Author Topic: Conspiracy Theorist Ralph Ellis says Jesus of Nazareth = Jesus ben Gamala  (Read 107229 times)

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Offline biro

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Except that the Freemasons didn't exist until many centuries after the time of Christ. Even other Freemasons don't claim otherwise. I know, because I've met some.

Give it a rest. Not everyone who uses big words with some diagrams thrown in, and makes funny You Tube videos about it, is telling the truth.

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Offline ralfellis

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And I decided to check and you got something wrong concerning the Doctrine of Addai. It cannot have been written by Eusebius, since he died years before it was written.


Chapter 13 of Eusebius' History of the Church contains a full account of the Doctrine of Addai.




And, as has already been mentioned, the idea that Christ and Jesus ben Gamala is the same person is without historical basis. I have until this point not encountered a historians who took this idea seriously. Josephus clearly describes the two as different persons. Jesus ben Gamala is described as an intimite friend by Josephus, while Jesus is mentioned as another person.


Josephus does not mention the biblical Jesus at all - the Testamonium Flavium being a fake.

And Jesus of Gamala was not the friend of Josephus Flavius, but the enemy. Just like Jesus was the enemy of Saul, Jesus of Gamala was the enemy of Josephus.

Ralph

Offline primuspilus

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And I decided to check and you got something wrong concerning the Doctrine of Addai. It cannot have been written by Eusebius, since he died years before it was written.


Chapter 13 of Eusebius' History of the Church contains a full account of the Doctrine of Addai.




And, as has already been mentioned, the idea that Christ and Jesus ben Gamala is the same person is without historical basis. I have until this point not encountered a historians who took this idea seriously. Josephus clearly describes the two as different persons. Jesus ben Gamala is described as an intimite friend by Josephus, while Jesus is mentioned as another person.


Josephus does not mention the biblical Jesus at all - the Testamonium Flavium being a fake.

And Jesus of Gamala was not the friend of Josephus Flavius, but the enemy. Just like Jesus was the enemy of Saul, Jesus of Gamala was the enemy of Josephus.

Ralph

Antiquities of the Jews....twice. Thanks.

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Offline ralfellis

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I asked you to show that your inductive reasoning is epistemologically strong enough for you to project your worldview presuppositions onto an ancient text in deciphering the "real meaning" (because, y'know, the authors couldn't have actually believed something like that happened, so they must have meant something else!). If we're guilty of begging the question with our various presuppositions, then you are just as guilty regardless of your attempts to dismiss our presuppositions as "faith" and yours as "logic."


The difference between us, is that Christians cannot find any of the gospel heroes in the historical record. Thus they have to rely on faith, because they have no evidence whatsoever.

But with the Edessa link, we can identify almost every biblical character in the historical record. Thus the NT goes from mythology and faith to true history and reality.

Which is the more logical route to take?  

For instance, we can find the following characters:
Bible ---  King Jesus EmManuel of Judaea.
History - King Izas Manu VI of Judaea and Edessa.

Ralph.

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If you stretch your imagination enough, you can find elves on the Moon.

We are not going to buy your books or whatever else you're hocking.
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Offline Ansgar

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And I decided to check and you got something wrong concerning the Doctrine of Addai. It cannot have been written by Eusebius, since he died years before it was written.


Chapter 13 of Eusebius' History of the Church contains a full account of the Doctrine of Addai.

Which translation? It must have been added, because Eusebius died in 339/340 and the DoA was written around the year 400. Besides, Eusebius was from Caesarea, the DoA was from Syria.


And, as has already been mentioned, the idea that Christ and Jesus ben Gamala is the same person is without historical basis. I have until this point not encountered a historians who took this idea seriously. Josephus clearly describes the two as different persons. Jesus ben Gamala is described as an intimite friend by Josephus, while Jesus is mentioned as another person.


Josephus does not mention the biblical Jesus at all- the Testamonium Flavium being a fake.

And Jesus of Gamala was not the friend of Josephus Flavius, but the enemy. Just like Jesus was the enemy of Saul, Jesus of Gamala was the enemy of Josephus.

Ralph


Quote
[204] Now, as my father wrote me an account of this, (for Jesus the son of Gamala, who was present in that council, a friend and companion of mine, told him of it,) I was very much troubled, as discovering thereby that my fellow citizens proved so ungrateful to me, as, out of envy, to give order that I should be slain: my father earnestly pressed me also in his letter to come to him, for that he longed to see his son before he died. I informed my friends of these things, and that in three days' time I should leave the country, and go home. Upon hearing this, they were all very sorry, and desired me, with tears in their eyes, not to leave them to be destroyed; for so they thought they should be, if I were deprived of the command over them: but as I did not grant their request, but was taking care of my own safety, the Galileans, out of their dread of the consequence of my departure, that they should then be at the mercy of the robbers, sent messengers over all Galilee to inform them of my resolution to leave them. Whereupon, as soon as they heard it, they got together in great numbers, from all parts, with their wives and children; and this they did, as it appeared to me, not more out of their affection to me, than out of their fear on their own account; for while I staid with them, they supposed that they should suffer no harm. So they all came into the great plain, wherein I lived, the name of which was Asochis.
Flavius Josephus. The Works of Flavius Josephus. Translated by. William Whiston, A.M. Auburn and Buffalo. John E. Beardsley. 1895.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0150:section%3D204

