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Author Topic: What Grace(s) would the IC Confer?  (Read 7833 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2010, 09:37:55 PM »

LOL...what is the purpose of God?
I guess what I am trying to say is that concept of the essence/energies distinction does not seem to come from God himself, but from us trying to solve a philosophical problem.
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« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2010, 09:42:08 PM »


I see what you mean. I think we were talking past each other, or perhaps I misunderstood you.

Wonderful news!!  Smiley 

I do think we were passing in the night for a moment but I am glad that our thinking coincides on this point!!

Makes continuing the discussion more pleasant...maybe even more possible.   Smiley

M.
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« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2010, 09:42:43 PM »

So you have the Triune God running on parallel tracks through eternity?

Track One-Essence

Track Two-Energies

?
That has always been my biggest concern about the essence/energies distinction. They speak of two Trinities. One eternal, the other economic.

In connection with Papist's concern may I ask you, Mary, if Eastern Catholicism has left behind the Eastern teaching on Essence and Energies?  Has it found it untenable in light of Roman Catholic theology (simplicitas Dei) and adopted the same. In light of what you are saying here I have the feeling that you have?
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« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2010, 09:43:15 PM »

It seems that the Energies are defined in such a way that their function is to interact with Creation.

No, that's not the case. They do certainly interact with Creation. But that is not their primordial function.

What was the purpose of the Energies before creation?

Actually, I believe that Irish Hermit identified the Filiation of the Son and the Spiration of the Holy Spirit as Energies, and regarding this I agree with him.
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« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2010, 09:44:18 PM »

LOL...what is the purpose of God?
I guess what I am trying to say is that concept of the essence/energies distinction does not seem to come from God himself, but from us trying to solve a philosophical problem.

Oh my goodness!!

It addresses far more than a philosophical issue.

It addresses the very question of how in heaven's name can a creature like me and you participate in the divine life without turning into crispy cinders in the process: to return to the sun and its rays as analog.

M.
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« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2010, 09:44:30 PM »

It seems often the Energies are often expressed as some sort of action.

This may or may not be a proper explanation, or it may be overly simplistic. Please correct me if so.

So, how would God be identified as being His actions?

Very clever fellow...A righteous tickler!!

Go to the head of the class....I am not joking to this point.

God is beyond BEING is he not?

That would make God beyond BUNDLES!!

So how can BUNDLES=HE?

A BUNDLE of Hypostases?   Smiley

Are energies [grace] an eternal part of the God-head, or do they only existed in temporal dispensation?

M.

He's already answered that one: they are uncreated.

So you have the Triune God running on parallel tracks through eternity?

Track One-Essence

Track Two-Energies

?

I'm not sure I understand the meaning of your language "running on parallel tracks"?
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« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2010, 09:46:27 PM »

Energies=Acts

I suspect that the nature of the Energies is more complicated than that, but I haven't yet gotten a straightforward answer to correct that definition.
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« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2010, 09:46:59 PM »

It seems that the Energies are defined in such a way that their function is to interact with Creation.

No, that's not the case. They do certainly interact with Creation. But that is not their primordial function.

What was the purpose of the Energies before creation?

Actually, I believe that Irish Hermit identified the Filiation of the Son and the Spiration of the Holy Spirit as Energies, and regarding this I agree with him.

Father Source

But are these agreed upon as Energies or are they the very "essence" of the Trinitarian Hypostases?..if you will permit that language.

And it is generally agreed that Energies are not Hypostases is it not?
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« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2010, 09:48:36 PM »

So you have the Triune God running on parallel tracks through eternity?

Track One-Essence

Track Two-Energies

?
That has always been my biggest concern about the essence/energies distinction. They speak of two Trinities. One eternal, the other economic.

I don't think that it would be accurate to describe the Energies of God as economic, strictly speaking.
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« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2010, 09:48:49 PM »

Oh my goodness!!
It addresses far more than a philosophical issue.
It addresses the very question of how in heaven's name can a creature like me and you participate in the divine life without turning into crispy cinders in the process: to return to the sun and its rays as analog.
M.
Not really. God can simply will that we not be destroyed while we particpate in his life withouth there being a distinction between his essence and his energies. Your explanation of his energies concerns me further because it seems to make his energies into something less than his essence, and if that is the case, then we are talking about ditheism here.
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« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2010, 09:50:09 PM »

I don't think that it would be accurate to describe the Energies of God as economic, strictly speaking.
I have heard this description from EOs on this very board on several occassions, though that was probably years ago.

