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Author Topic: Repose of Archbishop Chrysostomos of Athens  (Read 3661 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 19, 2010, 09:20:32 AM »

Repose of Archbishop Chrysostomos of Athens
--------------------------------------------

News has arrived via the Serbian True Orthodox Church indicating that
Archbishop Chrysostomos II (Kiousis) of Athens, the first hierarch of the
G.O.C. has reposed in the Lord.

Memory Eternal!

[from the indiana list]
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2010, 11:15:50 PM »

Biography

http://news-nftu.blogspot.com/2010/09/repose-of-archbishop-chrysostomos-of.html
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 09:39:29 PM »

I can't believe it: for leading a schism and deceiving the people we say "memory eternal"?
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 09:45:46 PM »

I can't believe it: for leading a schism and deceiving the people we say "memory eternal"?

One man's schism is another man's standing up for the Faith.
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 09:53:04 PM »

I can't believe it: for leading a schism and deceiving the people we say "memory eternal"?

Please restrain yourself from further speaking ill of the deceased, especially when some of your fellow posters here on the forum are in mourning on the death of their first hierarch (myself being one of them).

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 10:58:50 PM »

I can't believe it: for leading a schism and deceiving the people we say "memory eternal"?

When we say "Memory Eternal" it is not a word of praise and, like wise, not a word of ill. To say "Memory Eternal" is a reminder for us to pray for the departed soul. We can take both the good and bad examples of the departed and use them to help us walk the straight path. We remember evil doers such as Herod, Nero, Arius, Hitler and Stalin as examples of what not to do just as we remember the Saints and Martyrs as examples of how to live one's life.

The worst fate is to not be remembered by anyone. As for Archbishop Chrysostomos, his Memory should be Eternal, either as a faithful bishops by those under him or, for leading a group in schism from the Church. It is not for us to judge his life and actions but we can learn from them. So may his memory be eternal!
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 11:51:56 PM »

My intention is not to speak ill of anyone nor was I trying to be insensitive to fellow posters who are mourning the death of their leader. Let that be made clear. I would like to deal objectively with the issue and not let my comments be viewed as speaking ill of the deceased. If anyone has taken my comments offensively, for that I apologies.

Separate from the issue that this man has passed away, I would like to make the point (as I have a right to as a member of this board) as an Orthodox Christian who believes in ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that this group is regarded by the Canonical Orthodox Churches in the world as an uncanonical and schismatic group.

Of course we say "memory eternal" for those who wish to pray for the departed soul. To me it seemed like people's comments were endorsements of glorification for this man. For me, my soul aches when I see people admiring those who lead a schism and create pain for the Body of Christ. For that, I do NOT apologise.

Upon the death of Patriarch Bartholemew, I can only imagine the things people would write.
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2010, 12:29:09 AM »

It's a matter of saying what is polite and respectful, even if one disagrees with the deceased and the Church he led.  Being Oriental Orthodox, I was not in communion with the Archbishop, but I can still pray for him and say "memory eternal."
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2010, 07:52:59 AM »

Prayers were moved to the Prayer Forum in order not to disturb them with this discussion.
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2010, 08:18:44 AM »

I can't believe it: for leading a schism and deceiving the people we say "memory eternal"?

Mattheos,

It was me who relayed the message, which had first appeared on the Indiana list and was sent by a GOC priest.  I must admit that I thought about the "Memory Eternal" but left the message intact, out of respect for Fr Anastasios since I knew he was a spiritual son of this Archbishop.

In the months ahead people will review the work and achievements of Archbp Chrysostomos and whether the Church and the movement which he led was for the weal or woe of Orthodoxy but at the moment we can respect the mourning period of those who accepted him as their Primate and ask the Lord's mercy for him.
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2010, 08:49:46 AM »

I can't believe it: for leading a schism and deceiving the people we say "memory eternal"?

His Grace was a fellow human being i.e. an icon of God and as an Orthodox we ought to love and pray even for our enemies.

Upon the death of Patriarch Bartholemew, I can only imagine the things people would write.

"Memory eternal"?
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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2010, 09:19:57 AM »

For me, my soul aches when I see people admiring those who lead a schism and create pain for the Body of Christ.


