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Author Topic: 'Dude, you have no Quran'  (Read 2036 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 23, 2010, 03:49:04 PM »

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At the end of a summer characterized by unprecedented levels of Islamophobia, Muslim Americans and their allies have found an expected reason to smile: Jake Isom, a skateboarder with a rat-tail from Amarillo, Texas.

Last Saturday, Sept. 18, Isom, 23, snatched a kerosene-soaked Koran from a grill in a city park before David Grisham, head of a local Christian group known as Repent Amarillo, could set it afire.

Isom's telling of the story to a local news station went viral, receiving close to 300,000 views on YouTube.

“I snuck-up behind him and took his Quran. He said something about burning a Quran, and I was like `Dude, you HAVE no Quran, and ran off,” Isom, recounts in the news clip in an accent best described as “slacker.”
....
Not everyone applauded Isom. At the conservative website FreeRepublic.com, commentators said Isom should be jailed for stealing Grisham's copy of the Quran. “Yet this MTV generation would stand by and let people burn American flags,” said one commenter.

For his part, Isom said he would do it again.

“This is America, and we're not supposed to be like that,” he said in an interview. “I don't care if it's a Quran or a Bible, I would stop anyone from doing either, because we don't stand for that kind of religious bigotry here, and I want to keep it that way.”
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 03:52:22 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2010, 04:00:11 PM »

That remix is awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HX5-ulcdXc&feature=player_embedded#!

“I snuck-up behind him and took his Quran. He said something about burning a Quran, and I was like `Dude, you HAVE no Quran, Dude, you HAVE no Quran.”
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 04:17:30 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2010, 04:30:06 PM »

I wouldn't support burning the Coran. Yet, I *do* feel it is strange that burning a symbol of a country (in this case a flag) is considered acceptable freedom of speech and burning the symbol of a religion is not.

It does show, IMO, that it is not virtue that moves these people, but simply Stockholm Syndrom. I wonder if he would be so bold as to steal the American flag from a group of Muslims burning it and if they would simply stare and shout at him for that.

I think that burning religious or civic symbols should be considered to be some kind of infraction because it *can* lead to violence - as it does when Islam burns American flags, since people transfer all the emotional weight of the symbolic act to reality (see the Fathers explanations on how sin develops into acts to understand that better). The person should be fined for it, but also you can't make too much of it in legislation terms if you are to preserve freedom of speech for other things.

Sometime ago here in Brazil, a RC country, the pastor of a neopentecostal megachurch thought it would be a bold statement to kick a statue of the Virgin Mary live on national TV and actually did it. The outcry was huge even from non-RCs and I think, very justified. Eventually he was transferred somewhere in Africa. Considering the profile of said church, a fine on the act could have prevented the offense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kicking_of_the_saint   http://is.gd/fpu99
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 04:32:48 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2010, 05:18:52 PM »

Burning flags and Qurans is free speech.

If you want to grab a flag and quran from someone's fire though, it seems like a good idea.

After all, how can you point to all the problems in the Quran if you don't have a copy?

Salaam Sabeel.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 05:19:40 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2010, 07:05:25 PM »

I was given a copy, or I should say a copy was shoved at me, a few years ago at our local State Fair (which sadly was not held this year for economic reason...it was the nation's oldest state fair...)

Anyway, one of the booths was an Islamic organization, right next to fudge shop and across the aisle from the leather wallets, belts, and the spice seller.  I was pushing my mom in a wheelchair and was surprised when a couple of men, just jumped out at me and other people, and shoved a book at us.  Before I realized what was what, my hand shot out and I took whatever I was being given.  It was not unusual for folks to hand out pamphlets at the State Fair - new vinyl siding offers, life insurance, water seal your basement, info about the elm leaf borer which was attacking Michigan's trees, etc.  When I realized what it was, it was too late....I was already holding it.  It was so unexpected and I was completely caught off guard....