The Testamonium Flavium is partly a fake. Historians generally agree that, while it is not authentic in its entirety, it did originally consist of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the Crucifixion. Also, the passage where Jospehus refers to the stoning of James, the brother of Jesus is generally considered genuine.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 04:05:31 PM by Ansgar »
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Offline LBK

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The difference between us, is that Christians cannot find any of the gospel heroes in the historical record.

So the Apostles were figments of imagination? Was John the Baptist an allegorical character? We (not you and your deluded ilk) know what happened to them all, where they went to preach, how they died, etc.Lazarus, resurrected after four days dead and buried, went on to become Bishop of Cyprus. James, brother of the Lord, became the first bishop of Jerusalem. Etc, etc, etc.

What on earth are you on about, Ralph?
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Offline ralfellis

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Chapter 13 of Eusebius' History of the Church contains a full account of the Doctrine of Addai.

Which translation? It must have been added, because Eusebius died in 339/340 and the DoA was written around the year 400. Besides, Eusebius was from Caesarea, the DoA was from Syria.



I think you have this all wrong. Eusebius lived in Edessa (the very city the letters of Jesus were written to), and he says that he found the Doctrine of Addai text in the Edessan records. In effect, the version by Eusebius was the first, and the later Syriac versions were later editions by other authors.  

But since Eusebius was copying an old text, it is likely that the Doctrine of Addai is quite an early document.  The fact that it was not chosen as a connonical text does not diminish its value - all you need to understand is that the erver-deceitful Eusebius has changed Emperor Claudius into Emperor Tiberius, to conform to the then orthodox chronology.

Ralph
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 02:48:19 AM by ralfellis »

Offline LBK

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BTW, what say you about the passages I quoted in reply #66? And of your insistence in calling Paul Saul?

Waiting for your answers to these, Ralph.
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Offline ralfellis

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The difference between us, is that Christians cannot find any of the gospel heroes in the historical record.

So the Apostles were figments of imagination? Was John the Baptist an allegorical character? We (not you and your deluded ilk) know what happened to them all, where they went to preach, how they died, etc.Lazarus, resurrected after four days dead and buried, went on to become Bishop of Cyprus. James, brother of the Lord, became the first bishop of Jerusalem. Etc, etc, etc.

What on earth are you on about, Ralph?


No. The Apostles are currently figments of YOUR imagination.  

Please show me a historical text (non-biblical text) that mentions Jesus, Saul, Peter, Mary, Mary or any of the other Apostles. The gospel texts you are following are currently fictional, because they do not accord to or match with the historical record.

But if you fast-forward to the AD 60s, you can find all of these characters, because they were reletively famous monarchs.
Jesus is Izas au Kama, prince of Judaea and Edessa (also called Jesus of Gamala).
Mary is Mari Helena, queen of Judaea and Edessa.
etc: etc:

And do remember that Prince Izas of Edessa was born of a virgin; who was known as the Only Begotten Son (see John 3:18 or Antiquities 20:2:1); who led a new sect of Judaism; who preached that we should store up our treasures in heaven; who became the de facto King of the Jews; who led a revolt against Rome and orthodox Judaism; and who was crucified along with two others in AD 70, but appears to have survived after he was taken down from the cross by Josephus (of Arimathaea??).


What is the better course?  -   To follow the fantasy chronology that has no connection with reality, or to follow the real history and the real events that shaped the foundations of Christianity?

Ralph


« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 03:27:03 AM by ralfellis »

Offline ralfellis

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BTW, what say you about the passages I quoted in reply #66? And of your insistence in calling Paul Saul?

Waiting for your answers to these, Ralph.


Eh??

Do you not know that Paul's real name was Saul??  

Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him. Acts 13:9

Saul was only nicknamed Paul because he was the junior partner alongside Barnabas. Paul means 'small', and so Saul was merely being called 'junior'.  This is confirmed by Barnabas being called Jupiter and Saul being called Mercury -  in other words, Saul was the junior of the two.

This is the big unspoken truth that the gospels don't want to tell you -  Saul was only 14 years old when he went on his first tour in AD 51.  He was very much the junior, under the wing of Jupiter-Barnabas.

Ralph


P.S.  I answered your post 66 -  please see post 68.  Not all crucifixions end up with someone on a cross.... !!

