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Author Topic: Pleas pray for me - I am a drunk...  (Read 2782 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 25, 2010, 01:47:29 PM »

AA?

This is a split from a thread in the Prayer Forum - Michał Kalina.
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2010, 02:04:08 PM »

I'll pray for you.
Sign up for an AA meeting.
 And do not try to ride a bike or leave your house.
I have heard of incidents when a man who rarely drinks, gets drunk and walks on the road. Then in the middle of the day, another drunken man drives over him. The man drives on and does not notice anything. Two days later at the alcoholic detoxication centre he awakes to find that he can not walk. In Poland, we have this gouvernment institution where they send all the drunken men and even sometimes women to recover from their temporary over-use of alcohol.

Photographic and videographic material seen as perpetuating insensitive stereotypes and deemed inappropriate to the Prayer Forum removed from post  -PtA
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2010, 02:45:31 PM »

Dear folks, I am a drunk, I cannot stop when I start drinking. Almost all my posts to this forum where I showed anger were made when I had a lot to drink. It is killing my wife and me. I want to stop. I will try. Please pray. Thank you so much, all of you.

Please find a chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous close to where you live. They can work wonders. 

Don't delay another day !
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2010, 02:54:34 PM »

Heorhij, I can only reinforce what others have said on this thread--go to the nearest Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, and have your wife join Al-Anon immediately.  Al-Anon is for the family members of alcoholics.

Lord, have mercy on your servant, Heorhij.
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2010, 07:39:02 PM »

Dear folks, I am a drunk, I cannot stop when I start drinking. Almost all my posts to this forum where I showed anger were made when I had a lot to drink. It is killing my wife and me. I want to stop. I will try. Please pray. Thank you so much, all of you.

George,

As someone who has often drank to deal with problems, I understand what you're going through. Ignore the suggestions to go to AA, etc., I'm willing to venture that the cause of the problem is not Alcoholism (and this is coming from an Ulster Scot with a genetic predisposition to Alcoholism Wink), but rather that Alcohol is self-medication...even if you stop drinking, you have not addressed the real problems.

I wish I could offer you a more specific solution to your situation, but I just don't known enough about what's going on. If you want to pm me, feel free to; if you don't, that's fine as well, I know I am one to deal with my own problems on my own and not bring other people into it, so I completely understand if you're the same way.

But, in short, don't focus on the Alcohol, focus on the issue that's bothering you, you don't need to share it with us, you know what's bothering you even more so when drunk than sober. The only advice I can, generically, offer you for dealing with it is don't worry about your presuppositions and don't worry about what other people think, other people are not that important, the only important person is yourself, that and your family is probably essential to your happiness...but no one else and nothing else matters.

Confront what bother's you, everything else will follow.
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2010, 08:23:34 PM »

I have had an issue with alcohol in the past. I have to say that I completely agree with GiC. There is alcohol addiction, it is a real issue. But I think many people don't deal with the reason they drink. If you have an underlying problem then when you stop drinking you will just take up some other vice. My triggers to start drinking in excess again are emotional ones, not the alcohol itself.

I will pray for you.
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« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2010, 09:57:32 PM »

I commend your honesty. We all struggle, just as much but each in different ways. Some struggles are more obvious than others, but sin in no respecter of persons- however, neither is Our Lord!

Personally, I would not recommend AA. My reason is that if you label yourself an "alcoholic" and live every day of your life with the primary goal of not having a drink, then you are still in bondage. Our Lord came to free us from bondage. It may be the reality that you need to stop drinking altogether, but only God can place that on your heart (and I know the advice of your Priest will be valuable in helping you discern this.)

My own sins are too great to judge you, but you will be in my prayers!

"Lord have mercy."


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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2010, 12:59:34 AM »

I commend your honesty. We all struggle, just as much but each in different ways. Some struggles are more obvious than others, but sin in no respecter of persons- however, neither is Our Lord!

Personally, I would not recommend AA. My reason is that if you label yourself an "alcoholic" and live every day of your life with the primary goal of not having a drink, then you are still in bondage. Our Lord came to free us from bondage. It may be the reality that you need to stop drinking altogether, but only God can place that on your heart (and I know the advice of your Priest will be valuable in helping you discern this.)

My own sins are too great to judge you, but you will be in my prayers!