Needless to say, I personally think the whole Islamic faith is evil, as well as their much admired book.  I refused to bring it under my roof....so, it found a nice resting place on the fair grounds.

I know that I should have given it back and actually stopped to discuss faith with him, but, it was so unexpected, and I was completely unprepared.  I think today I might have handled the situation differently....

I am always amazed when people jump to defend Islam and the Quran....and yet defend very little else.  Why is that?

If we fight for freedom of religion and freedom of expression, etc...and thereby protect the rights of muslims and their book....why is it that people frown on others who dare wish a "Merry Christmas" to the store clerk or the teacher at school, no religious symbols at work, etc.  Everyone is all for separation of church and state when the church is the Christian church....no crosses in the schools, no mention of anything religious, no Christmas parties-they are called winter parties, or Christmas vacations - it's now mid-winter break, etc....however, the muslim kids can leave for prayers on Fridays, and have their holidays off...and they have them off in order to celebrate Eid, etc.  They call it Eid, not mid-summer day off, or winter day off.

In Boston, there was a school that took their kids on a field trip to a Mosque to learn about the architecture.  They were told it was only to see the beautiful building style (although I would say that Orthodox churches are way more beautiful and worthy of study).  The kids were taught how great Islam is, how they believe in God (we aren't allowed to even mention Christ in school or at school events), and how Islam treats women way better than American society.  Inside the boys were separated from the women and girls.  One mother chaperon was shocked to look over and see the boys standing with the men for prayer, mimicking their hand gestures, and prostrating on the ground.  She has it on tape.  How did the teachers let this happen?  How is that allowed?

Anybody read about it in the news?  No?  I thought not.

However, in a few months we will hear about all the people who are offended, and who's sensibilities were hurt during the "holiday season" because someone dared to utter the word "Christmas".

« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 07:05:37 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2010, 08:43:43 PM »

I was given a copy, or I should say a copy was shoved at me, a few years ago at our local State Fair (which sadly was not held this year for economic reason...it was the nation's oldest state fair...)

Anyway, one of the booths was an Islamic organization, right next to fudge shop and across the aisle from the leather wallets, belts, and the spice seller.  I was pushing my mom in a wheelchair and was surprised when a couple of men, just jumped out at me and other people, and shoved a book at us.  Before I realized what was what, my hand shot out and I took whatever I was being given.  It was not unusual for folks to hand out pamphlets at the State Fair - new vinyl siding offers, life insurance, water seal your basement, info about the elm leaf borer which was attacking Michigan's trees, etc.  When I realized what it was, it was too late....I was already holding it.  It was so unexpected and I was completely caught off guard....

Needless to say, I personally think the whole Islamic faith is evil, as well as their much admired book.  I refused to bring it under my roof....so, it found a nice resting place on the fair grounds.

I know that I should have given it back and actually stopped to discuss faith with him, but, it was so unexpected, and I was completely unprepared.  I think today I might have handled the situation differently....

I am always amazed when people jump to defend Islam and the Quran....and yet defend very little else.  Why is that?

If we fight for freedom of religion and freedom of expression, etc...and thereby protect the rights of muslims and their book....why is it that people frown on others who dare wish a "Merry Christmas" to the store clerk or the teacher at school, no religious symbols at work, etc.  Everyone is all for separation of church and state when the church is the Christian church....no crosses in the schools, no mention of anything religious, no Christmas parties-they are called winter parties, or Christmas vacations - it's now mid-winter break, etc....however, the muslim kids can leave for prayers on Fridays, and have their holidays off...and they have them off in order to celebrate Eid, etc.  They call it Eid, not mid-summer day off, or winter day off.

In Boston, there was a school that took their kids on a field trip to a Mosque to learn about the architecture.  They were told it was only to see the beautiful building style (although I would say that Orthodox churches are way more beautiful and worthy of study).  The kids were taught how great Islam is, how they believe in God (we aren't allowed to even mention Christ in school or at school events), and how Islam treats women way better than American society.  Inside the boys were separated from the women and girls.  One mother chaperon was shocked to look over and see the boys standing with the men for prayer, mimicking their hand gestures, and prostrating on the ground.  She has it on tape.  How did the teachers let this happen?  How is that allowed?

