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Author Topic: One Creed?: an Orthodox Look at the CCC 26-1065  (Read 1582 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: September 28, 2010, 07:26:56 PM »

Way back when I started a study of the CCC, much of which I liked. There are parts, however, which we would word differently, parts that are questionable and parts just downright heretical.  I thought I might post some for discussion.

What is fine I leave in normal.

What is misworded I put in large type

What is questinable

And what is heretical


Quote
PART ONE:

THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION ONE

"I BELIEVE" - "WE BELIEVE"

26 We begin our profession of faith by saying: "I believe" or "We believe". Before expounding the Church's faith, as confessed in the Creed, celebrated in the liturgy and lived in observance of God's commandments and in prayer, we must first ask what "to believe" means. Faith is man's response to God, who reveals Himself and gives Himself to man, at the same time bringing man a superabundant light as he searches for the ultimate meaning of his life. Thus we shall consider first that search (Chapter One), then the divine Revelation by which God comes to meet man (Chapter Two), and finally the response of faith (Chapter Three).

In this I have consulted
The corrected Orthodox Confession of Faith of St. Peter Movila (English no longer on the net that I can find. The Greek and Latin are here
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.vi.i.html
That, and German Fraktur here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uowQAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Orthodoxos+homologia+t%C4%93s+katholik%C4%93s+kai+apostolik%C4%93s+ekkl%C4%93sias+t%C4%93s+anatolik%C4%93s&hl=en&ei=pneiTLuwJJP-ngeA6_iIBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

and on its first edition (he wrote it in Latin):
http://kuleuven.academia.edu/documents/0028/8195/Mirsanu_-_Old_News_about_Mogila_s_Confession._First_Edition_Revisited.pdf


the Longer Catechism of St. Philoret
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/Orthodox_Catechism_of_Philaret.htm#ii.xv.iii.i.p41

An Orthodox Catechism of Met. Hilarion
http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/5_1

amongst other material. Amittedly, the first was during the Western Captivity of the Church, on which one can see Latin books and the Eastern Orthodox clerical elite in Kiev, 1632-1780 By Liudmila V. Charipova
http://books.google.com/books?id=Xaasa9l9g8sC&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=Orthodox+Catechism+Mohyla&source=bl&ots=T-e4wrMNDq&sig=d00U2Ev7cuamGl65LeK4gWX3lvU&hl=en&ei=6G-iTPyfMs2jnQee0OGIBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDUQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Orthodox%20Catechism%20Mohyla&f=false
the second when the Church was emerging, and the latter when the Church had new freedom to be Orthodox.  The earlier ones, because of the overlap of mentality, are useful for that reason for translation of Vatican theology into Orthodox terms.  For that, the Confession of Patriarch Dositehous of Jerusalem is also useful.

According to my read, this section of the CCC is pefectly fine.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2010, 07:42:57 PM »

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
Quote
CHAPTER ONE

MAN'S CAPACITY FOR GOD


I. The Desire for God

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator. (Vatican Council II, Gaudium et Spes 19 # 1)

Quote
28 In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behaviour: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being:

From one ancestor (God) made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him - though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For "in him we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:26-28)

Quote
29 But this "intimate and vital bond of man to God" (GS 19 # 1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man. (GS 19 # 1) Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call. (Cf. GS 19-21; ⇒ Mt 13:22; ⇒ Gen 3:8-10;⇒ Jon 1:3)

Quote
30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice." (Ps 104 (105):3) Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek Him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, "an upright heart", as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.

You are great, O Lord, and greatly to be praised: great is your power and your wisdom is without measure. and man, so small a part of your creation, wants to praise you: this man, though clothed with mortality and bearing the evidence of sin and the proof that you withstand the proud. Despite everything, man, though but a small a part of your creation, wants to praise you. You yourself encourage him to delight in your praise, for you have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you. (St. Augustine, Conf. I, I, I: PL 32, 659-661)

Again, I see nothing questionable here.
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2010, 09:30:03 PM »

The first silly question from me:  What is the CCC?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2010, 09:38:52 PM »

The first silly question from me:  What is the CCC?
"Catechism of the Catholic Church"
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc/index.htm
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2010, 10:59:41 PM »

I have read your first two posts and I don't see anything to disagree with. Of course I would clarify that by "intellect" I do not subscribe to scholasticism which has such a deep and strong place of honor in the West. I read the CCC probably a decade ago. Do you plan to go through it all?
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2010, 12:32:34 AM »

I should perhaps remark that although Catechisms have played only a marginal role in Orthodxy, they have played an increasing role for the Vatican since at least Trent, the Counter-Reformation and the Roman Catechism, to the point now that many communicants of the Vatican now can't imagine the faith without one. That is how St. Peter got the Orthodox involved in the confessionalization of the West.
(On this last point, St. Peter's program for an Orthodox identity in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and a Rus' version of the Zoghby initiative, see "The Cossacks and religion in early modern Ukraine" By Serhii Plokhy)
http://books.google.com/books?id=NCzzxNisc1MC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=Peter+Mohila,+Metropolitan+of+Kiev+Orthodox+Confession+of+Faith&source=bl&ots=gv9GffyUP4&sig=srvX6Fgu2GcB9tdzA0NvRrW7_7c&hl=en&ei=MHSiTKC5H4ekngeZq9WIBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CC8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Peter%20Mohila%2C%20Metropolitan%20of%20Kiev%20Orthodox%20Confession%20of%20Faith&f=false

Quote
II. Ways of Coming to Know God

31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.

