Punch,You wrote:
I don't know. As I was reading the article, the dial on my BS meter was dancing pretty high in the red.
Yes, I don't know either if it's real. That's pretty funny about the BS meter.
The reason it seems like
it could easily be a hoax, is because the claim's veracity depends on:
(1) the researcher's claim that a single Greek Orthodox monk alleged that he discovered it someplace, and
the claim by the Israeli archeology official that several other samples of such alleged discoveries were shown to him.
(2) Plus its veracity also depends on the mere assumption that
if the monk just found it in a grotto or the vessels were shown to an archeology official that this means:
(A) it was a real archeological object, and
(B) that it was an archeological object from the 1st-3rd centuries AD
(3)Plus, it depends on a
conspiracy theory that
(A) the owner of the grotto on Mount Zion by the Upper Room allowed an apparently uneducated Greek monk to personally excavate a huge number of 40 artifacts bearing an extremely rare symbol from there, but that his superior monks try to prevent the public from knowing about it, and
(B) that official Israeli archeological institutions intentionally keep silent about an apparently important archeological find that is used by the pro-Israeli-system wing of Christianity.
In my opinion, it's unlikely to be real because it's unlikely that all the assumptions about the monk's objects are true, and it's also unlikely that every assumption about the objects the official saw are true. I think it's unlikely for example, that an uneducated monk would be the one to undertake a major archeological dig near the Church of the Apostles, for example.
Plus, there is apparently a potential market for
archeological hoaxes in the Holy Land. And the same kinds of criticisms about the "James brother of Jesus" ossuary having letters cut into it as a hoax seem applicable here. The Israeli Antiquities Authority, for example, claims that the "James brother of Jesus" ossuary is a hoax.
Not to mention that within the Christian tradition that we have, including comments about heresies, no such archeological symbol exists. Plus, the many archeological finds elsewhere, like the catacombs in Rome, and Christian caves in the Holy Land
lack such a symbol.If it is BS, then the measure of the BS is pretty high, like you said, because based on the discoveries, the symbol has become one of the major symbols of Messianic Judaism or the wing of Christianity supporting the Israrli State, if not both.
For example, it's the symbol of Israel Today Magazine, whose donation advertisement says "
support Israel Today in the online media war." My point here is that the symbol is being treated with a high amount of importance.
Peace
NORTHERN PINES:I agree with you when you write:
"I'm pretty sure it's a hoax!
Anyways, if this was a real story, it would be plastered all over CNN and Biblical Archaeological Review as it would be the first evidence the Star of David was used that far into Judaism's past. But it's been a long time since I read up on some of this so who knows? But I'm definitely skeptical."
Still, I have some doubt that it's a hoax, because for example it seems unlikely that the Messianic researcher or a Greek monk would outright lie. Except that the monk was an old man, and I can reasonably imagine an uneducated old man making up a "tall tale", so to speak.
Even though you haven't read much in Biblical archeology since then, I highly doubt anything has come up that disproves your conclusion, as my research on the symbol didn't bring up anything that was much more explanatory about the symbol's discovery.
You wrote:
In the 1st century the Menorah was the symbol of Judaism, even the Romans knew that which is why they carried the Menorah back to Rome and melted it down after the destruction of Herod's Temple.
However, that 3 part symbol IS a popular symbol among "Messianic Jews" and and other Evangelical Christians who strongly lean to Messianic theology.
I remember TBN once sold some things with that symbol on there and I thinK Zola Levvit did as well. (back in the day when I was really into Zola Levvit etc...of whom I still have respect for as I think he was genuine and really loved Christ.
Wow, that's pretty offensive to the Menorah to bring it back and melt it as a victory symbol.
