Author Topic: Conspiracy Theorist Ralph Ellis says Jesus of Nazareth = Jesus ben Gamala  (Read 108513 times)

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Offline ralfellis

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From a review of one of Ralph Ellis' books:

He is averring early Mary and Child have been depicted black in Europe because the Illuminati wanted to present a coded message against the Vatican that the iconic figures came from Egypt, which has an indigenous name translating as black. Supposedly not named after the people living there (as in neighbouring Ethiopia, the land of the "burnt faces" according to the Greeks, I may add), but because the soil of the Nile's banks is black.

Again, let readers make of this what they will.



The secondary title of King Abgarus of Edessa was Kama, which was derived from the Egyptian Kam meaning 'black'.  Kam also means 'Egypt'.   This is the reason for the proliferation of black Madonnas in Europe.  Some people know about all of this.

The reason for the link between Egypt and Jesus, is because that is where he was educated (and also his ancestry).  If you remember the gospels - "out of Egypt i have called my son".   Jesus is also identified in Acts of the Apostles and Josephus Flavius as 'The Egyptian False Prophet'.


Ralph


Offline ralfellis

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Unless you were thinking of another syrian historical document, here is what the DoA says:

Quote
And now I will worship Him, |31 I and Ma'nu,53 my son, and Augustina, and Shalmath the queen.


The quote I gave you was from Moses of Chorene's 'History of the Armenians'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movses_Khorenatsi

The Edessan queen was called Shalmath Helena, with Helena probably referring to her Egypto-Greek ancestry.  We know that her name was also Shalmath, because of a gospel prophecy.





The name of King Abgar's wife was not Helena. Abgar and Monebaz were not the same person. They ruled over two different kingdoms. And though I won't say that there aren't any, I have not been able to find any coins of King Abgar V, so feel free to post any pictures you might have.


The central plank of this entire thesis is that Adiabene and Edessa are the same place - just as the Syriac historians say.


ralph

Offline ralfellis

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Some insight into Mr Ellis' linguistic modus operandi:

The full title is: "Eden in Egypt: A translation of the Book of Genesis out of the original Egyptian text". As there are indeed original Egyptian texts of later Jewish (and other) versions, I was mislead into the idea that this book was about such an Egyptian original of the Genesis account(s). Not so. Instead, Ellis takes the Hebrew words of Genesis one by one and checks them against a real and in some cases speculated Egyptian derivation.

This simply can't be done.



I'm afraid it CAN be done.  What you may not know, is that (most?) Aramaic/Hebrew words were derived from Ancient Egyptian. That is, after all, where the Israelites came from.   Most of the words i used in this book were taken from: "Semitic Words in Egyptian Texts" by James Hoch, which is the standard academic work in this field of linguistics.  Additional words came from the renown Egyptologist, Wallis Budge.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WRuGQgAACAAJ&dq=Semitic+Words+in+Egyptian+Texts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nAkeU_OqFOKs4AS3iIHIDg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg


The only change i made, was to assume that these were Egyptian loan-words in Hebrew.  (Hoch mistakenly assumed they were hebrew loan-words in Egyptian).   But look at this logically.  

 .. Which was the older language here, Egyptian or Hebrew?  
 .. Does a world-power take its language from immigrants, or do immigrants take on the language of their adoptive country?
 .. The adoptive words include ordinal numbers. Are we to believe that the Israelites taught the Egyptians how to count?

No.  These are all Egyptian loan-words, and they form the whole basis for the Hebrew language (probably up to 1,000 words).  In which case, the whole of the Torah is written in a daughter-language of ancient Egyptian.  And in which case, the Torah can also be read in Egyptian.


Ralph


P.S.   Joseph became high priest of Heliopolis, while Moses was brought up in Egypt's royal court and became their top army commander.   Do you think these people could do this, without speaking fluent Egyptian??


Ralph
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 02:45:56 PM by ralfellis »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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From a review of one of Ralph Ellis' books:

He is averring early Mary and Child have been depicted black in Europe because the Illuminati wanted to present a coded message against the Vatican that the iconic figures came from Egypt, which has an indigenous name translating as black. Supposedly not named after the people living there (as in neighbouring Ethiopia, the land of the "burnt faces" according to the Greeks, I may add), but because the soil of the Nile's banks is black.

Again, let readers make of this what they will.



The secondary title of King Abgarus of Edessa was Kama, which was derived from the Egyptian Kam meaning 'black'.  Kam also means 'Egypt'.   This is the reason for the proliferation of black Madonnas in Europe.  Some people know about all of this.
People also have names. I'm sure if some people "know about all of this", you can certainly name these people.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline ralfellis

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My dear Denise, here's plenty more grist for your linguistic mill:

Here, here, and here.

In fact, these articles clearly and cogently show the gross fallacies in Mr Ellis' "scholarship" from various perspectives, not just the linguistic. They also explain his reluctance to submit his work for peer-review.


Sorry to disappoint you, but Mr Tom Verenna is a fraud and a charlatan who has fabricated a review that bears no relationship whatsoever to the books I have written.  He has then denied me the right of reply and hidden behind censorship, as a part of a concerted attack on my work by a group of Mormons.

The story of this sad 'academic' saga has been uplifted onto this site:

How a dishonest and avaristic academia is spreading lies and disinformation, and obscuring the historical truth.
http://www.westcoasttruth.com/the-thomas-verenna-affair-part-one---the-black-heart-series-by-ralph-ellis.html
http://www.westcoasttruth.com/the-thomas-verenna-affair-part-two---the-black-heart-series-by-ralph-ellis.html


Ralph






Offline DeniseDenise

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Frankly....I have seen what you call research and based on the linguistics involved (or not involved as the case really is)  I don't need anyone else's review of your books or work.....to tell me that it is not based in any true Linguistic research standards used by academia.

Conjecture and anacronistic guesses at linguistics are not appropriate...just because you -think- it looks similar...or seems like it might come from that word.....is quite simply 'not good enough to meet standards in the field'



it also was merely an entertaining read.




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Offline ralfellis

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People also have names. I'm sure if some people "know about all of this", you can certainly name these people.


Who commissioned the Black Madonna's? We do not know.  All we do know is that a steady stream of individuals have spread covert and occult (ie: hidden) information about Christianity throughout the centuries.  

If you could not say Mary had an Egyptian heritage, you could always paint her statue black. Or start a story about a pious former prostitute called Mary of Egypt.  