Anybody read about it in the news?  No?  I thought not.

I did, but then I watch Fox. Your new governor is on a lot, btw.

Btw, HG Archb. Nicolae had a nice take on the "pastor" burning the Quran in Florida.
Quote
This past Sunday our Gospel passage was taken from the 22nd chapter of St. Matthew’s Gospel. In that passage Jesus is asked about the Commandments and what the greatest commandment of the law was. Jesus answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the Prophets.” This is the basis of our Christian faith.
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2010/09/can-a-christian-encourage-violence-and-hatred/
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2010, 09:44:11 PM »

“Yet this MTV generation would stand by and let people burn American flags,” said one commenter.

Oh, the horror!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2010, 12:04:01 AM »

Burning a flag, holy book, etc. is freedom of speech. The people who are offended by these things need to not only be offended more often, but to have this shoved down their throat, they should be mocked and humiliated every time they show their face in public. If someone is offended by another's freedom of expression they should be stripped of their dignity and should be shown to the world as the sub-human swine they are.
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2010, 12:06:42 AM »

If someone is offended by another's freedom of expression they should be stripped of their dignity and should be shown to the world as the sub-human swine they are.

Always a pleasure, Greeky!
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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2010, 12:09:12 AM »

If someone is offended by another's freedom of expression they should be stripped of their dignity and should be shown to the world as the sub-human swine they are.

Always a pleasure, Greeky!

Any time! Wink
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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2010, 07:06:53 AM »

<Strike Music>

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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2010, 07:56:46 AM »

"The 'open-minded' mob lynched the 'narrow-minded' man because he said he didn't believe in 'free speech.'"


Selam
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2010, 10:46:51 AM »

"The 'open-minded' mob lynched the 'narrow-minded' man because he said he didn't believe in 'free speech.'"


Selam

No one said anything about lynching, we just need to use our freedom of expression to publicly degrade and humiliate the enemies of liberty. Now, if they do more than merely protest the freedom of expression and use force to advance their ends (say, by stealing someone's Koran before they can burn it), then a good old fashioned lynching might be in order.
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2010, 04:00:27 PM »

"The 'open-minded' mob lynched the 'narrow-minded' man because he said he didn't believe in 'free speech.'"


Selam

It's really not all that uncommon.  Undecided
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2010, 05:35:01 PM »

"The 'open-minded' mob lynched the 'narrow-minded' man because he said he didn't believe in 'free speech.'"


Selam

 I am not following what you are saying.  Are you saying the theft of another's property in order to silence the other is a valid exercise of one's free speech and GiC is somehow endorsing the deprivation of this right, or are you saying the person who stole the Koran was depriving the other individual of his free speech?
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2010, 10:06:48 PM »

Honestly, if I had the choice of throwing a Koran in the fire or some brainless cretin who starts his sentences with "Dude", the Koran would survive.
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2010, 10:23:30 PM »

Honestly, if I had the choice of throwing a Koran in the fire or some brainless cretin who starts his sentences with "Dude", the Koran would survive.

Maybe we could compromise, we could burn him while he holds the Koran? Wink
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2010, 09:43:07 PM »

"The 'open-minded' mob lynched the 'narrow-minded' man because he said he didn't believe in 'free speech.'"


Selam

 I am not following what you are saying.  Are you saying the theft of another's property in order to silence the other is a valid exercise of one's free speech and GiC is somehow endorsing the deprivation of this right, or are you saying the person who stole the Koran was depriving the other individual of his free speech?


I'm just making a general comment. I'm personally against theft and burning Qur'ans. I just notice how those who talk the loudest about free speech are often the quickest to try and silence those who disagree with them. And I think this is equally applicable to those on both the right and the left.