"Lord have mercy."


Selam

You obviously don't understand AA.

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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2010, 01:03:19 AM »

Whether one is an "alcoholic" can be a complicated question.

That you have a problem with alcohol is clear, since you define it as such.

Folks outside of AA (God forbid, many inside) tend to have no idea about the fellowship.

It is not for everyone. It is not a cure all.

If you have an specific questions regarding AA, PM me. I would be please to help you.

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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2010, 02:09:36 AM »

Heorhij,

People are different and there are various approaches.  Some, as stated in this thread, may have underlying issues that led to drink.  For others, myself included, drink led to or worsened issues.  I recommend that you not worry too much about diagnoses, definitions, labels, etc. but about how to become free from this.  You don't have to commit to AA, but it can be a place to learn more and hear from others who have experienced similar problems and found solutions.  Defeating this can be a difficult task, but I was compelled to fight and given the strength to do so.  And for this, I thank God.   

Apologies if my advice or suggestion, coming from a newcomer to the forum, offends in any way.

Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2010, 08:59:15 AM »

I am one of the ones who recommend AA.  For several years they met twice a week in our church hall and I used to go to the open meetings.   I was impressed by the real help that was offered.  I was impressed by the rate of success. I was impressed by the high level of mutual support for one another.   I think that most of all I was impressed by the people themselves who were so unassuming, honest with themselves and with others, charitable and keen to help.  If you have underlying issues which move you to drink,  it is part of the AA programme to help sort them out too.

Also, include the spiritual side.  Discuss it with your priest if you are able and if he is sympathetic.  Make good use of Holy Communion and of prayer.

God bless you. 
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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2010, 12:29:59 PM »

I'd recommend reading the study:

 "A Controlled Experiment on the Use of Court Probation for Drunk Arrests", by Keith S. Ditman, M.D., George C. Crawford, LL.B., Edward W. Forgy, Ph.D., Herbert Moskowitz, Ph.D., and Craig MacAndrew, Ph.D., in the American Journal of Psychiatry.

before starting any 12-step program.
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2010, 10:57:49 AM »

First: Lord, have mercy! Господи, помилуй!

Many folks have urged you join AA and others have been ambivalent or opposed to doing so. Archimandrite Webber, who has a Ph.D. in Psychology is an advocate for AA. Although I am on the staff of a state agency that provides substance abuse services, I am not a clinician but I have rubbed elbows with clinicians and clients for a long time and have come to understand the following:

- For some people, the Lord is sufficient, with or without AA or counseling.
- For many other people, AA has worked wonders, with or without accompanying counseling/therapy.
- For some people, counseling/therapy works, with or without AA.
- With or without AA, the folks on counseling have relapses: on the average, it takes 7 years and 4 relapses for a person to remain in remission. There may be a way to reduce the number of relapses and shorten the time to permanent remission: medication-assisted counseling is very promising, particularly the once-a-month injection of Vivitrol.

Bottom line: it is a long term disease--an infirmity-- and it makes sense not to limit ourselves to only one course of action. Your school's EAP should cover counseling/therapy; while AA and the Lord are always available. Do all three but first read Archimandrite Webber's book.
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2010, 12:40:28 PM »

One more time, dear folks, thank you so much for your prayers. I did not touch liquor for the last 2 days and already feel a bit better about myself. Thomas, - thank you so much; I actually have this Akathist at home, in Ukrainian. GiC and Quinault, - thank you both, I know, it's underlying issues (partially, they are mentioned in my profile - the situation in my home country and the "noncanonical" status of the Orthodox jurisdiction I feel I really belong to). But it's also my laziness, sloppiness, readiness to slurp that "medicine" and feel "better," instead of living my life in a decent way and curbing my passions.

Lesya and I made a treaty that from now on, there will be no hard liquor at our home, and only she will be shopping for wine and beer (at her discretion, not mine). I completely trust her.

Dear Heorhij; Congratulations on your progress so far. One day at a time is the way to go!

May I just point out a few things that may also be of help?

1. The problem is not hard liquor per se. You can self-medicate with beer, wine, and even cough medicine. You must stay away from alcohol. Period.

2. Curbing your passions, your impulses, is hard work and you do need some partners to help you on your journey. A wife is normally is not the best such partner, but your wife may be an exception. That said, please don't make her responsible for keeping you sober and seriously consider AA and/or counseling.

