Author Topic: Conspiracy Theorist Ralph Ellis says Jesus of Nazareth = Jesus ben Gamala  (Read 100324 times)

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Offline LBK

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Ralph, you still haven't told us how Jesus is both King Arthur and the Edessan king you call Izas. What's the matter? Don't you have the evidence?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ralfellis

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Since Deva Victrix (Present day Chester) was not just a fortress but also a town there were other amenities and structures and it had industries such as the making of tiles. 

It wasn't an isolated prison it was an army town and administrative center.



Dewa Victrix was not a town.  It was a very large and very unusual fortress, that was in a very strange location. And nobody knows why.  Instead of dominating a region, to assert Roman authority, Dewa was hidden on the west coast behind forests and marshes.  There has been much speculation as to why.

Dewa only became a town in later generations.


A plan of Dewa. There is no town in this fortress.
The Temple of Pisces is unique, as is the second bathhouse adjacent to the temple.




Offline LBK

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Ralph, you still haven't told us how Jesus is both King Arthur and the Edessan king you call Izas. What's the matter? Don't you have the evidence?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline primuspilus

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Ralph, you still haven't told us how Jesus is both King Arthur and the Edessan king you call Izas. What's the matter? Don't you have the evidence?
Nope, but thats not the point.

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Offline ralfellis

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Ralph, you still haven't told us how Jesus is both King Arthur and the Edessan king you call Izas. What's the matter? Don't you have the evidence?


Eh??  I have already explained.  Take a look at previous posts.

If Jesus (King Izas) was exiled to Chester, then his life and deeds could easily have become the foundation for Arthurian legend.  The same life and deeds, but placed in a British setting.  But this new version of his life and deeds were in a more realistic martial context, and not the pacifist context that the Romans demanded to be placed into the gospels (to quell any further Jewish revolts).

See my previous posts, about the similarities between gospel stories and Arthurian legends.


Ralph


Offline LBK

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Ralph, you still haven't told us how Jesus is both King Arthur and the Edessan king you call Izas. What's the matter? Don't you have the evidence?


Eh??  I have already explained.  Take a look at previous posts.

If Jesus (King Izas) was exiled to Chester, then his life and deeds could easily have become the foundation for Arthurian legend.  The same life and deeds, but placed in a British setting.  But this new version of his life and deeds were in a more realistic martial context, and not the pacifist context that the Romans demanded to be placed into the gospels (to quell any further Jewish revolts).

See my previous posts, about the similarities between gospel stories and Arthurian legends.


Ralph



Not good enough, Ralph. You're on the record on your own website, stating that Jesus and King Arthur and Izas are the same person. Go on, evidence, please. Hard historical evidence, not tenuous speculation peppered with "ifs", sloppy linguistics and "similarities of stories".
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 06:57:29 AM by LBK »
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Offline LBK

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Yet again, you're blithely ignoring what I wrote, and merrily rambling on about your idiosyncratic ideas. I realize linguistics is not your strong suit, but there is simply no connection between the words mandorla and piscis. Unless you somehow manage to find one.



The connection is not between words, but between shapes. This is something that McClellan is also confused about - that not everything is based upon linguistics.

My dictionary says:

mandorla |manˈdôrlə|(also Mandorla )
noun
a pointed oval figure used as an architectural feature and as an aureole enclosing figures such as Jesus Christ or the Virgin Mary in medieval art. Also called vesica piscis.
ORIGIN late 19th cent.: from Italian, literally ‘almond.’


vesica piscis |ˈvesikə ˈpis(k)is, ˈpīsis, vəˈsēkə, vəˈsīkə|
noun ( pl. vesicae piscis |-ˌkī, -ˌkē| )
another term for mandorla.

ORIGIN Latin, literally ‘fish's bladder.’


Ralph



Saying a vesica piscis motif "proves" a cult of Pisces because it is used to surround Christ in iconography makes as much sense as saying a mandorla in an icon proves a cult of almond-worship among Christians.

Thanks for the giggle, Ralph.  :laugh:
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Yet again, you're blithely ignoring what I wrote, and merrily rambling on about your idiosyncratic ideas. I realize linguistics is not your strong suit, but there is simply no connection between the words mandorla and piscis. Unless you somehow manage to find one.



The connection is not between words, but between shapes. This is something that McClellan is also confused about - that not everything is based upon linguistics.

My dictionary says:

mandorla |manˈdôrlə|(also Mandorla )
noun
a pointed oval figure used as an architectural feature and as an aureole enclosing figures such as Jesus Christ or the Virgin Mary in medieval art. Also called vesica piscis.
ORIGIN late 19th cent.: from Italian, literally ‘almond.’


vesica piscis |ˈvesikə ˈpis(k)is, ˈpīsis, vəˈsēkə, vəˈsīkə|
noun ( pl. vesicae piscis |-ˌkī, -ˌkē| )
another term for mandorla.

ORIGIN Latin, literally ‘fish's bladder.’


Ralph



Saying a vesica piscis motif "proves" a cult of Pisces because it is used to surround Christ in iconography makes as much sense as saying a mandorla in an icon proves a cult of almond-worship among Christians.

Thanks for the giggle, Ralph.  :laugh:


Considering that the vessica piscis wasn't EVEN the piscean symbol......which is TWO fish, head to tail to head...with a line....even if someone is the worlds worst artist....it is not going to make people equate it...

