Mary, Queen of Heaven

[Anastasia1]

I have a Catholic Apologetics good that mentioned Mary was the Queen of Heaven referred to in Revelation. Is this how the Oriental Orthodox Church sees her as well?

[Salpy]

Could you tell us which passage in Revelation you are referring to?

[deusveritasest]

Could you tell us which passage in Revelation you are referring to?

Yes.

I'm sure that Mary is Queen of Heaven in some sense (something akin to "queen mother"). But that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what the particular Revelation passage is speaking of.

[Salpy]

Could this be a reference to the woman in Revelation 12, who had the moon beneath her feet?  I seem to recall hearing that the woman in that passage represented the Church.  I don't think we would see the woman in Revelation 12 as the Mother of God, since the woman in that passage seemed to be experiencing pain in childbirth.

[Papist]

Could this be a reference to the woman in Revelation 12, who had the moon beneath her feet?  I seem to recall hearing that the woman in that passage represented the Church.  I don't think we would see the woman in Revelation 12 as the Mother of God, since the woman in that passage seemed to be experiencing pain in childbirth.

Does it have to be literal birth pain, or can it possibly be the pain invovled in being the Mother of God ("and a sword shall pierce your heart too")?
And further, the woman literally appears to be Mary, since the woman is Christ's mother. Mary may be a symbol for the Church as well.

[theistgal]

Yes, is there any reason the Woman of Revelations can't symbolize both the Theotokos and Israel?

[Salpy]

Does it have to be literal birth pain, or can it possibly be the pain invovled in being the Mother of God ("and a sword shall pierce your heart too")?

That's an interesting interpretation.  I guess that could apply, although to me it just seems too specific to refer to anything but painful childbirth.

And further, the woman literally appears to be Mary, since the woman is Christ's mother. Mary may be a symbol for the Church as well.

I agree that with the exception of the painful childbirth the vision seems to be describing the Mother of God.  What I have heard, though, is that the woman in the vision is supposed to be the Church.  I'm just repeating something I have heard.  I wonder if others have heard this also, or if someone has a scholarly source, or something, that discusses it.

[Salpy]

Yes, is there any reason the Woman of Revelations can't symbolize both the Theotokos and Israel?

There is an old tradition that says the Mother of God did not experience pain when she gave birth to Christ.  I'm pretty sure this is a tradition of both the OO and EO Churches.  I assume the Catholics have the same tradition, but I could be wrong.  The woman in Revealtion 12 was experiencing pain in childbirth, so she therefore can't be the Mother of God.  Or so I have been told.   

[Papist]

Yes, is there any reason the Woman of Revelations can't symbolize both the Theotokos and Israel?

There is an old tradition that says the Mother of God did not experience pain when she gave birth to Christ.  I'm pretty sure this is a tradition of both the OO and EO Churches.  I assume the Catholics have the same tradition, but I could be wrong.  The woman in Revealtion 12 was experiencing pain in childbirth, so she therefore can't be the Mother of God.  Or so I have been told.   

We have the same tradition, which is why I thought that perhaps the pain symbolised the prophecy of Simeon.

[theistgal]

Yes, some (not all) RC's believe Mary didn't experience pain because of her Immaculate Conception - because as the "new Eve" she wasn't subject to the punishment for sin, including pain in childbirth.  Since the EO's and OO's don't believe in the IC, I'm interested to know why they think she didn't feel pain?

[Salpy]

I don't think it has anything to do with the Immaculate Conception.  I think it has to do with her virginity being preserved even during the bearing of Christ.  I really don't want to say more about that, as it gets into matters which are a bit delicate.  

Also, like you said, there is the idea of the Mother of God being the New Eve, whose obedience to God helped undo what Eve's disobedience brought upon us.  And of course Christ is the New Adam, who has saved us from the curse of Adam.  In that context, it makes sense that Christ's birth would not cause His mother pain, since He came into the world to undo the curse, which included painful childbirth.  At least that is how I've always seen it.

I'm sure there are those more educated in these matters than I am who could explain these things.  

[theistgal]

Yes, and I don't mean to derail the thread into a discussion of the  IC, just saying that's the explanation I was taught.

[CoptoGeek]

I was taught the Woman of Revelation 12 was a symbol for both The Church and The Virgin Mary.  In addition, Fr. Tadros Malaty states that "She is also a symbol of each believing soul".

