongly lean to Messianic theology. I remember TBN once sold some things with that symbol on there and I thinK Zola Levvit did as well. (back in the day when I was really into Zola Levvit etc...of whom I still have respect for as I think he was genuine and really loved Christ.  TBN on the other hand, well . . . . LOL!

Anyways, if this was a real story, it would be plastered all over CNN and Biblical Archaeological Review as it would be the first evidence the Star of David was used that far into Judaism's past. But it's been a long time since I read up on some of this so who knows? But I'm definitely skeptical.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 11:20:47 AM by NorthernPines » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2010, 11:21:23 AM »

WHEN I TYPE IN ALL CAPS PEOPLE TAKE ME SERIOUSLY AND FIND MY ARGUMENTS MORE COMPELLING

I'm convinced! LOL!
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2010, 08:07:58 PM »

Your responses are pretty funny!

Also that's a good point, Northern Pines, that the Star of David didn't about until later.

It is true though that the fish was the earliest Christian symbol, next to the cross, and that the Menorah was the symbol of the Old Testament religion.

I found a better article.

Quote
In 1990, I became acquainted with Tech Oteeoos, a Greek Orthodox monk in his nineties who lived by himself in an... small building in the Old City of Jerusalem. One day, I believe it was on my third visit, Tech Oteeoos showed me, to my absolute amazement, several ancient artifacts which he had excavated at a nearby site, in the vicinity of the building traditionally known as the original church founded by James the Just, the brother of Jesus. Several visits later, the old monk finally lured me into the interior of his... dwelling. It was there that I saw for the first time his collection of about 30 to 40 beautiful and varied pieces, all bearing the three-part symbol.  As I stared at this treasure in wonder, my host carefully selected eight of the pieces which he later, during a subsequent visit, presented to me as a gift.

During a subsequent visit... he took me by the hand and led me to the nearby site where he had personally excavated his entire collection.  The special place was an obviously very old Jewish mikvah located near the Tomb of David. After we had climbed over an unimposing fence, the old man led me down the traditional seven cosmic stairs leading to the place used for ceremonial cleansing.  We proceeded past this place, and entered a catacomb that continued on into the quickly fading light. After what seemed like a short distance, just before the first bend, my ancient monk friend and benefactor was excitedly pointing out his special gift to me on one of the walls, a perfect rendition of the three-part symbol etched into the stone. In my initial excitement, I rushed back to the priests of the monastery to report this incredible find. They rebuffed me, refused to answer my questions about the “Seal” and locked me outside the monastery gate.

The rest of the article is at: http://www.biblesearchers.com/hebrewchurch/synagogue/seal.shtml

Could it just be that the Greek monk made it up as a design on some jars and claimed it was real?

Thanks for the laughs.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:08:50 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 08:50:08 PM »

Tech Oteeoos sounds like an interesting name, to say the least.   Huh
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 10:34:33 PM »

WHEN I TYPE IN ALL CAPS PEOPLE TAKE ME SERIOUSLY AND FIND MY ARGUMENTS MORE COMPELLING

As evidenced by every Evangelical tract I've ever seen.

ALL CAPS AND BOLD REALLY HAMMERS THE POINT HOME

ALL CAPS IN RED MEANS THAT THIS IS A REALLY SERIOUS POINT, MY FRIEND
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2010, 11:59:28 PM »

What I don't understand is the lack of exclamation points!!! Everyone knows that exclamation points convey a sincere zeal that only a true believer can have!!! Here is an example of what one would expect to see from someone who was really guided by the Holy Spirit!!!...

TELL ME MORE!!!!11!one!!!
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2010, 12:41:31 AM »

What I don't understand is the lack of exclamation points!!! Everyone knows that exclamation points convey a sincere zeal that only a true believer can have!!! Here is an example of what one would expect to see from someone who was really guided by the Holy Spirit!!!...