'ooo-errr its got a fishy! That must be about that Jesus fellow, its got to be innit?'








Also....which metaphor for Jesus are we chasing here...you appear to be chasing ALL of them simultaneously and to be honest, they contradict...
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Offline Ebor

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Since Deva Victrix (Present day Chester) was not just a fortress but also a town there were other amenities and structures and it had industries such as the making of tiles.  

It wasn't an isolated prison it was an army town and administrative center.



Dewa Victrix was not a town.  It was a very large and very unusual fortress, that was in a very strange location. And nobody knows why.  Instead of dominating a region, to assert Roman authority, Dewa was hidden on the west coast behind forests and marshes.  There has been much speculation as to why.


Dewa only became a town in later generations.

What "speculation" have you read, please?  Meaning no disrespect, but you are not a Roman military leader. That you call the location "strange" doesn't mean that it was to the Roman leaders who built it.  The River Dee was navigable up to the area.  There was a plentiful source of water that was piped in for the baths as well as resources of stone and wood. You personally call it "strange", the Romans seem to have found it strategic. According to the sources that I have found including works by David J. P. Mason (who has written the book that is much cited in the WIki article just for starters), Deva Victrix was built as a military post between Celtic tribes including the Odovices and the Brigantes and the Cornovii.  It was to establish a Roman military presence and to expand the empire.  

The reason that it was built there has been stated: "The 20th Roman Legion, conquerors of Iceni Warrior queen Boadicea built Fortress Deva to repel Welsh Tribes" from the same site where you found the plan that you have put up.  (emphasis added)
http://www.chestertourist.com/tours_chester.htm

Here is are pages with some citations on Deva Victrix including this from Claudius Ptolemaeus ""From these (the Ordovices) toward the east are the Cornavi, among whom are the towns: Deva, Legio XX Victrix 17*30 56°45 Viroconium 16*45 55°45"." (The numbers correspond with Ptolemaeus' map on the first link
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/2*.html#Deva_town

http://www.roman-britain.org/places/deva.htm  
This page also covers the military history of the site and notes that in the 70s A.D. it was a timber fortress that had lead water pipes that are marked with the name of Gnaeus Julius Agricola.  The fortress was then rebuilt in stone in the reign of Trajan about 102 A.D.  There is also interesting information on the many inscriptions that have been found there including to the various gods worshiped.  

Mason is cited as writing that the town buildings were originally wooden but were replaced with stone "in the early 2nd century"  i.e. from 100 A.D. on  That's not "later generations".

Quote
plan of Dewa. There is no town in this fortress.
The Temple of Pisces is unique, as is the second bathhouse adjacent to the temple.

<removed to save bandwidth>

 That is a depiction of the fortress, but it can be seen that there is an amphitheater on the lower right of the plan from the Chester Tourist site.  No, it was not in the fortress, it was outside and the Romans built it, just as they build them in other towns.  On that same page from which you got the diagram is a model of the fortress with a number of buildings outside of it http://www.chestertourist.com/Feature1.htm  Again, according to David Mason these included shops, 'civilian" baths and an inn along with houses.  There were also cemeteries from which a number of inscribed tombstones have been found.

Where do you see a "second bathhouse" on the drawing that you posted, please?  The "elliptical building" is in the middle left by the "workshops" but there is nothing labeled as "thermae" or "baths" next to it.

The "Temple of Pisces" is your name for the elliptical building? Does anyone else call it that?  Here is what David Mason said about it in an article in the Times in 1999:

Quote
"A strange elliptical building, which consisted of 12 wedge-shaped rooms around a courtyard, has long baffled archaeologists. A fresh look at the structure suggests that it may have been built as a shrine to the glory of Rome, its shape mirroring the geography of the Roman Empire.

David Mason, secretary of the Chester Archaeological Society, said: "If you take the unusual style of the walls, the elliptical building and the fact that Roman Chester was ten acres larger than any other legionary fortress, then it is clear that it was unusual, perhaps intended to be the headquarters of the Roman Governor."

I am attempting find Mason's books on Roman Chester/Deva Victrix via interlibrary loan or some other source.  Have you read any of them?
 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 08:15:29 PM by Ebor »
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Offline Ebor

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Jesus is repeatedly referred to as King throughout the New Testament. In addition, Jesus refers to himself as "The Door" in both John 10 verses 7 and 9.  Therefore King Arthur (King The Door) is easily shown to having been derived from Jesus, who is known as both King and The Door.  

Isn't it obvious?


Very funny.   Actually, it is much simpler than that.



The Helios-Sol figure on the Hamat zodiac is an image of Jesus (surrounded by his 12 disciple constellations on this 'round table').
However, if you use an Earth-based zodiac, as was used in Arthurian legend, the central icon on a zodiac becomes Ursa Major (the Great Bear).

Well, aside from the point of the Hammath Tiberias figure being Helios/Sol Invictus surrounded by the zodiacal constellations and four figures representing the seasons so it's not a "round table"...

Where in any Arthurian legend was the zodiac referenced please? You claim that it was used, so would you please tell us in what work? 
 If it is in the first book of the Lancelot-Grail/Prose Vulgate, the one that you wrote as being the "only really lucid and historical section" and apparently the only one of the Arthurian stories that you think is important,  I now have on hand The Lancelot Grail Reader edited by Norris J. Lacy which has the text of "The History of the Holy Grail" translated by Carol J. Chase. (Garland Pub. 2000).  Where in the work is there any reference to the zodiac? 

