Topic: What kind of scroll is this?

[rakovsky]

Hello, I can't read Greek, but this scroll looks cool!

Με τον όρο Νόμο εννοούμε κατ' αρχάς τις Δέκα Εντολές, που δόθηκαν από τον Θεό στο Μωυσή σαν διαθήκη. Συμφωνία αγάπης ανάμεσα σ' Αυτόν και το λαό Του. Με το πέρασμα του χρόνου διαμορφώθηκαν και άλλες πολλές διατάξεις, που αποδόθηκαν στο νομοθέτη Μωυσή και καταγράφηκαν στα πέντε πρώτα βιβλία της Παλαιάς Διαθήκης, στη Πεντάτευχο. Ο Νόμος ήταν αναγκαίος για την διαπαιδαγώγηση του λαού, οποίος θα προετοιμαζόταν να δεχτεί το Μεσσία Χριστό και τη βασιλεία του.
Στα χρόνια του Ιησού, και πιο πριν, ο Νόμος δε λειτούργησε σαν προετοιμασία για το καλύτερο. Το αντίθετο μάλιστα γινόταν. Οι Γραμματείς και οι Φαρισαίοι σαν ερμηνευτές του Νόμου είχαν δημιουργήσει συμπληρωματικά αναρίθμητες άλλες διατάξεις και για τις πιο μικρές λεπτομέρειες της ζωής. 

Παραμελούσαν αυτά που είχαν τη πιο μεγάλη σημασία (δικαιοσύνη, ευσπλαχνία, καθαρή καρδιά), και έπνιγαν τους ανθρώπους σε ανούσια πράγματα. Έτσι ο Νόμος μ' αυτές τις διατάξεις κατάντησε αβάσταχτος ζυγός.
http://8gym-perist.att.sch.gr/edu_material/ApostPavlos/appavlos.htm

Does it say where they got this cool ancient mosaic of St Paul from?

Ο Σαούλ, ή Paulus εκτός συναγωγής, γεννήθηκε στην Ταρσό της Κιλικίας μεταξύ 5 και 15 μ.Χ. Οι γονείς του ήταν Ιουδαίοι από την φυλή του Βενιαμίν. Η ανατροφή του ήταν αυστηρή μέσα στον θρησκευτικό ιουδαϊκό κύκλο με βαθιά συνείδηση της διάστασης του ιουδαϊκού και εθνικού κόσμου. Σπούδασε τον Νόμο στην Ιερουσαλήμ, κοντά στον Γαμαλιήλ τον Πρεσβύτερο. Αναδείχτηκε σε φανατικό διώκτη του χριστιανισμού και στο μαρτύριο του Στέφανου ήταν ο νεανίας που κρατούσε τα ρούχα των λιθοβολιστών.

[Saint Iaint]

From Google Translate:

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

The term law is meant first of the Ten Commandments given by God to Moses as a covenant. Agreement between loving Him and His people. With the passage of time came and many other provisions, which were attributed to the legislator Moses and recorded in the first five books of the Old Testament, the Pentateuch. The law was necessary to educate the people, who would be prepared to accept the Messiah and Christ's kingdom.
At the time of Jesus, even before the law and served as preparation for the best. The opposite was done. The scribes and Pharisees as interpreters of the law had created additional numerous other provisions and the smallest details of life.

They had neglected the most important (justice, mercy, purity of heart), and stifle the people in meaningless things. Thus the law with these provisions ended unbearable yoke.

(...) Saul, Paulus or outside the synagogue, was born in Tarsus of Cilicia between 5 and 15 AD His parents were Jews from the tribe of Benjamin. The upbringing was strict in the religious Jewish circle with a deep awareness of gender and national Jewish world. He studied Law in Jerusalem, near Gamaliel the Elder. Became a fanatical persecutor of Christianity and the martyrdom of Stephen was a young man who was holding the clothes lithovoliston.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

A little rough... but it gets the point across.

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

[Tallitot]

The scroll looks like a Sephardic Jewish Torah scroll.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SilverTorahCase.jpg

[Apostolos]

The whole site is a project undertaken by the 8th Gymnasium (junior high school in US nomenclature) of Peristeri, Athens. The scroll is just a generic photo to support the text (referring to the Jewish Torah). As for the mosaic of Paul, I'm 100% sure it's in Ravenna
 

[rakovsky]

The whole site is a project undertaken by the 8th Gymnasium (junior high school in US nomenclature) of Peristeri, Athens. The scroll is just a generic photo to support the text (referring to the Jewish Torah). As for the mosaic of Paul, I'm 100% sure it's in Ravenna
 

Thanks for the translation, Saint!