If you could not say Jesus was married to Mary Mag, you could always carve a sculpture with Mary the 'mother' being younger than Jesus (see Michaelangelo's Pieta).

If you could not say that Jesus was a king and his twelve disciples were armed like knights, you could always create a mythology about a mythical king who had twelve knights around a round table. Hence the Arthurian legends.

I have called these individuals the Illuminate, because they have 'seen the light', and it keeps my readers happy too.  Besides, the leaders of London who invited the Dutch William of Orange to become the king of England were likewise known as the Leading Lights of London.  So there is nothing new in this terminology.


Ralph




Offline DeniseDenise

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For the 159th time.


SPECULATION and ENTERTAINMENT are not PROOF.


bye bye now.
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Offline ralfellis

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a fraud and a charlatan


Yes, strong words.   But i do not make that accusation lightly.  

This is a man who claimed to be at a university that denied all knowledge of him.  
This is a man who reviews a book without reading it.  
This is a man who fabricates sections that do not even exist in a book, so that he can criticise those fabricated passages.
This is a man who refuses to withdraw those fabrications when attention was politely drawn to them.
This is a man who refuses a right of reply by an author.


Sorry, but this is not normal academia, this was and is a deliberate hatchet-job on a book that certain people did not like.  I have given this individual a year to amend or withdraw his fake review, but he has refused to do so and has gone into hiding.

My only recourse, is to fight fire with fire.  He has had quite enough warning.  Sorry, but this is the level that this genre has descended to.


Ralph





Offline ralfellis

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Frankly....I have seen what you call research and based on the linguistics involved

Conjecture and anacronistic guesses at linguistics are not appropriate...just because you -think- it looks similar...or seems like it might come from that word.....is quite simply 'not good enough to meet standards in the field'



if you don't like the translations i have used, I would suggest that you publicly criticise Professor James Hoch and the renown Egyptologist, Wallis Budge.  It was their translations and Egyptian-Hebrew word associations that I have used.

Are you saying that Professor James Hoch is "not good enough to meet standards in the field"??  He might be interested to know why.


Ralph
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 03:27:54 PM by ralfellis »

Offline DeniseDenise

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Frankly....I have seen what you call research and based on the linguistics involved

Conjecture and anacronistic guesses at linguistics are not appropriate...just because you -think- it looks similar...or seems like it might come from that word.....is quite simply 'not good enough to meet standards in the field'



if you don't like the translations i have used, I would suggest that you publicly criticise Professor James Hoch and the renown Egyptologist, Wallis Budge.  It was their translations and Egyptian-Hebrew word associations that I have used.

Are you saying that Professor James Hoch is "not good enough to meet standards in the field"??  He might be interested to know why.


Ralph



you have misappropriated his research....changing the context in which it is written to come to your conclusions...



The only change i made, was to assume that these were Egyptian loan-words in Hebrew.  (Hoch mistakenly assumed they were hebrew loan-words in Egyptian).   



Your change.....means it is not HIS work I question but rather yours. End of story. 
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Offline Arachne

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Frankly....I have seen what you call research and based on the linguistics involved

Conjecture and anacronistic guesses at linguistics are not appropriate...just because you -think- it looks similar...or seems like it might come from that word.....is quite simply 'not good enough to meet standards in the field'



if you don't like the translations i have used, I would suggest that you publicly criticise Professor James Hoch and the renown Egyptologist, Wallis Budge.  It was their translations and Egyptian-Hebrew word associations that I have used.

Are you saying that Professor James Hoch is "not good enough to meet standards in the field"??  He might be interested to know why.


Ralph


I don't know who Professor Hoch is, but you discredit him by just mentioning him in the same sentence as Budge. ::)
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline DeniseDenise

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-This- is how I feel about you....



Willy Wonka: [springs up from his chair, angrily] Wrong, sir! Wrong! Under section 37B of the contract signed by him, it states quite clearly that all offers shall become null and void if - and you can read it for yourself in this photostatic copy:

[grabs a magnifying glass and reads]

Willy Wonka: I, the undersigned, shall forfeit all rights, privileges, and licenses herein and herein contained, et cetera, et cetera... Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera... Memo bis punitor delicatum!

[slams the contract copy and the magnifying glass down, continues shouting]

Willy Wonka: It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal! You stole fizzy lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get nothing! You lose! Good day, sir!
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Offline Ansgar

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Unless you were thinking of another syrian historical document, here is what the DoA says:

Quote
And now I will worship Him, |31 I and Ma'nu,53 my son, and Augustina, and Shalmath the queen.


The quote I gave you was from Moses of Chorene's 'History of the Armenians'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movses_Khorenatsi

The Edessan queen was called Shalmath Helena, with Helena probably referring to her Egypto-Greek ancestry.  We know that her name was also Shalmath, because of a gospel prophecy.

I did some research and I found this:

Quote
oses of Chorene also gets confused on some other points. He references Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews as backing up his story about Helena the wife of Abgar fleeing to Jerusalem and taking part in famine relief there. Josephus does relate such a story, but Helena was not the wife of Abgar king of Osroene but the wife of Monobazus king of Adiabene and the mother of Izates, Abgar’s erstwhile ally in the short-lived attempt to put Meherdates on the throne of Parthia. Rather than converting to Christianity, Helena and Izates converted to Judaism. The much more contemporary Josephus is likely a far more reliable source on the matter than Moses, who wrote at least 400 years later.[13]
http://riversfromeden.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/the-letters-of-abgar-v/

It appears that Moses got things mixed up. Josephus clearly states that the Helena, who went to Egypt was Queen Helena of Adiabene. Since Helena of Adiabene is described as being a convert to Judaism and not to Christianity. The only person I have heard referring to Quen Shalmath as Shalmath Helena is you, so I would very much appreciate some textual evidence to back it up with.
Also, to say that Monobaz I was an invention of Josephus is disregarding the historical proof of his existence and the even greater evidence of the existence of his son, Izates. There is no proof that the two men were one and the same person.



The name of King Abgar's wife was not Helena. Abgar and Monebaz were not the same person. They ruled over two different kingdoms. And though I won't say that there aren't any, I have not been able to find any coins of King Abgar V, so feel free to post any pictures you might have.


