OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 23, 2014, 12:01:07 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Oriental Orthodox pope  (Read 2213 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« on: July 18, 2007, 08:11:07 AM »

In regards to the position of Pope in the Oriental Orthodox church is this position similar to Roman Catholics or is the name of the position the only thing similar to the Catholics?
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2007, 08:15:44 AM »

In regards to the position of Pope in the Oriental Orthodox church is this position similar to Roman Catholics or is the name of the position the only thing similar to the Catholics?

As far as I'm aware the title is merely the same as with us - Pope of Alexandria being simply the traditional title of the Patriarch of Alexandria just as Pope of Rome is the traditional title for that Patriarch. There are no papal powers as far as I'm aware (and certainly not when it comes to the EO Pope of Alexandria).

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
falafel333
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 337


« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2007, 09:21:16 AM »

Firstly, the only Pope I'm aware of in the Oriental Orthodox Church is the Pope of Alexandria, who is the Pope of the Coptic church only.

In actual fact, perhaps in a heirarchical and authoritarian sense the Pope of Alexandria is much more similar to the Pope of Rome than he is to the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Although the Pope of Alexandria of course makes no universal claims to papacy, however, he is unlike the EP considered the highest level of authority in the Coptic Church and as such he presides over all ordinations of bishops and much of the church's power and authority is centralised through him.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2007, 09:25:15 AM »

Side note: The Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria also bears the title "Pope", prodomas.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2007, 10:00:30 AM »

The "Pope" title was used to refer to the Archbishop of Alexandria since the early third century. The earliest extant example of the usage of this title per se appears in the writings of Pope St Dionysius of Alexandria (A.D. 247-264), as preserved in Eusebius' Ecclesiatical History; the earliest extant example of its usage in reference to the Bishop of Rome dates to fifty years or so later than this. Over the first six and a half centuries of the Coptic Church, the terms "Pope" and "Patriarch" were virtually interchangeable honorific titles. 

Since time immemorial the Pope of Alexandria has had extraordinary power over his Church (which aroused much tension, particularly during the papacy of Popes Athanasius, Theophilus, Kyrillos, Dioscorus etc.) and this remains the case till this day. Nevertheless, I must strongly disagree with falafel's assertion that he is the highest authority in the Coptic Church. The Holy Synod in fact is; it has the power to veto any decision of the Pope, and even the power to depose him. Additionally, I don't think any analogy to the EP is warranted; the EP's unique authority is understood in terms of his position within the context of the entire EO Communion. On the contrary, the Coptic Pope of Alexandria does not possess any sort of universal authority or jurisdiction across the ecumene of the OO Communion.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 10:02:49 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2007, 10:03:07 AM »

EP?    Who mentioned the EP?

I do find the parallels in the Rome vs. Alexandria dynamic to be fascinating.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2007, 10:05:21 AM »

EP?    Who mentioned the EP?

Falafel.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2007, 10:19:12 AM »

Falafel.

Ok, I see. I agree with him, too, referring to the Coptic Pope's powers.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 10:24:04 AM by Αριστοκλής » Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
falafel333
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 337


« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2007, 10:52:37 AM »

Since time immemorial the Pope of Alexandria has had extraordinary power over his Church (which aroused much tension, particularly during the papacy of Popes Athanasius, Theophilus, Kyrillos, Dioscorus etc.) and this remains the case till this day. Nevertheless, I must strongly disagree with falafel's assertion that he is the highest authority in the Coptic Church. The Holy Synod in fact is; it has the power to veto any decision of the Pope, and even the power to depose him. Additionally, I don't think any analogy to the EP is warranted; the EP's unique authority is understood in terms of his position within the context of the entire EO Communion. On the contrary, the Coptic Pope of Alexandria does not possess any sort of universal authority or jurisdiction across the ecumene of the OO Communion.

EA, I was referring more to the EP's authority within the Greek Orthodox Church and I suppose similar analogies can be drawn over the authority of other patriarchs over bishops within their own national churches as such I suppose, although I have limited knowledge of the dynamics of such within other churches.

However, within the Coptic church, although you are technically correct in asserting that the Holy Synod is the highest authority within the church rarely is this the case in practice and most often it is the front for the pope's own authority. Whether this is some form of obedience on the part of other bishops and members of the holy synod I'm not sure.

