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theistgal
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« Reply #90 on: September 15, 2010, 11:59:15 PM »

So it's just us Catholics you dislike.  Good to know.
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« Reply #91 on: September 16, 2010, 12:03:43 AM »

Am I the only one who sees a difference between "false" and "mistaken"?

And stashko, you forgot Quakers. Grin

The non-Orthodox Christian religions are false, the people who follow them are mistaken. That's the difference I think you're getting at.

I agree. I don't think anyone here is berating adherents to Judaism as human beings. That would be bigotry. However we are saying that their religion is false. Same with Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Calvinism for that matter.

I don't understand why anyone would be uncomfortable with that prospect. Christianity is the fulfillment of Second Temple Judaism and what came before it, it's true. That doesn't make modern Rabbinical Judaism any more salvific than Islam, Hinduism, et al.

Even pre-Christian Judaism, as Jonathan noted, was only salvific by virtue of Christ. One of the Fathers writes eloquently about how Christ's blood was typologically in the Jewish temple sacrifices, and that is why the sacrifices could atone for their sins. The scapegoat was a type of Christ, and the sins were taken away. Moses' staff was a type of the Cross, and the waters parted. None of this occurred by its own virtue, but only because of what they pointed to. Modern Judaism points to nothing.

If people want to be saved, they must come to the Father by Christ, and that's the end of it. I mean no offense by that, I'm just stating facts. Jews are no more saved by Judaism than Muslims are by Islam or Zoroastrians by Zoroastrianism.
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« Reply #92 on: September 16, 2010, 12:12:41 AM »

So it's just us Catholics you dislike.  Good to know.


Catholic Don't even Worship the same Holy Trinity as we do....They Honor a Mary they elevated to Goddess Status mostly based on the questionable  apparitions.....They elevated a Fallable man to Infallable ,whats to like about it where not the same.... Grin
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 12:17:56 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2010, 12:16:29 AM »

That is just untrue, stashko, and HIGHLY insulting - we do NOT worship Mary as a Goddess.   Please retract that falsehood.
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« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2010, 12:21:17 AM »

That is just untrue, stashko, and HIGHLY insulting - we do NOT worship Mary as a Goddess.   Please retract that falsehood.

I Said Elevated not worship,Who Knows that may be in your furture yet.....It hard to tell, things are in Flux in the Catholic Church Grin
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 12:22:21 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2010, 12:25:57 AM »

We do NOT consider Mary, the Theotokos, as a "Goddess", stashko, and that is NOT "in flux".

Must you lie about other religions in order to promote your own?  Can't Holy Orthodoxy stand on its own merits, rather than simply as an alternative to the hated RC's?
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« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2010, 12:37:00 AM »

"And the plot thins." -- David Addison   Embarrassed

I think I came in at the door, then.  Sad
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« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2010, 12:44:43 AM »

Yo! people!  You who are judging the Catholics and the Jews.  You are assuming the place of the LORD.  It is the LORD who judges.
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« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2010, 12:58:11 AM »

Yo! people!  You who are judging the Catholics and the Jews.  You are assuming the place of the LORD.  It is the LORD who judges.

You would be right to rebuke us if we were judging them for their personal sins. God forbid we should do such a thing! But we have a duty to our Lord to defend Him and His Gospel from the lies of the devil, which are manifested in the false beliefs of the Catholics, Jews and other unbelievers.

In these last days, the defense of the truth has been sadly left to unworthy and wretched sinners like myself, who lack all love and piety. I pray that there will be true saints who can take up the fight for Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #99 on: September 16, 2010, 01:01:10 AM »

Yo! people!  You who are judging the Catholics and the Jews.  You are assuming the place of the LORD.  It is the LORD who judges.


If we  Are seeing our Brothers heading into a abyss ,Don't we have the right to tell them what we think the cause is.....Plus if your under His Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch I can understand where your coming from ..After all He is Courting The Latins at the moment.... Grin
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2010, 01:15:46 AM »

Yo! people!  You who are judging the Catholics and the Jews.  You are assuming the place of the LORD.  It is the LORD who judges.

