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Author Topic: Autocephaly or Autonomy in the Roman communion?  (Read 3229 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2011, 05:29:59 PM »

Oh? Do you have a citation of said Orthodox refering to your supreme pontiff as such and as such receiving him?

I could most likely find some citations on-line of Internet Orthodox moaning and beefing about the fact that Pope Benedict XVI has been honored in ways that are most unsatisfactory to people who think as you demonstrate that you think here.
IOW, no, you cannot cite Orthodox receiving your supreme pontiff as our supreme pontiff.

Never said that.  Never suggested it.  Would not expect it.
So you admit your expectations are ill founded.

Not in the least.  When all dialogue is stopped or when Orthodoxy tells Rome no more interaction at all...then you can crow.  Till then I remain ever hopeful. 
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« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2011, 05:38:04 PM »

Oh? Do you have a citation of said Orthodox refering to your supreme pontiff as such and as such receiving him?

I could most likely find some citations on-line of Internet Orthodox moaning and beefing about the fact that Pope Benedict XVI has been honored in ways that are most unsatisfactory to people who think as you demonstrate that you think here.
IOW, no, you cannot cite Orthodox receiving your supreme pontiff as our supreme pontiff.

Never said that.  Never suggested it.  Would not expect it.
So you admit your expectations are ill founded.

Not in the least.  When all dialogue is stopped or when Orthodoxy tells Rome no more interaction at all...then you can crow.  Till then I remain ever hopeful. 
What are we to conclude from your interaction with the Archbishop of Canterbury, that Apostolicae Curae is "absolutely null and utterly void"?
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« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2011, 06:18:02 PM »

Oh? Do you have a citation of said Orthodox refering to your supreme pontiff as such and as such receiving him?

I could most likely find some citations on-line of Internet Orthodox moaning and beefing about the fact that Pope Benedict XVI has been honored in ways that are most unsatisfactory to people who think as you demonstrate that you think here.
IOW, no, you cannot cite Orthodox receiving your supreme pontiff as our supreme pontiff.

Never said that.  Never suggested it.  Would not expect it.
So you admit your expectations are ill founded.

Not in the least.  When all dialogue is stopped or when Orthodoxy tells Rome no more interaction at all...then you can crow.  Till then I remain ever hopeful. 

Dear Mary,

After the decision of the bishops of the Church of Greece, immediately prior to the Cyprus Meeting in 2009, that no statements from the dialogue may be promulgated without proper examination and approval by the Synod of bishops, the dialogue has been greatly weakened.  The bishops' position was decided by the Ravenna Document of 2007 and what was called the Cretan Statement which was to be studied and approved at Cyprus 2009.  The bishops came to realise that the dialogue had begun to act beyond its powers and was formulating theology, and especially ecclesiology, unacceptable to the bishops.

The Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church has had its hands tied ever since, at Cyprus 2009 and Vienna 2010.

It is, by the way, inappropriate to deride " people who think as you demonstrate that you think here" since this cautious approach is that of our bishops and not of a loony minority.  You harm the dialogue by slighting our bishops.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2011, 06:26:26 PM »

Oh? Do you have a citation of said Orthodox refering to your supreme pontiff as such and as such receiving him?

I could most likely find some citations on-line of Internet Orthodox moaning and beefing about the fact that Pope Benedict XVI has been honored in ways that are most unsatisfactory to people who think as you demonstrate that you think here.
IOW, no, you cannot cite Orthodox receiving your supreme pontiff as our supreme pontiff.

Never said that.  Never suggested it.  Would not expect it.
So you admit your expectations are ill founded.

Not in the least.  When all dialogue is stopped or when Orthodoxy tells Rome no more interaction at all...then you can crow.  Till then I remain ever hopeful. 

Dear Mary,

After the decision of the bishops of the Church of Greece, immediately prior to the Cyprus Meeting in 2009, that no statements from the dialogue may be promulgated without proper examination and approval by the Synod of bishops, the dialogue has been greatly weakened.  The bishops' position was decided by the Ravenna Document of 2007 and what was called the Cretan Statement which was to be studied and approved at Cyprus 2009.  The bishops came to realise that the dialogue had begun to act beyond its powers and was formulating theology, and especially ecclesiology, unacceptable to the bishops.

The Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church has had its hands tied ever since, at Cyprus 2009 and Vienna 2010.