The best explanation that I have ever heard of the Energies, is that God is infinite, and pours out even beyond the concept of essence.
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« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2010, 09:51:52 PM »

It addresses the very question of how in heaven's name can a creature like me and you participate in the divine life without turning into crispy cinders in the process: to return to the sun and its rays as analog.

Great analogy!  Grin

You're right, we cannot participate in the Essence of God and therefore we must be participating in His Energies.

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.
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« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2010, 09:52:16 PM »

Actually, I believe that Irish Hermit identified the Filiation of the Son and the Spiration of the Holy Spirit as Energies, and regarding this I agree with him.
So the Son and the Holy Spirit are energetic but not essential? Then is not of God's nature to be Trinitarian? See how many dangerous places a radical distinction between God's essence and his energies leads us?
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« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2010, 09:52:37 PM »

It seems often the Energies are often expressed as some sort of action.

This may or may not be a proper explanation, or it may be overly simplistic. Please correct me if so.

So, how would God be identified as being His actions?

Very clever fellow...A righteous tickler!!

Go to the head of the class....I am not joking to this point.

God is beyond BEING is he not?

That would make God beyond BUNDLES!!

So how can BUNDLES=HE?

A BUNDLE of Hypostases?   Smiley

Are energies [grace] an eternal part of the God-head, or do they only existed in temporal dispensation?

M.

He's already answered that one: they are uncreated.

So you have the Triune God running on parallel tracks through eternity?

Track One-Essence

Track Two-Energies

?

I'm not sure I understand the meaning of your language "running on parallel tracks"?

Let's leave this for the moment.  I am probing.  So if I find a better way of probing for this particular issue, it will come more clear, ok?

I am trying to keep it simple and plain rather than resorting to typing in tons of text from Lossky or Palamas or others....that's all...at least for the moment.

M.
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« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2010, 09:53:05 PM »

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.
We can experience his Essence if he so wills it. There is no theological problem here.
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« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2010, 09:54:42 PM »

It addresses the very question of how in heaven's name can a creature like me and you participate in the divine life without turning into crispy cinders in the process: to return to the sun and its rays as analog.

Great analogy!  Grin

You're right, we cannot participate in the Essence of God and therefore we must be participating in His Energies.

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.

Oh...Well I understand Thomas because as we've already noted here several times....

The Essence and Energies are One

There is little except the protestations of young Orthodox men writing theses, that separate St. Thomas from St. Gregory.

M.
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« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2010, 09:56:13 PM »

It addresses the very question of how in heaven's name can a creature like me and you participate in the divine life without turning into crispy cinders in the process: to return to the sun and its rays as analog.

Great analogy!  Grin

You're right, we cannot participate in the Essence of God and therefore we must be participating in His Energies.

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.

Oh...Well I understand Thomas because as we've already noted here several times....

The Essence and Energies are One

There is little except the protestations of young Orthodox men writing theses, that separate St. Thomas from St. Gregory.

M.
Oh you see the essence and energies as one. Ok, then I am with you here and I agree with what you have said. Sorry, sometimes it's difficult to translate back and forth between Western and Eastern theological language.
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« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2010, 09:56:59 PM »

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.
We can experience his Essence if he so wills it. There is no theological problem here.

We do experience His essence: in the mode of the receiver rather than in the mode of the giver: in the mode of a creature, rather than the mode of the Divine Trinity

Essence and Energies are One

St. Gregory insists on it.

M.
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« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2010, 09:58:09 PM »

Father Source

Huh

But are these agreed upon as Energies or are they the very "essence" of the Trinitarian Hypostases?..if you will permit that language.

I don't know if it's agreed upon. I have heard the theory a few times, but not many.

No, they are not "the Essence" of the hypostases. You cannot suggest that the Filiation is part of the Essence of Son or else He technically winds up having a slightly different Essence from the Father. Everything that is the Essence of the Son must be exactly the same as the Essence of the Father.