Ralph
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 03:28:24 AM by ralfellis »

Offline LBK

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Do you not know that Paul's real name was Saul??  

Apostle Simon is known as Peter this day, the name that Christ Himself gave him. The use of two names for Saul/Paul is not accidental: As Saul, he was the persecuting Pharisee, as Paul, he is the Christian apostle, chosen by Christ.

Quote
Not all crucifixions end up with someone on a cross.... !!

Yet the crucifixion which truly matters was neither allegory, nor fantasy, and Paul knew it, and spoke of it, even to Christians who already knew about it. Deal with it.

Quote
Saul was only 14 years old when he went on his first tour in AD 51.

Evidence?

Quote
This is the big unspoken truth that the gospels don't want to tell you

A scoffer does not love one who corrects him, nor will he go to the wise. (Prov. 15:12)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 07:46:50 AM by LBK »
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Offline Ansgar

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Chapter 13 of Eusebius' History of the Church contains a full account of the Doctrine of Addai.

Which translation? It must have been added, because Eusebius died in 339/340 and the DoA was written around the year 400. Besides, Eusebius was from Caesarea, the DoA was from Syria.



I think you have this all wrong. Eusebius lived in Edessa (the very city the letters of Jesus were written to), and he says that he found the Doctrine of Addai text in the Edessan records. In effect, the version by Eusebius was the first, and the later Syriac versions were later editions by other authors.  

But since Eusebius was copying an old text, it is likely that the Doctrine of Addai is quite an early document.  The fact that it was not chosen as a connonical text does not diminish its value - all you need to understand is that the erver-deceitful Eusebius has changed Emperor Claudius into Emperor Tiberius, to conform to the then orthodox chronology.

Ralph


No, Eusebius wrote that he had been presented with documents telling about the Image of Edessa. The DoA as a text is of a later date.
You keep telling me that this is how it is and I need to understand and accept that, but so far, you have only given me hypotheses and very little evidence.

Also, you haven't adressed the other points I made. I gave you proof that Herod Antipas was a contemporary of Jesus and I showed you that Josephus mentioned Jesus ben Gamala and Jesus Christ as two different persons. Now, give me some physical evidence, as in historical texts, that proves that Jesus ben Gamala and Jesus Christ should be the same person.
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Offline ralfellis

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Do you not know that Paul's real name was Saul??  

Apostle Simon is known as Peter this day, the name that Christ Himself gave him. The use of two names for Saul/Paul is not accidental: As Saul, he was the persecuting Pharisee, as Paul, he is the Christian apostle, chosen by Christ.


Don't be silly.  'Peter' and 'Paul' are not names, they are titles.

With Simon, he became the rough ashlar at the Jerusalem Lodge  -  or Peter.  You would not go to Lodge and say "hello ashlar".   Its absurd.  His name is Simon, not Peter. 

Same with Saul - his name is Saul, not 'junior'.

Ralph

Offline ralfellis

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No, Eusebius wrote that he had been presented with documents telling about the Image of Edessa. The DoA as a text is of a later date.
You keep telling me that this is how it is and I need to understand and accept that, but so far, you have only given me hypotheses and very little evidence.


Nonsense.

Read History of the Church book 1 chapter 13, which gives a complete overview of the Doctrine of Addai story in 20 paragraphs.  It contains the letters written to and from Jesus and the sending of an Apostle to Edessa.

Some of the later DofA manuscripts may have more information (or embellished the story), but all the essential items were written by Eusebius in his History of the Church.





Also, you haven't adressed the other points I made. I gave you proof that Herod Antipas was a contemporary of Jesus and I showed you that Josephus mentioned Jesus ben Gamala and Jesus Christ as two different persons. Now, give me some physical evidence, as in historical texts, that proves that Jesus ben Gamala and Jesus Christ should be the same person.


Firstly, Josephus never mentions the biblical Jesus. The Testamonium Flavium is an interpolated fabrication by Eusebius (once again). It is an obvious forgery, and none of the Church Fathers before Eusebius mention these paragraphs.  And they 'forget' to mention these interpolated paragraphs because they did not exist, before the ever-deceitful Eusebius got hold of Josephus' works.



And you demonstrated nothing about Herod Antipas. You have verses that mention Herod, and you have assumed Antipas.  Why?  In reality, most of those verses refer to Herod Agrippa II, who was the best friend of Jesus of Gamala.  And there is a proof of this, but i will have to look it up.

Herod Agrippa governed much of Judaea all through the Jewish Revolt, and trod a fine political line. He pledged allegiance to Rome, but was the best friend of Jesus (Jesus of Gamala), and ransomed Jesus on one occasion (or allowed his ransom, I cannot remember which). Agrippa's sister-wife, Berenice, married Titus.

You have assumed the wrong Herod, and therefore assumed the wrong era. And the Church actively want you to assume the wrong era, because it helps their cause.