You would be right to rebuke us if we were judging them for their personal sins. God forbid we should do such a thing! But we have a duty to our Lord to defend Him and His Gospel from the lies of the devil, which are manifested in the false beliefs of the Catholics, Jews and other unbelievers.

In these last days, the defense of the truth has been sadly left to unworthy and wretched sinners like myself, who lack all love and piety. I pray that there will be true saints who can take up the fight for Orthodoxy.

In my considered opinion a person who lacks all love and piety should not be trying, and indeed is quite incapable of discerning the truth or of defending the truth.    The soul without love and without piety is a dark nest which delights the evil one. I earnestly recommend you to seek spiritual guidance.
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« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2010, 01:17:47 AM »

  The thing is, I have listened in person to my priest and over the Internet I have listened to priests and even bishops speak the truth, and I have read scholarly works.  All of the speakers and authors were willing to state the truth, but they had enough of an element of humility that they left judgment in the hands of the LORD.
    When I was a protestant and visited Liturgy, I did not convert to Orthodoxy because of some clever protestant bashing in a homily or because of other parishoners bashing protestants during conversation after Liturgy.  My little Church let Orthodoxy speak for itself.  Speak the truth, but do not judge others.  Bend a little. Give the LORD room to work.
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« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2010, 02:38:10 AM »

Yo! people!  You who are judging the Catholics and the Jews.  You are assuming the place of the LORD.  It is the LORD who judges.

You would be right to rebuke us if we were judging them for their personal sins. God forbid we should do such a thing! But we have a duty to our Lord to defend Him and His Gospel from the lies of the devil, which are manifested in the false beliefs of the Catholics, Jews and other unbelievers.

In these last days, the defense of the truth has been sadly left to unworthy and wretched sinners like myself, who lack all love and piety. I pray that there will be true saints who can take up the fight for Orthodoxy.

In my considered opinion a person who lacks all love and piety should not be trying, and indeed is quite incapable of discerning the truth or of defending the truth.    The soul without love and without piety is a dark nest which delights the evil one. I earnestly recommend you to seek spiritual guidance.


Thank you, Fr Ambrose. I will indeed seek guidance. But, I humbly submit that if it is impossible to know true dogma without being perfected in love and piety, then no one can know the truth, because there is only One who is All-loving and All-good.
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« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2010, 03:55:31 AM »

Yo! people!  You who are judging the Catholics and the Jews.  You are assuming the place of the LORD.  It is the LORD who judges.

You would be right to rebuke us if we were judging them for their personal sins. God forbid we should do such a thing! But we have a duty to our Lord to defend Him and His Gospel from the lies of the devil, which are manifested in the false beliefs of the Catholics, Jews and other unbelievers.

In these last days, the defense of the truth has been sadly left to unworthy and wretched sinners like myself, who lack all love and piety. I pray that there will be true saints who can take up the fight for Orthodoxy.

In my considered opinion a person who lacks all love and piety should not be trying, and indeed is quite incapable of discerning the truth or of defending the truth.    The soul without love and without piety is a dark nest which delights the evil one. I earnestly recommend you to seek spiritual guidance.


Thank you, Fr Ambrose. I will indeed seek guidance. But, I humbly submit that if it is impossible to know true dogma without being perfected in love and piety, then no one can know the truth, because there is only One who is All-loving and All-good.

I am glad that you will seek help.  You must realise that nobody will turn for guidance in the faith to a man who says himself that he has no love in his heart nor any piety.  They will run away, and quite rightly.

(Corinthians 13): "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and I have not love, I am as sounding as brass or a tingling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge - and though I have all faith so that I could move mountains, and I have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have no love, it profiteth me nothing."
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« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2010, 07:33:22 AM »

Good for you Jonathan and Stashko. Continue preaching the truth (Orthodox Christianity). I commend both of you for having the courage to speak the truth about false religions as well.
  We must all understand that Orthodox Christianity is the original Christian religion, all other churches (united church, protestant, and especially roman catholic etc etc) came later and are false religions. I am new to this site and i'm not sure how "sensitive" people are, but in the coming days/weeks i will post my true thoughts and opinions about the roman catholic church as well as the other so called Christian non Orthodox churches.
  As far as Judaism is concerned, after Jesus died on the cross, the old testament was fulfilled and the saints of the old testament were taken away, therefore the only true religion after that point until now and until Jesus returns is Orthodox Christianity and the New Testament.
  Once again, i don't know how "sensitive" people are yet on this site, but religions like islam, hinduism, sikhism,  etc are no different than scientology, false and made up.
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« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2010, 09:06:42 AM »