The central plank of this entire thesis is that Adiabene and Edessa are the same place - just as the Syriac historians say.


ralph

They do not say that Edessa and Adiabene were the same place. And even if they did, we know it would be inaccurate, since Osroene and Adiabene are described by numerous historical as two different places. Adiabene was mentioned by Pliny the Elder, Ammianus and Strabo. Osroene is also mentioned by Pliny and in roman sources, and by Sozomen. They have two completely diffent line of rulers. They cannot have been the same place.  
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 03:52:02 PM by Ansgar »
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Offline Ansgar

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Just to outline it all:

  - The Queen Helena  in question was married to King Monobaz I of Adiabene.

  - King Monobaz I of Adiabene and King Abgar V of Edessa were two different historical rulers.

  - Edessa, the capital of Osroene was not situated in Adiabene.

  - The coin, which Mr. Ellis posted, depicts King Abgar X.

  - I still haven't seen any evidence of the existence of a king by the name Iza-Manu. The closest thing we have come to this name is King Izates bar Monobaz.

  - If it is really Ellis' belief that King Izates was this Iza-Manu, I still haven't seen any evidence. Actually, I have seen very little that does not seem to imply that Iza-Manu is a   
    purely invented name without any basis in fact.

  - Jesus/Joshua ben Gamala was not a king, but a High Priest. It is true that his wife, Martha, was one of the richest women in Jerusalem, but she was no queen.

  - So far, I have not seen anything that proves that Jesus ben Gamala and Jesus Christ were the same person.
 
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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My dear Denise, here's plenty more grist for your linguistic mill:

Here, here, and here.

In fact, these articles clearly and cogently show the gross fallacies in Mr Ellis' "scholarship" from various perspectives, not just the linguistic. They also explain his reluctance to submit his work for peer-review.


Sorry to disappoint you, but Mr Tom Verenna is a fraud and a charlatan who has fabricated a review that bears no relationship whatsoever to the books I have written.  He has then denied me the right of reply and hidden behind censorship, as a part of a concerted attack on my work by a group of Mormons.

The story of this sad 'academic' saga has been uplifted onto this site:

How a dishonest and avaristic academia is spreading lies and disinformation, and obscuring the historical truth.
http://www.westcoasttruth.com/the-thomas-verenna-affair-part-one---the-black-heart-series-by-ralph-ellis.html
http://www.westcoasttruth.com/the-thomas-verenna-affair-part-two---the-black-heart-series-by-ralph-ellis.html


Ralph
Of course! I notice that you are the author of these "refutations". How convenient! Even when citing authorities "outside yourself", you're still citing yourself.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 04:58:30 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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People also have names. I'm sure if some people "know about all of this", you can certainly name these people.


Who commissioned the Black Madonna's? We do not know.  All we do know is that a steady stream of individuals have spread covert and occult (ie: hidden) information about Christianity throughout the centuries.  

If you could not say Mary had an Egyptian heritage, you could always paint her statue black. Or start a story about a pious former prostitute called Mary of Egypt.  

If you could not say Jesus was married to Mary Mag, you could always carve a sculpture with Mary the 'mother' being younger than Jesus (see Michaelangelo's Pieta).

If you could not say that Jesus was a king and his twelve disciples were armed like knights, you could always create a mythology about a mythical king who had twelve knights around a round table. Hence the Arthurian legends.

I have called these individuals the Illuminate, because they have 'seen the light', and it keeps my readers happy too.  Besides, the leaders of London who invited the Dutch William of Orange to become the king of England were likewise known as the Leading Lights of London.  So there is nothing new in this terminology.


Ralph
You're not naming any of these "sources" you claim to have. Please try again.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 04:58:03 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Ebor

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  Besides, the leaders of London who invited the Dutch William of Orange to become the king of England were likewise known as the Leading Lights of London.  So there is nothing new in this terminology.

"Invited" William of Orange?  William had been angling and politically working on getting the throne of England for a very long time before he was crowned.  He was a descendent of King Charles I through his eldest daughter Mary, the Princess Royal who had married William II of Orange. That made him fourth in the line of succession to the throne of Charles II after James and his two daughters Mary and Anne.

William then married his first cousin Mary the eldest daughter of James II and VII.  She was the heir presumptive to the throne of England and if her father had not had a male heir with his second wife, Mary of Modena, she would simply have become queen upon her father's death.  There's no peculiar, mystical, hidden process there at all.  But with the birth of the boy and that his father the king was RC (along with other political complications) that was the point at which William and English parliamentarians brought about the "Glorious Revolution of 1688".  A number of books on this period and on William III have been written.

Also the phrase "leading lights" is not a title of a secret group but a phrase that means "A person who is prominent or influential in a particular field or organization"    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/leading-light
  
That you capitalize the phase may seem to give the idea that it was the name of a group or organization But the only reference to some sort of name of a group that I have come across so far has been in your work.  Citing yourself or your own particular word inventions does not make a reliable support.

Doing a search for "Leading Lights of London" gets many hits for a company that does work with stained (leaded) glass.  http://www.leadinglighter.co.uk/




« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 09:57:10 PM by Ebor »
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Offline Ebor

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 ... Josephus says Queen Helena was married to King Monobazus of Adiabene.
 ... The Syriac historians say Queen Helena was married to King Abgarus of Edessa.

You have a limited number of options here. Either one of these historians was wrong, or perhaps King Monobazus and King Abgarus were the same person. Since King Monobazus is a figment of Josephus' imagination, it is likely that Josephus was (deliberately) wrong, and the Syriacs are right.  

Or another option is that there was more than one woman with the name of Helena....
Or that someone writing things down made a mistake
or...

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Offline LBK

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  Besides, the leaders of London who invited the Dutch William of Orange to become the king of England were likewise known as the Leading Lights of London.  So there is nothing new in this terminology.

"Invited" William of Orange?  William had been angling and politically working on getting the throne of England for a very long time before he was crowned.  He was a descendent of King Charles I through his eldest daughter Mary, the Princess Royal who had married William II of Orange. That made him fourth in the line of succession to the throne of Charles II after James and his two daughters Mary and Anne.

William then married his first cousin Mary the eldest daughter of James II and VII.  She was the heir presumptive to the throne of England and if her father had not had a male heir with his second wife, Mary of Modena, she would simply have become queen upon her father's death.  There's no peculiar, mystical, hidden process there at all.  But with the birth of the boy and that his father the king was RC (along with other political complications) that was the point at which William and English parliamentarians brought about the "Glorious Revolution of 1688".  A number of books on this period and on William III have been written.