There are basically three different concepts that are relevant to understanding the Son and the Spirit, those being Hypostasis, Essence, and Energy. Energy is what causes them to be. Essence is what they inherit as their substance of being (as well as the Energies pertaining to it). Hypostasis is what they are (as the Son is not the Father who is not the Spirit who is not the Son).

And it is generally agreed that Energies are not Hypostases is it not?

Yep. In discussing the Trinity, Energy, Essence, and Hypostasis are all realities distinct from each other.
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« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2010, 09:58:55 PM »

We do experience His essence: in the mode of the receiver rather than in the mode of the giver: in the mode of a creature, rather than the mode of the Divine Trinity.
Essence and Energies are One
St. Gregory insists on it.
M.
I agree with you. Can you provide some sources on the idea that Gregory Palamas insists that the essence and energies are one?
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« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2010, 10:00:35 PM »

It addresses the very question of how in heaven's name can a creature like me and you participate in the divine life without turning into crispy cinders in the process: to return to the sun and its rays as analog.

Great analogy!  Grin

You're right, we cannot participate in the Essence of God and therefore we must be participating in His Energies.


Yes, exactly. In Orthodox theology it is impossible to participate in the Essence of God, because that is God's God-ness and is utterly transcendent.

That is why I used the initial example of a human person, because a person's internal life is utterly transcendent to all other people. No person can enter into another person's inner life. God's essence, his "inner life" so to speak, is inaccessible also.
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« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2010, 10:01:28 PM »

Actually, I believe that Irish Hermit identified the Filiation of the Son and the Spiration of the Holy Spirit as Energies, and regarding this I agree with him.
So the Son and the Holy Spirit are energetic but not essential? Then is not of God's nature to be Trinitarian? See how many dangerous places a radical distinction between God's essence and his energies leads us?

Just because the Son and the Spirit are caused to come into being by Energies does not mean that they are not Essential.

Even the Creation was caused to come into being by Energies, but what they actually came into being from was nothing.

And no, Trinitarianism cannot possibly be a fundamental aspect of God's Essence because then the Father would not have the fullness of the Godhead in and of Himself independent of His causing the Son and the Spirit to Be.
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« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2010, 10:02:18 PM »

Father Source

Huh

But are these agreed upon as Energies or are they the very "essence" of the Trinitarian Hypostases?..if you will permit that language.

I don't know if it's agreed upon. I have heard the theory a few times, but not many.

No, they are not "the Essence" of the hypostases. You cannot suggest that the Filiation is part of the Essence of Son or else He technically winds up having a slightly different Essence from the Father. Everything that is the Essence of the Son must be exactly the same as the Essence of the Father.

There are basically three different concepts that are relevant to understanding the Son and the Spirit, those being Hypostasis, Essence, and Energy. Energy is what causes them to be. Essence is what they inherit as their substance of being (as well as the Energies pertaining to it). Hypostasis is what they are (as the Son is not the Father who is not the Spirit who is not the Son).

And it is generally agreed that Energies are not Hypostases is it not?

Yep. In discussing the Trinity, Energy, Essence, and Hypostasis are all realities distinct from each other.

Father-Generation [of Son and Holy Spirit]
Son-Filiation
Holy Spirit-Spiration

Better?

And yes.  You cannot have Generation, Filiation, and Spiration as equal to Essence or Essences, worse yet!

M.
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« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2010, 10:04:05 PM »

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.
We can experience his Essence if he so wills it. There is no theological problem here.

We do experience His essence: in the mode of the receiver rather than in the mode of the giver: in the mode of a creature, rather than the mode of the Divine Trinity

Essence and Energies are One

St. Gregory insists on it.

M.

They are one single reality, but part of that reality is transcendent while the other part is not. Similarly, a person can enjoy the sun perfectly fine on a chair at the beach, but he cannot enjoy the sun from within the 10 million degree plasma.
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« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2010, 10:07:34 PM »

Actually, I believe that Irish Hermit identified the Filiation of the Son and the Spiration of the Holy Spirit as Energies, and regarding this I agree with him.
So the Son and the Holy Spirit are energetic but not essential? Then is not of God's nature to be Trinitarian? See how many dangerous places a radical distinction between God's essence and his energies leads us?