Yes, I think Zola Levitt loved Christ. Regarding his genuiness, his ministry seems to use hyperbole and strong statements. For example, his claim that "only the Jews" have a right to the land in the Holy Land seems like too an exagerrated, absolutist statement, and he should have understood it as such. For example, I heard that the Old Testament says that the Israelites should allow nonIsraelites to stay in the Holy Land, and treat them well, remembering that the Israelites were once foreigners in Egypt. So it seems that even those non-Israelites can make a claim that the Bible gives them a "civil right" as individuals to their areas among the Israelites, and that this right is consistent with the Israelites' claim to the land.
Thus, Zola's absolutist claim that "only" the Jews have a right to the land, with its corollary that non-Jews have no right to the land, seems to be an inaccurate exagerration at best, and in that sense non-genuine. Although perhaps Zola failed to understand that, in which case he would be genuine.
As you thought, Zola ministries does sell the symbol. The caption underneath in the catalog is:
- "GRAFTED-IN TRANSFER DECAL
What does this trio of symbols mean to you?
Whether you put our unique golden decal on
your Bible, car window, doorpost, or purse, you
can be sure to stir curiosities and witnessing
opportunities with this tribute to light, God,
and abundant love."
It appears to me that if someone were to read this description, with no outside knowledge about the symbol, they would assume that it was simply a combination of symbols that someone in the Messianic Judaism movement designed as a nice expression combining ideas about Judaism (the menorah), the Star of David (a people, a religion, and/or a political system), and Christianity.
You commented:
"The Star of David symbol, as far as historians and archaeologists know, was not in use in the 1st century. According to wikipedia there is no evidence that it was used by Jews until the 10th century and then only sporadically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David#History_of_the_Shield_of_David"
The Star of David simply wasn't a part of the Jewish symbols, or religious thought then.
However, in fact Wikipedia says:
", in Israel, there is a stone bearing a hexagram from the arch of a 3–4th century synagogue in the Galilee.[3] A supposed Shield of David has been noted on a Jewish tombstone at Taranto, in Southern Italy, which may date as early as the third century CE.[4]"So it seems that at most, the archeologists and historians don't know whether or not it was used in the 1st century.
You wrote: "I remember TBN once sold some things with that symbol on there and I thinK Zola Levvit did as well. (back in the day when I was really into Zola Levvit etc...of whom I still have respect for as I think he was genuine and really loved Christ. TBN on the other hand, well . . . . LOL!"
I believe you that TBN sold the symbol stuff there. On the other hand, I don't know why thinking about whether they are genuine and loved Christ just makes you laugh. - although it is funny that it does
Because in part they have a puffed-up attitude with a royal-looking coat-of-arms as their symbol.
Take care
Biro:Tech Oteeoos sounds like an interesting name, to say the least.
I know. It sounds unusual to me for a Greek name, as if "Tech" is a nickname. Plus, there is little information about him on the internet. So it reduces the story's veracity that there was such a Greek monk, especially one who conducted an important archeological dig.
Regards
Saint Iaint,You wrote:
I call fake.
The symbol might be believable if it didn't have the 'Seal of Solomon' on there.
†IC XC†
†NI KA†
Yes, it seems to be fake, because it seems like an unlikely story that 40 artefacts would be found with this symbol in a small area, when the symbol was unknown in the record of Christian traditions and heresies that have been handed down, as well as beyond publicized archeological records.
If the symbol lacked the Star of David, it would still seem unlikely, because it would just be a menorah with a straight, vertical base connected to an upside-down fish, in which case it would still be an extremely unusual symbol.
I could accept that the menorah's base and the fish's base in the symbol was just a coincidence with a very rare symbol in 1st Judaism.
However, I agree that the fact that the base forms what would become one of the 2 most common symbols related to Judaism at the time it was discovered, suggests a strong connection between the time in which it was discovered and the object's design. That in turn suggests that it was created in the same time period when it was discovered.
By the way, I don't clearly remember seeing anyone else sign letters or message with the symbol:
†IC XC†
†NI KA†
It seems to me that you could have have chosen on your own to use it that way.
Be good
