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Author Topic: Pleas pray for me - I am a drunk...  (Read 2750 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 25, 2010, 01:47:29 PM »

AA?

This is a split from a thread in the Prayer Forum - Michał Kalina.
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2010, 02:04:08 PM »

I'll pray for you.
Sign up for an AA meeting.
 And do not try to ride a bike or leave your house.
I have heard of incidents when a man who rarely drinks, gets drunk and walks on the road. Then in the middle of the day, another drunken man drives over him. The man drives on and does not notice anything. Two days later at the alcoholic detoxication centre he awakes to find that he can not walk. In Poland, we have this gouvernment institution where they send all the drunken men and even sometimes women to recover from their temporary over-use of alcohol.

Photographic and videographic material seen as perpetuating insensitive stereotypes and deemed inappropriate to the Prayer Forum removed from post  -PtA
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2010, 02:45:31 PM »

Dear folks, I am a drunk, I cannot stop when I start drinking. Almost all my posts to this forum where I showed anger were made when I had a lot to drink. It is killing my wife and me. I want to stop. I will try. Please pray. Thank you so much, all of you.

Please find a chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous close to where you live. They can work wonders. 

Don't delay another day !
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2010, 02:54:34 PM »

Heorhij, I can only reinforce what others have said on this thread--go to the nearest Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, and have your wife join Al-Anon immediately.  Al-Anon is for the family members of alcoholics.

Lord, have mercy on your servant, Heorhij.
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2010, 07:39:02 PM »

Dear folks, I am a drunk, I cannot stop when I start drinking. Almost all my posts to this forum where I showed anger were made when I had a lot to drink. It is killing my wife and me. I want to stop. I will try. Please pray. Thank you so much, all of you.

George,

As someone who has often drank to deal with problems, I understand what you're going through. Ignore the suggestions to go to AA, etc., I'm willing to venture that the cause of the problem is not Alcoholism (and this is coming from an Ulster Scot with a genetic predisposition to Alcoholism Wink), but rather that Alcohol is self-medication...even if you stop drinking, you have not addressed the real problems.

I wish I could offer you a more specific solution to your situation, but I just don't known enough about what's going on. If you want to pm me, feel free to; if you don't, that's fine as well, I know I am one to deal with my own problems on my own and not bring other people into it, so I completely understand if you're the same way.

But, in short, don't focus on the Alcohol, focus on the issue that's bothering you, you don't need to share it with us, you know what's bothering you even more so when drunk than sober. The only advice I can, generically, offer you for dealing with it is don't worry about your presuppositions and don't worry about what other people think, other people are not that important, the only important person is yourself, that and your family is probably essential to your happiness...but no one else and nothing else matters.

Confront what bother's you, everything else will follow.
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2010, 08:23:34 PM »

I have had an issue with alcohol in the past. I have to say that I completely agree with GiC. There is alcohol addiction, it is a real issue. But I think many people don't deal with the reason they drink. If you have an underlying problem then when you stop drinking you will just take up some other vice. My triggers to start drinking in excess again are emotional ones, not the alcohol itself.

I will pray for you.
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« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2010, 09:57:32 PM »

I commend your honesty. We all struggle, just as much but each in different ways. Some struggles are more obvious than others, but sin in no respecter of persons- however, neither is Our Lord!

Personally, I would not recommend AA. My reason is that if you label yourself an "alcoholic" and live every day of your life with the primary goal of not having a drink, then you are still in bondage. Our Lord came to free us from bondage. It may be the reality that you need to stop drinking altogether, but only God can place that on your heart (and I know the advice of your Priest will be valuable in helping you discern this.)

My own sins are too great to judge you, but you will be in my prayers!

"Lord have mercy."


Selam
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2010, 12:59:34 AM »

I commend your honesty. We all struggle, just as much but each in different ways. Some struggles are more obvious than others, but sin in no respecter of persons- however, neither is Our Lord!

Personally, I would not recommend AA. My reason is that if you label yourself an "alcoholic" and live every day of your life with the primary goal of not having a drink, then you are still in bondage. Our Lord came to free us from bondage. It may be the reality that you need to stop drinking altogether, but only God can place that on your heart (and I know the advice of your Priest will be valuable in helping you discern this.)

My own sins are too great to judge you, but you will be in my prayers!

"Lord have mercy."


Selam

You obviously don't understand AA.

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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2010, 01:03:19 AM »

Whether one is an "alcoholic" can be a complicated question.

That you have a problem with alcohol is clear, since you define it as such.

Folks outside of AA (God forbid, many inside) tend to have no idea about the fellowship.

It is not for everyone. It is not a cure all.

If you have an specific questions regarding AA, PM me. I would be please to help you.

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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2010, 02:09:36 AM »

Heorhij,

People are different and there are various approaches.  Some, as stated in this thread, may have underlying issues that led to drink.  For others, myself included, drink led to or worsened issues.  I recommend that you not worry too much about diagnoses, definitions, labels, etc. but about how to become free from this.  You don't have to commit to AA, but it can be a place to learn more and hear from others who have experienced similar problems and found solutions.  Defeating this can be a difficult task, but I was compelled to fight and given the strength to do so.  And for this, I thank God.   

Apologies if my advice or suggestion, coming from a newcomer to the forum, offends in any way.

Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2010, 08:59:15 AM »

I am one of the ones who recommend AA.  For several years they met twice a week in our church hall and I used to go to the open meetings.   I was impressed by the real help that was offered.  I was impressed by the rate of success. I was impressed by the high level of mutual support for one another.   I think that most of all I was impressed by the people themselves who were so unassuming, honest with themselves and with others, charitable and keen to help.  If you have underlying issues which move you to drink,  it is part of the AA programme to help sort them out too.

Also, include the spiritual side.  Discuss it with your priest if you are able and if he is sympathetic.  Make good use of Holy Communion and of prayer.