It is, by the way, inappropriate to deride " people who think as you demonstrate that you think here" since this cautious approach is that of our bishops and not of a loony minority.  You harm the dialogue by slighting our bishops.

Caution from a bishop leaves me hopeful.

The loony minority's constant negative is well worth ignoring.
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« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2011, 06:38:22 PM »

Oh? Do you have a citation of said Orthodox refering to your supreme pontiff as such and as such receiving him?

I could most likely find some citations on-line of Internet Orthodox moaning and beefing about the fact that Pope Benedict XVI has been honored in ways that are most unsatisfactory to people who think as you demonstrate that you think here.
IOW, no, you cannot cite Orthodox receiving your supreme pontiff as our supreme pontiff.

Never said that.  Never suggested it.  Would not expect it.
So you admit your expectations are ill founded.

Not in the least.  When all dialogue is stopped or when Orthodoxy tells Rome no more interaction at all...then you can crow.  Till then I remain ever hopeful. 

Dear Mary,

After the decision of the bishops of the Church of Greece, immediately prior to the Cyprus Meeting in 2009, that no statements from the dialogue may be promulgated without proper examination and approval by the Synod of bishops, the dialogue has been greatly weakened.  The bishops' position was decided by the Ravenna Document of 2007 and what was called the Cretan Statement which was to be studied and approved at Cyprus 2009.  The bishops came to realise that the dialogue had begun to act beyond its powers and was formulating theology, and especially ecclesiology, unacceptable to the bishops.

The Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church has had its hands tied ever since, at Cyprus 2009 and Vienna 2010.

It is, by the way, inappropriate to deride " people who think as you demonstrate that you think here" since this cautious approach is that of our bishops and not of a loony minority.  You harm the dialogue by slighting our bishops.

Caution from a bishop leaves me hopeful.

The loony minority's constant negative is well worth ignoring.

The loony minority are those who want the Pope to maintain his position of power and authority against the Orthodox position that he must assume a position of equality.  I believe that these people form a sizeable portion of your Church?
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« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2011, 06:44:29 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQmFMXkhXPY

Um... should we all be throwing around this word?  Huh

I was hoping that at least one of the recent debate threads wouldn't turn into a train wreck... please...  Cry
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2011, 06:58:11 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQmFMXkhXPY

Um... should we all be throwing around this word?  Huh

I was hoping that at least one of the recent debate threads wouldn't turn into a train wreck... please...  Cry

We can keep talking.  I don't need Father A's or Isa's approval to keep talking.

Frankly I don't think the west knows quite what to do with the Catholic Patriarchs of the eastern rites and rituals.  I think that is part of what the discussion is going to need to include. 

I have seen over time that the less eastern Catholic hiearachs behave like leaders the more the Roman rite bishops and Cardinals try to walk all over them.  The more an eastern Catholic hierarch behaves like a Patriarch or a Metropolitan or an Archbishop, the bigger the dust storm but the eastern jurisdictions gain ground each time.

So that internal struggle is as necessary to Catholics being prepared to accept the resumption of communion with Sister Churches...just as the struggle over the diptychs is necessary for Orthodoxy.

To just stand and point and cry "Shame" at one another isn't helpful at all.  Isn't useful at all. 

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« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2011, 07:11:03 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQmFMXkhXPY

Um... should we all be throwing around this word?  Huh

I was hoping that at least one of the recent debate threads wouldn't turn into a train wreck... please...  Cry

We can keep talking.  I don't need Father A's or Isa's approval to keep talking.

Frankly I don't think the west knows quite what to do with the Catholic Patriarchs of the eastern rites and rituals.  I think that is part of what the discussion is going to need to include. 

I have seen over time that the less eastern Catholic hiearachs behave like leaders the more the Roman rite bishops and Cardinals try to walk all over them.  The more an eastern Catholic hierarch behaves like a Patriarch or a Metropolitan or an Archbishop, the bigger the dust storm but the eastern jurisdictions gain ground each time.

So that internal struggle is as necessary to Catholics being prepared to accept the resumption of communion with Sister Churches...just as the struggle over the diptychs is necessary for Orthodoxy.

To just stand and point and cry "Shame" at one another isn't helpful at all.  Isn't useful at all. 