Mattheos, if that troubles you then rather than addressing this subject in the context of the recently departed Abp Chrysostomos, it would perhaps be best for you to ask the editors of the Orthodox Study Bible and the Antiochian Archdiocese why they continue to promote and support the living Abp Gregory of Colorado who believes the Antiochians and all in communion with them are "graceless heretics."  See the following thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29976.0.html
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2010, 10:18:48 AM »

My objection is not that someone speaks his mind about a theological issue on our forum (that is, after all, what a forum is for) but rather the context of it being in a thread about someone's death.

For the record, when His All Holiness reposes, you will not see me make any message disparaging his life, despite the fact that I feel the same way about His All Holiness as Matthaios feels about my Archbishop. There may be people who do disparage the Patriarch when he reposes, but I won't be one of them. Criticisms should be offered while the person is alive, not after they are gone, in my opinion.

I believe we need to stop treating these issues as "my team versus your team" if we are to have any hope of resolving the schism, which I believe can be resolved through prayer and humility and a respect for Orthodox Tradition.
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2010, 10:56:03 AM »


...if we are taught "to pray for our enemies," how much more should we pray for one of our own, regardless if we agreed or disagreed with him?

When Christ was hung on the Cross, He looked down at His accusers and asked that the Father forgive them.  What a perfect example of forgiveness and asking the Father to forgive others and have mercy on their souls.

I don't know much about Archbishop Chrysostomos of Athens, other than he was a man who has now passed away.

May the Lord have mercy upon him, forgive him any and all of sins, and grant him a peaceful repose.

If we want to "change" things, we need to talk to the living, and let the departed rest.



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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2010, 08:11:01 PM »

For me, my soul aches when I see people admiring those who lead a schism and create pain for the Body of Christ.


Mattheos, if that troubles you then rather than addressing this subject in the context of the recently departed Abp Chrysostomos, it would perhaps be best for you to ask the editors of the Orthodox Study Bible and the Antiochian Archdiocese why they continue to promote and support the living Abp Gregory of Colorado who believes the Antiochians and all in communion with them are "graceless heretics."  See the following thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29976.0.html

Well, perhaps that can be a topic for discussion another time. A canonical Orthodox Church who accepts the iconographic work of a schismatic is not the same thing as accepting the schism he leads.
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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2010, 09:10:36 PM »

For me, my soul aches when I see people admiring those who lead a schism and create pain for the Body of Christ.


Mattheos, if that troubles you then rather than addressing this subject in the context of the recently departed Abp Chrysostomos, it would perhaps be best for you to ask the editors of the Orthodox Study Bible and the Antiochian Archdiocese why they continue to promote and support the living Abp Gregory of Colorado who believes the Antiochians and all in communion with them are "graceless heretics."  See the following thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29976.0.html

Well, perhaps that can be a topic for discussion another time. A canonical Orthodox Church who accepts the iconographic work of a schismatic is not the same thing as accepting the schism he leads.

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 09:31:51 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2010, 12:47:48 AM »

For me, my soul aches when I see people admiring those who lead a schism and create pain for the Body of Christ.


Mattheos, if that troubles you then rather than addressing this subject in the context of the recently departed Abp Chrysostomos, it would perhaps be best for you to ask the editors of the Orthodox Study Bible and the Antiochian Archdiocese why they continue to promote and support the living Abp Gregory of Colorado who believes the Antiochians and all in communion with them are "graceless heretics."  See the following thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29976.0.html

Well, perhaps that can be a topic for discussion another time. A canonical Orthodox Church who accepts the iconographic work of a schismatic is not the same thing as accepting the schism he leads.

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    

Well, that will be your decision; however, I am placing my hope in God for the right outcome and not in the possibility of jointing a schismatic group.
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2010, 12:55:35 AM »

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    

That doesn't make any sense. Joining schismatics in response to your hierarchs joining heretics is essentially to admit that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church and in response vainly going to the next best thing to what the Church was. If one really believes in the indefectibility of the Church then joining schismatics or heretics should never be required: there should always be a faithful segment that is neither schismatic nor heretical, no matter how small and obscure it may become.
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2010, 01:00:30 AM »

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    

That doesn't make any sense. Joining schismatics in response to your hierarchs joining heretics is essentially to admit that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church and in response vainly going to the next best thing to what the Church was. If one really believes in the indefectibility of the Church then joining schismatics or heretics should never be required: there should always be a faithful segment that is neither schismatic nor heretical, no matter how small and obscure it may become.