You are right, Apostolos, that the mosaic is from Ravenna. Would you happen to know where?

It must be one of the earliest depictions of Paul, from the looks of it!

All the best.

[Saint Iaint]

"Thanks for the translation, Saint!"

No problem... Thank Google Translate!

Here look it's easy; just copy and paste the page address (http://www, [etc]) into the box, click translate and Google does all the work. Here's the whole page:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2F8gym-perist.att.sch.gr%2Fedu_material%2FApostPavlos%2Fappavlos.htm]Paul the Apostle/Saul the Persecutor

About the last paragraph in the portion you posted above... I personally would rather see it translated it this way:

"(...) Saul, or Paulus outside the synagogue, was born in Tarsus of Cilicia between 5 and 15 AD. His parents were Hebrews from the tribe of Benjamin. His upbringing was strict in the religious Pharisaic circles (coming up) with a deep awareness of gender and national Judahite culture. He studied Law in Jerusalem, near Gamaliel the Elder. Became a fanatical persecutor of Christianity and (participated in?) the martyrdom of Stephen was a young man who was holding the clothes lithovoliston." (I have no clue what 'lithovoliston' means... Anyone?)

In Paul's time... there were no such words as 'Jews' or 'Jewish'. There were Judahites like Paul (and Jesus), then there were Judeans - many of whom were not Judahites or Israelites at all.

Neither Paul nor Jesus were Judeans.

The word 'Judeans' in the New Testament was eventually translated into English as 'Jews'... AND the word 'Judahite' from the OT was ALSO translated into English as 'Jews'.

Why?

Judahites were people who were descended from the last Israelite kingdom of Judah (including tribal Judahites, Benjamites and Levites), as well as non-Israelite citizens of that kingdom. If you had lived in Judah - you would have been a Judahite. But just because you were a Judahite (as in a citizen of the kingdom of Judah) obviously that did not make you a tribal Israelite.

And Judeans were not necessarily Judahites or Israelites either... The Greek historian Strabo said that in Christ's time many (if not the majority) of Judeans ('Jews') were actually racially Edomites... not Israelites at all.

BTW that translate page can do Russian and many other languages as well...

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

[Apostolos]

...
"(...) Saul, or Paulus outside the synagogue, was born in Tarsus of Cilicia between 5 and 15 AD. His parents were Hebrews from the tribe of Benjamin. His upbringing was strict in the religious Pharisaic circles (coming up) with a deep awareness of gender and national Judahite culture. He studied Law in Jerusalem, near Gamaliel the Elder. Became a fanatical persecutor of Christianity and (participated in?) the martyrdom of Stephen was a young man who was holding the clothes lithovoliston." (I have no clue what 'lithovoliston' means... Anyone?)
†IC XC†
†NI KA†

"Stone-casters" (obviously referring to St. Stephens death); Paul was holding the clothes of the stone-casters who killed st Stephen the first-martyr

[Saint Iaint]

...
"(...) Saul, or Paulus outside the synagogue, was born in Tarsus of Cilicia between 5 and 15 AD. His parents were Hebrews from the tribe of Benjamin. His upbringing was strict in the religious Pharisaic circles (coming up) with a deep awareness of gender and national Judahite culture. He studied Law in Jerusalem, near Gamaliel the Elder. Became a fanatical persecutor of Christianity and (participated in?) the martyrdom of Stephen was a young man who was holding the clothes lithovoliston." (I have no clue what 'lithovoliston' means... Anyone?)
†IC XC†
†NI KA†

"Stone-casters" (obviously referring to St. Stephens death); Paul was holding the clothes of the stone-casters who killed st Stephen the first-martyr

Ah, thank you Apostolos... Are you Greek?

Any comments regarding the translation?

How would you render the above paragraph from Greek to English (referencing the original page in question)?

Thanks

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

[rakovsky]

Saint,
Wikipedia says:

The English word Jew continues Middle English Gyw, Iewe, a loan from Old French giu, earlier juieu, ultimately from Latin Iudaeum. The Latin Iudaeus simply means Judaean, "from the land of Judaea". The Latin term itself, like the corresponding Greek Ἰουδαῖος, is a loan from Aramaic Y'hūdāi, corresponding to Hebrew: יְהוּדִי‎, Yehudi (sg.); יְהוּדִים, Yehudim (pl.), in origin the term for a member of the tribe of Judah or the people of the kingdom of Judah. The name of both the tribe and kingdom derive from Judah, the fourth son of Jacob.