Christ is love. Where is the love of some super-dogmatic people here?
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« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2010, 11:10:04 AM »

Yo! people!  You who are judging the Catholics and the Jews.  You are assuming the place of the LORD.  It is the LORD who judges.

You would be right to rebuke us if we were judging them for their personal sins. God forbid we should do such a thing! But we have a duty to our Lord to defend Him and His Gospel from the lies of the devil, which are manifested in the false beliefs of the Catholics, Jews and other unbelievers.

In these last days, the defense of the truth has been sadly left to unworthy and wretched sinners like myself, who lack all love and piety. I pray that there will be true saints who can take up the fight for Orthodoxy.

In my considered opinion a person who lacks all love and piety should not be trying, and indeed is quite incapable of discerning the truth or of defending the truth.    The soul without love and without piety is a dark nest which delights the evil one. I earnestly recommend you to seek spiritual guidance.


Thank you, Fr Ambrose. I will indeed seek guidance. But, I humbly submit that if it is impossible to know true dogma without being perfected in love and piety, then no one can know the truth, because there is only One who is All-loving and All-good.

I am glad that you will seek help.  You must realise that nobody will turn for guidance in the faith to a man who says himself that he has no love in his heart nor any piety.  They will run away, and quite rightly.

(Corinthians 13): "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and I have not love, I am as sounding as brass or a tingling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge - and though I have all faith so that I could move mountains, and I have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have no love, it profiteth me nothing."

So I should boast about my love and piety if I want to persuade people? Is that what you are saying?
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« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2010, 11:28:33 AM »

Thans for that warning, spartan, being super-sensitive, I will make a note to avoid any threads you start. Wink
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« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2010, 12:06:40 PM »

Thans for that warning, spartan, being super-sensitive, I will make a note to avoid any threads you start. Wink

His post seemed foreboding, like he's shortly to become the anti-Alfred Persson. :-)
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« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2010, 12:17:21 PM »

Thans for that warning, spartan, being super-sensitive, I will make a note to avoid any threads you start. Wink

His post seemed foreboding, like he's shortly to become the anti-Alfred Persson. :-)

I'm sure they'd be an entertaining pair in a thread together.  angel
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« Reply #110 on: September 16, 2010, 12:59:05 PM »

Christ is love. Where is the love of some super-dogmatic people here?

Saying that non-Christian religious systems are false is super-dogmatic and unloving? It's a fact. To say that is no more cruel than to tell someone they have a growth on the back of their head that needs to be looked at.

This is from Fr. Stephen Damick's Ancient Faith Radio podcast "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy". He puts it eloquently:

- - - - - - - - - -

In most areas of life, we are concerned with the truth. A cashier has to know how much change she is given. A nurse has to apply just the right amount of medication to a patient. A mathematician checks and double-checks his proofs. A jury listens to all the facts to sort out the truth in a trial. A history teacher has to get the names and dates right. A scientist publishes her work for peer review to ensure everyone gets the same results. In all of these cases and more, what’s important is not opinion; rather, it is truth.

Yet, it seems that when it comes to questions of religion and spirituality and the accompanying moral questions, we become relativists. Instead of asking who God really is, we ask, “Who is God to me?” Instead of asking what it means for God to become a man, we suggest, “That’s okay for some people to believe if they want.” Instead of asking whether God expects something of us, we judge religious expectations by what we ourselves want. The pursuit of objectivity goes out the window, and subjectivity reigns. . . .

It has become unfashionable in our time to speak as though a particular belief is true  and another is false. And yet even within my lifetime, I recall quite clearly how many religious groups in our culture used to think of their own beliefs as true, and then logically conclude that any other beliefs were therefore false.