What necessary struggle over the diptychs?
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2011, 08:51:47 PM »

Um... should we all be throwing around this word?  Huh

I don't think we should use it too freely, but sometimes it can be appropriate.

See also:

I'm generally not much of a cartoonist; but a cartoon I saw recently, written by a traditionalist Catholic, has inspired me to come up with a variation on it.

The setting is a Catholic parish meeting. The priest says, “Here's the list of non-Catholic groups we're meeting with this week:
Monday, Astrology Enthusiasts
Tuseday, Secular Humanist Club
Wednesday, Taskforce on Feminist Theology
Thursday, Yoga and Transcendental Meditation Group
Friday, Eastern Orth- OK, who's the wise guy?”

(Could also be SSPX rather than Eastern Orthodox.)

Here's the original cartoon: http://catholiccartoonblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/diversity-yes-catholicism-no.html
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« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2011, 10:51:02 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQmFMXkhXPY

Um... should we all be throwing around this word?  Huh

I was hoping that at least one of the recent debate threads wouldn't turn into a train wreck... please...  Cry

We can keep talking.  I don't need Father A's or Isa's approval to keep talking.


You absolutely have my approval to keep talking.   laugh Cheesy
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2011, 11:07:23 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQmFMXkhXPY

Um... should we all be throwing around this word?  Huh

I was hoping that at least one of the recent debate threads wouldn't turn into a train wreck... please...  Cry

We can keep talking.  I don't need Father A's or Isa's approval to keep talking.


You absolutely have my approval to keep talking.   laugh Cheesy

 Tongue Tongue Tongue

Now there's a left handed something or other...

Thousand pardons to all southpaws...
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Peter J
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« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2011, 06:15:16 PM »

Because the Pope is the supreme ruler of your communion.  The other Patriarchs aren't really Patriarchs in the sense that they are in the Orthodox Church, rather they are auxiliary bishops given wide latitude as are all bishops of your communion, aside from the Pope (with that latitude varying based on their position).

Didn't our communion used to be your communion too?


Let us enjoy communion again.

Past attempts at union (e.g. the Council of Florence and the Union of Brest) haven't been as successful as we would have liked. However, I like to think that the next union(s) will be different.

As we saw in another thread the Popes are not dealing honestly with the Orthodox.  They are going along with the current charade of "tell us how you'd like to see the power and position of the bishop of Rome"  but they are hiding from us what they see as the limits, what can be thrown away and what authority and power they want to retain after union is achieved. 

Will he agree, for example, that our Patriarchs are his equals and our Churches are equally autocephalous with Rome?  Or will he want to reduce the status of our Patriarchs to that of his current Eastern Catholic ones, and reduce  our Church to the same inferior autonomous ranking?

There's not a great amount of honesty and clarity coming from the Vatican.  That does not augur well for the dialogue.

I don't think it's true to say that "the Popes are not dealing honestly with the Orthodox". They might not have laid all their cards on the table, but that's hardly the same.

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« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2011, 06:15:43 PM »

I don't recall whether someone mentioned this already or not, but at the top of

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html

is this note:

Quote
The following is the original English text of the ‘Ravenna Document’ which was discussed and unanimously approved by the members of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church during the tenth plenary session of the Commission held in Ravenna from 8-14 October 2007. Thus, the document represents the outcome of the work of a Commission and should not be understood as an official declaration of the Church’s teaching. The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity has provided translations of the text in Italian, French and German.

I'd say that's pretty honest.
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« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2011, 06:27:39 PM »

I don't recall whether someone mentioned this already or not, but at the top of

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html

is this note:

Quote
The following is the original English text of the ‘Ravenna Document’ which was discussed and unanimously approved by the members of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church during the tenth plenary session of the Commission held in Ravenna from 8-14 October 2007. Thus, the document represents the outcome of the work of a Commission and should not be understood as an official declaration of the Church’s teaching. The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity has provided translations of the text in Italian, French and German.

I'd say that's pretty honest.

There's a little piece of history behind the phrase you bolded.

Ratzinger and the Vatican criticised the Ravenna Statement for advancing ecclesiology unacceptable to Catholic doctrine on the Church.  This was in Zenit.

Of course Ravenna was the brain child of Cardinal Kasper, Ratzinger's favourite "to hate" brother in the Curia.

So that phrase is a very polite way of trying to accommodate both Ratzinger and Kasper, without offending the latter.
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