God bless you. 
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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2010, 12:29:59 PM »

I'd recommend reading the study:

 "A Controlled Experiment on the Use of Court Probation for Drunk Arrests", by Keith S. Ditman, M.D., George C. Crawford, LL.B., Edward W. Forgy, Ph.D., Herbert Moskowitz, Ph.D., and Craig MacAndrew, Ph.D., in the American Journal of Psychiatry.

before starting any 12-step program.
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2010, 10:57:49 AM »

First: Lord, have mercy! Господи, помилуй!

Many folks have urged you join AA and others have been ambivalent or opposed to doing so. Archimandrite Webber, who has a Ph.D. in Psychology is an advocate for AA. Although I am on the staff of a state agency that provides substance abuse services, I am not a clinician but I have rubbed elbows with clinicians and clients for a long time and have come to understand the following:

- For some people, the Lord is sufficient, with or without AA or counseling.
- For many other people, AA has worked wonders, with or without accompanying counseling/therapy.
- For some people, counseling/therapy works, with or without AA.
- With or without AA, the folks on counseling have relapses: on the average, it takes 7 years and 4 relapses for a person to remain in remission. There may be a way to reduce the number of relapses and shorten the time to permanent remission: medication-assisted counseling is very promising, particularly the once-a-month injection of Vivitrol.

Bottom line: it is a long term disease--an infirmity-- and it makes sense not to limit ourselves to only one course of action. Your school's EAP should cover counseling/therapy; while AA and the Lord are always available. Do all three but first read Archimandrite Webber's book.
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2010, 12:40:28 PM »

One more time, dear folks, thank you so much for your prayers. I did not touch liquor for the last 2 days and already feel a bit better about myself. Thomas, - thank you so much; I actually have this Akathist at home, in Ukrainian. GiC and Quinault, - thank you both, I know, it's underlying issues (partially, they are mentioned in my profile - the situation in my home country and the "noncanonical" status of the Orthodox jurisdiction I feel I really belong to). But it's also my laziness, sloppiness, readiness to slurp that "medicine" and feel "better," instead of living my life in a decent way and curbing my passions.

Lesya and I made a treaty that from now on, there will be no hard liquor at our home, and only she will be shopping for wine and beer (at her discretion, not mine). I completely trust her.

Dear Heorhij; Congratulations on your progress so far. One day at a time is the way to go!

May I just point out a few things that may also be of help?

1. The problem is not hard liquor per se. You can self-medicate with beer, wine, and even cough medicine. You must stay away from alcohol. Period.

2. Curbing your passions, your impulses, is hard work and you do need some partners to help you on your journey. A wife is normally is not the best such partner, but your wife may be an exception. That said, please don't make her responsible for keeping you sober and seriously consider AA and/or counseling.

3. Whether in counseling, Church and/or AA), YOU CANNOT CURE YOUR OWN PASSIONS! It is the nature of this disease that the patient cannot heal himself.
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« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2010, 05:39:11 PM »

How many here have actually been physically strung out on liquor? Just wondering how many are speaking from experience.

Heorhij,

Sounds like you are not addicted (physically which ought to be the only way this word is used), since you are not in incredible physical pain or dying.

The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.

Suggesting someone who truly addicted to liquor to stop is about the worst thing imaginable, since stopping can kill them. FWIW, the other substance addition which can be lethal when one just stops is benzodiazepine addiction. People who simply have a drinking problem are another matter, but hard to know over the internet.

When one thinks they might have an addiction to either alcohol or benzos, medical help should be the first help sought.

All other true addicts just suffer the pain with little risk to life and health unless they have underlying complications.

People "addicted" to porn, shopping, TV, etc. are just kidding themselves.

If you are not an alcoholic or currently addicted to alcohol, find refuge in the fact that drinking alcohol involves a series of gross and fine motor movements which everyone I have ever met has complete control over.

Sitting on your hands and feeling miserable when you want to drink, while you find support or whatever else you think might be helpful has a 100% success rate. (Unless you are really handy with your feet or have folks who will pour liquor down your throat . . . )

 
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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2010, 05:55:59 PM »

Lesya and I made a treaty that from now on, there will be no hard liquor at our home, and only she will be shopping for wine and beer (at her discretion, not mine). I completely trust her.

One piece of advice, be careful with the beer.  It sits in the gut longer so has more time to work.  Beer never gave me the insanity that whiskey and vodka did, but it can still get you messed up.

All the same, I know where you are coming from.  God be with you.
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2010, 06:09:40 PM »

How many here have actually been physically strung out on liquor? Just wondering how many are speaking from experience.

Heorhij,

Sounds like you are not addicted (physically which ought to be the only way this word is used), since you are not in incredible physical pain or dying.

The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.

Suggesting someone who truly addicted to liquor to stop is about the worst thing imaginable, since stopping can kill them. FWIW, the other substance addition which can be lethal when one just stops is benzodiazepine addiction. People who simply have a drinking problem are another matter, but hard to know over the internet.

When one thinks they might have an addiction to either alcohol or benzos, medical help should be the first help sought.

All other true addicts just suffer the pain with little risk to life and health unless they have underlying complications.

People "addicted" to porn, shopping, TV, etc. are just kidding themselves.

If you are not an alcoholic or currently addicted to alcohol, find refuge in the fact that drinking alcohol involves a series of gross and fine motor movements which everyone I have ever met has complete control over.

Sitting on your hands and feeling miserable when you want to drink, while you find support or whatever else you think might be helpful has a 100% success rate. (Unless you are really handy with your feet or have folks who will pour liquor down your throat . . . )

 

Vow! This is simply wrong. This is confusing alcoholism with its most extreme manifestation. Here is the definition from Wikipedia, and one which is line with what the addictions field uses in the United States: "Alcoholism, also known as alcohol dependence, is a disabling addictive disorder. It is characterized by compulsive and uncontrolled consumption of alcohol despite its negative effects on the drinker's health, relationships, and social standing. Like other drug addictions, alcoholism is medically defined as a treatable disease." Please note that it is characterized by the inability to stop in spite of the negative effects on one's health, relationships or social standing.