3. Whether in counseling, Church and/or AA), YOU CANNOT CURE YOUR OWN PASSIONS! It is the nature of this disease that the patient cannot heal himself.
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« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2010, 05:39:11 PM »

How many here have actually been physically strung out on liquor? Just wondering how many are speaking from experience.

Heorhij,

Sounds like you are not addicted (physically which ought to be the only way this word is used), since you are not in incredible physical pain or dying.

The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.

Suggesting someone who truly addicted to liquor to stop is about the worst thing imaginable, since stopping can kill them. FWIW, the other substance addition which can be lethal when one just stops is benzodiazepine addiction. People who simply have a drinking problem are another matter, but hard to know over the internet.

When one thinks they might have an addiction to either alcohol or benzos, medical help should be the first help sought.

All other true addicts just suffer the pain with little risk to life and health unless they have underlying complications.

People "addicted" to porn, shopping, TV, etc. are just kidding themselves.

If you are not an alcoholic or currently addicted to alcohol, find refuge in the fact that drinking alcohol involves a series of gross and fine motor movements which everyone I have ever met has complete control over.

Sitting on your hands and feeling miserable when you want to drink, while you find support or whatever else you think might be helpful has a 100% success rate. (Unless you are really handy with your feet or have folks who will pour liquor down your throat . . . )

 
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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2010, 05:55:59 PM »

Lesya and I made a treaty that from now on, there will be no hard liquor at our home, and only she will be shopping for wine and beer (at her discretion, not mine). I completely trust her.

One piece of advice, be careful with the beer.  It sits in the gut longer so has more time to work.  Beer never gave me the insanity that whiskey and vodka did, but it can still get you messed up.

All the same, I know where you are coming from.  God be with you.
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2010, 06:09:40 PM »

How many here have actually been physically strung out on liquor? Just wondering how many are speaking from experience.

Heorhij,

Sounds like you are not addicted (physically which ought to be the only way this word is used), since you are not in incredible physical pain or dying.

The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.

Suggesting someone who truly addicted to liquor to stop is about the worst thing imaginable, since stopping can kill them. FWIW, the other substance addition which can be lethal when one just stops is benzodiazepine addiction. People who simply have a drinking problem are another matter, but hard to know over the internet.

When one thinks they might have an addiction to either alcohol or benzos, medical help should be the first help sought.

All other true addicts just suffer the pain with little risk to life and health unless they have underlying complications.

People "addicted" to porn, shopping, TV, etc. are just kidding themselves.

If you are not an alcoholic or currently addicted to alcohol, find refuge in the fact that drinking alcohol involves a series of gross and fine motor movements which everyone I have ever met has complete control over.

Sitting on your hands and feeling miserable when you want to drink, while you find support or whatever else you think might be helpful has a 100% success rate. (Unless you are really handy with your feet or have folks who will pour liquor down your throat . . . )

 

Vow! This is simply wrong. This is confusing alcoholism with its most extreme manifestation. Here is the definition from Wikipedia, and one which is line with what the addictions field uses in the United States: "Alcoholism, also known as alcohol dependence, is a disabling addictive disorder. It is characterized by compulsive and uncontrolled consumption of alcohol despite its negative effects on the drinker's health, relationships, and social standing. Like other drug addictions, alcoholism is medically defined as a treatable disease." Please note that it is characterized by the inability to stop in spite of the negative effects on one's health, relationships or social standing.

You do not have to be " in incredible physical pain or dying" to be deemed "addicted." If you wait until these symptoms appear, you would have missed all kinds of chances to overcome your addiction, to go into and remain in recovery. In fact, you would be most probably living under a bridge, with no friends or family, no Church, and sick and dying.
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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2010, 09:35:39 PM »

wikipedia is the worst thing ever created since the dictionary.
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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2010, 10:01:40 PM »


The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.


While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I also have one thing to say to you:

Pot, meet Kettle.
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2010, 10:03:49 PM »


You do not have to be " in incredible physical pain or dying" to be deemed "addicted." If you wait until these symptoms appear, you would have missed all kinds of chances to overcome your addiction, to go into and remain in recovery. In fact, you would be most probably living under a bridge, with no friends or family, no Church, and sick and dying.