I know what you mean!!! People don't look INSIDE to find a REAL RELATIONSHIP with HIM ALONE!!!
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2010, 01:13:14 AM »

hehe.
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2010, 02:19:51 AM »

WHEN I TYPE IN ALL CAPS PEOPLE TAKE ME SERIOUSLY AND FIND MY ARGUMENTS MORE COMPELLING
IF YOU CAPS ARE COMPELLING, YOU SHOULD TRY THE BIG LETTERS.
THAT'S COMPELLING
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2010, 02:24:13 AM »

You need to be more subtle! Like this!
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2010, 02:31:16 AM »

You need to be more subtle! Like this!
SUBTLE SHMUTTLE!!!SUBTLE SHMUTTLE!!![/color]SUBTLE SHMUTTLE!!!SUBTLE SHMUTTLE!!![/color]SUBTLE SHMUTTLE!!!SUBTLE SHMUTTLE!!![/color]SUBTLE SHMUTTLE!!!SUBTLE SHMUTTLE!!![/color]SUBTLE SHMUTTLE!!!SUBTLE SHMUTTLE!!![/color]
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 02:32:16 AM »

Now that made me laugh out loud!  Grin Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2010, 03:05:31 AM »

Quote
The Messianic Seal of the Church of Jerusalemhttp://www.threemacs.org/themes/jewish/answers.htm



Ephesians 2
  • 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
    15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
    16and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

God has made ONE NEW MAN from TWO distinct parts.... Jewish and Gentile believers in ONE BODY of MESSIAH..  [/size]

Sometimes the use of CAPITALS on websites suggests the author is prone to making EXAGERATED claims.

Anyway:

Quote
A Messianic Seal from the Christian church in ancient Jerusalem has been rediscovered after 2,000 years. This ancient symbol was found on Mount Zion. It is believed to have been created and used by the Jewish believers who called themselves Nazarenes in the first Messianic Church. The Messianic Seal was found etched or inscribed on eight ancient artifacts.


And to what rite does this monk belong?

Quote
They came from Tech Otecus, an elderly monk who lived as a hermit in the Old City of Jerusalem. Otecus said that in the 1960's he had personally excavated about 40 artifacts bearing the Messianic Seal from an ancient grotto located in the immediate vicinity of the Upper Room on Mount Zion.

Schneider photographed eight artifacts which were given to him by Otecus, and showed the pictures to the curator of the Israel Museum. "When he had carefully studied my pictures," Schneider recalled, "the curator immediately promised me that these artifacts and their unique symbol were an important find. He told me that the museum already had seen other artifacts bearing the same three-part symbol from some other sources he did not specify."


The rest is on:
http://www.threemacs.org/themes/jewish/answers.htm

I call fake.

The symbol might be believable if it didn't have the 'Seal of Solomon' on there.

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†NI KA†
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2010, 11:10:42 AM »

Yes, it pretty much depends on whether you believe the monk that he found it instead of just writing it. It also seems to have theological problems- why is the fish(Christianity) pointing downward? The form is vaguely reminiscient of the famous Greek ikon of Christ triumphant standing on the cross, and the cross on top of death-
Christ using
the cross to conquer
death

The symbolism of a menorah(Judaism) using a star of David to triumph over a down-facing fish(Christianity) almost seems anti-Christian.

So at the least, the theology of the symbolism is wrong.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 11:11:23 AM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2011, 03:10:54 PM »

Punch,

You wrote:
I don't know.  As I was reading the article, the dial on my BS meter was dancing pretty high in the red.

Yes, I don't know either if it's real. That's pretty funny about the BS meter.

The reason it seems like it could easily be a hoax, is because the claim's veracity depends on:
(1) the researcher's claim that a single Greek Orthodox monk alleged that he discovered it someplace, and
the claim by the Israeli archeology official that several other samples of such alleged discoveries were shown to him.