Just because the Son and the Spirit are caused to come into being by Energies does not mean that they are not Essential.

Even the Creation was caused to come into being by Energies, but what they actually came into being from was nothing.

And no, Trinitarianism cannot possibly be a fundamental aspect of God's Essence because then the Father would not have the fullness of the Godhead in and of Himself independent of His causing the Son and the Spirit to Be.

Woah

God is Source, Archon

Son and Holy Spirit did NOT NOT NOT come into being!!
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« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2010, 10:08:59 PM »

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.
We can experience his Essence if he so wills it. There is no theological problem here.

We do experience His essence: in the mode of the receiver rather than in the mode of the giver: in the mode of a creature, rather than the mode of the Divine Trinity

Essence and Energies are One

St. Gregory insists on it.

M.

They are one single reality, but part of that reality is transcendent while the other part is not. Similarly, a person can enjoy the sun perfectly fine on a chair at the beach, but he cannot enjoy the sun from within the 10 million degree plasma.

But it is a matter of distance NOT kind.

Where is it on the Sun-Ray continuum that the Essence morphs into Energies?
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« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2010, 10:09:17 PM »

The Father eternally begets the Son and eternally proceeds the Holy Spirit. Their existence is derived from the Father. That does not mean that the Son and Holy Spirit once did not exist.
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« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2010, 10:09:38 PM »

Not really. God can simply will that we not be destroyed while we particpate in his life withouth there being a distinction between his essence and his energies.

No. God cannot do the logically impossible. We cannot participate in that which is strictly infinite.

Your explanation of his energies concerns me further because it seems to make his energies into something less than his essence, and if that is the case, then we are talking about ditheism here.

How does God emitting forth that which reflects His Essence out from His inner being imply ditheism?
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« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2010, 10:11:13 PM »

I don't think that it would be accurate to describe the Energies of God as economic, strictly speaking.
I have heard this description from EOs on this very board on several occassions, though that was probably years ago.

The best explanation that I have ever heard of the Energies, is that God is infinite, and pours out even beyond the concept of essence.

I don't think that really works if the primary description of what His Essence is is infinity. Why would infinity pour out beyond infinity?
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« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2010, 10:11:43 PM »

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.
We can experience his Essence if he so wills it. There is no theological problem here.

We do experience His essence: in the mode of the receiver rather than in the mode of the giver: in the mode of a creature, rather than the mode of the Divine Trinity

Essence and Energies are One

St. Gregory insists on it.

M.

They are one single reality, but part of that reality is transcendent while the other part is not. Similarly, a person can enjoy the sun perfectly fine on a chair at the beach, but he cannot enjoy the sun from within the 10 million degree plasma.

But it is a matter of distance NOT kind.

Where is it on the Sun-Ray continuum that the Essence morphs into Energies?

Like I said earlier, this analogy breaks down if you don't assume a pre-scientific mindset. According to a pre-scientific mindset, the sun is both two different things (the bright surface and the heat/light on earth) and yet the same single reality. I suppose that's as far as you can take it.
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« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2010, 10:14:05 PM »

The Father eternally begets the Son and eternally proceeds the Holy Spirit. Their existence is derived from the Father. That does not mean that the Son and Holy Spirit once did not exist.

Nononono...do not use the language of derivation.  The Son and Spirit are NOT derived.  They ARE.

The Father is the Source, the Archon...

The rest is mystery.

I hate to say it but it is a protestant habit to speak of derivation with the Persons of the Trinity.
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« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2010, 10:16:40 PM »

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.
We can experience his Essence if he so wills it. There is no theological problem here.

We do experience His essence: in the mode of the receiver rather than in the mode of the giver: in the mode of a creature, rather than the mode of the Divine Trinity

Essence and Energies are One

St. Gregory insists on it.

M.

They are one single reality, but part of that reality is transcendent while the other part is not. Similarly, a person can enjoy the sun perfectly fine on a chair at the beach, but he cannot enjoy the sun from within the 10 million degree plasma.

But it is a matter of distance NOT kind.

Where is it on the Sun-Ray continuum that the Essence morphs into Energies?