Indeed.  It depends how one defines addiction.  Nowadays, addiction seems to be heading in the direction of being compelled to satisfy certain seratonin receptors in the brain, a condition that can manifest itself in the form of a physical and psychological dependence. 

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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2010, 11:41:36 PM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2010, 08:50:01 AM »


The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.


While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I also have one thing to say to you:

Pot, meet Kettle.

Have you been strung out on liquor or do you actually do real research in the field? Not have some silly addiction studies certificate or took a few classes within a psych or social working program.

If not, then my experience outstrips yours.
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2010, 08:50:14 AM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?

No.
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2010, 09:37:56 AM »


The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.


While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I also have one thing to say to you:

Pot, meet Kettle.

Have you been strung out on liquor or do you actually do real research in the field? Not have some silly addiction studies certificate or took a few classes within a psych or social working program.

If not, then my experience outstrips yours.

You lambasted people for anonymously giving advice on the internet to people they don't know, then you proceed to do the same.  Hence, my comment.  Had you not employed the know-it-all rhetoric in the sentence I quoted, I would have probably not made such a comment.  However, upon reflection, I shouldn't have done it in the first place as it has no place in this thread which is about Heorhij.  Please, forgive.

Indeed, our bickering is pointless.  Let's just try and help Heorhij deal with his own demons.  It doesn't matter if he's physically dependent on alcohol or not.  His is a soul in anguish.  For most of the posters on OC.net, that's simply praying for him.  For those of us who have either struggled with alcohol in the past or are close to those who do (as opposed to the "casual experience" you so eloquently dismiss), we can offer some practical advice and (more importantly) encouragement.
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2010, 11:03:05 AM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?

Absolutely not! Wherever did you hear such a thing? I personally know 3 recovering alcoholics, all 3 are Orthodox, 2 still attend their AA meetings regularly and all 3 partake of the Eucharist.
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2010, 01:09:42 PM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?

Absolutely not! Wherever did you hear such a thing? I personally know 3 recovering alcoholics, all 3 are Orthodox, 2 still attend their AA meetings regularly and all 3 partake of the Eucharist.

I know people too like that. I would urge caution though especially if your church offers more wine and antidorn to wash down the communion bread and wine. A nice long swig of Manichevitz looks to me like falling off the wagon.
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2010, 03:01:29 PM »


The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.


While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I also have one thing to say to you:

Pot, meet Kettle.

Have you been strung out on liquor or do you actually do real research in the field? Not have some silly addiction studies certificate or took a few classes within a psych or social working program.

If not, then my experience outstrips yours.

You lambasted people for anonymously giving advice on the internet to people they don't know, then you proceed to do the same.  Hence, my comment.  Had you not employed the know-it-all rhetoric in the sentence I quoted, I would have probably not made such a comment.  However, upon reflection, I shouldn't have done it in the first place as it has no place in this thread which is about Heorhij.  Please, forgive.

Indeed, our bickering is pointless.  Let's just try and help Heorhij deal with his own demons.  It doesn't matter if he's physically dependent on alcohol or not.  His is a soul in anguish.  For most of the posters on OC.net, that's simply praying for him.  For those of us who have either struggled with alcohol in the past or are close to those who do (as opposed to the "casual experience" you so eloquently dismiss), we can offer some practical advice and (more importantly) encouragement.

Yes, suggesting getting medical advice is insane.
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2010, 03:08:02 PM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?

Absolutely not! Wherever did you hear such a thing? I personally know 3 recovering alcoholics, all 3 are Orthodox, 2 still attend their AA meetings regularly and all 3 partake of the Eucharist.

I know people too like that. I would urge caution though especially if your church offers more wine and antidorn to wash down the communion bread and wine. A nice long swig of Manichevitz looks to me like falling off the wagon.

Some "alcoholics" and persons formerly physically addicted to liquor are able to drink moderately.

Having spent thousands of hours with "problem" drinkers of all varieties, including housing them and living side by side with them, there are no absolute rules. That is also the official stance taken by the any AA approved literature.

The only bad advice to a problem drinker IS as I mentioned telling them stop without medical supervision.
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« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2010, 03:27:48 PM »

Won't AA tell him not to drink the Blood of Christ?