Today however, this conclusion—and especially speaking publicly about it—is seen as not being loving (a word now used to mean nice). Indeed, in our time a public disagreement about religion is sometimes considered offensive. Living in an age of political correctness, we are given new pieces of cultural theology to profess:

All religions are basically the same.
What matters is living a good life.
We all worship the same God.
Religion is a private matter.
Don’t impose your beliefs on others.
No religion has everything right.
We’ll find out what’s true when we get to heaven.


These kinds of statements have one common assumption behind them: that beliefs about God and the ultimate nature of reality are not very important. That is why they should not be discussed publicly. That is why their details do not really matter. That is why we should not try to win people over to our faith. There is no such thing as truth. Everything is relative—except, perhaps, that everything is relative.

Yet for nearly everything else in life—whether it is politics, healthcare, or even the scoring records of your favorite football team—we demand seriousness, detail, and accuracy. Distracted by such transient things as these, our culture has successfully ignored a basic syllogism:

If there really is a God, then who he is and what he might want from us are more important than anything else in the universe.

As believers, we are not in the nice business. We are in the truth business. The purpose of this series is to examine the differences between the faith of the Orthodox Christian Church and the faiths of other Christian communions and of non-Christians.

Obviously, as an Orthodox priest, it is my belief that the Orthodox Christian faith is uniquely true. I would not be Orthodox if I did not believe it was the truth revealed by God in his son Jesus Christ. My faith is such that, if I encountered a part of the Orthodox faith that made no sense to me or struck me as incorrect, then it is I who needs to be reformed, not the Orthodox Church.

Indeed, this is the view of all classical, traditional religions, rather than the modern consumer-style understanding of faith which is popular in our culture—that each person is the arbiter of what is true and false, that he can pick and choose what bits of spirituality and belief he likes from a sort of religious buffet.

The nature of truth, however, is that it is true, no matter what anyone says about it. In the face of truth, there is no opinion. Most people already believe this, but do not often apply it to the question that matters most: who is God and what does he want from me?

There is good and there is evil. There is truth and there is falsehood. These basic assumptions, based on our own everyday experience, should inform all of our thoughts and actions regarding what is ultimately true. . . .

Here is a fundamental truth about all religious practice: what you believe and what you do make a difference. If this is true, then we must also accept that if you change what you believe and what you do, you will get different results.

This is true of everything in life. My brother is a chemical engineer. My sister is a biologist. (You may wonder what happened to me.) They know this to be true. If you do not believe them, ask a doctor. Ask a physicist, ask a psychologist, ask a brick layer, ask a janitor. They will all tell you that what you believe and what you do make a difference. If you change those things, you will get different results.

What concerns me is that we often do not apply this basic principle to what matters most in human life. In a religious context, this fundamental truth means different religions—because they believe differently and practice differently—will yield different results.

Sometimes those different results are all put under one label like salvation. But what does it mean to be saved? To a Hindu practicing yoga, salvation means release from the physical body and being absorbed into the oblivion of the universe; the annihilation of individual personhood in Nirvana. I guarantee that is not what salvation means to a Baptist. But what a Baptist means by salvation and what an Orthodox Christian means by it are not the same thing either. As such, the members of those different faiths have different methods of trying to get where they want to go.

Furthermore, because there exists truth and falsehood, and because most religions have traditionally claimed that their faith was true and that others are at least somewhat false, that means that some religious believers are fundamentally mistaken about their beliefs and practices. This means they are not going to get the results that they think they will. . . .

Some false doctrines about [God] can cause unimaginable spiritual destruction. Others are of lesser effect. But all of them, to one degree or another, take us away from a true, pure knowledge of the only true God. That will affect how and whether we receive his glory, and how we experience him in the next life.

Living a moral life according to the law of God is indeed critical for life in Christ, but it is not enough. Religion is not just ethics. We must know God for who he truly is. This is why doctrine matters.

- - - - - - - - - -

How loving is it to say, "Your religion has truth in it; anyway, don't think about it"? Yes, we must be kind and decent people, not cruel or mean, but to imply as some here have that calling the religions themselves (not the adherents) false is somehow unchristian is very strange to me. Christianity is not a pluralist religion.