You do not have to be " in incredible physical pain or dying" to be deemed "addicted." If you wait until these symptoms appear, you would have missed all kinds of chances to overcome your addiction, to go into and remain in recovery. In fact, you would be most probably living under a bridge, with no friends or family, no Church, and sick and dying.
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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2010, 09:35:39 PM »

wikipedia is the worst thing ever created since the dictionary.
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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2010, 10:01:40 PM »


The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.


While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I also have one thing to say to you:

Pot, meet Kettle.
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2010, 10:03:49 PM »


You do not have to be " in incredible physical pain or dying" to be deemed "addicted." If you wait until these symptoms appear, you would have missed all kinds of chances to overcome your addiction, to go into and remain in recovery. In fact, you would be most probably living under a bridge, with no friends or family, no Church, and sick and dying.

Indeed.  It depends how one defines addiction.  Nowadays, addiction seems to be heading in the direction of being compelled to satisfy certain seratonin receptors in the brain, a condition that can manifest itself in the form of a physical and psychological dependence. 

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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2010, 11:41:36 PM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2010, 08:50:01 AM »


The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.


While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I also have one thing to say to you:

Pot, meet Kettle.

Have you been strung out on liquor or do you actually do real research in the field? Not have some silly addiction studies certificate or took a few classes within a psych or social working program.

If not, then my experience outstrips yours.
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2010, 08:50:14 AM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?

No.
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2010, 09:37:56 AM »


The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.


While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I also have one thing to say to you:

Pot, meet Kettle.

Have you been strung out on liquor or do you actually do real research in the field? Not have some silly addiction studies certificate or took a few classes within a psych or social working program.

If not, then my experience outstrips yours.

You lambasted people for anonymously giving advice on the internet to people they don't know, then you proceed to do the same.  Hence, my comment.  Had you not employed the know-it-all rhetoric in the sentence I quoted, I would have probably not made such a comment.  However, upon reflection, I shouldn't have done it in the first place as it has no place in this thread which is about Heorhij.  Please, forgive.

Indeed, our bickering is pointless.  Let's just try and help Heorhij deal with his own demons.  It doesn't matter if he's physically dependent on alcohol or not.  His is a soul in anguish.  For most of the posters on OC.net, that's simply praying for him.  For those of us who have either struggled with alcohol in the past or are close to those who do (as opposed to the "casual experience" you so eloquently dismiss), we can offer some practical advice and (more importantly) encouragement.
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2010, 11:03:05 AM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?

Absolutely not! Wherever did you hear such a thing? I personally know 3 recovering alcoholics, all 3 are Orthodox, 2 still attend their AA meetings regularly and all 3 partake of the Eucharist.
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2010, 01:09:42 PM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?

Absolutely not! Wherever did you hear such a thing? I personally know 3 recovering alcoholics, all 3 are Orthodox, 2 still attend their AA meetings regularly and all 3 partake of the Eucharist.

I know people too like that. I would urge caution though especially if your church offers more wine and antidorn to wash down the communion bread and wine. A nice long swig of Manichevitz looks to me like falling off the wagon.
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2010, 03:01:29 PM »


The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.


While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I also have one thing to say to you:

Pot, meet Kettle.

Have you been strung out on liquor or do you actually do real research in the field? Not have some silly addiction studies certificate or took a few classes within a psych or social working program.

If not, then my experience outstrips yours.

You lambasted people for anonymously giving advice on the internet to people they don't know, then you proceed to do the same.  Hence, my comment.  Had you not employed the know-it-all rhetoric in the sentence I quoted, I would have probably not made such a comment.  However, upon reflection, I shouldn't have done it in the first place as it has no place in this thread which is about Heorhij.  Please, forgive.

Indeed, our bickering is pointless.  Let's just try and help Heorhij deal with his own demons.  It doesn't matter if he's physically dependent on alcohol or not.  His is a soul in anguish.  For most of the posters on OC.net, that's simply praying for him.  For those of us who have either struggled with alcohol in the past or are close to those who do (as opposed to the "casual experience" you so eloquently dismiss), we can offer some practical advice and (more importantly) encouragement.

Yes, suggesting getting medical advice is insane.
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2010, 03:08:02 PM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?

Absolutely not! Wherever did you hear such a thing? I personally know 3 recovering alcoholics, all 3 are Orthodox, 2 still attend their AA meetings regularly and all 3 partake of the Eucharist.

I know people too like that. I would urge caution though especially if your church offers more wine and antidorn to wash down the communion bread and wine. A nice long swig of Manichevitz looks to me like falling off the wagon.

Some "alcoholics" and persons formerly physically addicted to liquor are able to drink moderately.

Having spent thousands of hours with "problem" drinkers of all varieties, including housing them and living side by side with them, there are no absolute rules. That is also the official stance taken by the any AA approved literature.

The only bad advice to a problem drinker IS as I mentioned telling them stop without medical supervision.
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« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2010, 03:27:48 PM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?

Absolutely not! Wherever did you hear such a thing? I personally know 3 recovering alcoholics, all 3 are Orthodox, 2 still attend their AA meetings regularly and all 3 partake of the Eucharist.

I know people too like that. I would urge caution though especially if your church offers more wine and antidorn to wash down the communion bread and wine. A nice long swig of Manichevitz looks to me like falling off the wagon.

Some "alcoholics" and persons formerly physically addicted to liquor are able to drink moderately.

Having spent thousands of hours with "problem" drinkers of all varieties, including housing them and living side by side with them, there are no absolute rules. That is also the official stance taken by the any AA approved literature.

The only bad advice to a problem drinker IS as I mentioned telling them stop without medical supervision.