Also the phrase "leading lights" is not a title of a secret group but a phrase that means "A person who is prominent or influential in a particular field or organization"    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/leading-light
  
That you capitalize the phase may seem to give the idea that it was the name of a group or organization But the only reference to some sort of name of a group that I have come across so far has been in your work.  Citing yourself or your own particular word inventions does not make a reliable support.

Doing a search for "Leading Lights of London" gets many hits for a company that does work with stained (leaded) glass.  http://www.leadinglighter.co.uk/

Thank you, Ebor, for highlighting Mr Ellis' deficient grasp of the history of his own nation, the sort that every schoolchild there would know.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

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Quote
if you think I have the time or inclination to reproduce all 5,000 pages of the evidence I have amassed here, you are much mistaken.

I doubt anyone here is asking for that. The sections relevant to the matters raised will do. If they're not in digital form, then titles, authors and ISBN numbers will help. Such publications might even be available on Google Books, and some here also have access to online university libraries and JSTOR.

No response yet from you on this, Ralph. Is there a problem?
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Offline ralfellis

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It appears that Moses got things mixed up. Josephus clearly states that the Helena, who went to Egypt was Queen Helena of Adiabene. Since Helena of Adiabene is described as being a convert to Judaism and not to Christianity. The only person I have heard referring to Queen Shalmath as Shalmath Helena is you, so I would very much appreciate some textual evidence to back it up with.
Also, to say that Monobaz I was an invention of Josephus is disregarding the historical proof of his existence and the even greater evidence of the existence of his son, Izates. There is no proof that the two men were one and the same person.


Yes, Moses of Chorene was trying to make Queen Helena a Christian, just as most Christians try to make Jesus a Christian.  But Jesus was not a Christian, he was a circumcised Nazarene Jew who followed every 'jot and tittle' of Mosaic Law.  It was Saul who was opposed to circumcision and preached faith.

So Moses' Christian bias alters nothing about the history he wrote, or the true beliefs of Queen Helena.  Besides, other Syriac historians say that Helena was Edessan.

You say that Adiabene and King Izates exist. Again, i ask you for any coins from this great kingdom.  We have plenty from Edessa, so why none from Adiabene?  The truth is that Adiabene is a figment of Josephus' imagination. He was trying to divert attention away from Edessa, and he succeeded too.  Nobody has seen his deceit for the last thousand years or more.  

Try to find Edessa or King Abgarus in the works of Josephus - they are not there, are they.  Why?  How did this influential city and king escape the quill of Josephus??  They did not, of course, Josephus mere changed them into Adiabene and the imaginary King Monobazus.  




Adiabene was mentioned by Pliny the Elder, Ammianus and Strabo. Osroene is also mentioned by Pliny and in roman sources, and by Sozomen. They have two completely diffent line of rulers. They cannot have been the same place.  

But Strabo does not mention Adiabene in relation to this region at all, he mentions Artakene instead, which is a completely different region. (Strabo 16.1.4) Strabo does go on to mention Adiabene later in this same chapter, but merely says that it lies in the extreme west of Parthia; that it shares a border with Armenia (in the north); and that it has its own prince. (Strabo 16:1:19). But this description could easily apply to Edessa, as much as it does to Arbela, if not more so.

The other Roman accounts of Adiabene are also about Edessa, rather than Arbella. I comment on all of these references.

.
.
.

However, the account from Acts of the Apostles is probably the best evidence we have. Acts says of Queen Helena:

And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great famine throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea. Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. (Acts 11:27)”

So here we have someone called Agabus forecasting the Judaean famine in AD 47, while in the historical record it was Queen Helena who sent the food aid to Judaea in AD 47. Since Queen Helena was married to King Abgarus of Edessa, as we have already seen, it is highly likely that the Agabus being mentioned in Acts of the Apostles was actually King Abgarus of Edessa himself.  And this is confirmed by Professor Robert Eisenman in his "Conversions of King Agbarus and Queen Helena of Adiabene". This short manuscript is available on the web.  

Professor Eisenman is certain that the biblical Agabus is King Abgarus. But since it was King Abgarus who was sending famine relief in this verse (instead of the Adiabene monarchy), and since Queen Helena was the queen of Edessa (according to the Syriac historians) it follows that this is an account of the same event, and so Adiabene and Edessa must be the same location.

But do note that the couriers who took the famine relief money from Edessa down to Judaea in AD 47 were the apostles Saul and Barnabas.  Do you see now why Edessa is so central to the gospel story, and how it has been deliberately deleted from all of these records.

In reality, this sending of ambassadors from Edessa to Jerusalem is one and the same as the account in the Doctrine of Addai. Thus the sending of ambassadors to Jesus was the sending of Saul and Barnabas, and Jesus recieved them in Jerusalem in AD 47 -  and sent a reply to King Abgarus. (King Abgarus was not allowed to travel, because the Romans had banned him from doing so, suspecting he might organise a revolt.  This is why we hear so much about Queen Shalmath-Helena, and very little about King Abgarus-Monobazus.)


Ralph

« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:16:34 AM by ralfellis »

Offline ralfellis

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Quote
if you think I have the time or inclination to reproduce all 5,000 pages of the evidence I have amassed here, you are much mistaken.

I doubt anyone here is asking for that. The sections relevant to the matters raised will do. If they're not in digital form, then titles, authors and ISBN numbers will help. Such publications might even be available on Google Books, and some here also have access to online university libraries and JSTOR.

No response yet from you on this, Ralph. Is there a problem?

I have nine books in this series.  I am not going to trawl all of them looking for every single reference.  Sorry, I simply don't have the time.

Ralph

Offline primuspilus

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Quote
if you think I have the time or inclination to reproduce all 5,000 pages of the evidence I have amassed here, you are much mistaken.

I doubt anyone here is asking for that. The sections relevant to the matters raised will do. If they're not in digital form, then titles, authors and ISBN numbers will help. Such publications might even be available on Google Books, and some here also have access to online university libraries and JSTOR.

No response yet from you on this, Ralph. Is there a problem?

I have nine books in this series.  I am not going to trawl all of them looking for every single reference.  Sorry, I simply don't have the time.

Ralph
Writing a book does not make you an expert, nor correct on any issue. It just makes your fallacies more accessible.