Absolutely not! Wherever did you hear such a thing? I personally know 3 recovering alcoholics, all 3 are Orthodox, 2 still attend their AA meetings regularly and all 3 partake of the Eucharist.

I know people too like that. I would urge caution though especially if your church offers more wine and antidorn to wash down the communion bread and wine. A nice long swig of Manichevitz looks to me like falling off the wagon.

Some "alcoholics" and persons formerly physically addicted to liquor are able to drink moderately.

Having spent thousands of hours with "problem" drinkers of all varieties, including housing them and living side by side with them, there are no absolute rules. That is also the official stance taken by the any AA approved literature.

The only bad advice to a problem drinker IS as I mentioned telling them stop without medical supervision.

I am glad that you clarified your advice. I think most of us were alarmed by the following: "Sounds like you are not addicted (physically which ought to be the only way this word is used), since you are not in incredible physical pain or dying...Suggesting someone who truly addicted to liquor to stop is about the worst thing imaginable, since stopping can kill them. FWIW, the other substance addition which can be lethal when one just stops is benzodiazepine addiction." Somebody who needs detox NOW must indeed be under medical supervision. Other "problem" drinkers not so; I am talking about ASAM levels for outpatient and intensive outpatient treatment primarily. By the way, if one goes to any certified substance abuse clinician, he/she will assess you first and will make sure that you get medical care if it is so indicated. I would imagine that anyone attending an AA meeting with the DTs would also be taken posthaste to a detox facility. I am not about to pass judgment on someone who is trying to do this strictly through the Church, but the odds are that there will be somebody there (priest, deacon, fellow congregant) who will recognize a medical emergency (such as the DTs) and will take the correct action.

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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2010, 08:32:18 PM »

Sounds like you are not addicted (physically which ought to be the only way this word is used), since you are not in incredible physical pain or dying.

The problem with people giving advice over the internet about stuff they know little to nothing about, except through reading some "studies" or casual experience with people who claim to have been drunks is that they give dangerous advice.

Suggesting someone who truly addicted to liquor to stop is about the worst thing imaginable, since stopping can kill them. FWIW, the other substance addition which can be lethal when one just stops is benzodiazepine addiction. People who simply have a drinking problem are another matter, but hard to know over the internet.

You're right, if someone is actually addicted to alcohol, they should not, under any circumstance, try to stop without medical supervision. But as  you mention, what's being discussed here isn't actual addiction and most real alcoholics already know this, which is why all of them that I've known have checked themselves into the hospital before even attempting to DT. So I have to wonder why you bring this up in this thread?
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« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2010, 01:50:08 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

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« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2010, 02:07:32 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.
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« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2010, 10:13:53 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.

Go back to google. When you have actually accumulated experience in the world in this area we'll chat again.

Your noble, privileged view of humanity has all the arrogance of sophomore, misunderstanding Nietzsche for the first time.

/thread
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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2010, 11:32:47 AM »

The matter of addiction can be broken down into two components: physical dependency and emotional/mental addiction.  Getting off the physical part can be risky outside a medical environment if DTs manifest.  Folks die from this all the time.  Counseling on its own is not usually successful for treating the mental side, mostly because counseling involves manipulating the will to change.  Most alcoholics and addicts would rather die than change.  Actually, that's also true for 'normal people' as well.

For those who do decide to change, my observation has been not that they want to quit, since quitting becomes impossible once the meotional dependency is established and the will is compromised, but rather that the alcoholic decides to pursue a new direction towards happiness.  Most addicts are lousy at really being happy, which is why they use.  Getting free of the substance means having a new vision of happiness and joy which enables the person to experience their suffering without medication.

The only reliably successful means of drumming up the courage to do that is the belief in something beyond the person who is capable of helping the person endure his suffering.  For most folks, that's where the need for God comes in.  And, like it or not, it works.  Call it superstition, but AA and such spiritually-based systems are much more effective than rational counseling.

AA can be done in an Orthodox context.  That's what I'm working on with the Romanian Orthodox Church.  The method of the 12-Steps is close enough to Orthodox asceticism that it can be worked with few modifications.