I am glad that you clarified your advice. I think most of us were alarmed by the following: "Sounds like you are not addicted (physically which ought to be the only way this word is used), since you are not in incredible physical pain or dying...Suggesting someone who truly addicted to liquor to stop is about the worst thing imaginable, since stopping can kill them. FWIW, the other substance addition which can be lethal when one just stops is benzodiazepine addiction." Somebody who needs detox NOW must indeed be under medical supervision. Other "problem" drinkers not so; I am talking about ASAM levels for outpatient and intensive outpatient treatment primarily. By the way, if one goes to any certified substance abuse clinician, he/she will assess you first and will make sure that you get medical care if it is so indicated. I would imagine that anyone attending an AA meeting with the DTs would also be taken posthaste to a detox facility. I am not about to pass judgment on someone who is trying to do this strictly through the Church, but the odds are that there will be somebody there (priest, deacon, fellow congregant) who will recognize a medical emergency (such as the DTs) and will take the correct action.

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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2010, 08:32:18 PM »

Sounds like you are not addicted (physically which ought to be the only way this word is used), since you are not in incredible physical pain or dying.

The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.

Suggesting someone who truly addicted to liquor to stop is about the worst thing imaginable, since stopping can kill them. FWIW, the other substance addition which can be lethal when one just stops is benzodiazepine addiction. People who simply have a drinking problem are another matter, but hard to know over the internet.

You're right, if someone is actually addicted to alcohol, they should not, under any circumstance, try to stop without medical supervision. But as  you mention, what's being discussed here isn't actual addiction and most real alcoholics already know this, which is why all of them that I've known have checked themselves into the hospital before even attempting to DT. So I have to wonder why you bring this up in this thread?
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« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2010, 01:50:08 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

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« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2010, 02:07:32 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.
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« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2010, 10:13:53 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.

Go back to google. When you have actually accumulated experience in the world in this area we'll chat again.

Your noble, privileged view of humanity has all the arrogance of sophomore, misunderstanding Nietzsche for the first time.

/thread
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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2010, 11:32:47 AM »

The matter of addiction can be broken down into two components: physical dependency and emotional/mental addiction.  Getting off the physical part can be risky outside a medical environment if DTs manifest.  Folks die from this all the time.  Counseling on its own is not usually successful for treating the mental side, mostly because counseling involves manipulating the will to change.  Most alcoholics and addicts would rather die than change.  Actually, that's also true for 'normal people' as well.

For those who do decide to change, my observation has been not that they want to quit, since quitting becomes impossible once the meotional dependency is established and the will is compromised, but rather that the alcoholic decides to pursue a new direction towards happiness.  Most addicts are lousy at really being happy, which is why they use.  Getting free of the substance means having a new vision of happiness and joy which enables the person to experience their suffering without medication.

The only reliably successful means of drumming up the courage to do that is the belief in something beyond the person who is capable of helping the person endure his suffering.  For most folks, that's where the need for God comes in.  And, like it or not, it works.  Call it superstition, but AA and such spiritually-based systems are much more effective than rational counseling.

AA can be done in an Orthodox context.  That's what I'm working on with the Romanian Orthodox Church.  The method of the 12-Steps is close enough to Orthodox asceticism that it can be worked with few modifications.

The important part is to remember that addicts can't 'quit,' which is the very nature of addiction.  The 'Big Book' of AA mentions this in 'Bill's Story.'  He never said he quit, but that he was 'separated' for alcohol.  This nuance can mean all the difference in the world.
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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2010, 12:10:26 PM »

The matter of addiction can be broken down into two components: physical dependency and emotional/mental addiction.  Getting off the physical part can be risky outside a medical environment if DTs manifest.  Folks die from this all the time.  Counseling on its own is not usually successful for treating the mental side, mostly because counseling involves manipulating the will to change.  Most alcoholics and addicts would rather die than change.  Actually, that's also true for 'normal people' as well.

For those who do decide to change, my observation has been not that they want to quit, since quitting becomes impossible once the meotional dependency is established and the will is compromised, but rather that the alcoholic decides to pursue a new direction towards happiness.  Most addicts are lousy at really being happy, which is why they use.  Getting free of the substance means having a new vision of happiness and joy which enables the person to experience their suffering without medication.

The only reliably successful means of drumming up the courage to do that is the belief in something beyond the person who is capable of helping the person endure his suffering.  For most folks, that's where the need for God comes in.  And, like it or not, it works.  Call it superstition, but AA and such spiritually-based systems are much more effective than rational counseling.

AA can be done in an Orthodox context.  That's what I'm working on with the Romanian Orthodox Church.  The method of the 12-Steps is close enough to Orthodox asceticism that it can be worked with few modifications.

The important part is to remember that addicts can't 'quit,' which is the very nature of addiction.  The 'Big Book' of AA mentions this in 'Bill's Story.'  He never said he quit, but that he was 'separated' for alcohol.  This nuance can mean all the difference in the world.


I don't know where you get your data from but every study I've read shows that 12-step programs are no more successful (and often LESS successful) than people quitting on their own. The study I posted above is one such example of quitting on one's own being more successful than both 12-step programs AND professional counseling.

Join a 12-step program if you want to be a member of a cult; if you actually want to break an addiction, just stop using.
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« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2010, 12:22:52 PM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.

Go back to google. When you have actually accumulated experience in the world in this area we'll chat again.

So, am I to assume that you're contesting the fact that Detoxing, if performed in ICU under proper medical supervision, is generally not fatal? Really, what's your real world experience on the matter? How many people do you known who checked themselves into the hospital before detoxing, died as a result?

The idiots you knew who didn't bother to take the proper medical precautions don't count.

Quote
Your noble, privileged view of humanity has all the arrogance of sophomore, misunderstanding Nietzsche for the first time.

I'll take that as a compliment since I think Nietzsche one of the VERY few philosophers throughout history with even an ounce of common sense.

And I wouldn't call my views very privileged, natural selection doesn't just apply to humanity, it applies to all species. Just as the slow gazelle is eaten by the lion and the absent-minded rabbit is eaten by the hawk, so also is the stupid human removed from our gene pool...hopefully at a young enough age such that they haven't had the opportunity to reproduce.
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2010, 12:58:44 PM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2010, 01:01:11 PM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.