Personally, I'm not an advocate of unbridled free speech. In fact, we don't actually have such a thing in America. Isn't it illegal to shout "fire" in a movie theater when there is no fire? Certain speech should not be allowed in public. Racist, profane, pornographic, and blasphemous language should not be allowed in public. That's just my opinion. Free speech is highly over-rated; one of those erroneous ideals of the Enlightenment- you know, that "enlightened" movement that produced the guillotine.


Selam
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2010, 10:02:10 PM »

"The 'open-minded' mob lynched the 'narrow-minded' man because he said he didn't believe in 'free speech.'"


Selam

 I am not following what you are saying.  Are you saying the theft of another's property in order to silence the other is a valid exercise of one's free speech and GiC is somehow endorsing the deprivation of this right, or are you saying the person who stole the Koran was depriving the other individual of his free speech?


I'm just making a general comment. I'm personally against theft and burning Qur'ans. I just notice how those who talk the loudest about free speech are often the quickest to try and silence those who disagree with them. And I think this is equally applicable to those on both the right and the left.

Personally, I'm not an advocate of unbridled free speech. In fact, we don't actually have such a thing in America. Isn't it illegal to shout "fire" in a movie theater when there is no fire? Certain speech should not be allowed in public. Racist, profane, pornographic, and blasphemous language should not be allowed in public. That's just my opinion. Free speech is highly over-rated; one of those erroneous ideals of the Enlightenment- you know, that "enlightened" movement that produced the guillotine.


Selam

Are you aware of the case in which the much over esteemed Oliver Wendell Holmes used the analogy of crying 'fire' in a crowded theater? It was in one of the most tragic decisions in the history of the court, where the freedom of expression of some Yiddish speaking pacifists was oppressed in order to make way for the propaganda of the US government during our imperialistic endeavour in Europe at the end of the first world war.

Interesting how someone who claims to be a pacifist would trumpet this disgraceful case to support his causes.

If you fail to defend the freedom of expression of those you disagree with, you shouldn't count on it to uphold your right to express your ideals. You talk about anti-blasphemy laws; well, I would consider any religious speech to be blasphemy against truth; if we're going to restrict blasphemous speech, I would start with the Divine Liturgy. Or do you believe that you, and you alone, should be able to define 'blasphemy'...like that's ever going to happen, LOL.
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2010, 10:33:09 PM »

"The 'open-minded' mob lynched the 'narrow-minded' man because he said he didn't believe in 'free speech.'"


Selam

 I am not following what you are saying.  Are you saying the theft of another's property in order to silence the other is a valid exercise of one's free speech and GiC is somehow endorsing the deprivation of this right, or are you saying the person who stole the Koran was depriving the other individual of his free speech?


I'm just making a general comment. I'm personally against theft and burning Qur'ans. I just notice how those who talk the loudest about free speech are often the quickest to try and silence those who disagree with them. And I think this is equally applicable to those on both the right and the left.

Personally, I'm not an advocate of unbridled free speech. In fact, we don't actually have such a thing in America. Isn't it illegal to shout "fire" in a movie theater when there is no fire? Certain speech should not be allowed in public. Racist, profane, pornographic, and blasphemous language should not be allowed in public. That's just my opinion. Free speech is highly over-rated; one of those erroneous ideals of the Enlightenment- you know, that "enlightened" movement that produced the guillotine.


Selam

Are you aware of the case in which the much over esteemed Oliver Wendell Holmes used the analogy of crying 'fire' in a crowded theater? It was in one of the most tragic decisions in the history of the court, where the freedom of expression of some Yiddish speaking pacifists was oppressed in order to make way for the propaganda of the US government during our imperialistic endeavour in Europe at the end of the first world war.

Interesting how someone who claims to be a pacifist would trumpet this disgraceful case to support his causes.