Finally, someone I can agree with on this forum.
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2010, 01:11:52 AM »

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    

That doesn't make any sense. Joining schismatics in response to your hierarchs joining heretics is essentially to admit that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church and in response vainly going to the next best thing to what the Church was. If one really believes in the indefectibility of the Church then joining schismatics or heretics should never be required: there should always be a faithful segment that is neither schismatic nor heretical, no matter how small and obscure it may become.

Finally, someone I can agree with on this forum.

Haha. We might have similar ecclesiologies, but given how anti-Chalcedonian I am you should probably hesitate to generalize that sentiment.  Tongue
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2010, 01:15:32 AM »

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    

That doesn't make any sense. Joining schismatics in response to your hierarchs joining heretics is essentially to admit that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church and in response vainly going to the next best thing to what the Church was. If one really believes in the indefectibility of the Church then joining schismatics or heretics should never be required: there should always be a faithful segment that is neither schismatic nor heretical, no matter how small and obscure it may become.


There Just as Orthodox as All orthodox are same faith ,belief,It's Just keeping our Holy traditions intact not being watered down or getting rid of them.....So there truer Toward Holy Orthodoxy than the New Calendar Orthodox are.. Plus there against Unity with rome ,until rome makes drastic changes before unity can be considered...
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2010, 01:18:28 AM »

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    

That doesn't make any sense. Joining schismatics in response to your hierarchs joining heretics is essentially to admit that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church and in response vainly going to the next best thing to what the Church was. If one really believes in the indefectibility of the Church then joining schismatics or heretics should never be required: there should always be a faithful segment that is neither schismatic nor heretical, no matter how small and obscure it may become.


There Just as Orthodox as All orthodox are same faith ,belief,It's Just keeping our Holy traditions intact not being watered down or getting rid of them.....So there truer Toward Holy Orthodoxy than the New Calendar Orthodox are.. Plus there against Unity with rome ,until rome makes drastic changes before unity can be considered...

They're just as Orthodox?

So Orthodoxy is just about having right perspective?

You're sounding borderline Branch Theorist here.
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2010, 01:48:16 AM »

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    

That doesn't make any sense. Joining schismatics in response to your hierarchs joining heretics is essentially to admit that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church and in response vainly going to the next best thing to what the Church was. If one really believes in the indefectibility of the Church then joining schismatics or heretics should never be required: there should always be a faithful segment that is neither schismatic nor heretical, no matter how small and obscure it may become.


There Just as Orthodox as All orthodox are same faith ,belief,It's Just keeping our Holy traditions intact not being watered down or getting rid of them.....So there truer Toward Holy Orthodoxy than the New Calendar Orthodox are.. Plus there against Unity with rome ,until rome makes drastic changes before unity can be considered...

They're just as Orthodox?

So Orthodoxy is just about having right perspective?

You're sounding borderline Branch Theorist here.

Faith is the same...Old Calendar just like us serbs...

Iv.attended one Genuine Holy Orthodox Church Here in Chicago ,,Loooved it.....Then one of there bishop in chicago  turned rouge and joined the New Calendar Greek Church, sold the church to condo developers ,they tore it down and put ugly condo's there,,A dark day in history it was for sure..
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2010, 01:50:20 AM »

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    

That doesn't make any sense. Joining schismatics in response to your hierarchs joining heretics is essentially to admit that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church and in response vainly going to the next best thing to what the Church was. If one really believes in the indefectibility of the Church then joining schismatics or heretics should never be required: there should always be a faithful segment that is neither schismatic nor heretical, no matter how small and obscure it may become.


There Just as Orthodox as All orthodox are same faith ,belief,It's Just keeping our Holy traditions intact not being watered down or getting rid of them.....So there truer Toward Holy Orthodoxy than the New Calendar Orthodox are.. Plus there against Unity with rome ,until rome makes drastic changes before unity can be considered...

They're just as Orthodox?

So Orthodoxy is just about having right perspective?

You're sounding borderline Branch Theorist here.

Faith is the same...Old Calendar just like us serbs...

Iv.attended one Genuine Holy Orthodox Church Here in Chicago ,,Loooved it.....Then one of there bishop in chicago  turned rouge and joined the New Calendar Greek Church, sold the church to condo developers ,they tore it down and put ugly condo's there,,A dark day in history it was for sure..