Ralph
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 09:27:46 AM by ralfellis »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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The difference between us, is that Christians cannot find any of the gospel heroes in the historical record.

So the Apostles were figments of imagination? Was John the Baptist an allegorical character? We (not you and your deluded ilk) know what happened to them all, where they went to preach, how they died, etc.Lazarus, resurrected after four days dead and buried, went on to become Bishop of Cyprus. James, brother of the Lord, became the first bishop of Jerusalem. Etc, etc, etc.

What on earth are you on about, Ralph?


No. The Apostles are currently figments of YOUR imagination.  

Please show me a historical text (non-biblical text) that mentions Jesus, Saul, Peter, Mary, Mary or any of the other Apostles. The gospel texts you are following are currently fictional, because they do not accord to or match with the historical record.

But if you fast-forward to the AD 60s, you can find all of these characters, because they were reletively famous monarchs.
Jesus is Izas au Kama, prince of Judaea and Edessa (also called Jesus of Gamala).
Mary is Mari Helena, queen of Judaea and Edessa.
etc: etc:

And do remember that Prince Izas of Edessa was born of a virgin; who was known as the Only Begotten Son (see John 3:18 or Antiquities 20:2:1); who led a new sect of Judaism; who preached that we should store up our treasures in heaven; who became the de facto King of the Jews; who led a revolt against Rome and orthodox Judaism; and who was crucified along with two others in AD 70, but appears to have survived after he was taken down from the cross by Josephus (of Arimathaea??).


What is the better course?  -   To follow the fantasy chronology that has no connection with reality, or to follow the real history and the real events that shaped the foundations of Christianity?

Ralph




Show me the historical record of most of 1st century Palestine disregarding the Bible and the writings of Josephus as evidence that it existed. That's what you expect us to believe.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 10:27:09 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Ansgar

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No, Eusebius wrote that he had been presented with documents telling about the Image of Edessa. The DoA as a text is of a later date.
You keep telling me that this is how it is and I need to understand and accept that, but so far, you have only given me hypotheses and very little evidence.


Nonsense.

Read History of the Church book 1 chapter 13, which gives a complete overview of the Doctrine of Addai story in 20 paragraphs.  It contains the letters written to and from Jesus and the sending of an Apostle to Edessa.

Some of the later DofA manuscripts may have more information (or embellished the story), but all the essential items were written by Eusebius in his History of the Church.

This is the passage from Eusebius' History of the Church:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250101.htm

And this is the Doctrine of Addai:
http://www.apostle1.com/doctrine-addai-syriac-orthodox1.htm



Also, you haven't adressed the other points I made. I gave you proof that Herod Antipas was a contemporary of Jesus and I showed you that Josephus mentioned Jesus ben Gamala and Jesus Christ as two different persons. Now, give me some physical evidence, as in historical texts, that proves that Jesus ben Gamala and Jesus Christ should be the same person.


Firstly, Josephus never mentions the biblical Jesus. The Testamonium Flavium is an interpolated fabrication by Eusebius (once again). It is an obvious forgery, and none of the Church Fathers before Eusebius mention these paragraphs.  And they 'forget' to mention these interpolated paragraphs because they did not exist, before the ever-deceitful Eusebius got hold of Josephus' works.
It is you against the majority of historians. I'll go with the experts.

And you demonstrated nothing about Herod Antipas. You have verses that mention Herod, and you have assumed Antipas.  Why?  In reality, most of those verses refer to Herod Agrippa II, who was the best friend of Jesus of Gamala.  And there is a proof of this, but i will have to look it up.

Herod Agrippa governed much of Judaea all through the Jewish Revolt, and trod a fine political line. He pledged allegiance to Rome, but was the best friend of Jesus (Jesus of Gamala), and ransomed Jesus on one occasion (or allowed his ransom, I cannot remember which). Agrippa's sister-wife, Berenice, married Titus.

You have assumed the wrong Herod, and therefore assumed the wrong era. And the Church actively want you to assume the wrong era, because it helps their cause.

Ralph

All historians agree that the Herod in question is Herod Antipas. Besides, in one of my earlier posts, I showed you that the Gospel of John tells us that Jesus visited the Temple in the 46th year of it's construction. Herod the Great began construction of the Temple in the 18th year of his reign. Do the math. The Herod mentioned in the Gospels can only be Herod Antipas.
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Offline Ansgar

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Also, you haven't adressed the other points I made. I gave you proof that Herod Antipas was a contemporary of Jesus and I showed you that Josephus mentioned Jesus ben Gamala and Jesus Christ as two different persons. Now, give me some physical evidence, as in historical texts, that proves that Jesus ben Gamala and Jesus Christ should be the same person.