If you fail to defend the freedom of expression of those you disagree with, you shouldn't count on it to uphold your right to express your ideals. You talk about anti-blasphemy laws; well, I would consider any religious speech to be blasphemy against truth; if we're going to restrict blasphemous speech, I would start with the Divine Liturgy. Or do you believe that you, and you alone, should be able to define 'blasphemy'...like that's ever going to happen, LOL.


Gic, your rhetoric about "freedom and truth" is absurd. You are an atheist, and thereby have no objective grounds upon which to even define "freedom" and "truth." You are merely a deterministic slave to biological fate, so you are fighting windmills when you spout off about fictitious ideals like "freedom" and "truth." Your worldview dictates that it matters not whether you live a hundred years or a mere second. You are worth no more than a speck of dust. So why should I listen to the nihilistic sounds of "dust in the wind?"


Of course, I know you are much more than what you think you are. Wink



Selam
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« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2010, 12:01:01 AM »

Honestly, if I had the choice of throwing a Koran in the fire or some brainless cretin who starts his sentences with "Dude", the Koran would survive.

Maybe we could compromise, we could burn him while he holds the Koran? Wink

I like how you think!
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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2010, 12:14:59 AM »

"The 'open-minded' mob lynched the 'narrow-minded' man because he said he didn't believe in 'free speech.'"


Selam

 I am not following what you are saying.  Are you saying the theft of another's property in order to silence the other is a valid exercise of one's free speech and GiC is somehow endorsing the deprivation of this right, or are you saying the person who stole the Koran was depriving the other individual of his free speech?


I'm just making a general comment. I'm personally against theft and burning Qur'ans. I just notice how those who talk the loudest about free speech are often the quickest to try and silence those who disagree with them. And I think this is equally applicable to those on both the right and the left.

Personally, I'm not an advocate of unbridled free speech. In fact, we don't actually have such a thing in America. Isn't it illegal to shout "fire" in a movie theater when there is no fire? Certain speech should not be allowed in public. Racist, profane, pornographic, and blasphemous language should not be allowed in public. That's just my opinion. Free speech is highly over-rated; one of those erroneous ideals of the Enlightenment- you know, that "enlightened" movement that produced the guillotine.


Selam

Gebre, I agree with you about the concept of freedom of speech.
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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2010, 12:19:19 AM »

If you fail to defend the freedom of expression of those you disagree with, you shouldn't count on it to uphold your right to express your ideals. You talk about anti-blasphemy laws; well, I would consider any religious speech to be blasphemy against truth; if we're going to restrict blasphemous speech, I would start with the Divine Liturgy. Or do you believe that you, and you alone, should be able to define 'blasphemy'...like that's ever going to happen, LOL.

Well said!

To quote Stephen Fry:  "I am a lover of truth, a worshipper of freedom, a celebrant at the altar of language and purity and tolerance. That is my religion, and every day I am sorely, grossly, heinously and deeply offended, wounded, mortified and injured by a thousand different blasphemies against it. When the fundamental canons of truth, honesty, compassion and decency are hourly assaulted by fatuous bishops, pompous, illiberal and ignorant priests, politicians and prelates, sanctimonious censors, self-appointed moralists and busy-bodies, what recourse of ancient laws have I? None whatever. Nor would I ask for any. For unlike these blistering imbeciles my belief in my religion is strong and I know that lies will always fail and indecency and intolerance will always perish."
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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2010, 12:24:19 AM »

"The 'open-minded' mob lynched the 'narrow-minded' man because he said he didn't believe in 'free speech.'"


Selam

 I am not following what you are saying.  Are you saying the theft of another's property in order to silence the other is a valid exercise of one's free speech and GiC is somehow endorsing the deprivation of this right, or are you saying the person who stole the Koran was depriving the other individual of his free speech?


I'm just making a general comment. I'm personally against theft and burning Qur'ans. I just notice how those who talk the loudest about free speech are often the quickest to try and silence those who disagree with them. And I think this is equally applicable to those on both the right and the left.