So you're a Branch Theorist. Ok.
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2010, 02:18:04 AM »

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    

That doesn't make any sense. Joining schismatics in response to your hierarchs joining heretics is essentially to admit that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church and in response vainly going to the next best thing to what the Church was. If one really believes in the indefectibility of the Church then joining schismatics or heretics should never be required: there should always be a faithful segment that is neither schismatic nor heretical, no matter how small and obscure it may become.


There Just as Orthodox as All orthodox are same faith ,belief,It's Just keeping our Holy traditions intact not being watered down or getting rid of them.....So there truer Toward Holy Orthodoxy than the New Calendar Orthodox are.. Plus there against Unity with rome ,until rome makes drastic changes before unity can be considered...

They're just as Orthodox?

So Orthodoxy is just about having right perspective?

You're sounding borderline Branch Theorist here.

Faith is the same...Old Calendar just like us serbs...

Iv.attended one Genuine Holy Orthodox Church Here in Chicago ,,Loooved it.....Then one of there bishop in chicago  turned rouge and joined the New Calendar Greek Church, sold the church to condo developers ,they tore it down and put ugly condo's there,,A dark day in history it was for sure..

So you're a Branch Theorist. Ok.

No there no such thing in Orthodoxy like what your saying i never heard of it ...Some will separate at times I call it family squabbles , but it not over what we believe in that remains the same ..but over traditions old calendar versus new calendar, pews, or no pews organs or no organs..The true Christmas old Jan 7 new 25....
Ecumenism or no ecumenism...
Serbs separated A while back not over faith issues but was the patriarch being influenced by Communism.....
So a free Serbian Orthodox Church was established... But we went to either one faith was the same..Finally we reunited ,but in the mean time being separated ,they build beautiful Byzantine Monasteries and churches many places...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 02:28:02 AM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2010, 02:34:05 AM »

If His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Keep on the path that he's on now,On the road to rome, i and many Orthodox will Join with Fr.Anastasios and the Genuine Orthodox Church......If serbian Orthodox Patriarch should want to join with rome i won't follow,  and mojority of serbs won't as well...    

That doesn't make any sense. Joining schismatics in response to your hierarchs joining heretics is essentially to admit that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church and in response vainly going to the next best thing to what the Church was. If one really believes in the indefectibility of the Church then joining schismatics or heretics should never be required: there should always be a faithful segment that is neither schismatic nor heretical, no matter how small and obscure it may become.


There Just as Orthodox as All orthodox are same faith ,belief,It's Just keeping our Holy traditions intact not being watered down or getting rid of them.....So there truer Toward Holy Orthodoxy than the New Calendar Orthodox are.. Plus there against Unity with rome ,until rome makes drastic changes before unity can be considered...

They're just as Orthodox?

So Orthodoxy is just about having right perspective?

You're sounding borderline Branch Theorist here.

Faith is the same...Old Calendar just like us serbs...

Iv.attended one Genuine Holy Orthodox Church Here in Chicago ,,Loooved it.....Then one of there bishop in chicago  turned rouge and joined the New Calendar Greek Church, sold the church to condo developers ,they tore it down and put ugly condo's there,,A dark day in history it was for sure..

So you're a Branch Theorist. Ok.

No there no such thing in Orthodoxy like what your saying i never heard of it ...Some will separate at times I call it family squabbles , but it not over what we believe in that remains the same ..but over traditions old calendar versus new calendar, pews, or no pews organs or no organs..The true Christmas old Jan 7 new 25....
Ecumenism or no ecumenism...
Serbs separated A while back not over faith issues but was the patriarch being influenced by Communism.....
So a free Serbian Orthodox Church was established... But we went to either one faith was the same..Finally we reunited ,but in the mean time being separated ,they build beautiful Byzantine Monasteries and churches many places...

Actually, yes, most Orthodox Christians understand that when a jurisdiction severs itself from inter-communion with the other members of the Church that it is in schism and is no longer part of the Church and therefore also no longer fully Orthodox in quite the same sense.

The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2010, 02:54:24 AM »



The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.

The recent official joint documents put out by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox constantly speak of:  "The two families agree...., the two families believe...., the two families recognise...."

The Oriental Orthodox ~ Branch Theorists?   Angry
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2010, 03:02:14 AM »



The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.

The recent official joint documents put out by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox constantly speak of:  "The two families agree...., the two families believe...., the two families recognise...."