Like I said earlier, this analogy breaks down if you don't assume a pre-scientific mindset. According to a pre-scientific mindset, the sun is both two different things (the bright surface and the heat/light on earth) and yet the same single reality. I suppose that's as far as you can take it.

Oh the great ones [saints] have gotten a little further than this, but not tonight.  I am too sleepy and will have to soon begin to seek sources.  I have them right here but I am too pooped to seek them out in their particulars...

But this has been fun!!

Thanks...

Mary
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« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2010, 10:20:42 PM »

The Father eternally begets the Son and eternally proceeds the Holy Spirit. Their existence is derived from the Father. That does not mean that the Son and Holy Spirit once did not exist.

Nononono...do not use the language of derivation.  The Son and Spirit are NOT derived.  They ARE.

The Father is the Source, the Archon...

The rest is mystery.

I hate to say it but it is a protestant habit to speak of derivation with the Persons of the Trinity.

It is?  Huh  I've read quite lengthy discourses about the eternal procession of the Spirit and the eternal begetting of the Son from quite Orthodox sources.

The Father is autotheos, wholly self-existent. The Son and Holy Spirit are pre-eternal with the Father, but they are not self-existent. If they were, we would be tritheists.
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« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2010, 10:24:51 PM »

The Father eternally begets the Son and eternally proceeds the Holy Spirit. Their existence is derived from the Father. That does not mean that the Son and Holy Spirit once did not exist.

Nononono...do not use the language of derivation.  The Son and Spirit are NOT derived.  They ARE.

The Father is the Source, the Archon...

The rest is mystery.

I hate to say it but it is a protestant habit to speak of derivation with the Persons of the Trinity.

It is?  Huh  I've read quite lengthy discourses about the eternal procession of the Spirit and the eternal begetting of the Son from quite Orthodox sources.

The Father is autotheos, wholly self-existent. The Son and Holy Spirit are pre-eternal with the Father, but they are not self-existent. If they were, we would be tritheists.

I am not arguing that there is no Spiration and no Filiation and no Source

I am arguing against the implications of using the language of "derivation" to talk about that particular mystery.

eh...?

M.
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« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2010, 10:41:22 PM »


And no, Trinitarianism cannot possibly be a fundamental aspect of God's Essence because then the Father would not have the fullness of the Godhead in and of Himself independent of His causing the Son and the Spirit to Be.
Wow. This sounds down right heretical. Elijah Maria can correct me if I am wrong, but God the Father is Father. That is what he is, from all eternity and would not have been otherwise. That sounds essential to me. Elijah, help me out, but isn't it God'e existence as Trinity, essential to Him?
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« Reply #80 on: September 22, 2010, 11:05:41 PM »


And no, Trinitarianism cannot possibly be a fundamental aspect of God's Essence because then the Father would not have the fullness of the Godhead in and of Himself independent of His causing the Son and the Spirit to Be.
Wow. This sounds down right heretical. Elijah Maria can correct me if I am wrong, but God the Father is Father. That is what he is, from all eternity and would not have been otherwise. That sounds essential to me. Elijah, help me out, but isn't it God'e existence as Trinity, essential to Him?

Meet Nestor-or extreme monarchialism

++++++++++++++

EACH have the fullness of the Godhead

++++++++++++++

NOT ONE of the Persons of the Trinity COME INTO BEING

They ARE


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« Reply #81 on: September 22, 2010, 11:07:54 PM »

Meet Nestor-or extreme monarchialism
++++++++++++++
EACH have the fullness of the Godhead
++++++++++++++
NOT ONE of the Persons of the Trinity COME INTO BEING
They ARE
Thanks for replying Elijah Maria. I was thinking along the same lines
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« Reply #82 on: September 22, 2010, 11:08:25 PM »

The Father eternally begets the Son and eternally proceeds the Holy Spirit. Their existence is derived from the Father. That does not mean that the Son and Holy Spirit once did not exist.

Nononono...do not use the language of derivation.  The Son and Spirit are NOT derived.  They ARE.

The Father is the Source, the Archon...

The rest is mystery.

I hate to say it but it is a protestant habit to speak of derivation with the Persons of the Trinity.