Firstly, Josephus never mentions the biblical Jesus. The Testamonium Flavium is an interpolated fabrication by Eusebius (once again). It is an obvious forgery, and none of the Church Fathers before Eusebius mention these paragraphs.  And they 'forget' to mention these interpolated paragraphs because they did not exist, before the ever-deceitful Eusebius got hold of Josephus' works.
It is you against the majority of historians. I'll go with the experts.

Also, Josephus mentions Jesus indirectly, when he writes:
Quote
And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus... Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.[23]
Antiquities of the Jews Book 20, chapter 9, 1
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 11:34:47 AM by Ansgar »
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Do you not know that Paul's real name was Saul??  

Apostle Simon is known as Peter this day, the name that Christ Himself gave him. The use of two names for Saul/Paul is not accidental: As Saul, he was the persecuting Pharisee, as Paul, he is the Christian apostle, chosen by Christ.


Don't be silly.  'Peter' and 'Paul' are not names, they are titles.

With Simon, he became the rough ashlar at the Jerusalem Lodge  -  or Peter.  You would not go to Lodge and say "hello ashlar".   Its absurd.  His name is Simon, not Peter. 

Same with Saul - his name is Saul, not 'junior'.

Ralph


Wow, incorrect on every single statement. Pretty impressive.  :D
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Offline ralfellis

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Also, Josephus mentions Jesus indirectly, when he writes:

Quote
; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.

Antiquities of the Jews Book 20, chapter 9, 1


The brothers of Jesus of Gamala were called James and Simon.
The reference is to Jesus of Gamala.

Ralph
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 04:16:58 PM by ralfellis »

Offline ralfellis

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The Testamonium Flavium is an interpolated fabrication by Eusebius (once again). It is an obvious forgery, and none of the Church Fathers before Eusebius mention these paragraphs.  

It is you against the majority of historians. I'll go with the experts.

Here are a few experts who think the testamonium Flavium is a fake.  In fact, the majority think it is fake, because it is nothing like the rest of the text.

Schreckenberg & Schubert 1992a, pp. 38-41.
Kostenberger, Kellum & Quarles 2009, pp. 104-108.
Evans 2001, p. 316.
Wansbrough 2004, p. 185.
Dunn 2003, p. 141.


Ralph

Offline Ansgar

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Also, Josephus mentions Jesus indirectly, when he writes:

Quote
; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.

Antiquities of the Jews Book 20, chapter 9, 1


The brothers of Jesus of Gamala were called James and Simon.
The reference is to Jesus of Gamala.

Ralph

Look at the word Christ. And if you could please provide the textual proof for the names of the brothers of Jesus ben Gamala, that would be nice.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 04:34:01 PM by Ansgar »
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Offline Ansgar

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The Testamonium Flavium is an interpolated fabrication by Eusebius (once again). It is an obvious forgery, and none of the Church Fathers before Eusebius mention these paragraphs.  

It is you against the majority of historians. I'll go with the experts.

Here are a few experts who think the testamonium Flavium is a fake.  In fact, the majority think it is fake, because it is nothing like the rest of the text.

Schreckenberg & Schubert 1992a, pp. 38-41.
Kostenberger, Kellum & Quarles 2009, pp. 104-108.
Evans 2001, p. 316.
Wansbrough 2004, p. 185.
Dunn 2003, p. 141.


Ralph

Read what I said again. Most scholars agree that it is not authentic in it's entirety, but that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the Crucifixion, something that should also be stated in your sources. And what about the Doctrine of Addai? You haven't answered that one yet.
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Offline LBK

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Why is he here?

 ???

I suspect sales of his books are down.  :P
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline biro

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Yeah, could be. :)
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Offline LBK

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Yeah, could be. :)

If he's looking for customers, he's picked the wrong place to do his marketing ....
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 05:17:09 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Nephi

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Yeah, could be. :)

If he's looking for customers, he's picked the wrong place to do his marketing ....

What is it about OCnet that makes people think they'll find potential converts (religious,  ideological, or otherwise)? DattaSwami or whatever his name is also comes to mind.

Offline LBK

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Yeah, could be. :)

If he's looking for customers, he's picked the wrong place to do his marketing ....

What is it about OCnet that makes people think they'll find potential converts (religious,  ideological, or otherwise)? DattaSwami or whatever his name is also comes to mind.

I imagine religious forums of most kinds attract those who wish to sway others into their self-generated beliefs, whether sell books and DVDs, or plain proselytizing.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 05:50:50 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline biro

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Yeah, could be. :)

If he's looking for customers, he's picked the wrong place to do his marketing ....

True. :) He kind of reminds me of the campier speculation stuff you see on the History Channel sometimes. I don't know, therefore, aliens!!  :D

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


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Offline ilyazhito

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I know that I have no authority to do this, but I propose to the competent moderator authority that Ralph Ellis be moderated, or at least warned, for violating the forum prohibition on marketing and promoting books, websites, etc. on this site. I think that the best way to deal with conspiracy theories such as this is not to pay attention, so that no undue attention is attracted. But if it is a serious case, then a warning is appropriate.