What is an "Earth-based zodiac" as compared to the zodiac of constellations in the sky?   

Quote
Ursa Major was called Arcturus in the Vulgate Cycle of Arthurian legend, from the Greek arktos meaning 'bear', and Arcturus became Arcthur or Arthur.

 ???  Where is this done, please?  Is this supposed to be in the original medieval French or in an English translation? Will you provide a quote from the book that can be checked to back up your claim? With out some source besides your claim I do not believe it.

For information's sake "Arcturus" is a red giant star in the constellation of Boötes the Herdsman. Mr. Ellis is correct that the name partly refers to a bear, but it is not a constellation itself.  The name means roughly "Bear Guard" or "Watcher of the Bear" since it is near to the Great Bear and the Little Bear aka Ursa Major and Ursa Minor or in smaller forms the Big and Little Dippers.
http://www.space.com/22842-arcturus.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcturus


Quote
Thus the central Jesus-figure on the Hamat zodiac can be called Helios, Sol or Arthur.

Not it can't, not if one is being truthful to the literature and to the archeology. 
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Offline ralfellis

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What "speculation" have you read, please?  Meaning no disrespect, but you are not a Roman military leader. That you call the location "strange" doesn't mean that it was to the Roman leaders who built it.  The River Dee was navigable up to the area.  There was a plentiful source of water that was piped in for the baths as well as resources of stone and wood. You personally call it "strange", the Romans seem to have found it strategic. According to the sources that I have found including works by David J. P. Mason (who has written the book that is much cited in the WIki article just for starters), Deva Victrix was built as a military post between Celtic tribes including the Odovices and the Brigantes and the Cornovii.  It was to establish a Roman military presence and to expand the empire.  



The questions about the peculiar location of Dewa were actually paraphrased questions raised by David Mason himself, from his book on the Eliptical Building (Temple of Pisces).  Mason was confused by the location of Dewa, and speculated that it was a port-fortress to launch an attack on Ireland. But due to the lack of evidence for Romans in Ireland, he remained mysitified.  There is no logical reason for placing a fortress in an inaccessable location, where it cannot dominate a region or a trade route.

However, had Mason known of the possibility that Dewa was actually a large Guantanamo Bay, the mystery might have been solved. A Guantanamo Bay does indeed need to be remote and inaccessable.

And the town (and ampitheater) grew up at a later date around the fortress, as towns always do. The fortress and the soldiers had money and needed lots of local supplies, and the locals were happy to set up small shop outside to cater for this new trade.  And no doubt the fortress needed local labour too.  But the growing town would have been incitental to the fortress, and not politically connected to it.

And i know the modern city well, because I used to live there.  The book is available from the museum, but not many other places.  ;-)

Ralph






Offline ralfellis

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Quote
Ursa Major was called Arcturus in the Vulgate Cycle of Arthurian legend, from the Greek arktos meaning 'bear', and Arcturus became Arcthur or Arthur.

 ???  Where is this done, please?  Is this supposed to be in the original medieval French or in an English translation? Will you provide a quote from the book that can be checked to back up your claim? With out some source besides your claim I do not believe it.



If you look in the literature, Arthur was called by many names on the Art.... format.  With Art being derived from the Welsh and Greek Arktos meaning 'bear'.  And the bear in question was, of course, the Great Bear or Ursa Major.

Please see:    Arthuriana: Early Arthurian Tradition and the Origins of the Legend.  By Thomas Green

ralph




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While as a source, it isn't the greatest....it is in this case still illuminating

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur

NameMain article: Arthur
The origin of the Welsh name "Arthur" remains a matter of debate. Some suggest it is derived from the Roman nomen gentile (family name) Artorius, of obscure and contested etymology[22] (but possibly of Messapic[23][24][25] or Etruscan origin).[26][27][28] Some scholars have suggested it is relevant to this debate that the legendary King Arthur's name only appears as Arthur, or Arturus, in early Latin Arthurian texts, never as Artōrius (though it should be noted that Classical Latin Artōrius became Arturius in some Vulgar Latin dialects). However, this may not say anything about the origin of the name Arthur, as Artōrius would regularly become Art(h)ur when borrowed into Welsh.[29]

Another possibility is that it is derived from a Brittonic patronym *Arto-rīg-ios (the root of which, *arto-rīg- "bear-king" is to be found in the Old Irish personal name Art-ri) via a Latinized form Artōrius.[30] Less likely is the commonly proposed derivation from Welsh arth "bear" + (g)wr "man" (earlier *Arto-uiros in Brittonic); there are phonological difficulties with this theory—notably that a Brittonic compound name *Arto-uiros should produce Old Welsh *Artgur and Middle/Modern Welsh *Arthwr and not Arthur (in Welsh poetry the name is always spelled Arthur and is exclusively rhymed with words ending in -ur – never words ending in -wr – which confirms that the second element cannot be [g]wr "man").[31][32]

An alternative theory, which has gained only limited acceptance among professional scholars, derives the name Arthur from Arcturus, the brightest star in the constellation Boötes, near Ursa Major or the Great Bear.[33] Classical Latin Arcturus would also have become Art(h)ur when borrowed into Welsh, and its brightness and position in the sky led people to regard it as the "guardian of the bear" (which is the meaning of the name in Ancient Greek) and the "leader" of the other stars in Boötes.[34]

A similar first name is Old Irish Artúr, which is believed to be derived directly from an early Old Welsh or Cumbric Artur.[35] The earliest historically attested bearer of the name is a son or grandson of Áedán mac Gabráin (d. AD 609).[36]

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Offline Ebor

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Quote
Ursa Major was called Arcturus in the Vulgate Cycle of Arthurian legend, from the Greek arktos meaning 'bear', and Arcturus became Arcthur or Arthur.