Quote
32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.

As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. (⇒ Rom 1:19-20; cf., ⇒ Acts 14:15, ⇒ 17; ⇒ 17:27-28; ⇒ Wis 13:1-9).

And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change? (St. Augustine, Sermo 241, 2: PL 38, 1134)

Quote
33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. the soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material", (GS 18 # 1; cf. 14 # 2) and have its origin only in God.

Quote
34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God". (St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th I, 2, 3)

Quote
35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with Him, God willed both to reveal Himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

Although these statements are not themselves objectionable, I wonder if the Orthodox would start out a discussion on Faith so, as the usual Orthodox catechisms do not.

St. Peter starts:
Quote
Q. 2. Should a Christian first believe and then do good works in life?
R. Since "without faith it is impossible to please God", as St. Paul teaches, "he that comes to God must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him." (Hebrews 11:6) therefore, so that a Christian may please God and his works may be accepted by him, first it is necessary that he have faith in God and then he must form his life according to this faith.
Q. 3. In what do these two things consist?
R. In the three theological virtues, that is, faith, hope and charity, according to which there should also be three parts in the Orthodox Confession of Faith. In the first part the articles of faith are treated; hope, the Lord's Prayer and the Beatitudes are in the second; in the third there are the Commandments of God, wherein is found charity toward God and neighbor.
Q. 4. What is faith?
R. Faith is, according to St. Paul, "the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not. For this the ancients obtained a testimony." (Hebrews 11:1-2) Or, as follows: the apostolic orthodox-catholic (faith) is to believe in one's heart and confess by one's mouth one God in the Holy Trinity, according to the teaching of the same St. Paul: "for with the heart we believe unto justice; but with the mouth confession is made unto salvation;" (Romans 10:10) and then also, Faith is to hold intact all the articles of the orthodox- catholic faith, handed down by Christ the Lord through the Apostles and pronounced and approved in the Ecumenical Councils [In Ms. margin: Sixth Council, canon 82, i.e. Trullo 692] and to believe them without doubt as taught therein, just as the Apostle designates: "Brothers, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle." (II Thess 2:14) And in another place: "I praise (you, brothers), that you are mindful of me in all things; and keep my ordinances as I delivered them to you." (I Cor. 11:2) From these words it is clear that the articles of faith receive their commendation and authority partly from Sacred Scripture and partly from church tradition and the teaching of the Councils and the Holy Fathers. By way of explanation in this matter, St. Dionysius says: "For the substance of our hierarchy is the divinely given oracles; most truly we declare these oracles to be venerated, which were given to us by our holy founders, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in Sacred Scripture and theological books, as also that which comes from these same holy men in a more subtle way, not completely treated from on high, but by the penetration of one mind unto another, indeed by way of the corporeal word, but nevertheless at the same time immaterial, by which our holy founders were taught without writing in this certain sacred tradition." (Ps. Dion., De Eccles. Hier., 1,4 PG 3, 376 (trans. R.P.)) I speak, he says, of certain dogmas given through the Scripture and contained in the theological books (that is, of St. Basil); [This parenthetic phrase is not in the Greek Ms. and refers to St. Basil's classical text on tradition in "De Spiritu Sancto", c. 27, n 66. PG 32, 188. This is clearly Mohila's own reference to St. Basil, not that of Dionysius.] Truly these are dogmas which were orally given by the Apostles and the Holy Fathers. And on these two things the faith is based, not only to remain in the recesses of the heart, with all doubt and fear really removed, but to be proclaimed and professed orally, even as the Psalmist says: "I have believed, therefore have I spoken." (Ps 15:1) "We also believe, wherefore we also speak." (II Cor 4:13)

St. Philaret starts his discussion on the same topic of Faith:
Quote
6. What is faith?
According to the definition of St. Paul, Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Heb. xi. 1); that is, a trust in the unseen as though it were seen, in that which is hoped and waited for as if it were present.
7.  What is the difference between knowledge and faith?
Knowledge has for its object things visible and comprehensible; faith, things which are invisible, and even incomprehensible. Knowledge is founded on experience, on examination of its object; but faith on belief of testimony to truth. Knowledge belongs properly to the intellect, although it may also act on the heart; faith belongs principally to the heart, although it is imparted through the intellect.
8. Why is faith, and not knowledge only, necessary in religious instruction?
Because the chief object of this instruction is God invisible and incomprehensible, and the wisdom of God hidden in a mystery; consequently, many parts of this learning can not be embraced by knowledge, but may be received by faith.
Faith, says St. Cyril of Jerusalem, is the eye which enlighteneth every man's conscience; it giveth man knowledge. For, as the prophet says, If ye will not believe, ye shall not understand. Isa. vii. 9; Cyr. Cat. v.
9. Can you illustrate further the necessity of faith?
St. Cyril thus illustrates it:
It is not only amongst us, who hear the name of Christ, that faith is made so great a thing; but every thing which is done in the world, even by men who are unconnected with the Church, is done by faith. Agriculture is founded on faith; for no one who did not believe that he should gather in the increase of the fruits of the earth would undertake the labor of husbandry. Mariners are guided by faith when they intrust their fate to a slight plank, and prefer the agitation of the unstable waters to the more stable element of the earth. They give themselves up to uncertain expectations, and retain for themselves nothing but faith, to which they trust more than to any anchors. Cyr. Cat. v.