Quote
The truth is that Adiabene is a figment of Josephus' imagination
Evidently, its the imagination of the the American Israel Numismatic Association since they have the Adiabene coins on display. Its not entirely uncommon knowledge for numismatists (of which Im an enthusiastic amateur, but I digress......) that these coins exist.

PP
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Its not entirely uncommon knowledge for numismatists (of which Im an enthusiastic amateur, but I digress......)

 :)

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Offline ralfellis

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  Besides, the leaders of London who invited the Dutch William of Orange to become the king of England were likewise known as the Leading Lights of London.  So there is nothing new in this terminology.

"Invited" William of Orange?  William had been angling and politically working on getting the throne of England for a very long time before he was crowned.  He was a descendent of King Charles I through his eldest daughter Mary, the Princess Royal who had married William II of Orange. That made him fourth in the line of succession to the throne of Charles II after James and his two daughters Mary and Anne.

William then married his first cousin Mary the eldest daughter of James II and VII.  She was the heir presumptive to the throne of England and if her father had not had a male heir with his second wife, Mary of Modena, she would simply have become queen upon her father's death.  There's no peculiar, mystical, hidden process there at all.  But with the birth of the boy and that his father the king was RC (along with other political complications) that was the point at which William and English parliamentarians brought about the "Glorious Revolution of 1688".  A number of books on this period and on William III have been written.

Also the phrase "leading lights" is not a title of a secret group but a phrase that means "A person who is prominent or influential in a particular field or organization"    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/leading-light
  
That you capitalize the phase may seem to give the idea that it was the name of a group or organization But the only reference to some sort of name of a group that I have come across so far has been in your work.  Citing yourself or your own particular word inventions does not make a reliable support.

Doing a search for "Leading Lights of London" gets many hits for a company that does work with stained (leaded) glass.  http://www.leadinglighter.co.uk/



Quote:
This meant that James II’s Protestant daughter, Mary, wife of William of Orange, was no longer next in line to the throne. Alarmed by the situation, a group of James's Protestant opponents secretly invited William to invade England and oust his father-in-law.  William’s mighty invasion force landed in Devon in November 1688.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/people/william_iii_of_orange

There are any number of historical books that will say the same as the BBC. Look them up.


As to 'leading lights', this is a Masonic phrase that has passed into normal useage.  Much the same as 'pillar of society', 'on the level', 'bit of a square', or 'upright gentleman', they are all Masonic phrases.

Ralph

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Why are you here?

You don't want to actually discuss (this is a forum aka discussion board) in that someone makes a point, or asks a question, others refute, agree and in both cases offer proof when requested.

You have been asked by people to provide something other than your word, and cannot seem to do so, this ending any real productive 'discussion' of this


'Believe me' is simply not good enough.

Others have refuted points in your posts based on empirical evidence or research which they have provided for all.  Your counter assertions carry no evidence and you just keep repeating there is too much, you have written nine books, blah blah.

I am sorry if you came here thinking to bowl over a bunch of ignorant folks who would all see your 'research' and think you a genius and rush off to find your none books.

Wrong board for that. No one here will ooh and aww over your 'discoveries' until you do more than blow hot erroneous air at us.

Either participate or leave. Seriously.
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Quote
Why are you here?
To push his nonsense. Do some searching around. He's been debunked at quite a few websites and blogs.

PP
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Why are you here?
To push his nonsense. Do some searching around. He's been debunked at quite a few websites and blogs.

PP


erm aware of that....

the point is...no one here is falling for it....he can leave now.

*makes a waving motion*
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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You don't want to actually discuss (this is a forum aka discussion board) in that someone makes a point, or asks a question, others refute, agree and in both cases offer proof when requested.

You have been asked by people to provide something other than your word, and cannot seem to do so, this ending any real productive 'discussion' of this

'Believe me' is simply not good enough.



Every post I have made on this page has a relevant quotation and reference, where it is possible to give one. 

But if you are looking for a reference for "the legend of King Arthur is based upon the gospels" (for instance), you are out of luck.  There isn't one.  That is the whole point of original research.  I list all the similarities, and it is for readers to make up their minds.  If you don't like it, don't read it.  Try another thread. 


But some people are obviously finding this thread stimulating, even if they disagree with me.  They are finding new texts and new perspectives on their beliefs that they had not seen before.  That may even reinforce their beliefs, who knows. Its none of my concern.  All I want to do is to demonstrate that my arguments are based on real research, and to see if anyone has any interesting perspectives and arguments in return.  Nobody knows everything, and it is jolly useful to get ideas and arguments back from a few dozen people who know this subject.


Oh, and I only came here, because members of this forum were taking my name and reputation in vain.  If you wish to criticise someone, do not be surprised that they drop in to defend their reputation.


Ralph


Offline Ansgar

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It appears that Moses got things mixed up. Josephus clearly states that the Helena, who went to Egypt was Queen Helena of Adiabene. Since Helena of Adiabene is described as being a convert to Judaism and not to Christianity. The only person I have heard referring to Queen Shalmath as Shalmath Helena is you, so I would very much appreciate some textual evidence to back it up with.
Also, to say that Monobaz I was an invention of Josephus is disregarding the historical proof of his existence and the even greater evidence of the existence of his son, Izates. There is no proof that the two men were one and the same person.


Yes, Moses of Chorene was trying to make Queen Helena a Christian, just as most Christians try to make Jesus a Christian.  But Jesus was not a Christian, he was a circumcised Nazarene Jew who followed every 'jot and tittle' of Mosaic Law.  It was Saul who was opposed to circumcision and preached faith.

So Moses' Christian bias alters nothing about the history he wrote, or the true beliefs of Queen Helena.  Besides, other Syriac historians say that Helena was Edessan.

You say that Adiabene and King Izates exist. Again, i ask you for any coins from this great kingdom.  We have plenty from Edessa, so why none from Adiabene?  The truth is that Adiabene is a figment of Josephus' imagination. He was trying to divert attention away from Edessa, and he succeeded too.  Nobody has seen his deceit for the last thousand years or more.  

Try to find Edessa or King Abgarus in the works of Josephus - they are not there, are they.  Why?  How did this influential city and king escape the quill of Josephus??  They did not, of course, Josephus mere changed them into Adiabene and the imaginary King Monobazus.  