Offline Ansgar

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I know that I have no authority to do this, but I propose to the competent moderator authority that Ralph Ellis be moderated, or at least warned, for violating the forum prohibition on marketing and promoting books, websites, etc. on this site. I think that the best way to deal with conspiracy theories such as this is not to pay attention, so that no undue attention is attracted. But if it is a serious case, then a warning is appropriate.

It might just be me, but I didn't notice any marketing or promotion of his works.
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Offline Hinterlander

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When people google Ellis and this thread comes up on the first page their suspicions of organized religion are going to be confirmed.  Thus far Ralph has provided his sources and made his argument without resorting to the sort of ad hominem attacks by the pious Orthodox of this board.  I think a better reaction would to either actually engage Ralph and his sources/arguments or ignore them.  I imagine Ralph came to this board because people were openly discussing his ideas.  Why shouldn't he be able to defend them?

Offline LBK

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When people google Ellis and this thread comes up on the first page their suspicions of organized religion are going to be confirmed.  Thus far Ralph has provided his sources and made his argument without resorting to the sort of ad hominem attacks by the pious Orthodox of this board.  I think a better reaction would to either actually engage Ralph and his sources/arguments or ignore them.  I imagine Ralph came to this board because people were openly discussing his ideas.  Why shouldn't he be able to defend them?

People have indeed been engaging Mr Ellis and his sources and arguments, pointing out their fallacies, but he steadfastly clings to his idiosyncratic ideas and errors. Go back and read Arachne's and Ansgar's posts, for example.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 06:26:43 PM by LBK »
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Offline biro

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Mr. Ellis came here to promote the claim that Jesus and the Apostles were Freemasons.

Why should we entertain such garbage?  ??? ::)
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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I know that I have no authority to do this, but I propose to the competent moderator authority that Ralph Ellis be moderated, or at least warned, for violating the forum prohibition on marketing and promoting books, websites, etc. on this site. I think that the best way to deal with conspiracy theories such as this is not to pay attention, so that no undue attention is attracted. But if it is a serious case, then a warning is appropriate.

It might just be me, but I didn't notice any marketing or promotion of his works.

Neither did I. 

If someone has this doubt and would like the moderators to look into it, clicking "report to moderator" at the bottom right corner of the post will be better than posting about it here. 

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I know that I have no authority to do this, but I propose to the competent moderator authority that Ralph Ellis be moderated, or at least warned, for violating the forum prohibition on marketing and promoting books, websites, etc. on this site. I think that the best way to deal with conspiracy theories such as this is not to pay attention, so that no undue attention is attracted. But if it is a serious case, then a warning is appropriate.
I see no evidence that Ralph is marketing anything here. I'm with Mor Ephrem, another moderator of this forum. If you suspect that someone may be violating our forum rules, you would do better to use the "Report to Moderator" function to report your concerns than air your suspicions publicly.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 07:14:44 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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I know that I have no authority to do this, but I propose to the competent moderator authority that Ralph Ellis be moderated, or at least warned, for violating the forum prohibition on marketing and promoting books, websites, etc. on this site. I think that the best way to deal with conspiracy theories such as this is not to pay attention, so that no undue attention is attracted. But if it is a serious case, then a warning is appropriate.

You are not allowed to publicly make a report for moderators.  There is a "report" link that you know very well you can use.  Consider this a friendly warning to you and anyone else in this thread.

Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Fr. George

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BTW, why do you conflate terms?  Sometimes you ask about τεκτων and other times about ελευθερό-τεκτων, and here you equate them:

So I need to know where ελευθερό-τεκτων occurs in the NT.  Don't give me occurrences of τεκτων and then tell me to look up ελευθερό-τεκτων in Google.  Show me ελευθερό-τεκτων in the NT.  


Eh? 

The ελευθερό means 'freedom' and the τεκτων means 'mason', from which we derive Freemason.  But a Freemason can be called a Mason, both in the English and the Greek.


Ralph

τέκτων may be used to denote "mason" or "freemason" now, but it didn't back in Christ's time (or earlier).  You should really find a good dictionary to help you out, one that lists the references.  A τέκτων was a carpenter or worker in wood (joiner).  In a few texts it's even used in opposition to a mason, who was a λιθολόγος (stone-worker). Occasionally it was used to generally denote a craftsman or workman, or a master in an art (like poetry, gymnastics, etc.).  There are a number of related words used exclusively in ancient texts for carpentry-related things (woodshop, joiner, carpentry, etc.). 
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BTW, why do you conflate terms?  Sometimes you ask about τεκτων and other times about ελευθερό-τεκτων, and here you equate them:

So I need to know where ελευθερό-τεκτων occurs in the NT.  Don't give me occurrences of τεκτων and then tell me to look up ελευθερό-τεκτων in Google.  Show me ελευθερό-τεκτων in the NT.  