This is why I have given the example of the EP since the differences between the EP and the Coptic Pope are two great examples of how authority can be practiced differently in the church, where the EP is simply first among equals and is given a certain level of honour but in no way does this translate into authority over other bishops.
Logged
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2007, 12:45:51 PM »

However, within the Coptic church, although you are technically correct in asserting that the Holy Synod is the highest authority within the church rarely is this the case in practice and most often it is the front for the pope's own authority. Whether this is some form of obedience on the part of other bishops and members of the holy synod I'm not sure.

I don't think you can reasonably say that the Holy Synod's authority is "rarely" upheld as highest "in practice" unless you can somehow demonstrate that the Holy Synod's will "rarely" overrides the Patriarch's. When has there been a conflict of will between the Patriarch and the majority of the Synod, only for the will of the former to prevail nevertheless?

The practice is very clear: whenever the Pope wishes to make an important decision, the Holy Synod convenes, and they vote; if they accept the Patriarch's decision, the decision is enacted, if they don't, then it is not. That is the practice, and hence it reflects the theory. If I am missing something in the point you are trying to convey then please make it more explicit.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 12:46:41 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
falafel333
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 337


« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2007, 01:55:46 PM »

I don't think you can reasonably say that the Holy Synod's authority is "rarely" upheld as highest "in practice" unless you can somehow demonstrate that the Holy Synod's will "rarely" overrides the Patriarch's. When has there been a conflict of will between the Patriarch and the majority of the Synod, only for the will of the former to prevail nevertheless?

The practice is very clear: whenever the Pope wishes to make an important decision, the Holy Synod convenes, and they vote; if they accept the Patriarch's decision, the decision is enacted, if they don't, then it is not. That is the practice, and hence it reflects the theory. If I am missing something in the point you are trying to convey then please make it more explicit.

EA, I'm not so much suggesting that the Holy Synod does not have power or that even that the Pope can or does override the power of the Holy Synod.

Perhaps if we rephrase the context of our discussion it'll make it somewhat clearer. What I'm really addressing here is, "How much power, authority and influence is invested in the Pope"?

If you look at the evidence not a single bishop or head of a monastery can be ordained or promoted without his explicit consent.

Now I can't say that I'm privvy to the internal dynamics of the holy synod but rarely if ever is the Pope's position challenged on any particular issues. I'm sure this has much to do with his position of authority and the complete obedience that is believed to be owed to him even by bishops. Here I'm not talking about heresy but about issues such as administration, opinions, etc where if the pope held strongly to a certain position I'm most certain that the other bishops would quickly fall in line.
Logged
Amdetsion
Worship God with all thy strength and all thy might
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Patriarchate; Addis Abebe Ethiopia
Posts: 931


HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2007, 01:59:38 PM »

EkhristosAnesti' point is shortened but is the simple way of looking at the issue and it is to my knowledge on par.

The Pope (Patriarch) of Alexandria is the seated soveriegn of the See of St Mark. This See places him in the charge of the bishporic (not Churches) of Africa. The Coptic Pope as such established the Bishporic in the Ethiopian and Eritrean churches and I beleive others and or working on others. Ethiopia and Eritrea has it own Patriarch and Holy synods which is from the Apostolic See of St Mark. However; Ethiopia has been a Christian nation since the 1st century as read in Acts Chapter 8-VS 26 to 31. The Ethiopian Church is thus much older than its autonimous bishporic.

"Pope" is a Coptic Egyptian word which came into latin use as "Pap", "Papa" and "Pope". The word has ancient Egyptian origins that goes back beyond the pharonic age. The word carried into English and latin meaning simply "father". The word "Paper" is also of ancient Egyptian origin which came into English and Latin use as "Paper" from the ancient Greco-Egyptian word "Papyrus" which comes from a more ancient strictly ancient Egyptian word I beleive is sort of like "Pawpee" or "Pah-pee". The point is that the word the ancient Egyptian used for what we call today 'paper' meant more to them than just a writting media; it was a word meaning or denoted ownership and creation as well as mystery and "all knowing"....esssentially as we would say "father" in the spirtual since today.

Thus "paper", "papa", "papyrus", Pater (latin for parent 'male'), papus, pope are all the same etymologically . The words etymologically are the language of the ancient Egyptians which came to the west via the ancient Greeks and the Romans.