Please decide. You say that Jesus was a nazarene, but I have seen no evidence that Jesus ben Gamala was one. And you claim that they are the same person.
On page 22 of this document from the American Israel Numismatic Association, there is an image of a coin from Adiabene.
http://www.theshekel.org/Shekel%20May-August%202011.pdf

And I would like references to these other syrian historians.

Adiabene was mentioned by Pliny the Elder, Ammianus and Strabo. Osroene is also mentioned by Pliny and in roman sources, and by Sozomen. They have two completely diffent line of rulers. They cannot have been the same place.  

But Strabo does not mention Adiabene in relation to this region at all, he mentions Artakene instead, which is a completely different region. (Strabo 16.1.4) Strabo does go on to mention Adiabene later in this same chapter, but merely says that it lies in the extreme west of Parthia; that it shares a border with Armenia (in the north); and that it has its own prince. (Strabo 16:1:19). But this description could easily apply to Edessa, as much as it does to Arbela, if not more so.
Yes he does. He mentions Adiabene as an assyrian kingdom, which it was. You can't just assume that all historians accidentally switched Adiabene with Edessa, especially not since Edessa is a city and Adiabene is a country.

Quote
1. ASSYRIA is contiguous to Persia and Susiana. This name is given to Babylonia, and to a large tract of country around; this tract contains Aturia, in which is Nineveh, the Apolloniatis, the Elymaei, the Parastaose, and the Chalonitis about Mount Zagrum, the plains about Nineveh, namely, Dolomene, Calachene, Chazene, and Adiabene, the nations of Mesopotamia, bordering upon the Gordyaei; the Mygdones about Nisibis, extending to the Zeugma of the Euphrates, and to the great range of country on the other side that river, occupied by Arabians, and by those people who are properly called Syrians in the present age. This last people extend as far as the Cilicians, Phoenicians, and Jews, to the sea opposite the Sea of Egypt, and to the Bay of Issus.
http://rbedrosian.com/Classic/strabo16.htm

The other Roman accounts of Adiabene are also about Edessa, rather than Arbella. I comment on all of these references.

Really?  Please show me how Pliny the Elder and Ammianus confused the two?


However, the account from Acts of the Apostles is probably the best evidence we have. Acts says of Queen Helena:

And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great famine throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea. Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. (Acts 11:27)”

So here we have someone called Agabus forecasting the Judaean famine in AD 47, while in the historical record it was Queen Helena who sent the food aid to Judaea in AD 47. Since Queen Helena was married to King Abgarus of Edessa, as we have already seen, it is highly likely that the Agabus being mentioned in Acts of the Apostles was actually King Abgarus of Edessa himself.  And this is confirmed by Professor Robert Eisenman in his "Conversions of King Agbarus and Queen Helena of Adiabene". This short manuscript is available on the web.  

Professor Eisenman is certain that the biblical Agabus is King Abgarus. But since it was King Abgarus who was sending famine relief in this verse (instead of the Adiabene monarchy), and since Queen Helena was the queen of Edessa (according to the Syriac historians) it follows that this is an account of the same event, and so Adiabene and Edessa must be the same location.

But do note that the couriers who took the famine relief money from Edessa down to Judaea in AD 47 were the apostles Saul and Barnabas.  Do you see now why Edessa is so central to the gospel story, and how it has been deliberately deleted from all of these records.

In reality, this sending of ambassadors from Edessa to Jerusalem is one and the same as the account in the Doctrine of Addai. Thus the sending of ambassadors to Jesus was the sending of Saul and Barnabas, and Jesus recieved them in Jerusalem in AD 47 -  and sent a reply to King Abgarus. (King Abgarus was not allowed to travel, because the Romans had banned him from doing so, suspecting he might organise a revolt.  This is why we hear so much about Queen Shalmath-Helena, and very little about King Abgarus-Monobazus.)


Ralph



That is a logical fallacy. First, there is the fact that the two names have completely different meanings. Secondly, the fact that Helena brought supplies from Egypt does in no way mean that she was the only one. Christians could easily have done the same. Besides, it is clear that the Antioch in question is the actual city of Antioch in modern day Turkey. This is especially evident since the Antioch of the New Testament is described as a greek city. Your theories are completely without basis.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:56:02 AM by Ansgar »
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Offline ralfellis

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The truth is that Adiabene is a figment of Josephus' imagination
Evidently, its the imagination of the the American Israel Numismatic Association since they have the Adiabene coins on display. Its not entirely uncommon knowledge for numismatists (of which Im an enthusiastic amateur, but I digress......) that these coins exist.

PP
[/quote]


Yes, the anomalous coin.

There were kings of Edessa who were called Monobazus, as we have the title 'bar Monobazus'. And the profile of this king, is the Edessan profile. So this probably is an Edessan coin.

The only problem with this coin is the date, as the Monobazus kings of Edessa were from a later era (as far as we are aware, but the data is scanty).

Still working on this coin, as I have not seen the original as yet.


Ralph







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Oh, and I only came here, because members of this forum were taking my name and reputation in vain.  If you wish to criticise someone, do not be surprised that they drop in to defend their reputation.


Ralph



Yes, the reactions of both PP and Denise were rather rude. You were called out by name in a subject line on this forum. Other persons of interest have dropped by just to defend their terrible elocution of the American tongue.

I haven't read this thread, cause I don't care, but keep in mind most "discussion forums" are hardly about discussion as Denise suggested, rather they are about people who have niche interests who get together to pretend those interests are more important in the world than they really are.

Ravosky, who started the thread, is a genuine(ly) curious fellow who takes a long look at all sorts of so called conspiracy theories about all manner of things. His mentioning of you was likely done in the best of spirits.

It looks like you and Ansgar are having a discussion amazingly enough, so I leave you back to it. 

Offline ralfellis

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That have to be one of the biggest logical fallacies I have ever seen. First, there is the fact that the two names have completely different meanings. Secondly, the fact that helena brought supplies from Egypt does in no way mean that she was the only one. Christians could easily have done the same.

Besides, it is clear that the Antioch in question is the actual city of Antioch in modern day Turkey. This is especially evident since the Antioch of the New Testament is described as a greek city. Your theories are completely without basis.


I think you are forgetting that:

The person giving famine relief in Antioch in AD 47 was called Abagus, according to Acts of the Apostles.
Abagus has been identified as King Abgarus by Professor Eisenman.
King Abgarus came from Edessa.
Edessa was called Antioch.
Edessa had been a Greek city, which is why it was called Antioch.
Edessa had been a Greek city, which is why it was called Edessa
 .. .. .. (hint: Edessa was the capital city of Greece.)