The important part is to remember that addicts can't 'quit,' which is the very nature of addiction.  The 'Big Book' of AA mentions this in 'Bill's Story.'  He never said he quit, but that he was 'separated' for alcohol.  This nuance can mean all the difference in the world.
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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2010, 12:10:26 PM »

The matter of addiction can be broken down into two components: physical dependency and emotional/mental addiction.  Getting off the physical part can be risky outside a medical environment if DTs manifest.  Folks die from this all the time.  Counseling on its own is not usually successful for treating the mental side, mostly because counseling involves manipulating the will to change.  Most alcoholics and addicts would rather die than change.  Actually, that's also true for 'normal people' as well.

For those who do decide to change, my observation has been not that they want to quit, since quitting becomes impossible once the meotional dependency is established and the will is compromised, but rather that the alcoholic decides to pursue a new direction towards happiness.  Most addicts are lousy at really being happy, which is why they use.  Getting free of the substance means having a new vision of happiness and joy which enables the person to experience their suffering without medication.

The only reliably successful means of drumming up the courage to do that is the belief in something beyond the person who is capable of helping the person endure his suffering.  For most folks, that's where the need for God comes in.  And, like it or not, it works.  Call it superstition, but AA and such spiritually-based systems are much more effective than rational counseling.

AA can be done in an Orthodox context.  That's what I'm working on with the Romanian Orthodox Church.  The method of the 12-Steps is close enough to Orthodox asceticism that it can be worked with few modifications.

The important part is to remember that addicts can't 'quit,' which is the very nature of addiction.  The 'Big Book' of AA mentions this in 'Bill's Story.'  He never said he quit, but that he was 'separated' for alcohol.  This nuance can mean all the difference in the world.


I don't know where you get your data from but every study I've read shows that 12-step programs are no more successful (and often LESS successful) than people quitting on their own. The study I posted above is one such example of quitting on one's own being more successful than both 12-step programs AND professional counseling.

Join a 12-step program if you want to be a member of a cult; if you actually want to break an addiction, just stop using.
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« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2010, 12:22:52 PM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.

Go back to google. When you have actually accumulated experience in the world in this area we'll chat again.

So, am I to assume that you're contesting the fact that Detoxing, if performed in ICU under proper medical supervision, is generally not fatal? Really, what's your real world experience on the matter? How many people do you known who checked themselves into the hospital before detoxing, died as a result?

The idiots you knew who didn't bother to take the proper medical precautions don't count.

Quote
Your noble, privileged view of humanity has all the arrogance of sophomore, misunderstanding Nietzsche for the first time.

I'll take that as a compliment since I think Nietzsche one of the VERY few philosophers throughout history with even an ounce of common sense.

And I wouldn't call my views very privileged, natural selection doesn't just apply to humanity, it applies to all species. Just as the slow gazelle is eaten by the lion and the absent-minded rabbit is eaten by the hawk, so also is the stupid human removed from our gene pool...hopefully at a young enough age such that they haven't had the opportunity to reproduce.
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2010, 12:58:44 PM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2010, 01:01:11 PM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.

Go back to google. When you have actually accumulated experience in the world in this area we'll chat again.

So, am I to assume that you're contesting the fact that Detoxing, if performed in ICU under proper medical supervision, is generally not fatal? Really, what's your real world experience on the matter? How many people do you known who checked themselves into the hospital before detoxing, died as a result?

The idiots you knew who didn't bother to take the proper medical precautions don't count.

Quote
Your noble, privileged view of humanity has all the arrogance of sophomore, misunderstanding Nietzsche for the first time.

I'll take that as a compliment since I think Nietzsche one of the VERY few philosophers throughout history with even an ounce of common sense.

And I wouldn't call my views very privileged, natural selection doesn't just apply to humanity, it applies to all species. Just as the slow gazelle is eaten by the lion and the absent-minded rabbit is eaten by the hawk, so also is the stupid human removed from our gene pool...hopefully at a young enough age such that they haven't had the opportunity to reproduce.

Have you been drinking?  Wink
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 01:01:38 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2010, 01:02:30 PM »





Let's keep this focused on the OP and Heorhij.  If you want to discuss the ups and downs of a 12-step program vis-a-vis "just quitting", start another thread, please.

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« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2010, 01:22:40 PM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.

Go back to google. When you have actually accumulated experience in the world in this area we'll chat again.

So, am I to assume that you're contesting the fact that Detoxing, if performed in ICU under proper medical supervision, is generally not fatal? Really, what's your real world experience on the matter? How many people do you known who checked themselves into the hospital before detoxing, died as a result?