We cannot say any individual adherent to a false religion will not be saved (in spite of their religion), however, and I don't think anybody here has. But it's hardly unloving to say a non-Christian religion is false.
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« Reply #111 on: September 16, 2010, 01:26:48 PM »

Actually, I have listened to the whole podcast series before and it sounded much more friendly than this discussion.
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« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2010, 01:50:10 PM »

Yes, non-Christian religions are false. Christian confessions outside of Orthodoxy are gravely mistaken. But effective missionizing requires calling non-Christians to recognize the prefigurements of Christ in their own spiritual reflection as much as it requires denouncing heresies. Look at St Paul's speech on Mars Hill, where he could have simply gone on about how the Greek deities are demons, but instead said that so far the Greeks were only getting one side of the story, but now he'll proclaim the glory of Christ that was hidden to them.
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« Reply #113 on: September 16, 2010, 02:24:58 PM »

Neither was it necessary for all Jews to hold the Gospel valuable.

Huh
That is, some Jews rejected Jesus; other Jesus accepted Jesus (and, a bit later, the Gospels).

It's not the case that one religion totally replaces its predecessor. We can still have reptiles even after birds evolve from reptiles. (By the way, I'm not comparing any religion to either reptiles or birds. Roll Eyes)


Well, there has only ever been and only ever will be one TRUE religion. The Jews who accepted Jesus Christ were following the true religion; the Jews who rejected Him, the false.

If Judaism is false then much of Christianity is false to. The disagreement is over the spiritual identity of Jesus as the Messiah. But the very idea of a "Messiah" is part of the Jewish religion, which apparently you share, like it or not .

Is the idea of One God false too? How about how we were created ( Genesis), false too???  Etc.
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« Reply #114 on: September 16, 2010, 02:48:46 PM »

Neither was it necessary for all Jews to hold the Gospel valuable.

Huh
That is, some Jews rejected Jesus; other Jesus accepted Jesus (and, a bit later, the Gospels).

It's not the case that one religion totally replaces its predecessor. We can still have reptiles even after birds evolve from reptiles. (By the way, I'm not comparing any religion to either reptiles or birds. Roll Eyes)


Well, there has only ever been and only ever will be one TRUE religion. The Jews who accepted Jesus Christ were following the true religion; the Jews who rejected Him, the false.

If Judaism is false then much of Christianity is false to. The disagreement is over the spiritual identity of Jesus as the Messiah. But the very idea of a "Messiah" is part of the Jewish religion, which apparently you share, like it or not .

Is the idea of One God false too? How about how we were created ( Genesis), false too???  Etc.


The Jews who ACCEPTED Christ were following the true religion, because the TRUE Judaism of the Old Testament DEPENDED on the FAITH and HOPE in the MESSIAH (Hebrew for CHRIST) and the RESURRECTION. THEREFORE those who accepted the Messiah/Christ WHEN HE CAME IN REALITY and WHEN HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD IN REALITY, were continuing the true faith of their fathers, because they ACCEPTED the Messiah and ACCEPTED the Resurrection. Those who DENIED Christ DENIED the Messiah, DENIED the Resurrection, and therefore DENIED their own faith!

Take home message: THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN TRUE AND FALSE JUDAISM!!! The Judaism YOU are promoting, the Judaism of the rabbis and Jews who rejected Christ, is FALSE. The Judaism I am promoting, the Judaism of the Prophets, which our Lord came to fulfill, and which now exists in its fullness as ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY, is the TRUE Judaism.

I'm sorry for shouting, but sometimes I think you're hard of hearing.
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« Reply #115 on: September 16, 2010, 03:00:15 PM »

Hi Marc1152,

You wrote:

If Judaism is false then much of Christianity is false to. The disagreement is over the spiritual identity of Jesus as the Messiah. But the very idea of a "Messiah" is part of the Jewish religion, which apparently you share, like it or not .
Is the idea of One God false too? How about how we were created ( Genesis), false too???  Etc.[/color]



After Jesus was killed, the old testemant was fulfilled and the saints of the old testament were saved. Then came Christianity. And yes, the Messiah was part of the Jewish religion, but unfortunately he was rejected by many and ultimately killed.
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« Reply #116 on: September 16, 2010, 03:31:24 PM »

Neither was it necessary for all Jews to hold the Gospel valuable.