The Oriental Orthodox ~ Branch Theorists?   Angry

Many of those who support the Byzantine-Oriental Agreed Statements are Branch Theorists, yes.
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2010, 03:21:31 AM »



The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.

The recent official joint documents put out by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox constantly speak of:  "The two families agree...., the two families believe...., the two families recognise...."

The Oriental Orthodox ~ Branch Theorists?   Angry


Fr. A question..I always thought that branch theory meant there are different paths , or different beliefs to salvation....Though some Orthodox did separate  over traditions..the heart or core of our faith remains the same between us ,so how does  this applie to us if at all...
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2010, 03:34:53 AM »



The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.

The recent official joint documents put out by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox constantly speak of:  "The two families agree...., the two families believe...., the two families recognise...."

The Oriental Orthodox ~ Branch Theorists?   Angry


Fr. A question..I always thought that branch theory meant there are different paths , or different beliefs to salvation....Though some Orthodox did separate  over traditions..the heart or core of our faith remains the same between us ,so how does  this applie to us if at all...

I don't agree with the "two families" language myself although I have the uttermost respect and love for the Oriental Orthodox and cannot praise their piety enough.

There is a thread here which mentions the "two families."

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28731.msg453193/topicseen.html#msg453193
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2010, 03:46:36 AM »



The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.

The recent official joint documents put out by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox constantly speak of:  "The two families agree...., the two families believe...., the two families recognise...."

The Oriental Orthodox ~ Branch Theorists?   Angry


Fr. A question..I always thought that branch theory meant there are different paths , or different beliefs to salvation....Though some Orthodox did separate  over traditions..the heart or core of our faith remains the same between us ,so how does  this applie to us if at all...

I don't agree with the "two families" language myself although I have the uttermost respect and love for the Oriental Orthodox and cannot praise their piety enough.

There is a thread here which mentions the "two families."

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28731.msg453193/topicseen.html#msg453193
Fr,
Sorry have to clarifiy ,im not asking about the Oriental  Orthodox ,,I mean the eastern Orthodox Churches.. that seperated..the core or heart of our faith remains the same...So how does the Branch theory apply to this seperation...Thank You...will wait for a answer...
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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2010, 04:00:57 AM »



The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.

The recent official joint documents put out by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox constantly speak of:  "The two families agree...., the two families believe...., the two families recognise...."

The Oriental Orthodox ~ Branch Theorists?   Angry


Fr. A question..I always thought that branch theory meant there are different paths , or different beliefs to salvation....Though some Orthodox did separate  over traditions..the heart or core of our faith remains the same between us ,so how does  this applie to us if at all...

No, you're talking about religious pluralism. That's the idea that different religions can all lead to redemption.

Branch Theory is the idea that various Christian groups can constitute the Church, even though they are not in visible communion with each other, so long as they have essentially the same faith.
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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2010, 04:11:29 AM »



The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.

The recent official joint documents put out by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox constantly speak of:  "The two families agree...., the two families believe...., the two families recognise...."

The Oriental Orthodox ~ Branch Theorists?   Angry


Fr. A question..I always thought that branch theory meant there are different paths , or different beliefs in christianty to salvation....Though some Orthodox did separate  over traditions..the heart or core of our faith remains the same between us ,so how does  this applie to us if at all...

No, you're talking about religious pluralism. That's the idea that different religions can all lead to redemption.

Branch Theory is the idea that various Christian groups can constitute the Church, even though they are not in visible communion with each other, so long as they have essentially the same faith.

But there not the same there's quite alot of differences between them though they call themselfs christians...Branch theory would apply more to them i would think ,than to the seperated eastern orthodox , Because the core of our faith still remains the same...
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« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2010, 04:37:32 AM »



The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.

The recent official joint documents put out by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox constantly speak of:  "The two families agree...., the two families believe...., the two families recognise...."

The Oriental Orthodox ~ Branch Theorists?   Angry


Fr. A question..I always thought that branch theory meant there are different paths , or different beliefs in christianty to salvation....Though some Orthodox did separate  over traditions..the heart or core of our faith remains the same between us ,so how does  this applie to us if at all...

No, you're talking about religious pluralism. That's the idea that different religions can all lead to redemption.

Branch Theory is the idea that various Christian groups can constitute the Church, even though they are not in visible communion with each other, so long as they have essentially the same faith.

But there not the same there's quite alot of differences between them though they call themselfs christians...Branch theory would apply more to them i would think ,than to the seperated eastern orthodox , Because the core of our faith still remains the same...