Personally, I'm not an advocate of unbridled free speech. In fact, we don't actually have such a thing in America. Isn't it illegal to shout "fire" in a movie theater when there is no fire? Certain speech should not be allowed in public. Racist, profane, pornographic, and blasphemous language should not be allowed in public. That's just my opinion. Free speech is highly over-rated; one of those erroneous ideals of the Enlightenment- you know, that "enlightened" movement that produced the guillotine.


Selam

Are you aware of the case in which the much over esteemed Oliver Wendell Holmes used the analogy of crying 'fire' in a crowded theater? It was in one of the most tragic decisions in the history of the court, where the freedom of expression of some Yiddish speaking pacifists was oppressed in order to make way for the propaganda of the US government during our imperialistic endeavour in Europe at the end of the first world war.

Interesting how someone who claims to be a pacifist would trumpet this disgraceful case to support his causes.

If you fail to defend the freedom of expression of those you disagree with, you shouldn't count on it to uphold your right to express your ideals. You talk about anti-blasphemy laws; well, I would consider any religious speech to be blasphemy against truth; if we're going to restrict blasphemous speech, I would start with the Divine Liturgy. Or do you believe that you, and you alone, should be able to define 'blasphemy'...like that's ever going to happen, LOL.

Gic, your rhetoric about "freedom and truth" is absurd. You are an atheist, and thereby have no objective grounds upon which to even define "freedom" and "truth." You are merely a deterministic slave to biological fate, so you are fighting windmills when you spout off about fictitious ideals like "freedom" and "truth." Your worldview dictates that it matters not whether you live a hundred years or a mere second. You are worth no more than a speck of dust. So why should I listen to the nihilistic sounds of "dust in the wind?"


Of course, I know you are much more than what you think you are. Wink



Selam

Yes, the human being is nothing more than a recursive matrix system with various input and output nodes that allow a very rough network to be made out of a collective group of these RMS's, but would it not be rational to optimize the inputs? Would this not make the resultant machines more efficient for the benefit of the collective system?

You see, one doesn't need silly and nonsensical systems of metaphysics to solve simple optimization problems.
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2010, 12:31:48 AM »

If you fail to defend the freedom of expression of those you disagree with, you shouldn't count on it to uphold your right to express your ideals. You talk about anti-blasphemy laws; well, I would consider any religious speech to be blasphemy against truth; if we're going to restrict blasphemous speech, I would start with the Divine Liturgy. Or do you believe that you, and you alone, should be able to define 'blasphemy'...like that's ever going to happen, LOL.

Well said!

To quote Stephen Fry:  "I am a lover of truth, a worshipper of freedom, a celebrant at the altar of language and purity and tolerance. That is my religion, and every day I am sorely, grossly, heinously and deeply offended, wounded, mortified and injured by a thousand different blasphemies against it. When the fundamental canons of truth, honesty, compassion and decency are hourly assaulted by fatuous bishops, pompous, illiberal and ignorant priests, politicians and prelates, sanctimonious censors, self-appointed moralists and busy-bodies, what recourse of ancient laws have I? None whatever. Nor would I ask for any. For unlike these blistering imbeciles my belief in my religion is strong and I know that lies will always fail and indecency and intolerance will always perish."

If a belief needs the support of the state to survive, it's probably not the kind of belief that rational people should be taking seriously.
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2010, 12:47:37 AM »

If a belief needs the support of the state to survive, it's probably not the kind of belief that rational people should be taking seriously.

I don't think our religion needs the support of the state to survive. I just think it would be better off (in a pragmatic sense) with the support of the state and even the state would be better off supporting it.
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2010, 12:48:20 AM »

You see, one doesn't need silly and nonsensical systems of metaphysics to solve simple optimization problems.

You do need metaphysical systems to explain why optimization is even important in the first place.
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2010, 01:13:13 AM »

If a belief needs the support of the state to survive, it's probably not the kind of belief that rational people should be taking seriously.