(2) Plus its veracity also depends on the mere assumption that
if the monk just found it in a grotto or the vessels were shown to an archeology official that this means:
(A) it was a real archeological object, and
(B) that it was an archeological object from the 1st-3rd centuries AD

(3)Plus, it depends on a conspiracy theory that
(A) the owner of the grotto on Mount Zion by the Upper Room allowed an apparently uneducated Greek monk to personally excavate a huge number of 40 artifacts bearing an extremely rare symbol from there, but that his superior monks try to prevent the public from knowing about it, and
(B) that official Israeli archeological institutions intentionally keep silent about an apparently important archeological find that is used by the pro-Israeli-system wing of Christianity.

In my opinion, it's unlikely to be real because it's unlikely that all the assumptions about the monk's objects are true, and it's also unlikely that every assumption about the objects the official saw are true. I think it's unlikely for example, that an uneducated monk would be the one to undertake a major archeological dig near the Church of the Apostles, for example.

Plus, there is apparently a potential market for archeological hoaxes in the Holy Land. And the same kinds of criticisms about the "James brother of Jesus" ossuary having letters cut into it as a hoax seem applicable here. The Israeli Antiquities Authority, for example, claims that the "James brother of Jesus" ossuary is a hoax.

Not to mention that within the Christian tradition that we have, including comments about heresies, no such archeological symbol exists. Plus, the many archeological finds elsewhere, like the catacombs in Rome, and Christian caves in the Holy Land lack such a symbol.


If it is BS, then the measure of the BS is pretty high, like you said, because based on the discoveries, the symbol has become one of the major symbols of Messianic Judaism or the wing of Christianity supporting the Israrli State, if not both.

For example, it's the symbol of Israel Today Magazine, whose donation advertisement says "support Israel Today in the online media war." My point here is that the symbol is being treated with a high amount of importance.

Peace



NORTHERN PINES:

I agree with you when you write:
Quote
"I'm pretty sure it's a hoax!
Anyways, if this was a real story, it would be plastered all over CNN and Biblical Archaeological Review as it would be the first evidence the Star of David was used that far into Judaism's past. But it's been a long time since I read up on some of this so who knows? But I'm definitely skeptical."

Still, I have some doubt that it's a hoax, because for example it seems unlikely that the Messianic researcher or a Greek monk would outright lie. Except that the monk was an old man, and I can reasonably imagine an uneducated old man making up a "tall tale", so to speak.

Even though you haven't read much in Biblical archeology since then, I highly doubt anything has come up that disproves your conclusion, as my research on the symbol didn't bring up anything that was much more explanatory about the symbol's discovery.

You wrote:
Quote
In the 1st century the Menorah was the symbol of Judaism, even the Romans knew that which is why they carried the Menorah back to Rome and melted it down after the destruction of Herod's Temple.
However, that 3 part symbol IS a popular symbol among "Messianic Jews" and and other Evangelical Christians who strongly lean to Messianic theology.
I remember TBN once sold some things with that symbol on there and I thinK Zola Levvit did as well. (back in the day when I was really into Zola Levvit etc...of whom I still have respect for as I think he was genuine and really loved Christ.  
Wow, that's pretty offensive to the Menorah to bring it back and melt it as a victory symbol.

Yes, I think Zola Levitt loved Christ. Regarding his genuiness, his ministry seems to use hyperbole and strong statements. For example, his claim that "only the Jews" have a right to the land in the Holy Land seems like too an exagerrated, absolutist statement, and he should have understood it as such. For example, I heard that the Old Testament says that the Israelites should allow nonIsraelites to stay in the Holy Land, and treat them well, remembering that the Israelites were once foreigners in Egypt. So it seems that even those non-Israelites can make a claim that the Bible gives them a "civil right" as individuals to their areas among the Israelites, and that this right is consistent with the Israelites' claim to the land.

Thus, Zola's absolutist claim that "only" the Jews have a right to the land, with its corollary that non-Jews have no right to the land, seems to be an inaccurate exagerration at best, and in that sense non-genuine. Although perhaps Zola failed to understand that, in which case he would be genuine.