Go back to google. When you have actually accumulated experience in the world in this area we'll chat again.

So, am I to assume that you're contesting the fact that Detoxing, if performed in ICU under proper medical supervision, is generally not fatal? Really, what's your real world experience on the matter? How many people do you known who checked themselves into the hospital before detoxing, died as a result?

The idiots you knew who didn't bother to take the proper medical precautions don't count.

Quote
Your noble, privileged view of humanity has all the arrogance of sophomore, misunderstanding Nietzsche for the first time.

I'll take that as a compliment since I think Nietzsche one of the VERY few philosophers throughout history with even an ounce of common sense.

And I wouldn't call my views very privileged, natural selection doesn't just apply to humanity, it applies to all species. Just as the slow gazelle is eaten by the lion and the absent-minded rabbit is eaten by the hawk, so also is the stupid human removed from our gene pool...hopefully at a young enough age such that they haven't had the opportunity to reproduce.

Have you been drinking?  Wink
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 01:01:38 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2010, 01:02:30 PM »





Let's keep this focused on the OP and Heorhij.  If you want to discuss the ups and downs of a 12-step program vis-a-vis "just quitting", start another thread, please.

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« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2010, 01:22:40 PM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.

Go back to google. When you have actually accumulated experience in the world in this area we'll chat again.

So, am I to assume that you're contesting the fact that Detoxing, if performed in ICU under proper medical supervision, is generally not fatal? Really, what's your real world experience on the matter? How many people do you known who checked themselves into the hospital before detoxing, died as a result?

The idiots you knew who didn't bother to take the proper medical precautions don't count.

Quote
Your noble, privileged view of humanity has all the arrogance of sophomore, misunderstanding Nietzsche for the first time.

I'll take that as a compliment since I think Nietzsche one of the VERY few philosophers throughout history with even an ounce of common sense.

And I wouldn't call my views very privileged, natural selection doesn't just apply to humanity, it applies to all species. Just as the slow gazelle is eaten by the lion and the absent-minded rabbit is eaten by the hawk, so also is the stupid human removed from our gene pool...hopefully at a young enough age such that they haven't had the opportunity to reproduce.

Have you been drinking?  Wink

Not as much as I'd like to. Been busy at work, the long hours kinda cut into my drinking time. Wink
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« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2010, 01:23:43 PM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.

Go back to google. When you have actually accumulated experience in the world in this area we'll chat again.

So, am I to assume that you're contesting the fact that Detoxing, if performed in ICU under proper medical supervision, is generally not fatal? Really, what's your real world experience on the matter? How many people do you known who checked themselves into the hospital before detoxing, died as a result?

The idiots you knew who didn't bother to take the proper medical precautions don't count.

Quote
Your noble, privileged view of humanity has all the arrogance of sophomore, misunderstanding Nietzsche for the first time.

I'll take that as a compliment since I think Nietzsche one of the VERY few philosophers throughout history with even an ounce of common sense.

And I wouldn't call my views very privileged, natural selection doesn't just apply to humanity, it applies to all species. Just as the slow gazelle is eaten by the lion and the absent-minded rabbit is eaten by the hawk, so also is the stupid human removed from our gene pool...hopefully at a young enough age such that they haven't had the opportunity to reproduce.

Have you been drinking?  Wink

Not as much as I'd like to. Been busy at work, the long hours kinda cut into my drinking time. Wink

So it's work exhaustion, good to know!  Wink
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 01:24:04 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2010, 12:18:21 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.
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« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2010, 02:30:24 AM »

Lord Have Mercy!
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« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2010, 02:32:19 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!
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« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2010, 02:55:55 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

JNORM, have you ever noticed how the atheistic naturalists want to weed out the religious, the mentally retarded, the unborn, the Africans (and other "dead weight of human waste" as Margaret Sanger called them), but they never want to weed out themselves? My family wouldn't stand a chance if Gic were in charge of the world. My wife is Black, our children are "half breeds," our infant daughter is mentally retarded, and we are all Christians!

"Lord have mercy indeed!"


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« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2010, 03:17:20 AM »

JNORM, have you ever noticed how the atheistic naturalists want to weed out the religious, the mentally retarded, the unborn, the Africans (and other "dead weight of human waste" as Margaret Sanger called them), but they never want to weed out themselves? My family wouldn't stand a chance if Gic were in charge of the world. My wife is Black, our children are "half breeds," our infant daughter is mentally retarded, and we are all Christians!

I find your post to be intellectually dishonest, and frankly, libelous (not that GIC really cares, after all he tries to stir things up, but still...). What does your wife being black, or your children being multiracial, have to do with anything or anyone on this thread? To challenge him on what he would do with the mentally handicapped is, I think, a perfectly valid thing to do, but the other stuff is just silly.
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« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2010, 03:22:54 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

I wouldn't call it hatred, on a personal level, I'm indifferent towards them. I am simply concerned about the impact their genes have on the human species.
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« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2010, 03:25:23 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

JNORM, have you ever noticed how the atheistic naturalists want to weed out the religious, the mentally retarded, the unborn, the Africans (and other "dead weight of human waste" as Margaret Sanger called them), but they never want to weed out themselves? My family wouldn't stand a chance if Gic were in charge of the world. My wife is Black, our children are "half breeds," our infant daughter is mentally retarded, and we are all Christians!

"Lord have mercy indeed!"


Selam

Yeah, and this is one of the reasons why I am skeptical about what Bill Gates is trying to do with his nonprophit organization. It seems to be nothing more than one huge Eugenics front. He is spending billions on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUJMR3BUm2s&feature=related

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« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2010, 03:26:22 AM »

I see now that I didn't say anything before about the original topic. I meant to, but wondered if I should say anything, as what I have to say is personal (and I realise that I am sometimes too revealing of my personal life for the tastes of some here). However, I will say that my thoughts are with you Heorhij. Both my father and mother-in-law struggle with this issue, and I've seen up close how difficult a struggle it can be.
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« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2010, 03:28:58 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

I wouldn't call it hatred, on a personal level, I'm indifferent towards them. I am simply concerned about the impact their genes have on the human species.