The Hebrew word for Jew, יְהוּדִי, is pronounced [jəhuˈdiː], with the stress on the final syllable.[12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

However, you are making a point, since in Acts 22, Paul refers to himself as "Judean": "Ἐγώ εἰμι ἀνὴρ Ἰουδαῖος, γεγεννημένος ἐν Ταρσῷ τῆς Κιλικίας"

On the other hand, Wikipedia's claim is that the word Jew comes from Judean, which means Judahite in Hebrew.

in other words, English Jew=Greek Judean=Hebrew Judahite

The only way to argue against this would be to show that Greek has two separate words for Judean and Judahite. It should, since St Paul was a Judean, but not from the tribe of Benjamin.

In any case, since St Paul the Christian from the tribe of Benjamin (not Judah) calls himself a Judean, then we still have the problem of how to distinguish between Christian Judeans/Jews and Judeans/Jews who follow Judaism. After all, most Christians were Judeans and/or descendants of Judah.

So you have to really use two words- Judaist (someone who believes in Judaism), and Jew (someone who belongs to the Jewish people, which Christ and the apostles did).

Regards.

[Apostolos]

Ah, thank you Apostolos... Are you Greek?

Yep, born, raised and live there.

Any comments regarding the translation?
How would you render the above paragraph from Greek to English (referencing the original page in question)?

Thanks

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

Well google did a good job. A few minor corrections:
"Saul, or Paulus outside the synagogue, was born in Tarsus of Cilicia between 5 and 15 AD. His parents were Judæans from the tribe of Benjamin. His upbringing was strict in the religious Pharisaic circles; he was raised having a deep awareness of the differences between the Judahite and National (meaning heathen, goy) culture. He studied Law in Jerusalem, near Gamaliel the Elder. He became a fanatical persecutor of Christianity and participated in the martyrdom of Stephen. He was the young man holding the clothes of the stone-casters."

[Saint Iaint]

Ah, thank you Apostolos... Are you Greek?

Yep, born, raised and live there.

Any comments regarding the translation?
How would you render the above paragraph from Greek to English (referencing the original page in question)?

Thanks

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

Well google did a good job. A few minor corrections:
"Saul, or Paulus outside the synagogue, was born in Tarsus of Cilicia between 5 and 15 AD. His parents were Judæans from the tribe of Benjamin. His upbringing was strict in the religious Pharisaic circles; he was raised having a deep awareness of the differences between the Judahite and National (meaning heathen, goy) culture. He studied Law in Jerusalem, near Gamaliel the Elder. He became a fanatical persecutor of Christianity and participated in the martyrdom of Stephen. He was the young man holding the clothes of the stone-casters."

Thanks again... It's good to make your acquaintance.

I'm very interested in learning Greek someday myself...

I'm wondering now if you could tell me the precise meaning of these words in order to augment the conversation which Hal (rakovsky) and I are into here?

When it boils down to it... I simply cannot truly read Greek - so I am always dependant on the translator to faithfully convey the meaning of a word.

Here they are:

• 1. Ιouδαιoς
  2. Iouδαιov
  3. Iouδαιw
  4. Iouδαιoις
  5. Iouδαιωv
  6. Iouδαιou
  7. Iouδαιoι
  8. Iouδαιouς
  9. Iouδαια

I'm just having a hard time with these ones... Which one means 'Judahite' as in of the tribe or kingdom of Judah <not Judea> (as described above)? Which one means Judean?

Hal, Apostolos... I wish I could write more now but I'm on my way out to work now.  More later...

PS, Hal... The Benjamites (like St. Paul) were considered Judahites because they were a part of the Southern kingdom of Judah - not Judea as opposed to the Northern kingdom of Israel.

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

[rakovsky]

The Benjamites (like St. Paul) were considered Judahites because they were a part of the Southern kingdom of Judah - not Judea as opposed to the Northern kingdom of Israel.

There was twelve tribes, but over time the northern ones became lost and the smaller ones, like Benjamin and refugees from the north became absorbed into Judah, and were not a separate entity. Paul might have been a Judahite in the sense that his ancestors lived under the control of Judah, but they were not Judahites in terms of ethnicity, since they were of Benjamin.

In the same way that Paul was a Judahite- his ancestors lived in the Kingdom of Judah, so in the same way he was a Judean- he lived in Judea. When Paul calls himself Ἰουδαῖος , doesn't he mean a Judean?

I am confused, and not sure it matters, if Wikipedia is right and Judea is just the Greek word for Judah.