Branch Theorists of various forms do not think that the branches have fundamental differences in the nature of the faith.

But you overlooked part of my definition.

I actually said that believing the groups to hold the same faith is part of the Theory.

So what you are describing fits that definition.

The way you are talking, "schism" is really losing any traditional meaning.
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« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2010, 04:57:06 AM »



The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.

The recent official joint documents put out by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox constantly speak of:  "The two families agree...., the two families believe...., the two families recognise...."

The Oriental Orthodox ~ Branch Theorists?   Angry


Fr. A question..I always thought that branch theory meant there are different paths , or different beliefs in christianty to salvation....Though some Orthodox did separate  over traditions..the heart or core of our faith remains the same between us ,so how does  this applie to us if at all...

No, you're talking about religious pluralism. That's the idea that different religions can all lead to redemption.

Branch Theory is the idea that various Christian groups can constitute the Church, even though they are not in visible communion with each other, so long as they have essentially the same faith.

But there not the same there's quite alot of differences between them though they call themselfs christians...Branch theory would apply more to them i would think ,than to the seperated eastern orthodox , Because the core of our faith still remains the same...

There is  a wide variety of ways that the Church relates to schismatics.

Take the Serbian Church...

1.  It used its powers of binding and loosing to declare the Free Serbian Church to be utterly without any of the Mysteries - Baptism, Priesthood, Eucharist, Marriage - all non-existent.

2.  It has used the same powers in a much more lenient way with the schismatic Macedonian Orthodox Church.  In fact when I lived in Serbia, the priests for the Macedonian Orthodox Church were trained at Serbian seminaries.  These days the relationship has soured but still there is no denial that the Macedonians possess the sacred Mysteries.

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« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2010, 05:18:23 AM »



The "family squabbles" analogy to describe schisms is common rhetoric of Branch Theorists.

The recent official joint documents put out by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox constantly speak of:  "The two families agree...., the two families believe...., the two families recognise...."

The Oriental Orthodox ~ Branch Theorists?   Angry


Fr. A question..I always thought that branch theory meant there are different paths , or different beliefs in christianty to salvation....Though some Orthodox did separate  over traditions..the heart or core of our faith remains the same between us ,so how does  this applie to us if at all...

No, you're talking about religious pluralism. That's the idea that different religions can all lead to redemption.

Branch Theory is the idea that various Christian groups can constitute the Church, even though they are not in visible communion with each other, so long as they have essentially the same faith.

But there not the same there's quite alot of differences between them though they call themselfs christians...Branch theory would apply more to them i would think ,than to the seperated eastern orthodox , Because the core of our faith still remains the same...

There is  a wide variety of ways that the Church relates to schismatics.

Take the Serbian Church...

1.  It used its powers of binding and loosing to declare the Free Serbian Church to be utterly without any of the Mysteries - Baptism, Priesthood, Eucharist, Marriage - all non-existent.

2.  It has used the same powers in a much more lenient way with the schismatic Macedonian Orthodox Church.  In fact when I lived in Serbia, the priests for the Macedonian Orthodox Church were trained at Serbian seminaries.  These days the relationship has soured but still there is no denial that the Macedonians possess the sacred Mysteries.


Fr..
Thanks for the answer,But it brings more questions up though...Can a Bishop Bind another Bishop,I know that the title Patriarch is a administrative title like Metropolitan.but there still all bishops the same..Most if not all the seperations are caused by bishops ,so how can one bishop bind the seperated bishop...Hope it makes sense...
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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2010, 05:36:11 AM »

These are Synods and Sobors who defrock Bishops, not single Hierarchs. And they have right to do it.
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« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2010, 06:19:14 AM »

Fr..
Thanks for the answer,But it brings more questions up though...Can a Bishop Bind another Bishop,I know that the title Patriarch is a administrative title like Metropolitan.but there still all bishops the same..Most if not all the seperations are caused by bishops ,so how can one bishop bind the seperated bishop...Hope it makes sense...

Collegiality!
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« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2010, 07:53:27 AM »

There is  a wide variety of ways that the Church relates to schismatics.

Take the Serbian Church...

1.  It used its powers of binding and loosing to declare the Free Serbian Church to be utterly without any of the Mysteries - Baptism, Priesthood, Eucharist, Marriage - all non-existent.