Abp. Hilarion begins in a similar vein:
Quote
INTRODUCTION: DOGMA AND SPIRITUALITY
In our day there is a widely held view that religious dogmas are not compulsory but secondary: even if they still have a certain historical value, they are no longer vital for Christians. Moral and social agendas have become the main concern of many Christian communities, while theological issues are often neglected. The dissociation of dogma and morality, however, contradicts the very nature of religious life, which presupposes that faith should always be confirmed by deeds, and vice versa. Emphasizing this, St James said: ‘Faith apart from works is dead’ (James 2:26). St Paul, on the other hand, claimed that ‘a man is justified by faith apart from works of law’ (Rom.3:28). Under the ‘works of law’ he meant the Old Testament rites and sacrifices which were no longer necessary after Christ’s sacrifice for the life of the world. Good deeds are necessary and essential, yet when separated from faith they do not in themselves save the human person: one is justified by faith, but a faith which is accompanied by moral life.
No less alien to Christianity is the dissociation of dogma and mysticism, or doctrine and spirituality, or theology and spiritual life. There is an essential interdependence between dogma and mysticism: they are inseparable and both, in different ways, lead one to the knowledge of truth. ‘And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free’, says the Lord (John 8:32), Who Himself is the only Truth, the Way and the Life (John 14:6). Each dogma reveals truth, opens up the way and communicates life.
Theology ought not to contradict religious experience but on the contrary proceed from it. This has been the theology of the Fathers of the Church for twenty centuries — from St Paul and St Ignatius of Antioch to St Theophan the Recluse and St Silouan of Mount Athos.
Founded on spiritual experience, remaining apart from rationalism and scholasticism, Orthodox theology is a living entity in our day no less than hundreds of years ago. The same questions have always confronted the human person: What is truth? What is the meaning of life? How can one find joy and peace of heart? What is the way to salvation? Christianity does not aim to dot all the ‘i’s by answering all the questions the human spirit has to ask. But it does open up another reality which transcends all that surrounds us in this earthly life. Once this reality is encountered, the human person leaves behind all his questions and bewilderment, because his soul has come into contact with the Divinity and falls silent in the presence of the Mystery which no human word can convey.

It would seem that the Vatican gives a priority to natural law/reason that, while not denied by Orthodoxy, does not have the same privledged role as priority. In other words, we prefer theology to know "cognoscere," the Vatican to know "scīre/sapere." Hence the reliance of the Vatican on natural law in moral theology/ethics, and the forensics on religious assent:
That's nice.  Now explain how, under Lumen Gentium, as Fr. Ambrose posted, that makes a difference.

Not every "Catholic knows" that it is not infallible, but according to Lumen Gentium, they should assent to it.
NOTE: this has already been addressed earlier to brother Mickey just a couple of weeks ago.  But, truth to tell, I'm not sure if it was in this thread, or in another one, so I will repeat the explanation here. "Religious assent of the mind and will" is, according to the Catholic understanding, different from an "assent of Faith."  "Assent of Faith" - a technical term that every professional Catholic theologian understands - has a different object than "religious assent."  "Assent of Faith" has as its object, infallible teaching or doctrine.  "Assent of Faith" is tantamount to believing something as if God himself were before us telling us "you must believe this" (that's my admittedly non-technical explanation of a technical term Grin ). 

On the other hand, "religious assent" - another technical term - has, as its object, the ecclesiastical Magisterium.  It is equivalent to "religious obedience" to religious authority on earth.  I'll give you the example I gave to brother Mickey earlier.  According to the Latin canons, a Latin Catholic is bound by "religious assent" or "religious obedience" to always confess his/her sins privately to a priest.  On the other hand, an Armenian Catholic is not so bound, and has no need to give "religious assent" to the Latin canons, because according to their own Tradition, general absolution is normative during their DL. 
The matter that requires "assent of faith" in BOTH Traditions, on the other hand, is the Divine teaching that God has given the Church the power to forgive sins.

If a person were to be placed under censure for violating a precept that requires "religious assent," then the immediate reason for the censure would be disobedience to one's religious superior.  In distinction, if a person were to be placed under censure for violating a precept that requires "assent of faith," then the immediate reason for the censure would be heresy.

Hope that helps.  If you have any other questions about the matter, please ask.  I know it might be a difficult concept to understand.
Which of course is a large part of confessionalism.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2010, 12:36:55 AM »

I have read your first two posts and I don't see anything to disagree with. Of course I would clarify that by "intellect" I do not subscribe to scholasticism which has such a deep and strong place of honor in the West.

Yes, I think our theologies begin to swerve in a different direction, as I indicated above, on this issue as seen in the next few sections.

I should have added how St. Innocent of Alaska opens his "Way into the Kingdom of Heaven" (originally written in Aleut):
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx
Quote
We were created to live on earth unlike animals who die and disappear with time, but with the high purpose to live with God not for a hundred years or so but for eternity!

Every individual instinctively strives for happiness. This desire has been implanted in our nature by the Creator Himself, and therefore it is not sinful. But it is important to understand that in this temporary life it is impossible to find full happiness, because that comes from God and cannot be attained without Him. Only He, who is the ultimate Good and the source of all good, can quench our thirst for happiness.