[Apostolos]

...When it boils down to it... I simply cannot truly read Greek - so I am always dependant on the translator to faithfully convey the meaning of a word.
Here they are:

• 1. Ιouδαιoς
  2. Iouδαιov
  3. Iouδαιw
  4. Iouδαιoις
  5. Iouδαιωv
  6. Iouδαιou
  7. Iouδαιoι
  8. Iouδαιouς
  9. Iouδαια

What you have written there is just one noun (Ιουδαίος, Judean) declined in almost all the cases and genders, in Koine Greek:
1. Ιouδαιoς-->Judean (singular, masculine, nominative: a Judean man); the correct spelling is Ἰουδαῖος
2. Iouδαιov-->Judean (singular, masculine, accusative: the direct object of a transitive verb, e.g. I see Ἰoυδαῖov)
3. Iouδαιw--> Judean (singular, masculine, dative: to whom something is given, e.g. I gave something Ἰουδαίῳ)
4. Iouδαιoις-->Judeans (plural, masculine, dative: to whom something is given, e.g. I gave something Ἰουδαίοις)
5. Iouδαιωv-->Judeans' (plural, masculine, genitive: indicates possession, Ἰουδαίων)
6. Iouδαιou-->Judean's (singular, masculine, genitive: indicates possession, Ἰουδαίου
7. Iouδαιoι-->Judeans (plural, masculine, nominative: the Judean men); the correct spelling is Ἰουδαῖοι
8. Iouδαιouς-->Judeans (plural, masculine, accusative: the direct object of a transitive verb, e.g. I see Ἰουδαίους
9. Iouδαια-->Judea (singular, feminine, nominative: a Judean woman or Judea, the country: Ἰουδαία; or vocative, when someone is been addressed: Hey, Ἰουδαία!).

I'm just having a hard time with these ones... Which one means 'Judahite' as in of the tribe or kingdom of Judah <not Judea> (as described above)? Which one means Judean?

You are looking for the adjective Ἰουδαϊκός (masc.), Ἰουδαϊκὴ (fem.), Ἰουδαϊκό (neut.). Again depending on the context, 'Judahite' is either masculine, feminine or neuter, e.g. Judahite tribe is Ἰουδαϊκὴ (feminine) φυλὴ because tribe in Greek is a feminine noun. The Judahite Kingdom is Ἰουδαϊκὸ (neuter) Βασίλειο because Kingdom in Greek is a neuter noun, etc.

[Saint Iaint]

Apologies for having taken so long to reply. Boss made me work the whole weekend again (Grrrr).

"The English word Jew continues Middle English Gyw, Iewe, a loan from Old French giu, earlier juieu, ultimately from Latin Iudaeum. The Latin Iudaeus simply means Judaean, "from the land of Judaea". The Latin term itself, like the corresponding Greek Ἰουδαῖος, is a loan from Aramaic Y'hūdāi, corresponding to Hebrew: יְהוּדִי‎, Yehudi (sg.); יְהוּדִים, Yehudim (pl.), in origin the term for a member of the tribe of Judah or the people of the kingdom of Judah."

Judean and Judahite are not synonymous.

Additionally, neither Judean or Judahite are synonymous with 'Hebrew' (as in the race of the person of Jesus Christ - though that seems to be what most people think)... One could be a Judean at the turn of the first century without being a Hebrew and earlier, one could have also been a Judahite without being a Hebrew.

"However, you are making a point, since in Acts 22, Paul refers to himself as "Judean": "Ἐγώ εἰμι ἀνὴρ Ἰουδαῖος, γεγεννημένος ἐν Ταρσῷ τῆς Κιλικίας""

Paul referred to himself as a Judean... but we know that Paul was from Tarsus. Paul also said:

” For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the (Judeans) I became as a (Judean), that I might win (Judeans); to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel's sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.”
- I Corinthians 9:19-23

"(...) in other words, English Jew=Greek Judean=Hebrew Judahite"

That simply isn't true (though that does seem to be the popular consensus in modern 'Christendom')...

Many Judeans in New Testament times (even the kings Herod!) were Edomites. That is - these 'Judeans' were children of Esau... In other words - they were definitely not tribal Judahites. Yet they were called 'Judeans'. Which means in English - they are called 'Jews'! But clearly they were not 'Jews' in the sense that most people ascribe to the word 'Jews' today.

“So you have to really use two words- Judaist (someone who believes in Judaism), and Jew (someone who belongs to the Jewish people, which Christ and the apostles did).”