I don't think our religion needs the support of the state to survive. I just think it would be better off (in a pragmatic sense) with the support of the state and even the state would be better off supporting it.

Exactly. Christian Faith cannot be eradicated by material means; it will endure forever. The atheists can burn Church buildings, exterminate Christians, and outlaw Christianity, but against The Church the gates of hell shall never prevail.



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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2010, 01:21:46 AM »

You see, one doesn't need silly and nonsensical systems of metaphysics to solve simple optimization problems.

You do need metaphysical systems to explain why optimization is even important in the first place.


Right again deusveritasest!

Gic says, "...to solve simple optimization problems." Why? What problems? The problems of life and death? The problems of human existence? Like I said earlier, according to Gic's atheistic worldview, it really doesn't matter if we live for a second or for a hundred years. Everything is just a random cosmic accident, and thus there are no "problems" to be solved. These ostensible "problems" are merely existential illusions, so why waste time trying to "solve" them. Talk about religious superstition! Roll Eyes


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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2010, 01:30:22 AM »

You have a very weak imagination, Gebre.
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« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2010, 01:38:35 AM »

You have a very weak imagination, Gebre.


I confess, I'm no John Lennon.  Wink



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« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2010, 02:08:02 AM »

You have a very weak imagination, Gebre.

What do you mean by that?  Huh
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« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2010, 02:08:54 AM »

You have a very weak imagination, Gebre.

I confess, I'm no John Lennon.  Wink

Sadly, that would have went right over my head, were it not for modern atheists using the song in videos about religion. My Father would be ashamed of me.
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« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2010, 02:27:15 AM »

You have a very weak imagination, Gebre.

What do you mean by that?  Huh

I guess I just see the arguments linking atheism, agnosticism, or general unbelief, with nihilism, or meaninglessness, or random chaos, to be something along the lines of an argument from incredulity, or essentially an argument from lack of imagination.
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2010, 12:07:40 PM »

You see, one doesn't need silly and nonsensical systems of metaphysics to solve simple optimization problems.

You do need metaphysical systems to explain why optimization is even important in the first place.


Right again deusveritasest!

Gic says, "...to solve simple optimization problems." Why? What problems? The problems of life and death? The problems of human existence? Like I said earlier, according to Gic's atheistic worldview, it really doesn't matter if we live for a second or for a hundred years. Everything is just a random cosmic accident, and thus there are no "problems" to be solved. These ostensible "problems" are merely existential illusions, so why waste time trying to "solve" them. Talk about religious superstition! Roll Eyes


Selam

The universe exists through random interactions of spacial manifolds, we exist through evolutionary natural selection, there is no reason to exist, there is no 'why'; but life doesn't need reason or purpose to be interesting. So while nothing 'matters', we have been programmed by evolution to want to know and understand the world around us; at one point, this programming was an essential survival mechanism.

We're both programmed the same way by the same forces, the difference is you make up superstitions about invisible people living in the sky to explain the world and I trust observation and probabilistic analysis. But we all invent meaning for our life, some meanings are very primal and animalistic such as defining a person by their family and how they care for their family, it's natural that some people assume this for it is a biological imperative to spread our genetic material. Some people who are slightly more rational will define the value of life in terms of pleasure, the hedonists. There is certainly value to this view, the future really won't affect you so it seems rational to enjoy the present. Then others yield to the evolutionary tendency towards altruism found only in the more highly evolved species such as the apes. These people value a life based on what that life contributes to society, this view of the meaning of life fits nicely into sociological and economic theory and has objectively contributed the most to human society, taking us from nomadic cave dwellers to explorers of outer space.

The complexity of the Recursive Matrix that is our brain allows us to embrace one or a combination of these invented meanings of our existence or we can reject all of them, though that is much rarer; Nietzsche tried to, but succeeded only marginally. Definitions of the meaning of life derived from superstitious systems add nothing to this analysis. Most religious systems are hedonistic in nature, seeking not immediate pleasure but pleasure in some fictitious after life. In fact, I would argue that pure hedonism is generally only found in religion where even apparent altruism is dependent on the individual eventually getting rewarded for their actions. But all these instincts come from evolutionary programming, the role of pure reason has been vastly exaggerated.
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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2010, 04:42:21 PM »

aaaaaaahh!   Angry

I swear!  the religous intolerance in this country just ASTOUNDS me!