THE WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN
REVELATION 12-14
This section is considered the core of Revelation; because in
it war is clearly declared between the defiled trinity (the dragon, the
beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth) and Jesus Christ,
symbolized in His church. Inspite of the bitterness and severity of
the war the Church, "the woman clothed with the Sun" remains
preserved in her Groom's hand.
1. The dragon resists the church: The woman clothed with
the Sun is the Church, who is lit by the Sun of Righteousness. The
moon under her feet is the group of saints who, although are
physically dead, are luminous like the moon. The twelve stars
around her head are the Lord's disciples. She gives birth to faith in
Christ and forms this faith in the lives of many people.
This woman is also Saint Mary who gave birth to Jesus
Christ. She is also a symbol of each believing soul, she who is serious
in her worship and her testimony to Christ so that He may take
residence in many souls.
The dragon resists the Church, wanting to devour the child,
i.e. wanting to destroy faith in Jesus Christ.
This dragon is fiery red because he is a murderer of people
(John 8:44). He has 7 heads i.e. is continuously thinking of fighting.
He has 10 horns, i.e. many authorities will submit to him and work
for his kingdom. His tail draws a third of the stars of heaven; similarly
the Antichrist will mislead a third of the believers. Perhaps
here this refers to the angels who were deceived by Satan, and this
shows how dangerous he is! He destroyed angels and wants to
destroy faith in Jesus Christ in the life of the whole church.
Heaven does not stand silently watching the war of the Anti-
Christ, where Satan acts, but the Archangel and his angels fight
Satan and his demons and throw them out of heaven. They shall
have no right to accuse the believers before God. This is how the
52
heavenly creatures participate with the Lord, the Savior, in His love
for humanity.
Let us sing happily for there is no place for Satan and his
demons in our hearts as long as hearts are heaven. Woe to those
who made their hearts dust and earth, to which the devil is cast!
The woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly into
the wilderness where God shall support her three times and a half
[14], i.e. during the time of the Antichrist. The two wings are the
two prophet witnesses who are sent to her by the Lord, or they are
faith and love for each believer, or loving God and loving our
neighbour, or eagerness for heavenly things and indifference
towards temporal things.
The serpent spewed a flood out of his mouth to drown the
woman; this flood is the blasphemy coming out of the mouth of the
Antichrist.

From "An Introduction to the Book of Revelation"  by Fr. Tadros Malaty, pp 51-52

http://www.coepaonline.org/downDetails.php?nav=downloads&cat_id=1&subcat_id=23&thrdcat_id=48

I love it when we can all be right!

[ialmisry]

Yes, is there any reason the Woman of Revelations can't symbolize both the Theotokos and Israel?

There is an old tradition that says the Mother of God did not experience pain when she gave birth to Christ.  I'm pretty sure this is a tradition of both the OO and EO Churches.  I assume the Catholics have the same tradition, but I could be wrong.  The woman in Revealtion 12 was experiencing pain in childbirth, so she therefore can't be the Mother of God.  Or so I have been told.   

More than Tradition, it is Prophecy:
1 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool; what is the house which you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest? 2 All these things my hand has made, and so all these things are mine, says the LORD. But this is the man to whom I will look, he that is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word. 3 "He who slaughters an ox is like him who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like him who breaks a dog's neck; he who presents a cereal offering, like him who offers swine's blood; he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like him who blesses an idol. These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations; 4 I also will choose affliction for them, and bring their fears upon them; because, when I called, no one answered, when I spoke they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes, and chose that in which I did not delight." 5 Hear the word of the LORD, you who tremble at his word: "Your brethren who hate you and cast you out for my name's sake have said, 'Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy'; but it is they who shall be put to shame. 6 "Hark, an uproar from the city! A voice from the temple! The voice of the LORD, rendering recompense to his enemies! 7 "Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son. 8 Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her sons. 9 Shall I bring to the birth and not cause to bring forth? says the LORD; shall I, who cause to bring forth, shut the womb? says your God. 10 "Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice with her in joy, all you who mourn over her; 11 that you may suck and be satisfied with her consoling breasts; that you may drink deeply with delight from the abundance of her glory." 12 For thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will extend prosperity to her like a river, and the wealth of the nations like an overflowing stream; and you shall suck, you shall be carried upon her hip, and dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 You shall see, and your heart shall rejoice; your bones shall flourish like the grass; and it shall be known that the hand of the LORD is with his servants, and his indignation is against his enemies.

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Oriental Orthodox Discussion (Moderator: Salpy) > Topic: Mary, Queen of Heaven