Huh
That is, some Jews rejected Jesus; other Jesus accepted Jesus (and, a bit later, the Gospels).

It's not the case that one religion totally replaces its predecessor. We can still have reptiles even after birds evolve from reptiles. (By the way, I'm not comparing any religion to either reptiles or birds. Roll Eyes)


Well, there has only ever been and only ever will be one TRUE religion. The Jews who accepted Jesus Christ were following the true religion; the Jews who rejected Him, the false.

If Judaism is false then much of Christianity is false to. The disagreement is over the spiritual identity of Jesus as the Messiah. But the very idea of a "Messiah" is part of the Jewish religion, which apparently you share, like it or not .

Is the idea of One God false too? How about how we were created ( Genesis), false too???  Etc.


The Jews who ACCEPTED Christ were following the true religion, because the TRUE Judaism of the Old Testament DEPENDED on the FAITH and HOPE in the MESSIAH (Hebrew for CHRIST) and the RESURRECTION. THEREFORE those who accepted the Messiah/Christ WHEN HE CAME IN REALITY and WHEN HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD IN REALITY, were continuing the true faith of their fathers, because they ACCEPTED the Messiah and ACCEPTED the Resurrection. Those who DENIED Christ DENIED the Messiah, DENIED the Resurrection, and therefore DENIED their own faith!

Take home message: THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN TRUE AND FALSE JUDAISM!!! The Judaism YOU are promoting, the Judaism of the rabbis and Jews who rejected Christ, is FALSE. The Judaism I am promoting, the Judaism of the Prophets, which our Lord came to fulfill, and which now exists in its fullness as ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY, is the TRUE Judaism.

I'm sorry for shouting, but sometimes I think you're hard of hearing.

I think you  need to learn how to read for content. Didn't I just say the disagreement is over the identity of the Messiah?   Yes/No


That is the pivotal question. The rest of your formulation is ignorant. You cant label ALL Jewish beliefs false with a broad brush because Christianity shares most of them. Which part of this do you still not understand ?

If Judaism was wholly false, why was there any debate among the apostles about remaining a Jewish Sect vs converting Gentiles?

Think it over.   
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« Reply #117 on: September 16, 2010, 03:34:09 PM »

Yes, non-Christian religions are false. Christian confessions outside of Orthodoxy are gravely mistaken. But effective missionizing requires calling non-Christians to recognize the prefigurements of Christ in their own spiritual reflection as much as it requires denouncing heresies. Look at St Paul's speech on Mars Hill, where he could have simply gone on about how the Greek deities are demons, but instead said that so far the Greeks were only getting one side of the story, but now he'll proclaim the glory of Christ that was hidden to them.

I was not aware that we were missionizing here in this thread. I thought this was internal family shop talk. I agree that it would be wrong to walk up to a Jew and say "You follow a false religion". Perhaps we're coming from different contexts.

My greater concern is those who seem to have difficulty saying any religion is false, despite the fact that both religions are aware of, and actively reject, the only God there actually is.  

And I am not so sure it's the same thing, in any case. Both modern Judaism and Islam are aware of Christianity's existence, and dispute it. This is because they both came into play after Christianity. The Greeks of St Paul's day did not know of Christianity. Obviously that's not an excuse for us not to missionize, but it does change things a bit from the example.  
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« Reply #118 on: September 16, 2010, 03:41:06 PM »

Neither was it necessary for all Jews to hold the Gospel valuable.

Huh
That is, some Jews rejected Jesus; other Jesus accepted Jesus (and, a bit later, the Gospels).

It's not the case that one religion totally replaces its predecessor. We can still have reptiles even after birds evolve from reptiles. (By the way, I'm not comparing any religion to either reptiles or birds. Roll Eyes)


Well, there has only ever been and only ever will be one TRUE religion. The Jews who accepted Jesus Christ were following the true religion; the Jews who rejected Him, the false.