I propose we just go with ‘Jews’ (as in those who claim to worship the God of Israel – but who reject Jesus as the Christ - the vast majority of whom <which are 'religious'> are Talmudic) and Hebrews (people who are actually descended from Middle Eastern Hebrews/tribal Judahites).

” There was twelve tribes”...

Technically there were thirteen. Rather than Josephites, there were two tribes named for Joseph’s sons: Ephraim and Manasseh.

The tribes were Benjamites, Ephraimites, Manassites, Naptalites, Danites, Asherites, Issacharites, Judahites, Zebulonites, Simeonites, Reubenites,  Gadites and the priestly tribe of the Levites.

” I am confused, and not sure it matters, if Wikipedia is right and Judea is just the Greek word for Judah.”

I’m not sure that is actually what Wikipedia said... But no – Judea is not the Greek word for Judah.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

”You are looking for the adjective Ἰουδαϊκός (masc.), Ἰουδαϊκὴ (fem.), Ἰουδαϊκό (neut.). Again depending on the context, 'Judahite' is either masculine, feminine or neuter, e.g. Judahite tribe is Ἰουδαϊκὴ (feminine) φυλὴ because tribe in Greek is a feminine noun. The Judahite Kingdom is Ἰουδαϊκὸ (neuter) Βασίλειο because Kingdom in Greek is a neuter noun, etc.”

Thank you once again Apostolos!  You have been very helpful.

Can you tell me where - if anywhere – the word Ἰουδαϊκός (or one of its derivatives indicating definite Judahite lineage) can be found in the Bible (O.T. or New)?

It seems to me that where the tribes are listed and we see the words ‘Benjamite’, ’Gadite’, etc for the tribes of Benjamin and Gad... we should also see the word ‘Judahite’ to represent those of Judah.

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

[rakovsky]

Dear Saint Iaint,

Thank you for translating the Greek here.

Like you said, more correctly, it says: "Saul, or Paulus outside the synagogue," instead of "Saul, Paulus or outside the synagogue". What it says about St Paul is discernable from the New Testament, except I guess when he was born.

From Google Translate:

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

The term law is meant first of the Ten Commandments given by God to Moses as a covenant. Agreement between loving Him and His people. With the passage of time came and many other provisions, which were attributed to the legislator Moses and recorded in the first five books of the Old Testament, the Pentateuch. The law was necessary to educate the people, who would be prepared to accept the Messiah and Christ's kingdom.
At the time of Jesus, even before the law and served as preparation for the best. The opposite was done. The scribes and Pharisees as interpreters of the law had created additional numerous other provisions and the smallest details of life.

They had neglected the most important (justice, mercy, purity of heart), and stifle the people in meaningless things. Thus the law with these provisions ended unbearable yoke.

(...) Saul, Paulus or outside the synagogue, was born in Tarsus of Cilicia between 5 and 15 AD His parents were Jews from the tribe of Benjamin. The upbringing was strict in the religious Jewish circle with a deep awareness of gender and national Jewish world. He studied Law in Jerusalem, near Gamaliel the Elder. Became a fanatical persecutor of Christianity and the martyrdom of Stephen was a young man who was holding the clothes lithovoliston.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

A little rough... but it gets the point across.

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

Also, I disagree that it says "His parents were Hebrews". It says specifically and clearly that they were Judeans or Jews, whichever is the correct translation. Otherwise your personal translation is OK. I don't know what lithovoliston means, but it seems like it has to do with the clothes. Lithos is related to rocks, and a volley of shots is a round of shots, so it seems like the phrase with "lithovoliston" means Paul was holding the clothes of the "stone-throwers."


It appears to me you are right when you write:

About the last paragraph in the portion you posted above... I personally would rather see it translated it this way:

"(...) Saul, or Paulus outside the synagogue, was born in Tarsus of Cilicia between 5 and 15 AD. His parents were Hebrews from the tribe of Benjamin. His upbringing was strict in the religious Pharisaic circles (coming up) with a deep awareness of gender and national Judahite culture. He studied Law in Jerusalem, near Gamaliel the Elder. Became a fanatical persecutor of Christianity and (participated in?) the martyrdom of Stephen was a young man who was holding the clothes lithovoliston." (I have no clue what 'lithovoliston' means... Anyone?)

In Paul's time... there were no such words as 'Jews' or 'Jewish'. There were Judahites like Paul (and Jesus), then there were Judeans - many of whom were not Judahites or Israelites at all.

Neither Paul nor Jesus were Judeans.

The word 'Judeans' in the New Testament was eventually translated into English as 'Jews'... AND the word 'Judahite' from the OT was ALSO translated into English as 'Jews'.