Material things can never wholly satisfy us. Indeed, we know from experience that every item we have desired has pleased us only for a short while. Then it became boring, and we started to desire something else. This process of satisfaction and boredom then repeated itself many times. The most striking example of unquenchable thirst for happiness was Solomon, the famous King of Israel, who lived around 1000 B.C. He was so rich that all the household utensils in his palaces were made of pure gold. He was so wise that kings and famous people from far away lands came to hear him. He was so famous that his foes trembled at the mere mention of his name. He could easily satisfy any of his wishes, and it seemed that there was no pleasure that he did not possess or could not obtain. But with all of this, Solomon could not find total happiness to the end of his life. He described his many years of searching for happiness and his continual disappointments in the book of Ecclesiastes, which he began with the following phrase: Vanity of vanities, all is vanity (Ecc. 1:2).

Innumerable other wise people who were also successful in life came to the same conclusion. It seems that in the depth of our subconscious something reminds us that we are just wanderers on this earth and that our true happiness is not here but there, in that other and better world known as Paradise or the Heavenly Kingdom. Let man own the whole world and everything that is in it, yet all this will interest him for no more than a short period, while the immortal soul, thirsting for personal communication with God, will remain unsatisfied.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to this earth in order to return to us our lost capacity to spend eternity in the blissful presence of God. He revealed to people that all their evil lies in sin and that no one through their own efforts can overcome the evil within themselves and attain communion with God. Sin, ingrained in our nature since the fall, stands between us and God like a high wall. If the Son of God had not descended to us through His mercy for us, had not taken on our human nature, and had not by His death conquered sin, all mankind would have perished for ever! Now, thanks to Him, those who wish to cleanse themselves from evil can do so and return to God and obtain eternal bliss in the Kingdom of Heaven

Quote
I read the CCC probably a decade ago. Do you plan to go through it all?
I already have.  I've posted chunks before. We'll see how far systematic goes.

As I've said, a lot of the CCC is fine, but parts of it definitely are not, and some call the rest of it into question from our standpoint of the Church.

btw, byzcath had a closed discussion on this
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/305490/12
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 01:09:02 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2010, 01:27:14 PM »

So there are parts of the CCC that agree with and parts that you do not. Is that supposed to surprising?
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2010, 01:37:44 PM »

So there are parts of the CCC that agree with and parts that you do not. Is that supposed to surprising?
Ask Elijahmaria et alia who think there is nothig barring communion.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2010, 01:49:04 PM »

So there are parts of the CCC that agree with and parts that you do not. Is that supposed to surprising?
Ask Elijahmaria et alia who think there is nothig barring communion.

Indeed.  I believe there is nothing in either confession that is worthy of schism.

Do I think that many Orthodox agree? 

I know that some do agree.

Do I worry much about those who do not but think they are qualified as individuals to critique the CCC?

You'd be better off regularizing your own.  It would be a better use of your talents.

In Christ,

M.
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2010, 01:50:17 PM »

So there are parts of the CCC that agree with and parts that you do not. Is that supposed to surprising?
Ask Elijahmaria et alia who think there is nothig barring communion.
Well, I think that it's the polemicists who find the biggest reasons for disunity. There are reasons why we are not ready to be in communion with one another, but I would bet that my list of reasons is shorter than yours.
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2010, 01:58:55 PM »

So there are parts of the CCC that agree with and parts that you do not. Is that supposed to surprising?
Ask Elijahmaria et alia who think there is nothig barring communion.
Well, I think that it's the polemicists who find the biggest reasons for disunity. There are reasons why we are not ready to be in communion with one another, but I would bet that my list of reasons is shorter than yours.
It matters not if you have only one. That's enough.
Matthew 5:19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2010, 02:28:23 PM »

Matthew 5:19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
You are missing the point. Some of ya'll make up problems for the sake disagreeing just because you like to disagree with us "graceless heretics" whenever you get the chance. That is not fruitful.

In response to your quote from the scriptures: All the more reasons for you to join Christ's Church Isa. I am sure we can find you a good RCIA program somewhere.  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2010, 02:59:17 PM »

Matthew 5:19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
You are missing the point. Some of ya'll make up problems for the sake disagreeing just because you like to disagree with us "graceless heretics" whenever you get the chance. That is not fruitful.
If you heretics would stop making up problems we wouldn't have to disagree with you, particularly when you ask us the irrelevant question on whether your church has grace or not.

In response to your quote from the scriptures: All the more reasons for you to join Christ's Church Isa.


Already have:
What the Scripture are saying is what we seem to be saying: "Those who were once enlightened....if they fall away...."

Any Arminian Evangelical would say the same. So let me try again. In the words of Hebrews, you seem to be saying you have no assurance of having "been enlightened".

Not at all. As I confessed at my Chrismation:
Priest. Hast thou renounced all ancient and modern heresies and false doctrines which are contrary to the teachings of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Eastern Church ?

Answer. I have.

Priest. Dost thou desire to be united unto the Holy Orthodox Catholic Eastern Church ?

Answer. I desire it with all my heart.

Bishop. Dost thou believe in one God, who is adored in the holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit : and dost thou worship him as thy King and thy God ?

Answer. I believe in one God who is glorified and adored in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and I worship him as my King and my God.

[Then I made one lowly reverence, kneeling and bowing my head to the earth, and reciting the Creed.

I believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, And of all things visible and invisible:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, Begotten of his Father before all worlds ; Light of Light, Very God of very God, Begotten, not made ; Being of one Essence with the Father; By whom all things were made; Who, for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, And was made man. And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. And the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead ; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets. In one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the Resurrection of the dead, And the Life of the world to come. Amen.

Priest. Blessed is God, who enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world.

Dost thou believe and confess that power hath been given by our Saviour Christ unto the Orthodox-Catholic Church to bind and to loose : and that whatsoever, by virtue of that power, is bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven ?

Answer. I believe and confess it.

Priest. Dost thou believe and confess that the Foundation, Head, and Great High Priest and Chief Shepherd of the Holy OrthodoxCatholic Church is our Lord Jesus Christ; and that Bishops, Pastors and Teachers are appointed by him to rule the Church ; and that the Guide and Pilot of that Church is the Holy Spirit ?

Answer. I believe and confess that this Church is the Bride of Christ, and that therein is true salvation, which was in the Ark of Noah at the Flood.

Priest. Dost thou promise true obedience, unto thy life's end, in guidance which is salutary unto the soul, to the Most Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church in America; to the Most Holy Metropolitan the Equal-of-the-Apostles; and to the Bishop of this Diocese, as the true Pastors appointed by the Holy Spirit; and to the Priests ordained by them ?

Answer. I promise it, with heart unfeigned.

The priest: Tell us of the other dogmas of our Orthodox Church, its Traditions and ordinances ; how thou holdest concerning them ?

And I replied:

I accept and confess the Apostolic and Ecclesiastical Canons, established at the Seven Holy CEcumenical and Provincial Councils, and the other traditions of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Apostolic Church of the East, its rules and ordinances; and I likewise will accept and understand Holy Scripture in accordance with the interpretation which the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East, our Mother, hath held, and doth hold.

I believe and confess that there are Seven Sacraments of the New Testament, to wit: Baptism, Chrismation, the Eucharist, Confession, the Priesthood, Marriage, and Anointing with Oil, instituted by Jesus Christ and his Church, to the end that, through their operation and reception, we may receive blessings from on high.

I believe and confess that, in the Divine Liturgy, under the mystical forms of bread and wine, the faithful partake of the holy Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto the remission of their sins, and unto life eternal.

I believe and confess that it is proper to reverence and invoke the Saints who reign on high with Christ, according to the interpretation of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church of the East; and that their prayers and intercessions avail with the beneficent God unto our salvation : Likewise that it is wellpleasing in the sight of God that we should do homage to their relics, glorified through incorruption, as the precious memorials of their virtues.

I acknowledge that the images of our Saviour Christ, and of the Ever-virgin Mother of God, and of other Saints are worthy to be owned and honoured; not unto idolatry, but that, through contemplation thereof, we may be incited unto piety, and unto emulation of the righteous deeds represented by those images.

I confess that the prayers of the faithful, which are offered up to God for the salvation of those who have departed this life in the faith, are favourably received, through the mercy of God.

I believe and confess that power hath been given by our Saviour Christ unto the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church, to bind and to loose: and that whatsoever, by virtue of that power, is bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven.

I believe and confess that the Foundation, Head,and Great High Priest and Chief Shepherd of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church is our Lord Jesus Christ: and that Bishops, Pastors and Teachers are appointed by him to rule the Church : and that the Guide and Pilot of that Church is the Holy Spirit.

I confess that this Church is the Bride of Christ, and that therein is true salvation.

I promise true obedience, unto my life's end, to the Most Holy Synod of All America and Canada, the Bishop of that Diocese is named, as the true Pastor of the Orthodox Church in America, and to the Priests appointed by them.

Then the  Priest giveth me the end of his priestly stole in his right hand-the symbol of his exercising the authority of the Church-saying;

Enter thou into the Orthodox Church; and cast away all the errors and false doctrines wherein thou hast dwelt: and honour the Lord God, the Father Almighty, and his Only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, one true and living God, the holy Trinity, one in Essence and indivisible.

And having thus spoken, he lead me into the Church, holding the end of the priestly stole, and placed in front of the tribune, where, upon a table, was laid the book of the Holy Gospels ; and when I had taken my place, I immediately let go of the end of the pall from my hand. And as we entered the Church, the Reader read Ps. LXVII  And when the Psalm was finished, the priest commanded me to kneel down before the Holy Gospels. And when I had done this, the priest recited the following Verses :

Send thy Holy Spirit, and they shall be created; and renew the face of the earth.

Turn again, O Lord, how long ? And be entreated for thy servant. The crooked places shall be made straight, and the rough ways plain. O Lord my God, save thy servant, who putteth his trust in thee. Be thou unto him, O Lord, a pillar of strength against the face of the enemy.

Let the enemy in nowise prevail against him, and let not the son of iniquity go about to offend him.

Hear my prayer, O Lord, and let the voice of my cry come unto thee.