And you call yourself a moral atheist? I'm sure there are some KKK that don't hate me, they just are indifferent towards people that look like me.

Also, what makes you different from the Communists that killed millions of innocent people through starvation and other means?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 03:36:48 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2010, 03:33:46 AM »

JNORM, have you ever noticed how the atheistic naturalists want to weed out the religious, the mentally retarded, the unborn, the Africans (and other "dead weight of human waste" as Margaret Sanger called them), but they never want to weed out themselves? My family wouldn't stand a chance if Gic were in charge of the world. My wife is Black, our children are "half breeds," our infant daughter is mentally retarded, and we are all Christians!

I find your post to be intellectually dishonest, and frankly, libelous (not that GIC really cares, after all he tries to stir things up, but still...). What does your wife being black, or your children being multiracial, have to do with anything or anyone on this thread? To challenge him on what he would do with the mentally handicapped is, I think, a perfectly valid thing to do, but the other stuff is just silly.

What do you know about the Eugenics movement? I think what he said was spot on!
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« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2010, 03:34:52 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

JNORM, have you ever noticed how the atheistic naturalists want to weed out the religious, the mentally retarded, the unborn, the Africans (and other "dead weight of human waste" as Margaret Sanger called them), but they never want to weed out themselves? My family wouldn't stand a chance if Gic were in charge of the world. My wife is Black, our children are "half breeds," our infant daughter is mentally retarded, and we are all Christians!

"Lord have mercy indeed!"


Selam

I have nothing against people on account of their race, gender, national origin, or sexual orientation and though I think all religions are absurd, I only take issue with a person's religious beliefs when they contradict scientific knowledge.

Now as for whether your daughter's 'mentally retarded' or not, I don't know...I do know that most parents of mentally handicapped children are quite offended by that term. However, I don't really care about that either. All that I suggest is an objective test of knowledge and intelligence and that those who score below the 50th percentile (cumulative for the past 5 years or so, to provide some stability to the system) not be allowed to reproduce. No gas chambers or death camps, nothing so dramatic as you people like to pretend, just simple sterilization then they can live their lives when they see fit.

This way, in 60-80 years when nature runs its course the human species will have been improved. Now some may argue that this is artificial, not natural, selection, which is true. However, we have allowed the stupid and ignorant to benefit from the advances of the intelligent...we give a person with an 80 IQ the same heart medication as the inventor of said heart medication; we have interfered with the processes of natural selection so if we want our species to continue to improve it would be reasonable to create a viable replacement.
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« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2010, 03:38:59 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

I wouldn't call it hatred, on a personal level, I'm indifferent towards them. I am simply concerned about the impact their genes have on the human species.

And you call yourself a moral atheist? I'm sure there are some KKK that don't hate me, they just are indifferent towards people that look like me.

If you actually believe that, I can only assume you haven't met too many klansmen. But don't worry, under my proposal the majority of them would probably end up sterilized, so unable to reproduce.

Quote
Also, what makes you different from the Communists that killed millions of innocent people through starvation and other means?

While I may not express any sorrow over people dying as a result of their own stupidity, I haven't advocated killing anyone either.
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« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2010, 03:41:42 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

JNORM, have you ever noticed how the atheistic naturalists want to weed out the religious, the mentally retarded, the unborn, the Africans (and other "dead weight of human waste" as Margaret Sanger called them), but they never want to weed out themselves? My family wouldn't stand a chance if Gic were in charge of the world. My wife is Black, our children are "half breeds," our infant daughter is mentally retarded, and we are all Christians!

"Lord have mercy indeed!"


Selam

I have nothing against people on account of their race, gender, national origin, or sexual orientation and though I think all religions are absurd, I only take issue with a person's religious beliefs when they contradict scientific knowledge.

Now as for whether your daughter's 'mentally retarded' or not, I don't know...I do know that most parents of mentally handicapped children are quite offended by that term. However, I don't really care about that either. All that I suggest is an objective test of knowledge and intelligence and that those who score below the 50th percentile (cumulative for the past 5 years or so, to provide some stability to the system) not be allowed to reproduce. No gas chambers or death camps, nothing so dramatic as you people like to pretend, just simple sterilization then they can live their lives when they see fit.

This way, in 60-80 years when nature runs its course the human species will have been improved. Now some may argue that this is artificial, not natural, selection, which is true. However, we have allowed the stupid and ignorant to benefit from the advances of the intelligent...we give a person with an 80 IQ the same heart medication as the inventor of said heart medication; we have interfered with the processes of natural selection so if we want our species to continue to improve it would be reasonable to create a viable replacement.

This is subjective and no different from the animal farm scenario. For what if those with an IQ of 170 want to kill or make sterile those with an IQ below 150?

It shouldn't be up to you or anyone to play god, to decide who lives and who dies....or who gets to reproduce vs who doesn't.
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« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2010, 03:46:40 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

JNORM, have you ever noticed how the atheistic naturalists want to weed out the religious, the mentally retarded, the unborn, the Africans (and other "dead weight of human waste" as Margaret Sanger called them), but they never want to weed out themselves? My family wouldn't stand a chance if Gic were in charge of the world. My wife is Black, our children are "half breeds," our infant daughter is mentally retarded, and we are all Christians!

"Lord have mercy indeed!"


Selam

Yeah, and this is one of the reasons why I am skeptical about what Bill Gates is trying to do with his nonprophit organization. It seems to be nothing more than one huge Eugenics front. He is spending billions on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUJMR3BUm2s&feature=related




Exactly! I remember some years ago having a debate with my father because he couldn't understand why I wasn't enthused by the Warren Buffet donation to Bill Gates' foundation. I know what these people are up to in Africa, and I know the racist ideology behind it.