The word Pope and its most proper meaning should be taken from the Coptic. It is not the arragance of the Coptic church that they use "Pope" as I have read and heard some people say "they try and make themsleves equal to Rome"; NOT so. If any body is trying to perpetrate it is the other way around.

Logged

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Didymus
Peace and grace.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: HG Coptic Bishop Anba Daniel of Sydney
Posts: 563


St. Thomas Didymus the Apostle of India


« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2007, 01:28:41 AM »

I have read before (albeit in an Anglican work) that the Popes of Alexandria used the title of 'Pope' before the Popes of Rome commenced the practice.

In the Coptic Church, the title of Pope is one of honour like all other titles for bishops.

As most here would know, in the early Church the bishop of Alexandria was considered second among equals (the bishop of Rome being first among equals).
Logged

...because I was not with you when the Lord came aforetime.
...because I am blind and yet I see.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2007, 07:51:30 AM »

I thought you guys recognized no rankings.

Now I am confused (or more confused).
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,127


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2007, 11:35:48 AM »

I thought you guys recognized no rankings.

Now I am confused (or more confused).

I think Didymus is only talking about history, not in the present situation.  It is true that in Nicea, Alexandria was considered second in honor.  That doesn't mean Alexandria today claims honor above the other OO patriarchs.

God bless.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Amdetsion
Worship God with all thy strength and all thy might
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Patriarchate; Addis Abebe Ethiopia
Posts: 931


HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 05:58:37 PM »

The idea or to think or say or imply 1st of equals, 2nd of equals etc. is a figment of our imagination coupled with wishful thinking. These 'positions' are not bibilicalyl grounded and do not have apostolic origin.

WE made it up; probably to placate humility and preserve a sense of arrogance and superiority at the same time.

The church is undefineable in such terms as 1st or 2nd and so on.

The Church of God is one and is headed by Christ.

How do you know where 1st position is or 2nd position is?

Do we determine ourselves or is there an actual position that can be found in Christs Holy Church?

The Church is the body of Christ. And His body is before the beginning and beyond the end.

That is why the word "church" is used o describe the faith.

"church" is to say 'circle' or round which is eternity.

This word (church) is very important to understand because it is filled with christeology. (NOT theology).

Examine names like Keril, Kerilos, Keriya, Kerka, Kerkos, Kereestos, Karl, Karlos, Circa, Circle, Curl, Charilos ('K' sound spelling of the saxons), Christ, Charles ('Ch' sound of the Germanics), Church. etc etc

If you research these words as well as words that mean 'round' in your own language you will begin to see the vast endlessness, unattainable, absolute meaning of the modern word 'Church'. And thus why the only real position is held by Christ.

WE are all servants of the Word incarnate on earth. The Church is out of our reach. It is a gift to mankind that he can have a life in the church.

Just think round.

How do you find the beginning (or end) of a circle?

If you can than you can find the primal position of the church.

I hope this is not too convoluted.
Logged

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2007, 06:57:05 PM »

The idea or to think or say or imply 1st of equals, 2nd of equals etc. is a figment of our imagination coupled with wishful thinking. These 'positions' are not bibilicalyl grounded and do not have apostolic origin.

Not everything in the Orthodox Church must be Biblically grounded. The Church produced the Bible, it was not produced by it.

The very fact that we have certain churches elevated to the rank of Patriarchates is a product of the same "wishful thinking" that ranked them.

Of course, this is not to contradict the fact that the fulness of the Church is found in every local right-believing church where the divine Eucharist is celebrated; but there has nevertheless been a sense of particular local churches being of greater importance than others.
Logged
Amdetsion
Worship God with all thy strength and all thy might
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Patriarchate; Addis Abebe Ethiopia
Posts: 931


HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2007, 04:18:18 PM »

Not everything in the Orthodox Church must be Biblically grounded.

I think I get your point ( although I am not sure).
But
In any case
I would be careful with this thinking.

God Bless
Logged

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,659


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2007, 05:13:03 PM »

The Church produced the Bible, it was not produced by it.
Actually, one could say that the Church produced the Bible just as much as the Bible produced the Church, for the Bible, more specifically the New Testament, is the written compendium of the Apostolic teachings on which the Church is grounded.  Without the teachings of the Apostles presented in the Bible, we have no Church.
Logged
Tags: Pope Coptic Orthodox Church 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.086 seconds with 46 queries.