 ???  Where is this done, please?  Is this supposed to be in the original medieval French or in an English translation? Will you provide a quote from the book that can be checked to back up your claim? With out some source besides your claim I do not believe it.



If you look in the literature, Arthur was called by many names on the Art.... format.  With Art being derived from the Welsh and Greek Arktos meaning 'bear'.  And the bear in question was, of course, the Great Bear or Ursa Major.

Please see:    Arthuriana: Early Arthurian Tradition and the Origins of the Legend.  By Thomas Green

ralph


Thank you for the title.
For anyone interested the author is Dr. Thomas Green, a researcher at Oxford and I found that this work is available for purchase on Amazon and also as a pdf here:
http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/book/Arthuriana.pdf

This is a book length document with citations and a bibliography which includes works that I know of or own.  The first section "‘The Historicity and Historicisation of Arthur" starts:

"Many different theories are available as to the ‘identity’ of Arthur and some brief methodological notes will be found here regarding the making of such identifications. While these theories are interesting, they fail to address fully one important question – was there a historical post-Roman Arthur?" (page 11).

Later in the book are some things about the name of "Arthur"  and it does mention the star Arcturus, while noting that it is a star in the constellation Boötes and that that particular constellation is associated with Arthur (page 261) in some legends.  Not however the "Vulgate" works which Dr. Green notes is 13th centure.   

But that is not what I asked of you
You wrote:

Quote
Ursa Major was called Arcturus in the Vulgate Cycle of Arthurian legend, from the Greek arktos meaning 'bear', and Arcturus became Arcthur or Arthur.

You claim that the constellation of Ursa Major (aka The Great Bear aka The Plough aka "Charles' Wain" and other names) was "called Arcturus in the Vulgate Cycle".   I ask again where in that work is this done please?  What quote can you provide to show that what you wrote is true?

Thank you
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Offline Ebor

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What "speculation" have you read, please?  Meaning no disrespect, but you are not a Roman military leader. That you call the location "strange" doesn't mean that it was to the Roman leaders who built it.  The River Dee was navigable up to the area.  There was a plentiful source of water that was piped in for the baths as well as resources of stone and wood. You personally call it "strange", the Romans seem to have found it strategic. According to the sources that I have found including works by David J. P. Mason (who has written the book that is much cited in the WIki article just for starters), Deva Victrix was built as a military post between Celtic tribes including the Odovices and the Brigantes and the Cornovii.  It was to establish a Roman military presence and to expand the empire.  



The questions about the peculiar location of Dewa were actually paraphrased questions raised by David Mason himself, from his book on the Eliptical Building (Temple of Pisces).  

Can you provide any real quotes from this work rather than paraphrases, please?

Quote
Mason was confused by the location of Dewa, and speculated that it was a port-fortress to launch an attack on Ireland. But due to the lack of evidence for Romans in Ireland, he remained mysitified.  

Since Dr. Mason has written more than one book on Deva Victrix, been part of the Chester Archeological Society and the Principal Archeologist for County Durham , according to this site http://www.aasdn.org.uk/committee.htm    I doubt very much that he was "confused" or "mystified" for long if at all.  Can you provide any quotes from the gentleman himself with citations to show where you got this impression please?

Quote
There is no logical reason for placing a fortress in an inaccessable location, where it cannot dominate a region or a trade route.

"Inaccessible" is your personal opinion The Roman military and government would seem to have disagreed with you.  Since the legions got there and built the first wooden fortification in the second half of the first century A.D. it was accessible to them. http://www.roman-britain.org/places/deva.htm
Deva that was one end of a Roman road, the Via Devana  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Devana
 
and it was a military base for extending the Roman Empire.  
Quote
"It was only c. 70 that a new policy of total conquest of the British Isles led to the establishment of the first permanent military presence at Chester. (fn. 9)

As a prelude to implementing the new policy, the Ninth Legion was moved forward from Lincoln to York, and a new legion, the Second, called Adiutrix and recently raised by Vespasian from the marines of the Adriatic fleet, was sent to Britain with the new governor, Petillius Cerialis, and based initially at Lincoln. (fn. 10) It was soon moved west to construct a new legionary depot at Chester, probably under orders from Sextus Julius Frontinus as incoming provincial governor in or shortly after 74. (fn. 11)
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=19183

The above page which is part of British History Online a site created by the Institute of Historical Research and the History of Parliament Trust

Quote
During the Flavian period (69-96), the roads to Lincoln, Wroxeter and Gloucester were extended (by 80) to the new (and definitive) legionary bases at York, Chester and Caerleon respectively.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads_in_Britain

Quote
However, had Mason known of the possibility that Dewa was actually a large Guantanamo Bay, the mystery might have been solved. A Guantanamo Bay does indeed need to be remote and inaccessable.

No, there is no "actually".  This is only your word and opinion.  That you make this suggestion does not make it fact.