2.  It has used the same powers in a much more lenient way with the schismatic Macedonian Orthodox Church.  In fact when I lived in Serbia, the priests for the Macedonian Orthodox Church were trained at Serbian seminaries.  These days the relationship has soured but still there is no denial that the Macedonians possess the sacred Mysteries.


In the Church, each person is under authority.  A lay person can be disciplined by their priest or bishop, a deacon or priest by their bishop, a bishop by the Synod of bishops to which he belongs, and one or more local churches by a Pan-Orthodox or Ecumenical Council.  In the case of the Greek Old Calendarists, when three bishops left the Church in Greece in 1935 to lead the Old Calendarists, these bishops were declared by the Church in Greece to be in schism and without grace in their Mysteries.  These bishops the same year reciprocated by declaring the State Church of Greece to be in schism and without grace.  One of these three Old Calendarist hierarchs, Met Chrysostom of Florina, went then to Jerusalem hoping to find that this local Church which was on the Old Calendar supported the actions of the Greek Old Calendarist bishops.  Met Chrysostom of Florina, however, was received in Jerusalem not as a bishop but rather as a simple monk.  Jerusalem recognized the authority of the New Calendar Church in Greece and consequently approved of their authority to declare the Old Calendarist bishops as schismatics.  Furthermore, in Jerusalem Met Chrysostom was informed that only a Pan-Orthodox Council, and not a simple declaration by three overzealous bishops, has the authority to condemn an entire local church as schismatic and without grace. 

That being said, if all of the “dialogues” and joint activities between Orthodox and heterodox actually results in something; if Orthodox bishops *actually* enter into communion with heretics without agreement in matters of Faith, many certainly will have to break communion with such false bishops just as St. Mark of Ephesus did *AFTER* the false union of Florence.  The bishops who reject such a false union will then cast out the apostate bishops and those remaining will be the true Church.  Until then, however, the reality of apostasy within the Church gives no one a license to lose faith and jump ship. 

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« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2010, 11:25:09 AM »

I am curious about how this works.  In the RC, as many of us have sadly seen, what the Bishops say goes ... as long as the Pope doesn't directly step in and overrule them.  Until recently, for example, a Bishop could permit or deny the Tridentine Mass in his diocese, and that was it - even if 99.9% of the laity wanted it, tough beans, The Bishop Has Spoken!

But I once asked a Greek Orthodox priest what would happen if their Bishop ordered "No more Greek in your Liturgies!", and he laughed and made a "finger slitting across the throat" gesture! Cheesy

So my question is:  is it possible Rome is negotiating with the wrong part of the Orthodox Church?  Should they perhaps be talking directly to the laity?  Because it sounds to me like it doesn't matter what your Bishops agree to, if the majority of the EO *people* don't agree!
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« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2010, 11:26:48 AM »

(P.S. If my post above is a derail, my apologies to the mods and please move it to a new thread if desired. Thanks! Cheesy )
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« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2010, 11:28:57 AM »

So my question is:  is it possible Rome is negotiating with the wrong part of the Orthodox Church?  Should they perhaps be talking directly to the laity?  Because it sounds to me like it doesn't matter what your Bishops agree to, if the majority of the EO *people* don't agree!

There are many strange things happening between Ukrainian Catholics UAOC and UOC KP in Ukraine.
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« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2010, 11:30:24 AM »

Micha, no offense, but in what way is that a response to my question?
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« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2010, 11:33:16 AM »

... Because it sounds to me like it doesn't matter what your Bishops agree to, if the majority of the EO *people* don't agree!

That is an incorrect understanding of Orthodoxy.  What the Bishop says, goes.

The church and priest have no authority without their bishop.

"follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to the deacons pay respect, as to God's commandment" — Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnans 8:1.
"He that honoureth the bishop is honoured of God; he that doeth aught without the knowledge of the bishop rendereth service to the devil" — Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnans 9:1.

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« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2010, 11:37:08 AM »

So my question is:  is it possible Rome is negotiating with the wrong part of the Orthodox Church?  Should they perhaps be talking directly to the laity?  Because it sounds to me like it doesn't matter what your Bishops agree to, if the majority of the EO *people* don't agree!

There are many strange things happening between Ukrainian Catholics UAOC and UOC KP in Ukraine.

That is what happens when folks pick a "nationality" over their Faith.  Another reason that while I pray for a canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine, I don't currently support the KP.
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