It is?  Huh  I've read quite lengthy discourses about the eternal procession of the Spirit and the eternal begetting of the Son from quite Orthodox sources.

The Father is autotheos, wholly self-existent. The Son and Holy Spirit are pre-eternal with the Father, but they are not self-existent. If they were, we would be tritheists.

I am not arguing that there is no Spiration and no Filiation and no Source

I am arguing against the implications of using the language of "derivation" to talk about that particular mystery.

eh...?

M.

derived - formed or developed from something else; not original
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« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2010, 11:10:49 PM »

Meet Nestor-or extreme monarchialism

Elijah, do you think that this extreme monarchialism comes from anti-western sentiments since Latins tend to emphasize the ontological equality of the Divine Persons?
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« Reply #84 on: September 22, 2010, 11:18:10 PM »

Meet Nestor-or extreme monarchialism

Elijah, do you think that this extreme monarchialism comes from anti-western sentiments since Latins tend to emphasize the ontological equality of the Divine Persons?

No...It's part of what set Nestor and the Nestorians apart.

I've never read any Orthodox text that has said what deusveritasest has said here.

M.
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« Reply #85 on: September 22, 2010, 11:34:19 PM »

Ecumenical Council of Nicea, 325:

The Father is the source of Godhead, born of none and proceeding from none; the Son is born of the Father from all eternity; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father from all eternity.

And....

The Cappadocians regarded the 'monarchy' as the distinctive  characteristic
of the Father:  He alone is a principle or arche within the Trinity.

But Western Theology ascribes the distinctive characteristic of the  Father
to  the Son as well, thus fusing the two persons into one; and what else is
this but 'Sabellius reborn, or  rather  some  semi-Sabellian  monster',  as
Saint Photius put it?

To Orthodox Theologians the persons are OVERSHADOWED [in Catholic theology]
by the common  nature, and God is thought of not so much in concrete and personal
terms, but as an essence in which various relations are distinguished.  This way
of thinking about  God  comes to full development in Thomas Aquinas, who went
so far as to  identify  the  persons  with  the  relations:   personae   sunt   ipsae
relationes
.  Orthodox thinkers find this a very meagre idea of personality.
The relations, they would say, are not the persons - they are the  personal
characteristics  of  Father,  Son, and Holy Spirit; and (as Gregory Palamas
put it) 'personal characteristics do not constitute the  person,  but  they
characterize the person'.  The relations, while designating the persons, in
no way exhaust the mystery of each.....

http://www.orthodoxcatechism.com/doctrine/filioque.htm

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« Reply #86 on: September 22, 2010, 11:44:34 PM »

^ Father A, you know very well that the Son would remain distinct from  the Father, even in light of the Filioque, because the Son is begotten of the Father. You also know very well that the Catholics profess the distinction in persons and do NOT fuse any of them. Finally, you also know that in Catholic theology, the manner in which the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, as primary/ultimate source, is different from the way in which the Holy Spirit proceeds from The Son, who is secondary/penultimate source; thus, maintaining the distinction in persons. In fact, the Catholic medieval councils specifically point out that we do, in fact, profess the distinction of persons.
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« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2010, 03:01:36 AM »

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.
We can experience his Essence if he so wills it. There is no theological problem here.

The theological problem is that the Essence is strictly infinite, and finite beings cannot logically experience that which is infinite.
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« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2010, 03:03:58 AM »

Oh...Well I understand Thomas because as we've already noted here several times....

The Essence and Energies are One

That's not Palamism.

And if there is no real distinction between the nature of the Essence and Energies, then we simply cannot participate in them at all.

We cannot participate in the Essence because it is strictly infinite.

So if the Energies are not somehow different from that, then there simply is no participation.
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« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2010, 03:05:21 AM »

Given this, it really makes me wonder how you could possibly defend the traditional Thomist conception of the beatific vision, that is perceiving the very Essence of God.
We can experience his Essence if he so wills it. There is no theological problem here.

We do experience His essence: in the mode of the receiver rather than in the mode of the giver: in the mode of a creature, rather than the mode of the Divine Trinity

Essence and Energies are One

St. Gregory insists on it.

M.

Which Gregory are you talking about?

Again, the Essence is infinite. Are you suggesting we can in any way experience infinity?
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