Quote
And the town (and ampitheater) grew up at a later date around the fortress, as towns always do. The fortress and the soldiers had money and needed lots of local supplies, and the locals were happy to set up small shop outside to cater for this new trade.  And no doubt the fortress needed local labour too.  But the growing town would have been incitental to the fortress, and not politically connected to it.

Yes, some of the documentation links that I have provided has information that a fort came first made of timber and earthworks. Then it was rebuilt in stone and the mansio, amphitheater, shops and so forth were also rebuilt in stone staring in the early 2nd century.  

How do you know what local Celtic tribes thought about having a Roman town and fortress in their midst or that they would have been "happy" to "cater"?  How would they have had the skills or knowledge to construct lead water pipes with Latin inscriptions or other supplies?  The legions did their own building when needed.  They were trained to create camps and fortifications.  

As has been noted some of the soldiers when they retired from the legion settled in the town and died there. We know this because of the grave stones that have been found.
On what do you base your claim of no political connection in the last sentence please and have you looked at any of the links?

Quote
And i know the modern city well, because I used to live there.  The book is available from the museum, but not many other places.  ;-)

Which book are you referring to, since Dr. Mason has written several on Roman Chester/Deva Victrix?  If you mean the one on the "Elliptical Building" you are incorrect.  A brief search with WorldCat found copies in a number of Universities in this country as well as used or new copies at several bookstores in England. So again Interlibrary Loan might be used to check on if what you claim the book says is true.
In addition a site on the building done by Dr. Mason and another gentleman, Julian Baum, may be found here:  http://www.take27.co.uk/julianbaum/ChesterProject/EB/EB.html  It includes  computer models of the buildings

From the site:
"The Elliptical Building should perhaps be viewed in conjunction with a number of other features of the legionary fortress at Chester which set it apart from contemporary establishments, not the least of which is the fact that it is 20% larger than the other early Flavian legionary fortresses at York and Caerleon. At the time Chester was founded, circa AD 76, its geographical and strategic position would have made it an ideal location for the headquarters of the provincial governor and the need to provide accommodation for the governor, his retinue of officials, and his personal bodyguard would explain both the unusually large size of the Chester fortress, the presence of a building whose architecture was more metropolitan and civil than provincial and military and which was but one of a group of unusual buildings occupying the centre of the fortress."

Emphasis added.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 08:38:59 PM by Ebor »
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Offline ralfellis

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Since Dr. Mason has written more than one book on Deva Victrix, been part of the Chester Archeological Society and the Principal Archeologist for County Durham , according to this site http://www.aasdn.org.uk/committee.htm    I doubt very much that he was "confused" or "mystified" for long if at all.  Can you provide any quotes from the gentleman himself with citations to show where you got this impression please?


I don't have the book here.  The only direct quote from Prof Mason that I took was:

"The only possible purpose of Dewa was its access to the sea"




"Inaccessible" is your personal opinion The Roman military and government would seem to have disagreed with you.  Since the legions got there and built the first wooden fortification in the second half of the first century A.D. it was accessible to them. http://www.roman-britain.org/places/deva.htm
Deva that was one end of a Roman road, the Via Devana  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Devana
 

As you can see, Fortress Dewa was at the extremity of the Via Devana, and as that site you linked to says:

"The Via Devana had little civilian rationale and the road eventually fell into disuse."

So the Via Devana was not very useful at all, while Dewa was an inaccessible site with little rationale, other than to be remote and hidden.  But if Dewa was actually a large Guantanamo Bay, this remote location would be an advantage.




Yes, some of the documentation links that I have provided has information that a fort came first made of timber and earthworks. Then it was rebuilt in stone and the mansio, amphitheater, shops and so forth were also rebuilt in stone staring in the early 2nd century.  


Not so.  Dewa was unusual in being made of stone.  As Prof Mason says:

"The Dewa fort was special in a number of ways: not only was it significantly larger than all the other legionary forts in Britain ... it was also provided with a defensive wall of rather unusual style. …. This style of masonry was normally reserved for particularly prestigious constructions such as temple podia and the major gates of towns"

And in regard to the Temple of the Zodiac, Prof Masom says:

"It is obvious that there was something unusual about the fortress at Chester, and it is clear that that ‘something’ was bound up with the group of buildings which included the Elliptical Building in the central zone of its interior ... one is drawn to the conclusion that the impetus for its inclusion (in the fortress) can only have come from the highest level of the military command."





How do you know what local Celtic tribes thought about having a Roman town and fortress in their midst or that they would have been "happy" to "cater"?  How would they have had the skills or knowledge to construct lead water pipes with Latin inscriptions or other supplies?  The legions did their own building when needed.  They were trained to create camps and fortifications.  


The Romans can organize their specialist skills, but they would have needed local labour and local supplies, as in food, timber and stone.  The legionnaires had enough to do, without hewing the actual stones themselves.  Anyway, in Roman society, stone-hewing was the work of slaves, not legionnaires .



Ralph


« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 07:00:18 AM by ralfellis »

Offline ralfellis

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Here is the book in question:





And here is the Temple of the Zodiac in Fortress Dewa.
This is not what normally gets built in Roman fortresses.  This is highly unusual:






And here is probably what the Temple of the Zodiac was supposed to be  -  a Piscean baptistry or zodiac baptistry.
Most of the Roman baptistries in North Africa are linked to fish symbolism.
This is the 6th century Aix baptistry in France:





Again, this is not what should be at the center of a Roman fortress.
A fortress was a military encampment, not a monastery….