Selam
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« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2010, 03:49:10 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

I wouldn't call it hatred, on a personal level, I'm indifferent towards them. I am simply concerned about the impact their genes have on the human species.

And you call yourself a moral atheist? I'm sure there are some KKK that don't hate me, they just are indifferent towards people that look like me.

If you actually believe that, I can only assume you haven't met too many klansmen. But don't worry, under my proposal the majority of them would probably end up sterilized, so unable to reproduce.

Quote
Also, what makes you different from the Communists that killed millions of innocent people through starvation and other means?

While I may not express any sorrow over people dying as a result of their own stupidity, I haven't advocated killing anyone either.

Not every KKK person hate black folk or is a radical in that way. There are some who hang around black folk, hire black folk, work with black folk, have affairs with black folk, and actually help out black folk from time to time. And it's been this way for over a hundred years. At the end of the day most of them are just people. Your average everyday person.

Blacks were able to survive in the south for a reason. And no, I don't want them killed nor made sterile. They have every right to live and reproduce as me. I don't hate them and I feel in this country they should have the freedom to hate me with speech, but not with actions.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 03:55:37 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2010, 03:58:49 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

JNORM, have you ever noticed how the atheistic naturalists want to weed out the religious, the mentally retarded, the unborn, the Africans (and other "dead weight of human waste" as Margaret Sanger called them), but they never want to weed out themselves? My family wouldn't stand a chance if Gic were in charge of the world. My wife is Black, our children are "half breeds," our infant daughter is mentally retarded, and we are all Christians!

"Lord have mercy indeed!"


Selam

Yeah, and this is one of the reasons why I am skeptical about what Bill Gates is trying to do with his nonprophit organization. It seems to be nothing more than one huge Eugenics front. He is spending billions on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUJMR3BUm2s&feature=related




Exactly! I remember some years ago having a debate with my father because he couldn't understand why I wasn't enthused by the Warren Buffet donation to Bill Gates' foundation. I know what these people are up to in Africa, and I know the racist ideology behind it.


Selam

Do you have any resources? I would be more than happy to read it!
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« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2010, 04:21:51 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

JNORM, have you ever noticed how the atheistic naturalists want to weed out the religious, the mentally retarded, the unborn, the Africans (and other "dead weight of human waste" as Margaret Sanger called them), but they never want to weed out themselves? My family wouldn't stand a chance if Gic were in charge of the world. My wife is Black, our children are "half breeds," our infant daughter is mentally retarded, and we are all Christians!

"Lord have mercy indeed!"


Selam

I have nothing against people on account of their race, gender, national origin, or sexual orientation and though I think all religions are absurd, I only take issue with a person's religious beliefs when they contradict scientific knowledge.

Now as for whether your daughter's 'mentally retarded' or not, I don't know...I do know that most parents of mentally handicapped children are quite offended by that term. However, I don't really care about that either. All that I suggest is an objective test of knowledge and intelligence and that those who score below the 50th percentile (cumulative for the past 5 years or so, to provide some stability to the system) not be allowed to reproduce. No gas chambers or death camps, nothing so dramatic as you people like to pretend, just simple sterilization then they can live their lives when they see fit.

This way, in 60-80 years when nature runs its course the human species will have been improved. Now some may argue that this is artificial, not natural, selection, which is true. However, we have allowed the stupid and ignorant to benefit from the advances of the intelligent...we give a person with an 80 IQ the same heart medication as the inventor of said heart medication; we have interfered with the processes of natural selection so if we want our species to continue to improve it would be reasonable to create a viable replacement.

This is subjective and no different from the animal farm scenario. For what if those with an IQ of 170 want to kill or make sterile those with an IQ below 150?

Again, I don't advocate killing anyone, but as for making people sterile, I would think that making the cutoff the 50% percentile would be more logical than the 99.9% for no other reason than we want to control the rate of change. If we didn't allow 99.9% of the population to reproduce the change in population would probably be too rapid for us to deal with, but if we merely cut the birth rate in half that would be more manageable. Furthermore your recommendation would lead to issues related to genetic diversity. It doesn't seem like you thought this out too well. What I'm suggesting really isn't that radical, if you have under a 100 IQ you're already too stupid to hold a conversation with, I have a sister who probably has an IQ in the 90's, I'd rather pull a tooth out with a pair of pliers than try to have a conversation with her about anything more sophisticated than her social life...she got short-changed with the chromosomes, I sill love her, but she doesn't have any business reproducing. Fortunately, she's at least smart enough to not want kids.

Quote
It shouldn't be up to you or anyone to play god, to decide who lives and who dies....or who gets to reproduce vs who doesn't.

Fine, then they shouldn't get the benefits derived from smart people. No cars, no internet, no modern medicine, no modern agriculture, no modern industrial infrastructure. They get sick, unless they can treat themselves, they die; if they can't figure out how to farm or they can't acquire the land to farm, they die.

Others have already played god by giving air travel to people who can't even solve a differential equation and heart medication to those ignorant of even basic biochemistry. So, its not unreasonable that those ignorant of such basic things have artificial limitations imposed on their reproduction by those who have removed the natural ones. They're still free to live their lives as they please, have whatever partners they want, and so forth, just not reproduce.

And even those who could reproduce should not be without limits. Those who are more intelligent should be allowed to reproduce more than those who are less intelligent (though the reality is that they most likely won't), and overall our the birth rate should be controlled so that we average no more than one child per two adults (two children per two adults allowed to reproduce, the upper 50 percentile)...at least until we get our population under control. The United States has about 2-3 times as many people as we need, most of Europe and Asia is MUCH worse.

So stop overreacting, I'm not proposing something absurd and radical, I'm just proposing common sense.
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Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
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Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2010, 06:39:31 AM »

What do you know about the Eugenics movement? I think what he said was spot on!