O Lord God Almighty, who alone art holy, and restest in the Saints ; who, because of thy great and incalculable love toward mankind, dost alwayoffer unto them that have sinned divers manners of repentance,and dost show unto them that have wandered from the truth the right path unto knowledge of thee, the only true God, who art glorified and adored in the Trinity, that not one of them should perish, but that all may be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth: We thank thee, we glorify thee, and we magnify thee, for that thou hast now shed down into the heart of this, thy reason-endowed creature, Isa, the light which is unto the knowledge of thy truth; and hast graciously enabled him to have recourse unto thy Holy Apostolic Orthodox-Catholic Church. Illumine his heart, O Lord, we humbly beseech thee, with the perfect light of the grace of thy Holy Spirit unto the enlightening of his mind in the truth of thy Holy Gospel. Grant that he may unfeignedly, irrevocably and without hypocrisy unite himself unto thy Holy Catholic Church, and truly accept and confess the Orthodox-Catholic faith. Number him with thy chosen flock, and unite him to the body of thy Holy Church. Make him a vessel of honour, and the temple of thy Holy Spirit; that, being ever nourished and guided by the Same, he may keep thy saving commandments; and that doing thy gracious, acceptable and perfect will, he may be counted worthy to receive thy heavenly good things, together with all those who are well-pleasing in thy sight. For thou art the God of mercy and compassion and love toward mankind, and wiliest that all men should be saved ; and unto thee do we ascribe glory, to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now, and ever, and unto ages of ages. Choir. Amen

And after the Prayer, the priest commanded me to stand, saying :

Rise, and stand aright: stand with fear.

And rising, I said:

This true faith of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church, which I now voluntarily confess and unfeignedly hold, I will firmly maintain and confess whole and in- its fulness and integrity, until my last breath, God being my helper; and will teach it and proclaim it, so far as in me lieth ; and will strive to fulfil its obligations cheerfully and with joy, preserving my heart in purity and virtue. And in confirmation of this, my true and sincere profession of faith, I now kiss the word of Christ my Saviour. Amen.

Then the priest gave me the Holy Gospels and the cross to kiss. And after I had kissed them, he said:

Blessed is God, who willeth that all men should be saved, and should come unto the knowledge of the truth: Blessed is he forevermore. Choir. Amen.

Then he said to me:

Bow thy knees before the Lord God, whom thou hast confessed, and receive remission of thy sins.

And I knelt down and bowed my head, having my eyes cast down.

Then the priest, who received this power from Christ through the hand of the bishop, pronounced

Our Lord and God Jesus Christ committed unto his Apostles the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and bestowed upon them the full power through his grace, both to bind and to loose a man from his sins upon earth : May the same, through his unspeakable mercy, pardon and absolve thee. And I, by his almighty power, given unto me, an unworthy priest, through his holy Apostles and their successors, do pardon and absolve thee, my child Isa, from all thy sins: and do unite thee unto the assembly of the faithful, and unto the body of Christ's Church : and do communicate thee with the Divine Sacraments of the Church: In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Then the priest said to me:

Rise, brother, and as a faithful servant of Jesus Christ pray thou unto him with us, that he will vouchsafe unto thee, through anointment with the holy Chrism, to receive the grace of the Holy Spirit...

...Then the Priest recited this Prayer, aloud, with all attention :

Blessed art thou, O Lord God Almighty, Source of all good things, Sun of Righteousness, who sheddest forth upon them that were in darkness the light of salvation, through the manifestation of thine Only-begotten Son and For thou art our God, and unto thee do we ascribe glory, to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now, and ever, and unto ages of ages.

Choir. Amen.

And after this Prayer, the Priest straightway anointed me with the holy Chrism, making the sign of the cross upon my brow and eyes, and nostrils and lips, and on both ears, and breast, and hands and feet, saying :

The seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

And when this had been done, he said the following Prayer :

0 Lord our God, who hast graciously vouchsafed to show this thy servant, Isa, perfect, through the true faith which is in thee, and through the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit, in thy holy and most heavenly anointing: Do thou, O Lord of all, maintain in him the true faith; further him in righteousness and verity; and adorn him with all thy gifts.

For thou art our God, the God whose property it is to show mercy and to save ; and unto thee do we ascribe glory, to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now, and ever, and unto ages of ages.

Choir. Amen.

Then, taking the sponge, and dipping it in the warm water, he wiped the places which have been anointed with the holy Chrism, saying :

Thou art justified. Thou art illumined. Thou art sanctified; in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God. Thou hast received anointment with the holy Chrism, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now, and ever, and unto ages of ages.

Choir. Amen.

Priest. Peace be with you all.

Choir. And with thy spirit.

Priest. Bow your heads unto the Lord.

Choir. To thee, O Lord.

And all bowed their heads, and the Priest recited, secretly, the following Prayer :

He who hath put on thee, O Christ our God, now boweth his head with us unto thee. Keep him always a warrior invincible in every attack of those who assail him and us: and make us all victors even unto the end, through thy crown incorruptible.[Exclaming]For thy property it is to show mercy and to save ; and unto thee do we ascribe glory, together with thy Father who is from everlasting, and thine all-holy, and good, and life-giving Spirit, now, and ever, and unto ages of ages.

Choir. Amen.
http://books.google.com/books?printsec=frontcover&id=hVIXAAAAYAAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false

And then the Church proceeded to celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil with hymns from the Divine Liturgy of St. James the Brother of God in celebration of the Lord's harrowing of Hell on the mystical and Blessed Sabath, and I received for the first time the Body and Blood of Our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting from the chalice of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, the Ark of Salvation.

Maybe the fault lies with us, for misunderstanding you. However, if you give the impression of having no assurance that you have been enlightened,

We don't give the impression of anything. It is not a question of whether any outsider thinks of us personally as unenlightened. It is the question of them accepting the light of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, to learn how we ought to behave ourselves in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. I Tim. 3:15. Or rejecting her.