Ralph
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 07:18:32 AM by ralfellis »

Offline Ebor

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Since Dr. Mason has written more than one book on Deva Victrix, been part of the Chester Archeological Society and the Principal Archeologist for County Durham , according to this site http://www.aasdn.org.uk/committee.htm    I doubt very much that he was "confused" or "mystified" for long if at all.  Can you provide any quotes from the gentleman himself with citations to show where you got this impression please?


I don't have the book here.  The only direct quote from Prof Mason that I took was:

"The only possible purpose of Dewa was its access to the sea"

Do you own the book so that you might provide a longer passage please?  That one sentence is not sufficient support to your claim that Dr. Mason was "confused" or "mystified" and it doesn't jibe with other things that I have read that were written by him such as the "Elliptical Building" site.  It also doesn't fit with the other sites and information on Deva Victrix.


Quote

"Inaccessible" is your personal opinion The Roman military and government would seem to have disagreed with you.  Since the legions got there and built the first wooden fortification in the second half of the first century A.D. it was accessible to them. http://www.roman-britain.org/places/deva.htm
Deva that was one end of a Roman road, the Via Devana   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Devana
 

As you can see, Fortress Dewa was at the extremity of the Via Devana, and as that site you linked to says:

"The Via Devana had little civilian rationale and the road eventually fell into disuse."

So the Via Devana was not very useful at all, while Dewa was an inaccessible site with little rationale, other than to be remote and hidden.  But if Dewa was actually a large Guantanamo Bay, this remote location would be an advantage.

You cut off most of the rest of the sentence from the Wikipedia page on the Via Devana and changed the meaning and intent to something that it does not say.

Here is the full sentence:

"The Via Devana had little civilian rationale and the road eventually fell into disuse as it was not possible to maintain extensive public works following withdrawal of the last Roman legion from Britain in 407."    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Devana

The road was important for military and governmental use. Once there were no legions or governmental travelers using the road after the the early 5th century it wasn't used much by the civilian population.  The original sentence is not referring to the 1st and 2nd centuries which is the time period during which it was built.

Further more there is the "Antonine Itinerary" a document of the stations and distances on various Roman roads including ones in Britain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Itinerary#Iter_Britanniarum

"Iter II"  and "Iter XI" both have Deva/Chester on them.  The former is on the road from "the Wall" to  Rutupiae/Richborough, Kent with Deva between "Condato" and "Bovium". Deva is noted on the route has being the location for Legion XX Valeria Victrix.  The second mention is for the branch road leading to Segontium/Caernarfon, in Wales (established as part of the assault on the Island of Mona/ now Anglesey
http://www.roman-britain.org/antonine-itinerary.htm



Quote

Yes, some of the documentation links that I have provided has information that a fort came first made of timber and earthworks. Then it was rebuilt in stone and the mansio, amphitheater, shops and so forth were also rebuilt in stone staring in the early 2nd century.  


Not so.  Dewa was unusual in being made of stone.  As Prof Mason says:

"The Dewa fort was special in a number of ways: not only was it significantly larger than all the other legionary forts in Britain ... it was also provided with a defensive wall of rather unusual style. …. This style of masonry was normally reserved for particularly prestigious constructions such as temple podia and the major gates of towns"

What is the citation for this passage please? You say that Dr. Mason has written this, but you have not written where so that other people can check to see if you have quoted him accurately.  
Also, you have ellipses separating those sentences.  What have you removed please?  There is missing information.

There were also other forts/fortresses and walled cities in Britain that the Romans built of stone.  Here is an English Heritage document that mentions Deva as well as other stone walled forts/fortresses just for starters.  
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/publications/iha-roman-forts-fortresses/romanfortsfortresses.pdf


Quote
And in regard to the Temple of the Zodiac, Prof Masom says:

"It is obvious that there was something unusual about the fortress at Chester, and it is clear that that ‘something’ was bound up with the group of buildings which included the Elliptical Building in the central zone of its interior ... one is drawn to the conclusion that the impetus for its inclusion (in the fortress) can only have come from the highest level of the military command."

Again, there is a break with ellipses in that sentence.  Why would you not post all of it?  Is this from the book on the Elliptical building or some other work?

In case you had difficulty getting to Dr. Mason's site on the Elliptical Building since it didn't have the proper formatting here it is again
http://www.take27.co.uk/julianbaum/ChesterProject/EB/EB.html

Have you read what Dr. Mason has written there?  One interesting passage is that the building was first started  around 79 A.D. but not finished.  The dating comes from inscriptions on the lead pipe that would have provided water to a fountain if it had been completed.

Then it was fully built about 150 years later:

"With the comprehensive reconstruction of the Chester fortress instituted during the first half of the third century, the Elliptical Building project was revived. This time the building was actually completed, albeit with considerable modifications to the original design. As all traces of the original building had disappeared and as no attempt was made to trace the earlier foundations, this must mean that the original plans had been retrieved from the fortress archives where they had lain for 150 years!"  
http://www.take27.co.uk/julianbaum/ChesterProject/EB/EB.html
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 09:59:33 PM by Ebor »
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Offline Ebor

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Here is the book in question:

Yea, I know that this is the title and it is what I have found as being for sale at several bookshops in England and available at some university libraries in this country. 