The Syriac historians say Queen Helena was married to King Abgarus of Edessa.
Queen Helena famously gave famine relief in AD 47.
Queen Helena was from Edessa, which was called Antioch.
Abagus was in Antioch.
Thus the famine relief given by Abagus (ie: Abgarus) just has to be the famine relief given by Queen Helena.
Thus the famine relief came from Edessa.
Thus Saul and Barnabas were closely connected to the royal family at Edessa.


You go on to say: "it is clear that the Antioch in question is the actual city of Antioch in modern day Turkey".  
Why is it clear?  Show us the evidence.   It has been said on this forum that i simply assert things, but here is an assertion without foundation. Please show me the evidence that Antioch refers to modern Antakya?


Ralph



Offline Schultz

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You don't want to actually discuss (this is a forum aka discussion board) in that someone makes a point, or asks a question, others refute, agree and in both cases offer proof when requested.

You have been asked by people to provide something other than your word, and cannot seem to do so, this ending any real productive 'discussion' of this

'Believe me' is simply not good enough.



Every post I have made on this page has a relevant quotation and reference, where it is possible to give one. 

But if you are looking for a reference for "the legend of King Arthur is based upon the gospels" (for instance), you are out of luck.  There isn't one.  That is the whole point of original research.  I list all the similarities, and it is for readers to make up their minds.  If you don't like it, don't read it.  Try another thread. 


But some people are obviously finding this thread stimulating, even if they disagree with me.  They are finding new texts and new perspectives on their beliefs that they had not seen before.  That may even reinforce their beliefs, who knows. Its none of my concern.  All I want to do is to demonstrate that my arguments are based on real research, and to see if anyone has any interesting perspectives and arguments in return.  Nobody knows everything, and it is jolly useful to get ideas and arguments back from a few dozen people who know this subject.


Oh, and I only came here, because members of this forum were taking my name and reputation in vain.  If you wish to criticise someone, do not be surprised that they drop in to defend their reputation.


Ralph



Now you think you're a deity. 

Great.
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Offline ralfellis

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....

Evidently, its the imagination of the the American Israel Numismatic Association since they have the Adiabene coins on display. Its not entirely uncommon knowledge for numismatists (of which Im an enthusiastic amateur, but I digress......) that these coins exist.

PP


Yes, the anomalous coin.

There were kings of Edessa who were called Monobazus, as we have the title 'bar Monobazus'. And the profile of this king, is the Edessan profile. So this probably is an Edessan coin.

The only problem with this coin is the date, as the Monobazus kings of Edessa were from a later era (as far as we are aware, but the data is scanty).

Still working on this coin, as I have not seen the original as yet.


Ralph
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 12:29:31 PM by ralfellis »

Offline Ansgar

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That have to be one of the biggest logical fallacies I have ever seen. First, there is the fact that the two names have completely different meanings. Secondly, the fact that helena brought supplies from Egypt does in no way mean that she was the only one. Christians could easily have done the same.

Besides, it is clear that the Antioch in question is the actual city of Antioch in modern day Turkey. This is especially evident since the Antioch of the New Testament is described as a greek city. Your theories are completely without basis.


I think you are forgetting that:

The person giving famine relief in Antioch in AD 47 was called Abagus, according to Acts of the Apostles.
Abagus has been identified as King Abgarus by Professor Eisenman.
King Abgarus came from Edessa.
Edessa was called Antioch.
Edessa had been a Greek city, which is why it was called Antioch.
Edessa had been a Greek city, which is why it was called Edessa
 .. .. .. (hint: Edessa was the capital city of Greece.)

The Syriac historians say Queen Helena was married to King Abgarus of Edessa.
Queen Helena famously gave famine relief in AD 47.
Queen Helena was from Edessa, which was called Antioch.
Abagus was in Antioch.
Thus the famine relief given by Abagus (ie: Abgarus) just has to be the famine relief given by Queen Helena.
Thus the famine relief came from Edessa.
Thus Saul and Barnabas were closely connected to the royal family at Edessa.

Edessa was ruled by Parthians, Arabs, Armenians and Romans, but it didn't become greek before the Byzantine Emperor Justinian rebuild it and it was certainly not the capital of Greece.
The biblical figure was not named Abagus but Agabus. The two names are completely different and it makes no sense why anyone should have confused the two.

And you still haven't mentioned exactly which syrian historians you are referring to. You said that there were others then Moses. Who is it?

You go on to say: "it is clear that the Antioch in question is the actual city of Antioch in modern day Turkey".  
Why is it clear?  Show us the evidence.   It has been said on this forum that i simply assert things, but here is an assertion without foundation. Please show me the evidence that Antioch refers to modern Antakya?


Ralph




I assume that you have read the Acts of thr Apostles. The city is described as greek. Edessa was assyrian.

Quote
Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews. 20 Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus. 21 The Lord’s hand was with them, and a great number of people believed and turned to the Lord.

22 News of this reached the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. 23 When he arrived and saw what the grace of God had done, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts. 24 He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.

25 Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
Acts 11:19-26
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Offline primuspilus

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There were kings of Edessa who were called Monobazus, as we have the title 'bar Monobazus'. And the profile of this king, is the Edessan profile. So this probably is an Edessan coin
The striking location has been verified. Its not an Edessan coin. Also, I'd point out there are multiple coins. You asked for coinage as proof, and I gave it to you. You can't just shove that fact away because its inconvenient. Your theory holds no weight. You stated what evidence you would accept, and I gave it to you.

PP
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Why are you here?

You don't want to actually discuss (this is a forum aka discussion board) in that someone makes a point, or asks a question, others refute, agree and in both cases offer proof when requested.

You have been asked by people to provide something other than your word, and cannot seem to do so, this ending any real productive 'discussion' of this


'Believe me' is simply not good enough.

Others have refuted points in your posts based on empirical evidence or research which they have provided for all.  Your counter assertions carry no evidence and you just keep repeating there is too much, you have written nine books, blah blah.

I am sorry if you came here thinking to bowl over a bunch of ignorant folks who would all see your 'research' and think you a genius and rush off to find your none books.

Wrong board for that. No one here will ooh and aww over your 'discoveries' until you do more than blow hot erroneous air at us.