Heb. 10:19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

At my Chrismation I placed myself into the hands of the living God and by the hands of His priest I had the boldest to enter into the holiest and partake of the blood of Jesus and His consecrated Flesh, drawing near with the true heart in full assurance of this Faith. My heart in confession is continually sprinkled from an evil conscience, washed with pure tears of repentence, the promise of absolution perfecting what is lacking. Such is mine, if I hold fast as I promised Him that profession of the True Faith of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church to the end, as He says:

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

"Through faith and patience inherit the promises." Not otherwise. For our gospel came not unto un in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as we know what manner of men the Apostles and their successors the bishops of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church are among for our sake. I Thess. 1:5., that our hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; (Col. 2:2)



it is not hard to understand why we conclude you probably haven't been.

Given that you depend on our Scripture, and our transmission of our scripture for a thousand years (until the Mss. your KJV depends on), yes, it would be very hard to understand, if that issue concerned us. Were it not for the Apostolic injunction "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" (I Peter 3:15), it wouldn't concern us at alll.

Knowing this, you might find it in your hearts to forgive us for taking that to be your meaning.
I only fear for you not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in the sacred chrism.

I am sure we can find you a good RCIA program somewhere.  Smiley
Already got a Vatican education.

Yes, always remember, even if the RC *seem* to be doing the same thing as the EO in any given instance, it must nevertheless be different because the RC are *always* wrong.  Grin
At least Catholicism according to ialmisry. I swear sometimes I think he got his education about the Catholic Church from Jack Chick.
I got the only perfect score on the final exams of our class on "Our Catholic Faith." I was also the only one not in communion with the Vatican (though they gave it to me. I didn't drink the kool-aid though).

Papist's "Here is a very simple and straight forward response"
http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
sidesteps the issue of the papacy. Calling priests "father" isn't an issue.
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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2010, 03:33:46 PM »

In response to your quote from the scriptures: All the more reasons for you to join Christ's Church Isa. I am sure we can find you a good RCIA program somewhere.  Smiley

He's already certain that he knows it all!!  laugh  Better than any Catholic.  Knows more history too, though all I've seen thus far is cutting and pasting which even I can do on a good day  angel

M.
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2010, 06:28:17 PM »

In response to your quote from the scriptures: All the more reasons for you to join Christ's Church Isa. I am sure we can find you a good RCIA program somewhere.  Smiley

He's already certain that he knows it all!!  laugh  Better than any Catholic.  Knows more history too, though all I've seen thus far is cutting and pasting which even I can do on a good day  angel

M.
That and polemics, polemics, polemics. His talents would be put to better use as a radio talk show host, than as an EO apologist.
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« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2010, 06:30:44 PM »

If you heretics would stop making up problems we wouldn't have to disagree with you, particularly when you ask us the irrelevant question on whether your church has grace or not.
Haha! You hear that everyone? I am not only a heretic, but I get the distinctive honor of being classified as one of "you hertics". Isa, from you I will take that as a compliment.  Grin
Already have:
Nope. You know I would be happy to tutor your when you are ready.  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2010, 06:33:35 PM »


Already got a Vatican education.

You have been to the Vatican's seminary in Rome? What an incredible honor. No wonder you know so much more about the Catholic faith than Fr. Kimel and Elijahmaria, who are actually educated practicing Catholics.  Roll Eyes

I hope everyone notices the sarcasm in my post. lol
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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2010, 07:43:35 PM »

If you heretics would stop making up problems we wouldn't have to disagree with you, particularly when you ask us the irrelevant question on whether your church has grace or not.
Haha! You hear that everyone? I am not only a heretic, but I get the distinctive honor of being classified as one of "you hertics". Isa, from you I will take that as a compliment.  Grin
Already have:
Nope. You know I would be happy to tutor your when you are ready.  Grin
Mat. 23:15?
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« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2010, 07:46:42 PM »


Already got a Vatican education.

You have been to the Vatican's seminary in Rome? What an incredible honor.

Not there. Though my priest was. In fact, he was there for Vatican II.

Quote
No wonder you know so much more about the Catholic faith than Fr. Kimel and Elijahmaria, who are actually educated practicing Catholics.  Roll Eyes
The Muslims also tell me that I know more about Islam than any Muslim they know, and can't understand why I am not Muslim. Of course, that is the reason.

Quote
I hope everyone notices the sarcasm in my post. lol
Duly noted.
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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2010, 07:53:40 PM »

The Muslims also tell me that I know more about Islam than any Muslim they know, and can't understand why I am not Muslim. Of course, that is the reason.
Oh so you did miss the sarcasm.   Wink    I don't really think you know that much about the Catholic Church because if I did think you were well aquianted with Catholic teaching,  then I would have to accept that you are dishonest because you constantly misrepresent her. Out of charity, I simply assume that you are really ignorant of the matter.
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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2010, 07:54:21 PM »

Not there. Though my priest was. In fact, he was there for Vatican II.
So your priest was educated in a Catholic seminary?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2010, 08:00:29 PM »

Not there. Though my priest was. In fact, he was there for Vatican II.
So your priest was educated in a Catholic seminary?
You mean a seminary run by the Vatican, yes. At least in part.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2010, 08:38:34 PM »

Not there. Though my priest was. In fact, he was there for Vatican II.
So your priest was educated in a Catholic seminary?
You mean a seminary run by the Vatican, yes. At least in part.
I am not sure how "The Vatican" can run something, since it is a place and places don't run anything.
Anywho, was your priest an EO or a Catholic?
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You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Aindriú
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2010, 08:55:47 PM »

LOL, sigh...
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I'm going to need this.
ialmisry
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2010, 09:15:42 PM »

Not there. Though my priest was. In fact, he was there for Vatican II.
So your priest was educated in a Catholic seminary?
You mean a seminary run by the Vatican, yes. At least in part.
I am not sure how "The Vatican" can run something, since it is a place and places don't run anything.