Quote
And here is the Temple of the Zodiac in Fortress Dewa.
This is not what normally gets built in Roman fortresses.  This is highly unusual:

That picture is a computer model that is found at Dr. Mason and Mr. Baum's for site which I have provided the link. I have seen it.

That title is yours only.  It does not make it true and Dr. Mason does not use it.  He does say that it is unusual and offers some ideas which are found at that site and which I quoted in a previous post

Quote
And here is probably what the Temple of the Zodiac was supposed to be  -  a Piscean baptistry or zodiac baptistry.

Or "here is maybe what the Elliptical Building was supposed to be"

except that just saying that it was supposed to be something doesn't make it true.  Does anyone else besides yourself refer to the building as that title?  Have you excavated the site as others have? 

Quote
Most of the Roman baptistries in North Africa are linked to fish symbolism.
This is the 6th century Aix baptistry in France:

Will you provide examples and documentation of Roman baptistries in North Africa please?  with citations and sources?

What does a 6th century (after the acceptance of Christianity) baptistry in France have to do with "Roman" ones in North Africa of which you have shown no examples?

Quote
Again, this is not what should be at the center of a Roman fortress.
A fortress was a military encampment, not a monastery….

But for a governmental center, the headquarters of a Provincial governor it might have been.  To quote Dr. Mason again

"At the centre of the courtyard lay a fountain-monument, undoubtedly intended to be accompanied by a pool. The lead water-pipe supplying the monument, found in 1969, bore a cast inscription recording its manufacture during the reign of Vespasian, when Gnaeus Iulius Agricola was Governor of Britain, and the consular dates enable its manufacture to be placed in the first half of AD 79. Thus, the Elliptical Building was an integral feature of the original fortress plan.Why should such a comparatively exotic building have been included in a legionary fortress on the fringes of the Empire at so early a date? The Elliptical Building should perhaps be viewed in conjunction with a number of other features of the legionary fortress at Chester which set it apart from contemporary establishments, not the least of which is the fact that it is 20% larger than the other early Flavian legionary fortresses at York and Caerleon. At the time Chester was founded, circa AD 76, its geographical and strategic position would have made it an ideal location for the headquarters of the provincial governor and the need to provide accommodation for the governor, his retinue of officials, and his personal bodyguard would explain both the unusually large size of the Chester fortress, the presence of a building whose architecture was more metropolitan and civil than provincial and military and which was but one of a group of unusual buildings occupying the centre of the fortress. Perhaps, therefore, the lead water-main found in the Elliptical Building and that previously recovered from the central area of the fortress (RIB II.3 2434.1-3) which bear cast inscriptions referring to Agricola ought to be taken as straightforward evidence of the intention to make Chester the headquarters of the provincial governor. The fragmentary slate-cut inscription found near to the Elliptical Building in the late 1960`s (Britannia II (1971), 290 No. 7), the only example of its class from Britain, might also be connected with the postulated unusual status of Deva "
emphasis added
http://www.take27.co.uk/julianbaum/ChesterProject/EB/EB.html
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Offline LBK

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Ebor, thanks again for further exposing Mr Ellis' abysmally sloppy "scholarship". It is now beyond question as to why no reputable academic publishing house or peer-reviewed journal would want to touch his drivel. If Ellis tried to, he'd be laughed out of the shop, and rightly so.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 11:35:51 PM by LBK »
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I suggest Mr. Ellis take his claims to a real school, like Harvard or Oxford, and try to get a job teaching there. I'd pay to see what happens.
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I read that Jesus as a child went to Cornwall with Joseph of Arimethea and mined tin and was a smelting expert.  Must be true.
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I read that Jesus as a child went to Cornwall with Joseph of Arimethea and mined tin and was a smelting expert.  Must be true.

Must have been before he moved to the Languedoc with Mary Magdalene and took up growing olives.
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Well of course it was!  As one grows, you no longer fit in the mineshaft and are retired

Olive rancher is a fabulous second career.
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Offline hecma925

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I read that Jesus as a child went to Cornwall with Joseph of Arimethea and mined tin and was a smelting expert.  Must be true.

Must have been before he moved to the Languedoc with Mary Magdalene and took up growing olives.

And then he went to Japan, where he is buried.  Jesus was quite the traveler.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Well of course it was!  As one grows, you no longer fit in the mineshaft and are retired

Olive rancher is a fabulous second career.

Olive rancher or winemaker would be a great career, period.  Or, hey, tin smelter.  If Jesus did it, it's A-OK for me.
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I read that Jesus as a child went to Cornwall with Joseph of Arimethea and mined tin and was a smelting expert.  Must be true.

Must have been before he moved to the Languedoc with Mary Magdalene and took up growing olives.

And then he went to Japan, where he is buried.  Jesus was quite the traveler.

And here's a picture of his grave to show that he really did. :angel:


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I suggest Mr. Ellis take his claims to a real school, like Harvard or Oxford, and try to get a job teaching there. I'd pay to see what happens.

So would I. Will you bring the popcorn, or should I? ;) ;D
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Offline ralfellis

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I read that Jesus as a child went to Cornwall with Joseph of Arimethea and mined tin and was a smelting expert.  Must be true.