Why?

Judahites were people who were descended from the last Israelite kingdom of Judah (including tribal Judahites, Benjamites and Levites), as well as non-Israelite citizens of that kingdom. If you had lived in Judah - you would have been a Judahite. But just because you were a Judahite (as in a citizen of the kingdom of Judah) obviously that did not make you a tribal Israelite.

And Judeans were not necessarily Judahites or Israelites either... The Greek historian Strabo said that in Christ's time many (if not the majority) of Judeans ('Jews') were actually racially Edomites... not Israelites at all.

The Benjamites (like St. Paul) were considered Judahites because they were a part of the Southern kingdom of Judah - not Judea as opposed to the Northern kingdom of Israel.

Except that I think that strictly speaking, Judahites simply meant the people of the Tribe of Judah, and that the term has an expanded meaning, because people from the Tribe of Benjamin later lived in the Kingdom of Judah, and the term Judahite could include them.

And except that Apostolos translated one of the phrases better: "deep awareness of the differences between the Judahite and National (meaning heathen, goy) culture"

You asked:

I'm wondering now if you could tell me the precise meaning of these words
Here they are:
1. Ιouδαιoς
2. Iouδαιov
3. Iouδαιw
4. Iouδαιoις
5. Iouδαιωv
6. Iouδαιou
7. Iouδαιoι
8. Iouδαιouς
9. Iouδαια
I'm just having a hard time with these ones... Which one means 'Judahite' as in of the tribe or kingdom of Judah <not Judea> (as described above)? Which one means Judean?

It appears each word has the rootword "Judae-". For example #9 says Judaea. I'm sorry, I don't see the difference you're looking for.

Apostolos pointed out that the word "Judahite" in Greek has a "k" where the "h" is in English, which makes it distinguishable from the word Judean.

You're right that: "Judean and Judahite are not synonymous. Additionally, neither Judean or Judahite are synonymous with 'Hebrew'"

I somewhat disagree with your words in parentheses: "Additionally, neither Judean or Judahite are synonymous with 'Hebrew' (as in the race of the person of Jesus Christ - though that seems to be what most people think)... , because (1) Jesus Christ was also from the tribe of Judah, so it seems better to say "the race of the Judahites" to make it clearer, and (2) Hebrew isn't necessarily a "race". Rather, "Hebrew" can simply refer to one group of the Semitic peoples, which includes Arabs for example. In such a case, Hebrews are only part of the Semitic race.

Further, there is some confusion about the term Hebrew.

Genesis 14:13(JPS) says: "And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew--now he dwelt by the terebinths of Mamre the Amorite". So it's clear that Abram is a Hebrew in the Scriptures.

The term Hebrew, according to Wikipedia's entry on the word, might come from the Patriarch Eber in the Bible, an ancestor of Abraham:

Eber, an ancestor of Jacob (six generations removed), is a distant ancestor of many people, including the Israelites, Ishmaelites, Edomites, Ammonites, Midianites, Qahtanite, Nahorites(including Aramites) and Moabites.

It sounds like you are right that: "One could be a Judean at the turn of the first century without being a Hebrew and earlier, one could have also been a Judahite without being a Hebrew.", but the latter is somewhat doubtful, because it sounds like it would mean a person who had joined the tribe of Judah without being descended from the Patriarch Eber, which is a wide range of descendents.

You wrote: "Paul referred to himself as a Judean... but we know that Paul was from Tarsus. Paul also said: ” For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the (Judeans) I became as a (Judean), that I might win (Judeans);"", citing 1 Corinthians 9.

It's confusing what he meant if he wasn't a Judean, except that he could mean in my mind that he moved to the province of Judea and became one of them by living there in their culture, like someone can be born in Texas but live in Alaska for a long time. Anyway, it seems to me likely that he was also descended from someone living in the Jewish Kingdom of Judea in the pre-Roman times.

Also, it appears you're right that it "simply isn't true" that "in other words, English Jew=Greek Judean=Hebrew Judahite", because Apostolos showed that Greek has a separate word for Judahite than Judean.

It sounds right when you say:

Many Judeans in New Testament times (even the kings Herod!) were Edomites. That is - these 'Judeans' were children of Esau... In other words - they were definitely not tribal Judahites. Yet they were called 'Judeans'. Which means in English - they are called 'Jews'! But clearly they were not 'Jews' in the sense that most people ascribe to the word 'Jews' today.

Except that I don't remember reading elsewhere that "(even the kings Herod!) were Edomites. That is - these 'Judeans' were children of Esau...", so I have some doubt about this.