Either participate or leave. Seriously.
Chill, Denise. There's no call to be so rude to one of our guests. :police:
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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You don't want to actually discuss (this is a forum aka discussion board) in that someone makes a point, or asks a question, others refute, agree and in both cases offer proof when requested.

You have been asked by people to provide something other than your word, and cannot seem to do so, this ending any real productive 'discussion' of this

'Believe me' is simply not good enough.



Every post I have made on this page has a relevant quotation and reference, where it is possible to give one.
And in most of your posts, it has apparently not been possible to give a quotation and reference from someone other than yourself.

But if you are looking for a reference for "the legend of King Arthur is based upon the gospels" (for instance), you are out of luck.  There isn't one.  That is the whole point of original research.  I list all the similarities, and it is for readers to make up their minds.  If you don't like it, don't read it.  Try another thread.
If everyone on this forum were to follow this advice, Ralph, you would soon not have an audience at all.
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Offline ralfellis

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The biblical figure was not named Abagus but Agabus. The two names are completely different and it makes no sense why anyone should have confused the two.

And you still haven't mentioned exactly which syrian historians you are referring to. You said that there were others then Moses. Who is it?


Yes, I wrote Agabus in the book, but I mistyped Abagus here. Professor Eisenman does the same in his manuscript. Its confusing.

Actually, the change from Abagus to Agabus was deliberate, because Agabus means 'locust', the same nickname that was given to Jesus in the Talmud.  The Edessans were nicknamed 'locusts' because they came from the east and they devastated Judaea in the Jewish Revolt (just like the locusts of the plagues).


Another reference to Queen Helena comes from Kirakos Ganjakets in his History of the Armenians when he says:
She (the mother of Jalal) astonished all who saw or heard about her. For she had spent all her possessions for the poor and needy (like Abgar’s wife, Heghine) and she fed herself by her own embroidery work.

This is a later work, based upon previous histories.




I assume that you have read the Acts of thr Apostles. The city is described as greek. Edessa was assyrian.


Edessa was given that name because it was a Greek city before it became Syriac-Parthian.  That is why it used the name Edessa. -  Edessa was the capital city of Greece.  You cannot get more Greek than that.

In fact, the mention of 'it is a Greek city' is probably a covert reference to Edessa. If you could not mention its name (just as Josephus never mentions Edessa), you could always say 'it is a Greek city' called Antioch, in the sure knowledge that the educated of the era knew that the Greek capital was called Edessa, and the Syrian Edessa was called Antioch.

Ralph


Offline ralfellis

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The striking location has been verified. Its not an Edessan coin. Also, I'd point out there are multiple coins. You asked for coinage as proof, and I gave it to you. You can't just shove that fact away because its inconvenient. Your theory holds no weight. You stated what evidence you would accept, and I gave it to you.

PP

Has the mint been verified? The only reference I have says it was an Arbela mint because the king was called Monobazus.  But that is not evidence.  If you have any further evidence, I would be most grateful to receive it.  

As you know, some kings of Edessa used the title 'Izates', and so the Edessans were using titles normally ascribed to 'Adiabene'. So the appearance of an 'Adiabenian' title does not mean the coin came from Arbela, it could easily have been Edessan.

You say there are multiple coins, but Hendid says he has only ever seen one coin, and he is the authority in this field.   Do you have evidence of others?  I have only seen the one, and even then not the original, only a reproduction.

Regards the coin itself, I am suspicious of the date and the inscription. The date is said to be early. But the coin is in Greek, and 1st century Adiabene (ie: Edessa) was said to be Aramaic speaking according to Josephus.  Josephus says he sent his books there (ie: to Adiabene - Edessa) in Aramaic, not Greek, because that was the language of the region.  

And all the early coins of Edessa are Aramaic, not Greek. The Edessan coins only became Greek in the 2nd century. And this coin follows the style and legend of Edessan coins, rather than Parthian coins.  Parthian coins are pseudo-Greek, but do not give the king-name in this style.

You are right to raise this issue, but until the coin can be verified and reliably linked to Arbela, it is interesting but not evidence that Adiabene was Arbela. There is too much contrary evidence for that suggests otgerwise.

See the Shekel Aug 2011
http://www.theshekel.org/Shekel%20May-August%202011.pdf

Ralph

« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 04:49:54 AM by ralfellis »

Offline Ansgar

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The biblical figure was not named Abagus but Agabus. The two names are completely different and it makes no sense why anyone should have confused the two.

And you still haven't mentioned exactly which syrian historians you are referring to. You said that there were others then Moses. Who is it?


Yes, I wrote Agabus in the book, but I mistyped Abagus here. Professor Eisenman does the same in his manuscript. Its confusing.

Actually, the change from Abagus to Agabus was deliberate, because Agabus means 'locust', the same nickname that was given to Jesus in the Talmud.  The Edessans were nicknamed 'locusts' because they came from the east and they devastated Judaea in the Jewish Revolt (just like the locusts of the plagues).
That's all very fine, but what exactly does that got to do with this discussion. You still haven't provided any evidence that Agabus and Abgar were the same person.

Another reference to Queen Helena comes from Kirakos Ganjakets in his History of the Armenians when he says:
She (the mother of Jalal) astonished all who saw or heard about her. For she had spent all her possessions for the poor and needy (like Abgar’s wife, Heghine) and she fed herself by her own embroidery work.

This is a later work, based upon previous histories.

Kirakos Ganjakets described historical events from the 4th to the 12th century, and from what I could find, the Jalal you mentioned, is Jalal al-Din, who was a contemporary of Kirakos. 



I assume that you have read the Acts of thr Apostles. The city is described as greek. Edessa was assyrian.


Edessa was given that name because it was a Greek city before it became Syriac-Parthian.  That is why it used the name Edessa. -  Edessa was the capital city of Greece.  You cannot get more Greek than that.

In fact, the mention of 'it is a Greek city' is probably a covert reference to Edessa. If you could not mention its name (just as Josephus never mentions Edessa), you could always say 'it is a Greek city' called Antioch, in the sure knowledge that the educated of the era knew that the Greek capital was called Edessa, and the Syrian Edessa was called Antioch.

Ralph


[/quote]

Edessa was a part of the Seleucid Empire. When Seleucus I Nicator founded the city, he officially named it Edessa after the ancient capital of Macedonia. The Antioch in the Acts cannot have been Edessa, since Edessa, at this point, was an assyrian city and not a greek one.
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