Must have been before he moved to the Languedoc with Mary Magdalene and took up growing olives

And then he went to Japan, where he is buried.  Jesus was quite the traveler

Olive rancher or winemaker would be a great career, period.  Or, hey, tin smelter.  If Jesus did it, it's A-OK for me

And here's a picture of his grave to show that he really did

So would I. Will you bring the popcorn, or should I? Wink Grin









.

Offline LBK

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I read that Jesus as a child went to Cornwall with Joseph of Arimethea and mined tin and was a smelting expert.  Must be true.

Must have been before he moved to the Languedoc with Mary Magdalene and took up growing olives

And then he went to Japan, where he is buried.  Jesus was quite the traveler

Olive rancher or winemaker would be a great career, period.  Or, hey, tin smelter.  If Jesus did it, it's A-OK for me

And here's a picture of his grave to show that he really did

So would I. Will you bring the popcorn, or should I? Wink Grin









.

Care to explain the connection between the Old Believers and the contents of this thread?
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I read that Jesus as a child went to Cornwall with Joseph of Arimethea and mined tin and was a smelting expert.  Must be true.

Must have been before he moved to the Languedoc with Mary Magdalene and took up growing olives

And then he went to Japan, where he is buried.  Jesus was quite the traveler

Olive rancher or winemaker would be a great career, period.  Or, hey, tin smelter.  If Jesus did it, it's A-OK for me

And here's a picture of his grave to show that he really did

So would I. Will you bring the popcorn, or should I? Wink Grin









.

Care to explain the connection between the Old Believers and the contents of this thread?

Best I can see it is that Mr. Ellis believes that having his pseudo-historical and pseudo-theological ideas being (rightly) mocked on a generally anonymous internet forum is the same as being literally burned at the stake.

That, sir, is an insult to actual martyrs of any stripe.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 09:01:32 AM by Schultz »
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And quite a -specific- insult to some of us and our very -specific- ancestors who suffered like this.


You were just junk sciencing before.  Now you are being a vile person.

 >:(
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I read that Jesus as a child went to Cornwall with Joseph of Arimethea and mined tin and was a smelting expert.  Must be true.

Must have been before he moved to the Languedoc with Mary Magdalene and took up growing olives

And then he went to Japan, where he is buried.  Jesus was quite the traveler

Olive rancher or winemaker would be a great career, period.  Or, hey, tin smelter.  If Jesus did it, it's A-OK for me

And here's a picture of his grave to show that he really did

So would I. Will you bring the popcorn, or should I? Wink Grin


[img]Picture that has nothing to do with your feelings[img]
.

I fail to see what this has to do with Jesus the winemaker of Languedoc or Jesus the ricegrower of Japan.  Or even Jesus the tin smelter of Cornwall.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 09:08:47 AM by hecma925 »
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Seconding both Schultz's and Denise's posts.

If Mr Ellis is trying to portray himself as suffering unjustly at the hands of forum members and those in academic circles who have, or would, reject his ideas, then he not only deserves no sympathy at all, but is indeed in dire and urgent need of a reality check.

Hubris, much?
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If anyone is interested, I have on hand a copy of Roman Chester City of the Eagles by Dr. David J. P. Mason. (Tempus Publishing, 2001)  There is a more recent work Roman Chester: Fortress at the Edge of the World (the History Press, 2012) that i have not yet seen which also looks good, though I'm not sure if it is an updated version of the book I have or an entirely new work.

Anyway, this book is quite interesting and full of information on the establishment and building of the legionary fortress Deva Victrix.  Dr. Mason writes as a trained archeologist who has worked in the field for decades and has hands-on experience with excavations in/under Chester.  He describes the geography of the region, the Chester Plain, including the rivers and the central ridge of sandstone, evidence of Iron Age hill forts and farms which included forest clearing, the Iron Age peoples who were in the area and the reasons why the Romans chose to build a legionary fort in the area and more.  There is a chapter on the Roman Legion also, which counting soldiers, officers, special sections such as cavalry and artillery, support staff such as doctors and veterinarians and servants and slaves could number more than 6000 persons.

This was not an isolated installation in a distant area.  It was a legionary fortress that followed the "playing card" lay-out, rectangular with rounded corners, that was the common Roman pattern connected via roads to   It had several stages of building over the centuries and Dr. Mason writes of how those can be dated including by inscriptions that have been found such as on lead water pipes as well as the various levels that have been found.  There are maps and diagrams showing how the fortress was laid out in orderly sections,  how the soldiers barracks were built, the elaborate baths which included the classic areas of hot, tepid and cold water as well as other areas for washing and exercise (and decorative mosaics!) and yes, the "Elliptical Building" is discussed in some detail. 

It's quite fascinating (or at least I find it so.   ;)  )






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Offline Ebor

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Ebor, thanks again for further exposing Mr Ellis' abysmally sloppy "scholarship". It is now beyond question as to why no reputable academic publishing house or peer-reviewed journal would want to touch his drivel. If Ellis tried to, he'd be laughed out of the shop, and rightly so.

You're welcome and I hope that the information and links that I have provided have not been boring. 
History/Literature Geek rides again!   ;D
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Why do you believe a failed student with a reIigious agenda, rather than someone who has done 30 years of research? Do you have an agenda?

This is my reply to Verenna's cacophony of deceit:
http://www.westcoasttruth.com/the-thomas-verenna-affair-part-one---the-black-heart-series-by-ralph-ellis.html


Ralph