Eh? 

The ελευθερό means 'freedom' and the τεκτων means 'mason', from which we derive Freemason.  But a Freemason can be called a Mason, both in the English and the Greek.


Ralph

τέκτων may be used to denote "mason" or "freemason" now, but it didn't back in Christ's time (or earlier).  You should really find a good dictionary to help you out, one that lists the references.  A τέκτων was a carpenter or worker in wood (joiner).  In a few texts it's even used in opposition to a mason, who was a λιθολόγος (stone-worker). Occasionally it was used to generally denote a craftsman or workman, or a master in an art (like poetry, gymnastics, etc.).  There are a number of related words used exclusively in ancient texts for carpentry-related things (woodshop, joiner, carpentry, etc.). 

Thank you for that clarification, Father George!
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline ralfellis

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τέκτων may be used to denote "mason" or "freemason" now, but it didn't back in Christ's time (or earlier).  You should really find a good dictionary to help you out, one that lists the references.  A τέκτων was a carpenter or worker in wood (joiner).  In a few texts it's even used in opposition to a mason, who was a λιθολόγος (stone-worker). Occasionally it was used to generally denote a craftsman or workman, or a master in an art (like poetry, gymnastics, etc.).  There are a number of related words used exclusively in ancient texts for carpentry-related things (woodshop, joiner, carpentry, etc.).  



Actually, τέκτων is the foundation for the modern word 'architect'. (archi-tekton, meaning 'master-mason').   As you well know, a Master Mason is the title given to a 3rd degree Mason.


As to the history of masonry, it is much older than you think. Masonry sprang out of the Templar movement, but the subject matter goes back to Kings David and Solomon and the building of the Temple of Jerusalem. Masonry preserves an independent record of this event that hails Hiram Abiff as being the true hero of the United Monarchy, and not Kings David or Solomon (Hiram Abiff is called Hiram Abi or Hiram my Father in the Tanakh).  

It is likely that Hiram Abiff was actually, Herum Atif, the chief architect (archi-tekton) of the 21st dynasty of Egypt.  The name actually means 'Son of Horus'.  (Heru - m - Atif. or Horus is my Father).  Hiram Abiff is honoured as being one of the first tektons (Masons), and one of three Grand Masters of Masonry who held the true secrets of God.

It is said in Masonry that because Hiram Abiff was murdered the secrets of God were lost. But in my book, if one of three Grand Masters is killed, that still leaves two to pass on the secrets.  Those secrets flowed down the lineage of King David to another king of the Davidic line, who was called Izas (or Jesus). Which is why Jesus was hailed as a King of the Jews of the line of David, who was called a Tekton.  In other words, Jesus was a Mason, not a carpenter, just the same as Hiram Abif was a Master Mason.

And just to add to this convoluted parallel history, the Kebra Negast says that King Solomon was the Grand Master, rather than Hiram Abif.  There were obviously many parallel histories that honoured each of the three Grand Masters of the United Monarchy.


The reason that tekton has been interpreted as 'carpenter' is that it was easier to sell the story of Jesus being a poor persecuted artisan, than it was to say that he was a powerful monarch who lost a military campaign with the Romans. but both christ and messiah mean 'king', just as kings Saul and David were also hailed as the Messiah (the anointed king of the Jews).  So no, the new Prince of Judaea was not a tekton carpenter, he was a tekton architect - a tekton Grand Master Mason who held the secrets of God.

The Talmud confirms this, when it says that Jesus was a king, and that he brought the secrets of God from Egypt in the form of skin marks (perhaps tatoos).
 
Quote:
If one writes on his flesh, he is culpable: he who scratches a mark on his flesh. It was taught that Rabbi Eliezar said to the sages: ‘But did not Ben Stada bring witchcraft from Egypt by means of scratches (or marks) upon his flesh?’ (Talmud Shabbath 104b)”

Jesus is often called Ben Stada in the Talmud, because Mary was called Stada. The reason for this nickname is convoluted and controversial, and there is no definitive explanation for it.  The reason for the Talmud saying this was witchcraft is that Jesus was not an orthodox Jew; he was a Nazarene and the Nazarene creed held quite different beliefs to orthodox Judaism.


Ralph



« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 03:39:27 AM by ralfellis »

Offline ralfellis

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Mr. Ellis came here to promote the claim that Jesus and the Apostles were Freemasons.

Why should we entertain such garbage?  ??? ::)


Actually, I came onto this thread because I Googled my name and saw my beliefs being called garbage and bunk.  Not very Christian, eh?