As you thought, Zola ministries does sell the symbol. The caption underneath in the catalog is:
  • "GRAFTED-IN TRANSFER DECAL
    What does this trio of symbols mean to you?
    Whether you put our unique golden decal on
    your Bible, car window, doorpost, or purse, you
    can be sure to stir curiosities and witnessing
    opportunities with this tribute to light, God,
    and abundant love."

It appears to me that if someone were to read this description, with no outside knowledge about the symbol, they would assume that it was simply a combination of symbols that someone in the Messianic Judaism movement designed as a nice expression combining ideas about Judaism (the menorah), the Star of David (a people, a religion, and/or a political system), and Christianity.

You commented:
Quote
"The Star of David symbol, as far as historians and archaeologists know, was not in use in the 1st century. According to wikipedia there is no evidence that it was used by Jews until the 10th century and then only sporadically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David#History_of_the_Shield_of_David"
The Star of David simply wasn't a part of the Jewish symbols, or religious thought then.

However, in fact Wikipedia says: ", in Israel, there is a stone bearing a hexagram from the arch of a 3–4th century synagogue in the Galilee.[3] A supposed Shield of David has been noted on a Jewish tombstone at Taranto, in Southern Italy, which may date as early as the third century CE.[4]"

So it seems that at most, the archeologists and historians don't know whether or not it was used in the 1st century.

You wrote: "I remember TBN once sold some things with that symbol on there and I thinK Zola Levvit did as well. (back in the day when I was really into Zola Levvit etc...of whom I still have respect for as I think he was genuine and really loved Christ.  TBN on the other hand, well . . . . LOL!"

I believe you that TBN sold the symbol stuff there. On the other hand, I don't know why thinking about whether they are genuine and loved Christ just makes you laugh. - although it is funny that it does Smiley Because in part they have a puffed-up attitude with a royal-looking coat-of-arms as their symbol.

Take care



Biro:

Tech Oteeoos sounds like an interesting name, to say the least.   Huh

I know. It sounds unusual to me for a Greek name, as if "Tech" is a nickname. Plus, there is little information about him on the internet. So it reduces the story's veracity that there was such a Greek monk, especially one who conducted an important archeological dig.

Regards



Saint Iaint,

You wrote:
I call fake.

The symbol might be believable if it didn't have the 'Seal of Solomon' on there.

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

Yes, it seems to be fake, because it seems like an unlikely story that 40 artefacts would be found with this symbol in a small area, when the symbol was unknown in the record of Christian traditions and heresies that have been handed down, as well as beyond publicized archeological records.

If the symbol lacked the Star of David, it would still seem unlikely, because it would just be a menorah with a straight, vertical base connected to an upside-down fish, in which case it would still be an extremely unusual symbol.

I could accept that the menorah's base and the fish's base in the symbol was just a coincidence with a very rare symbol in 1st Judaism.

However, I agree that the fact that the base forms what would become one of the 2 most common symbols related to Judaism at the time it was discovered, suggests a strong connection between the time in which it was discovered and the object's design. That in turn suggests that it was created in the same time period when it was discovered.

By the way, I don't clearly remember seeing anyone else sign letters or message with the symbol:
†IC XC†
†NI KA†

It seems to me that you could have have chosen on your own to use it that way. Smiley

Be good
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 03:23:44 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2011, 03:27:17 AM »

Hey Rakovsky,

I don't think any real monk had anything to do w/ this...

The star was around back then (1st century)... but its origins are older.

It found its way into 'Judaism' when Solomon was up to no good.

If this were really an image of 'Judaism'... then we should see evidence of that within the Church. But we don't.

Here's what the symbol should look like (or what it probably would have looked like if there had ever been such a thing):



As for my signature, surely you've seen ICXC NIKA before... do you just mean the configuration of the letters, or?

Quote
It seems to me that you could have have chosen on your own to use it that way.

Yes, I guess... I've seen it like this before though:

IC XC
NI KA

Quote
Be good

I'm trying man...

Thanks for the reply,

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Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
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