I have had disgussions about this sort of thing with my teachers, and they agree that the Muslims have just as much a right as anyone to practice their religion!

Honestly, if we have freedom of religion in the "good ol' USA", shouldn't there be some punishment, at least a fine, for desecrating the sacred writings of a faith?!
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« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2010, 05:24:44 PM »

aaaaaaahh!   Angry

I swear!  the religous intolerance in this country just ASTOUNDS me!

I have had disgussions about this sort of thing with my teachers, and they agree that the Muslims have just as much a right as anyone to practice their religion!

Honestly, if we have freedom of religion in the "good ol' USA", shouldn't there be some punishment, at least a fine, for desecrating the sacred writings of a faith?!

Absolutely not.  That is the paradox of freedom.  They chant their Satanic verses and I burn them.  We are both expressing our views freely.  Now if one of us steals these books from the other, or assaults the other, or destroys the other's property, THEN (and only then) should there be a punishment in a free state.
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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2010, 05:42:26 PM »

I belong to the "Church of News", and therefore view all newspapers to be sacred aspects of my faith.  To start a fire with any newspaper deeply offends me and should be punishable by excessive fines and possible jail time.  We aren't so crazy about recycling it either!
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« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2010, 05:43:39 PM »

I surprised that the people burning the Koran weren't playing/singing this song;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68OQbLlaXvI&feature=related

(which has nothing to do with racism, it is about Camus' "The Stranger" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_an_Arab )
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« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2010, 05:54:15 PM »

Honestly, if we have freedom of religion in the "good ol' USA", shouldn't there be some punishment, at least a fine, for desecrating the sacred writings of a faith?!

Sounds like a rather contorted understanding of traditional American style freedom.
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« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2010, 10:41:59 PM »

aaaaaaahh!   Angry

I swear!  the religous intolerance in this country just ASTOUNDS me!

I have had disgussions about this sort of thing with my teachers, and they agree that the Muslims have just as much a right as anyone to practice their religion!

No one here has said otherwise. I may hate them, their religion, their culture, and everything they stand for. I may use my freedom of expression to condemn and dismiss them; but I will still defend their right as American Citizens to believe and worship as they see fit and will insist that their right to follow the dictates of their conscience is just as important to me as my personal right to do the same.

Quote
Honestly, if we have freedom of religion in the "good ol' USA", shouldn't there be some punishment, at least a fine, for desecrating the sacred writings of a faith?!

I honestly think this is the first time I've ever seem someone confuse freedom of religion and state-established and imposed religion. Is this some kind of a joke?
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« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2010, 08:18:54 AM »

aaaaaaahh!   Angry

I swear!  the religous intolerance in this country just ASTOUNDS me!

I have had disgussions about this sort of thing with my teachers, and they agree that the Muslims have just as much a right as anyone to practice their religion!

No one here has said otherwise. I may hate them, their religion, their culture, and everything they stand for. I may use my freedom of expression to condemn and dismiss them; but I will still defend their right as American Citizens to believe and worship as they see fit and will insist that their right to follow the dictates of their conscience is just as important to me as my personal right to do the same.

Quote
Honestly, if we have freedom of religion in the "good ol' USA", shouldn't there be some punishment, at least a fine, for desecrating the sacred writings of a faith?!

I honestly think this is the first time I've ever seem someone confuse freedom of religion and state-established and imposed religion. Is this some kind of a joke?
please forgive my ignorance, I'm just a teenager! Wink  I don't know much about Islam, but I just have strong feelings against burning a faith's sacred books and what have you.  Sorry, I should have been more informed before I posted!
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