No, but I've been looking around the last couple hours for books that I can buy to learn more, and have been following the thread with interest.
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Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
NorthernPines
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« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2010, 11:03:08 AM »

All that I suggest is an objective test of knowledge and intelligence and that those who score below the 50th percentile (cumulative for the past 5 years or so, to provide some stability to the system) not be allowed to reproduce.  No gas chambers or death camps, nothing so dramatic as you people like to pretend, just simple sterilization then they can live their lives when they see fit.

But who are YOU to determine who gets to reproduce and who doesn't? This is a radically unscientific and quite Fundamentalist approach and worldview to have.

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This way, in 60-80 years when nature runs its course the human species will have been improved.

Apparently Carl Sagan was wrong. The art of prophecy is not lost as you seem to have it.

The problem with your statements is that they must be taken on,  for lack of a better word, on faith. You have no idea what the outcome of such breeding control would lead to. If someone like Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins was reading this he would be ashamed of what you are writing. What you are proposing is no different than when some ultra right wing Catholics says outrageous things like "we better breed more because if we don't the Muslims will out number us!"

GiC certainly you, an intelligent person can see that such population control such as you are proposing is in a sense  Fundamentalist in nature. You have the whole of the world, evolution, the future of humanity all figured out, and you're going to tell us in an attempt to "save us". You have answers to questions that no one has the answers to. You are in fact proving the very point that many of the New Atheists often make, that Communism, Stalin and places like North Korea commit evils not because they are atheist, or in the name of atheism, but because the "atheism" is really but a cover for a weird sort of pseudo-scientific, pseudo-religious world view.

Atheists are supposed to be rational and compassionate. Most in fact are. Probably more rational than most religious people. I'm sure you are too. As you said you're not suggesting anyone be killed, but yet here you are suggesting irrational things, like how you somehow know population control will in fact "improve" humanity. In reality you have no idea how such a thing would in fact play out. Chaos theory pretty much guarantees that. for all you know it could split off humanity into two species and we could destroy one another. And even if you're scenario worked and in fact humanity got a whole lot "more intelligent", if we lose our compassion in the process is the cost of that loss actually worth it?



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Now some may argue that this is artificial, not natural, selection, which is true. However, we have allowed the stupid and ignorant to benefit from the advances of the intelligent...we give a person with an 80 IQ the same heart medication as the inventor of said heart medication; we have interfered with the processes of natural selection so if we want our species to continue to improve it would be reasonable to create a viable replacement.

We also  "allow" you to benefit from the stronger and more fit, from the inventor of new medications etc. Farmers, who likely don't have as high of an IQ as you do, "allow" you to eat their food and not starve to death. Could you fend for yourself if tomorrow all our technology came crashing down around us? The farmer or the woodsmen certainly could but could you? In such a scenario all of a sudden your IQ might mean absolutely nothing. All the book learning in the world would mean nothing. You claim you want to advance humanity but how is humanity advanced if we begin to so the exact same thing Religious fanatics have done for thousands of years, but we simply substitute "heretics" with "stupid people!" What makes a "stupid" person anyway? Where do you draw the line between someone who "contributes to society" and one who doesn't? And on who's authority do we then decide someone who is "contributing" enough and someone who is not? What about all the geniuses in the world, who for all their brilliance and intellect contributed absolutely nothing to society but horror, death and mayhem. Geniuses invented the atom bomb. So should we now take all "geniuses" and sterilize them? Or maybe just all physicists?

And again, who determines who is contributing and who is not? You? What gives you that authority? Maybe I should be the authority? How do we determine this? By the evolutionary model? Okay. The classic expression of that would be if I kill you with my bare hands I choose, if you kill me with your bare hands then you get to choose! But that doesn't seem like a very rational or intelligent way of solving problems or the dangers our species may face in the future.

Oh yes, you said you're not in favor of killing anyone. conceded. Only for sterilizing. Well maybe our fight to the death can merely be a fight and if I rip off your testicles I win. And vice versa. Chimpanzees our closest relatives do it. Why not us? Of course you're suggesting something painless, with medication and doctors. But it's still the dominance hierarchy. You're still the "alpha male" trying to impose your will upon an "out group". For you the "out group" is people with low IQs. But it's the imposition of one will over another weaker group all for a "cause" of bettering humanity in the far future. Dialogue, discussion about ethics, reproduction, and genetics doesn't get us very far, so why not go with the old stand by; my way or the highway?



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 and overall our the birth rate should be controlled so that we average no more than one child per two adults (two children per two adults allowed to reproduce, the upper 50 percentile)...at least until we get our population under control. The United States has about 2-3 times as many people as we need, most of Europe and Asia is MUCH worse.


Please don't conflate the very real topic of population control with breeding control. They are two very different things and you will do no good to anyone by confusing the two subjects.



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So stop overreacting, I'm not proposing something absurd and radical, I'm just proposing common sense.

First, what you are proposing is quite radical. Many atheists would find you to be on the extreme end of the spectrum here. And some like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris would probably even suggest that you were proposing a new form of "religious thinking" in the guise of science. This really surprises me actually because while I find I disagree with you often enough, I find your arguments to be sound and quite convincing. But this is just a bit out there.

You seem to be looking for a future "golden age" of humanity where everyone is really, really smart. But at what cost? And what if in fact tomorrow, an alien species came here and decided to sterilize ALL of humanity because they deemed we were all just too stupid to reproduce. Would that be something you'd be in favor of? Maybe you would actually. At least that would be consistent. However it still seems to me just as another form of a dominance hierarchy, which most atheists find to be deplorable in religion, but superimposed upon science. For me the question boils down to "who decides"? By what authority? Science has no "authority" so it(or something) would essentially need a dictator to determine who gets to reproduce and who doesn't, but all for the betterment of humanity of course!

 This reminds of the movie I-Robot where the mother computer reprograms all the robots to turn the world into a dictatorship (with her in charge of course) all so that humanity would be "better off". She doesn't advocate violence or killing anyone either. But most people intuitively "know" that she is the villain, not the hero.  I suppose you would side with the computer though and not Will Smith, which is sci-fi heresy to go against Will Smith! Wink


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