I guess Rome hasn't spoken then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy

Anywho, was your priest an EO or a Catholic?
Episcopalian, IIRC.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2010, 01:03:24 AM »

I have read your first two posts and I don't see anything to disagree with. Of course I would clarify that by "intellect" I do not subscribe to scholasticism which has such a deep and strong place of honor in the West. I read the CCC probably a decade ago. Do you plan to go through it all?

something on a related thread got me thinking:
laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

have fun...

Absolutely meaningless exercise.

Absolutely not!

I have had more than one occaison where I have shown to a person how the CCC is incorrect from an historical and/or theological perspective, and for any die hard Catholic apologist their last desparate response is:

"So what? The CCC is not a reliable source of Catholic teaching anyway!"

 Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes

Fr. Ambrose has repeatedly brought up, for instance the Orthodox belief in the Assumption, how we manage with no conecept of Magisterium, decrees of theological certitude and dogmatic statements  for the sake of dogmatic statements (the last a product of scholasticism, which led to the other two in the Counter-Reformation):the Faith is a package deal. It can't be reduced to checklist of dogma. The Orthodox phronema, mindset, stands in antithesis to the confessionalism which has been cultivated by the Vatican.

That comes into play, therefore, in all manners.

The reason why the OO and EO mergers have not happened, although the theologians have approved the documents is that like us, the OO are not "confessional," and the "whole packages" have yet to be combined (a problem is that there are EO Churches with no real contact with the OO).

It is also why if Met. Zizoulas gets any signatures on his union of Ravenna/Crete/Cyprus, it will not be worth the paper it is on. It is also why, even if the Pope of Rome confessed the Orthodox Faith, there is the question of whether he would be first: the mind whold have to be cleared to acquire the Orthodox mindset.  It is what the EP, in saner days, refered to the ontological difference that had arisen between us and the Vatican.

It is why many Orthodox suspect many converts, because conversion is not agreeing to a wish list of beliefs as a contract, but rather the renouncing of old selected heretical beliefs and the embracing of enumberated dogmas and the Church in general is a symbolic act of accepting the whole, a spiritual merism.

I myself came in as a quia confessional Lutheran, not really believing, for instance the perpetual virginity of the Holy Theotokos or her assumption.  After a period of being absorbed into the Church, rather than trying to absorb it, not believing such things simply ceased to make sense.  No "assent of the will, full assent of faith, etc." needed.

So why bother with the CCC? Because it  a reliable source of the Vatican's teaching
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2010, 08:30:37 AM »


Fr. Ambrose has repeatedly brought up, for instance the Orthodox belief in the Assumption, how we manage with no conecept of Magisterium, decrees of theological certitude and dogmatic statements  for the sake of dogmatic statements (the last a product of scholasticism, which led to the other two in the Counter-Reformation):the Faith is a package deal. It can't be reduced to checklist of dogma. The Orthodox phronema, mindset, stands in antithesis to the confessionalism which has been cultivated by the Vatican.

That comes into play, therefore, in all manners.

The reason why the OO and EO mergers have not happened, although the theologians have approved the documents is that like us, the OO are not "confessional," and the "whole packages" have yet to be combined (a problem is that there are EO Churches with no real contact with the OO).

It is also why if Met. Zizoulas gets any signatures on his union of Ravenna/Crete/Cyprus, it will not be worth the paper it is on. It is also why, even if the Pope of Rome confessed the Orthodox Faith, there is the question of whether he would be first: the mind whold have to be cleared to acquire the Orthodox mindset.  It is what the EP, in saner days, refered to the ontological difference that had arisen between us and the Vatican.

It is why many Orthodox suspect many converts, because conversion is not agreeing to a wish list of beliefs as a contract, but rather the renouncing of old selected heretical beliefs and the embracing of enumberated dogmas and the Church in general is a symbolic act of accepting the whole, a spiritual merism.

I myself came in as a quia confessional Lutheran, not really believing, for instance the perpetual virginity of the Holy Theotokos or her assumption.  After a period of being absorbed into the Church, rather than trying to absorb it, not believing such things simply ceased to make sense.  No "assent of the will, full assent of faith, etc." needed.

So why bother with the CCC? Because it  a reliable source of the Vatican's teaching

The quest for resumption of communion is stronger on both sides today than it has ever been in the history of the schism and it is scaring the bejeekers out of some of you.  Otherwise you'd not be working nearly so hard to convince yourselves and one another that it cannot happen.

The access to one another's texts and the ability to correspond face to face and to forge friendships in faith is greater today than ever before.  The world of open communications will not allow great temporal lapses to occur between us as long as the technology is there to get the messages out.

So the threat of a resumption of communion is very real, and so is the thrashing about by those who would rather die than to commune with Catholics.

It is very sad to watch.

M.

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