I have persisted here not for any advertising, because I know you will never open your eyes to such heresies. No, I am here for two reasons:

a.  To learn how the closed mind works. I am open to many ideas, and it interesting to debate with people who have one fixed creed and will stick to it.  It is a very different world to mine.

b.  To introduce new ideas to you, because your fixed ideology does not allow you any latitude for discovery.  Even little things, like St Paul's real name being Saul are quite alien to you, because you have never thought about the subject that is most dear to your heart - 1st century Judaea. You simply take the priest's word as Gospel, and never look outside the very constrained box he has created.  

Things like assuming the Testamonium Flavium to be true is quite baffling to me. When I read Josephus for the first time and came across that passage, I had to laugh because it was obviously an interpolation.  And that was before i investigated the topic and discovered that most theologians agree with me on this. And yet some people still take this passage as being true - not because it appears to be true, but because they WANT it to be true.

Likewise the age of Saul and his fate in Rome.  Again, there are many who will take the orthodox Christian explanation and never think about the possibilities. But where is the evidence?  There is none for Saul's birth nor for his demise.  In reality, he was born in AD 37; he was 14 years old on his first tour of Anatolia; he was 25 when he was shipwrecked; and he was 29 when he escaped from Rome and came back to Judaea, and became the army commander in charge of Galilee and was arresting the followers of the Church of Jesus (of Gamala). (Under what authority was Saul arresting these people, if he was not the commander of Galilee?).   I can prove this later.    In short, if i can persuade you that there is a wider world of 1st century history and knowledge that resides outside the gospel accounts, then these posts have been worthwhile.  



For instance, the Talmud mentions Jesus and Mary on many occasions. So why do the christian clergy not use the Talmud as proof that Jesus was a real historical character?  Why?

I shall give you the answer.  It is because the Talmud says Mary was rich and Jesus was a king, and it blames them for the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.  In fact the Talmud says that Jesus should be boiled alive in unmentionable things, for leading a revolt that ended with the destruction of the Temple.  Hmm, interesting.   Now do you see why the gospel story was brought forward by 40 years, to disassociate Jesus from the Jewish Revolt?


There is an alternate world out there, if you open your eyes.

Ralph





« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 04:10:19 AM by ralfellis »

Offline Incognito777

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MOST scholars believe Josephus DID say something about Jesus. Here's an interesting article by J.P. Holding.

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/josephus.php


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.

Here is one of the many quotes about Jesus in the Talmud.  I apologise of you don't like it, but there is no point in averting your eyes from the full story of the gospel era, just because you don't like what you see.  Actually, most of these references to Jesus are by Johanan ben Zakkai, who became high priest in AD 71 after the Jewish Revolt.  (He was high priest in Jabne, because Jews were banned from Jerusalem).  Since Johannan blamed Jesus for the fall of Jerusalem, the quotes are not very complimentary.



Onkelos son of Kolonikos was the son of Titus’s sister. He had a mind to convert himself to Judaism. He went and raised (Emperor) Titus from the dead by magical arts, and asked him: ‘Who is in highest repute in the next world (of the dead), and why not join them?’ (Gittin 55 - 57)

Onkelos then asks this question of several people in the underworld, and the answers he gets are as follows:”

Emperor Titus. (who destroyed Jerusalem):
Who is in most repute in the afterlife? Israel.
What then about joining them? He replied: Their creed is burdensome and you will not be able to carry it out. But if you attack them in that world you will be made a king. (Vespasian and Titus both became emperor.)
What is your punishment (in the afterlife)? What I decreed for myself. Every day my ashes are collected and sentence is passed on me and I am burnt and my ashes are scattered over the seven seas.



Balaam. (A talmudic pseudonym for Jesus):
Who is in most repute in the afterlife? Israel
What about joining them? Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their wealth.
What is your punishment? To be boiled in hot ******.



The Criminals of Israel. (Said in the talmudic footnotes to also be Jesus):
Who is in most repute in the afterlife? Israel.
What about joining them? Seek their welfare and not their harm. Because whoever touches them, touches the apple of his eye.
What is your punishment?: To be boiled in hot ******.


Talmud Gittin 55-57

(Expletives are common in the Talmud)


Note that Jesus is being linked with (Emperor) Titus, because Jesus is always linked with the Jewish Revolt in the Talmud.  (Actually, this is Vespasian and not Titus. Father and son had the same names and titles, and the Talmud and Vulgate Cycle use an opposite naming convention to modern historians.)

Incidentally, the Munich Talmud manuscript, one of the oldest Talmuds in existence, specifically mentions Jesus as being the subject of the last paragraph. But in order to lessen these visceral attacks on Jesus, perhaps because copies of the Talmud were being more widely circulated, later compilers of the Talmud have changed the name ‘Jesus’ into ‘Criminals of Israel’ לפושצי ישראל to conceal the identity of who was being discussed here.


Ralph