Plus, if they belonged to the 1st century BC Kingdom of Judea, and practiced pre-Christian Judaism like I assumed the Herods did, then even if they weren't descended from Judah, I somewhat disagree that "they were not 'Jews' in the sense that most people ascribe to the word 'Jews' today", because I think people understand the term to refer to the people of Judah or followers of Judaism. If they merely belonged to the 1st century BC Kingdom of Judea, which followed pre-Christian Judaism, then I think people would feel that they were only Jews in a weak way, like say an illegal immigrant or foreign-born US permanent resident being American.

I disagree with your proposal that people should

just go with ‘Jews’ (as in those who claim to worship the God of Israel – but who reject Jesus as the Christ - the vast majority of whom <which are 'religious'> are Talmudic) and Hebrews (people who are actually descended from Middle Eastern Hebrews/tribal Judahites).

, because in the paradigm you would create, you deprive Christians and nonreligious persons descended from the tribe of Judah of their true ethnic identity.

Jesus himself said that "salvation is of the Jews." You might try to argue that terminology is confusing between Judahites and Judeans. but the term "Jew" began as a reference to the people of Judah, and it should stay that way. An expanded definition is possible too, to include the people of Judaea, which was a 1st-century BC- 1st century AD Kingdom and Roman Province.

But in my mind, the clearest wording is to simply refer to descendants of the tribe of Judah as Jews, followers of Judaism as Judaists, and descendants of Judea as Judaeans.

For all the dislike that you appear to show of people who simply follow Judaism and for whatever personal reason haven't affirmatively accepted Jesus, your definition:

‘Jews’ (as in those who claim to worship the God of Israel – but who reject Jesus as the Christ - the vast majority of whom <which are 'religious'> are Talmudic)

, is actually an anti-Christian definition, because it would mean that only a person of the broad Judeo-Christian tradition-including many deists- who rejected Jesus would be the only real "Jew."

Such a definition would actually be "anti-Semitic" in the classical sense because it would deprive the Jewish people of their ethnic identity. Such a definition even contradicts classical Judaism, because at least Maimonaides had a list of positive requirements for followers of Judaism that went beyond simply "worshipping the God of Israel", like accepting the resurrection.

You are right that as to the number of tribes, "Technically there were thirteen. Rather than Josephites, there were two tribes named for Joseph’s sons: Ephraim and Manasseh." However, it could also be said that there were "12 tribes", and that one of the tribes was made of two sub-tribes. Or it could be said that there were 12 tribes at least until Joseph had two sons.

I disagree when you write: ”I’m not sure that is actually what Wikipedia said... But no – Judea is not the Greek word for Judah."

Wikipedia's entry on Judea says that the two words are the same in Hebrew, and also in Greek:

Judea or Judæa (from the Hebrew: יהודה, Standard Yəhuda Tiberian Yəhûḏāh "Tribe of Judah", Greek: Ιουδαία, Ioudaía; Latin: Iudaea) was the name of the mountainous southern part of the historic Land of Israel (Hebrew: ארץ ישראל‎ Eretz Yisrael) from the 8th century BCE (Assyrian rule)

I'm sorry I don't know "where - if anywhere – the word Ἰουδαϊκός (or one of its derivatives indicating definite Judahite lineage) can be found in the Bible (O.T. or New)", although I did a brief search on Google, and it also seems to me as you write:

"It seems to me that where the tribes are listed and we see the words ‘Benjamite’, ’Gadite’, etc for the tribes of Benjamin and Gad... we should also see the word ‘Judahite’ to represent those of Judah."

Your profile says:
"Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada".
Did you join the church?

Kind Regards.


Dear Apostolos,

Thanks for mentioning that "As for the mosaic of Paul, I'm 100% sure it's in Ravenna". The mosaic has an authentic feel to it about St. Paul.

Also, I believe you that:

"Stone-casters" (obviously referring to St. Stephens death); Paul was holding the clothes of the stone-casters who killed st Stephen the first-martyr

Thank you for your translation of the paragraph. Good job.

Plus, you made a good explanation that:

"You are looking for the adjective Ἰουδαϊκός (masc.), Ἰουδαϊκὴ (fem.), Ἰουδαϊκό (neut.). Again depending on the context, 'Judahite' is either masculine, feminine or neuter, e.g. Judahite tribe is Ἰουδαϊκὴ (feminine) φυλὴ because tribe in Greek is a feminine noun. The Judahite Kingdom is Ἰουδαϊκὸ (neuter) Βασίλειο because Kingdom in Greek is a neuter noun, etc."