The idiots you knew who didn't bother to take the proper medical precautions don't count.

Quote
Your noble, privileged view of humanity has all the arrogance of sophomore, misunderstanding Nietzsche for the first time.

I'll take that as a compliment since I think Nietzsche one of the VERY few philosophers throughout history with even an ounce of common sense.

And I wouldn't call my views very privileged, natural selection doesn't just apply to humanity, it applies to all species. Just as the slow gazelle is eaten by the lion and the absent-minded rabbit is eaten by the hawk, so also is the stupid human removed from our gene pool...hopefully at a young enough age such that they haven't had the opportunity to reproduce.

Have you been drinking?  Wink

Not as much as I'd like to. Been busy at work, the long hours kinda cut into my drinking time. Wink
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« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2010, 01:23:43 PM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do, because DT's will VERY rarely be fatal if occurring in the ICU under constant medical supervision. This is nothing more than natural selection, if you're not aware of the biological and biochemical effects of the things you put in your body or of the dependency that results and you kill yourself because of it, humanity's gene pool is probably better off without you.

Feel free to assume everyone is an idiot, I'll assume everyone is intelligent and fully aware of the implications of all their actions and decisions. If assuming someone is intelligent leads to them being harmed then they probably deserve it.

Go back to google. When you have actually accumulated experience in the world in this area we'll chat again.

So, am I to assume that you're contesting the fact that Detoxing, if performed in ICU under proper medical supervision, is generally not fatal? Really, what's your real world experience on the matter? How many people do you known who checked themselves into the hospital before detoxing, died as a result?

The idiots you knew who didn't bother to take the proper medical precautions don't count.

Quote
Your noble, privileged view of humanity has all the arrogance of sophomore, misunderstanding Nietzsche for the first time.

I'll take that as a compliment since I think Nietzsche one of the VERY few philosophers throughout history with even an ounce of common sense.

And I wouldn't call my views very privileged, natural selection doesn't just apply to humanity, it applies to all species. Just as the slow gazelle is eaten by the lion and the absent-minded rabbit is eaten by the hawk, so also is the stupid human removed from our gene pool...hopefully at a young enough age such that they haven't had the opportunity to reproduce.

Have you been drinking?  Wink

Not as much as I'd like to. Been busy at work, the long hours kinda cut into my drinking time. Wink

So it's work exhaustion, good to know!  Wink
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 01:24:04 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2010, 12:18:21 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.
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« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2010, 02:30:24 AM »

Lord Have Mercy!
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« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2010, 02:32:19 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!
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« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2010, 02:55:55 AM »

BC I don't *assume* what someone means when they say they are a drunk. And sorry, seen too many people die of withdraw to be so cavalier to make assumptions as you do.

Goes back to experience.

Sounds like not a lot around here.

I guess you know more stupid people than I do,
Birds of a feather. Btw, most drunks have more than ample opportunity to pass on their genes. In fact, given the lack of responsibility that comes with addiction, perhaps more ample opportunity than most.  They just don't have the means to raise those carrying genetic predispositions they begot. If they bear instead, even better: fetal damage can be thrown in, which rarely if ever ends in infertility.

So it seems natural selection let you down. Or maybe not, given your views.

But back to the OP: Heorhij, you have survived communism, managed to immigrate and become established, remain married and raise and marry off a child. So you have more going than most drunks, and now you have the Church. Definitely possible to beat this, but I'd get help in person, not just on the net.

Lord have mercy!

I don't think you understand, it's not alcoholics that need to be weeded out via natural selection, it's stupid people, that is to say people with a low IQ or people without the intellectual motivation to learn and understand the sciences. I have nothing against alcoholism, as long as one can function and contribute to society.


I know what you said isn't racism, but it's some kind of "ism". Some kind of hate towards those in whom you feel have lower IQ's.

Lord Have Mercy!

JNORM, have you ever noticed how the atheistic naturalists want to weed out the religious, the mentally retarded, the unborn, the Africans (and other "dead weight of human waste" as Margaret Sanger called them), but they never want to weed out themselves? My family wouldn't stand a chance if Gic were in charge of the world. My wife is Black, our children are "half breeds," our infant daughter is mentally retarded, and we are all Christians!

"Lord have mercy indeed!"


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