Regards.

Tallitot:

That's a pretty silver Torah case you showed. It is nice having you on the forum.

Shalom.

[Saint Iaint]

↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ I'm just confused.

Your profile says:
"Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada".
Did you join the church?

No. I've changed it.

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[Saint Iaint]

Hey Rakovsky,

Thanks for the reply... I was having a rough time when I replied to you before and I realize now that I was a little short w/ you. I'm sorry about that... You deserve a full reply, I do appreciate the effort you put into your reply to me here.

The translation came straight from Google though... not I.

You're right of course, it clearly does not say 'Hebrews'... I guess maybe I thought in my own mind that it should have said Hebrews; not that it had been translated incorrectly but worded a little off from the get-go.

St. Paul's parents lived in Tarsus in Cilicia (now Turkey) so if they were 'Jews' it was in the sense that they were Hebrew descendants  of the Judahite kingdom... but it seems clear that they weren't Judeans.

 

It sounds like you are right that: "One could be a Judean at the turn of the first century without being a Hebrew and earlier, one could have also been a Judahite without being a Hebrew.", but the latter is somewhat doubtful, because it sounds like it would mean a person who had joined the tribe of Judah without being descended from the Patriarch Eber, which is a wide range of descendents.

Well what I meant was there were people living among the Hebrews who were not racially Israelites... but they were also known as Judahites because they were residents of the Southern kingdom of Judah.

You wrote: "Paul referred to himself as a Judean... but we know that Paul was from Tarsus. Paul also said: ” For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the (Judeans) I became as a (Judean), that I might win (Judeans);", citing 1 Corinthians 9.

It's confusing what he meant if he wasn't a Judean, except that he could mean in my mind that he moved to the province of Judea and became one of them by living there in their culture, like someone can be born in Texas but live in Alaska for a long time. Anyway, it seems to me likely that he was also descended from someone living in the Jewish Kingdom of Judea in the pre-Roman times.

Exactly... He wasn't a Judean – he was a Cilician (both were Roman provinces) then he came to Judea and eventually became “as a Judean” that he might win the Judeans (whether they were Hebrews or not) to Christ.

It sounds right when you say:
Quote
Many Judeans in New Testament times (even the kings Herod!) were Edomites. That is - these 'Judeans' were children of Esau... In other words - they were definitely not tribal Judahites. Yet they were called 'Judeans'. Which means in English - they are called 'Jews'! But clearly they were not 'Jews' in the sense that most people ascribe to the word 'Jews' today.
Except that I don't remember reading elsewhere that "(even the kings Herod!) were Edomites. That is - these 'Judeans' were children of Esau...", so I have some doubt about this.

Well, just look 'em up and you'll see that they were indeed racially Edomites. I agree that there is a very good possibility that “they were only Jews in a weak way, like say an illegal immigrant or foreign-born US permanent resident being American.”

I disagree with your proposal that people should
Quote
just go with ‘Jews’ (as in those who claim to worship the God of Israel – but who reject Jesus as the Christ - the vast majority of whom <which are 'religious'> are Talmudic) and Hebrews (people who are actually descended from Middle Eastern Hebrews/tribal Judahites).
, because in the paradigm you would create, you deprive Christians and nonreligious persons descended from the tribe of Judah of their true ethnic identity.

I think that the vast majority of the 'Jews' of today are not actually descended from the Palestinian Judahites. I think this because they are White (not Middle-Eastern looking at all).

The majority of the first Christians were Israelites. My ancestors at some point became Christian also...

So can I too now claim racial Israelite descent?

It's ridiculous.

Jesus himself said that "salvation is of the Jews."

I think that is better rendered as “Salvation comes out of Judea”.

Look at these verses which use the same word (Greek 'Ek', #1537- Origin)... The word means 'out of'.


'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.' "
Matthew 2:6

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."
Micah 5:2

The King James renders Hebrews 7:14-

“For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.'

So Salvation came out of Judea in that Christ was born in Bethlehem... but Jesus was a Galilean.

Here is Judea (in pink at the bottom). Note that it is separate from Galilee (shown in green above Samaria in yellow).



So were all Galileans also 'Judeans' ('Jews')?

Or just Jesus the Galilean from Nazareth was somehow also a Judean? Were all of the Samaritans - Judeans ('Jews') as well?

Don't get me wrong... I do not have this all figured out by any means. The language barrier for me is great.

I was really appreciating the help that Apostolos was providing in that regard... but he kind of dried up and blew away!

Hope you're well Rakovsky...


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