If Judaism is false then much of Christianity is false to. The disagreement is over the spiritual identity of Jesus as the Messiah. But the very idea of a "Messiah" is part of the Jewish religion, which apparently you share, like it or not .

Is the idea of One God false too? How about how we were created ( Genesis), false too???  Etc.


The Jews who ACCEPTED Christ were following the true religion, because the TRUE Judaism of the Old Testament DEPENDED on the FAITH and HOPE in the MESSIAH (Hebrew for CHRIST) and the RESURRECTION. THEREFORE those who accepted the Messiah/Christ WHEN HE CAME IN REALITY and WHEN HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD IN REALITY, were continuing the true faith of their fathers, because they ACCEPTED the Messiah and ACCEPTED the Resurrection. Those who DENIED Christ DENIED the Messiah, DENIED the Resurrection, and therefore DENIED their own faith!

Take home message: THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN TRUE AND FALSE JUDAISM!!! The Judaism YOU are promoting, the Judaism of the rabbis and Jews who rejected Christ, is FALSE. The Judaism I am promoting, the Judaism of the Prophets, which our Lord came to fulfill, and which now exists in its fullness as ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY, is the TRUE Judaism.

I'm sorry for shouting, but sometimes I think you're hard of hearing.

I think you  need to learn how to read for content. Didn't I just say the disagreement is over the identity of the Messiah?   Yes/No


That is the pivotal question. The rest of your formulation is ignorant. You cant label ALL Jewish beliefs false with a broad brush because Christianity shares most of them. Which part of this do you still not understand ?

If Judaism was wholly false, why was there any debate among the apostles about remaining a Jewish Sect vs converting Gentiles?

Think it over.   

Judaism is not wholly false by itself. But next to the fullness of Christ it is false. When Judaism was all
God had revealed, it was the truth, but when Christ came it passed away.

And inany case, Judaism as Christ knew it ceased to exist. Modern Judaism is a farcical making-do with the destruction of the Temple and the scattering of the Jews throught the world-- which God allowed because his temple was now the Church and Israel was now Christians.
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« Reply #119 on: September 16, 2010, 04:04:03 PM »

There's nothing wrong with saying another religion is false.  There IS, however, something wrong with saying false things about those other religions in order to bolster your own religion.  For example:  saying that Roman Catholics worship Mary as a Goddess and place her on the same level as the HolyTrinity.

 If you're going to criticize my church, at least criticize what it *actually teaches*!!
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« Reply #120 on: September 16, 2010, 05:20:46 PM »

There's nothing wrong with saying another religion is false.  There IS, however, something wrong with saying false things about those other religions in order to bolster your own religion.  For example:  saying that Roman Catholics worship Mary as a Goddess and place her on the same level as the HolyTrinity.

 If you're going to criticize my church, at least criticize what it *actually teaches*!!



It was said here First and i believe it  Grin  The Marian Apparitions: Divine Intervention or Delusion?.....http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx
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« Reply #121 on: September 16, 2010, 06:21:06 PM »

There's nothing wrong with saying another religion is false.  There IS, however, something wrong with saying false things about those other religions in order to bolster your own religion.  For example:  saying that Roman Catholics worship Mary as a Goddess and place her on the same level as the HolyTrinity.

 If you're going to criticize my church, at least criticize what it *actually teaches*!!

This I agree with. Such talk, even if hyperbole, is not helpful.
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« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2010, 07:02:32 PM »

stashko, seriously, your witness here pushes me away from, *not* towards, Orthodoxy.  If that's your intention, congratulations.
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« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2010, 07:16:52 PM »

stashko, seriously, your witness here pushes me away from, *not* towards, Orthodoxy.  If that's your intention, congratulations.

Regardless of Stachko's tact, or lack thereof, if your heart is truly open to the Truth then it will lead you to Orthodoxy. As a former Byzantine Catholic myself, I know it is hard to hear bad caricatures of Catholics, but Orthodoxy is where I found true Catholicism
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« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2010, 08:56:19 PM »

Yes, non-Christian religions are false. Christian confessions outside of Orthodoxy are gravely mistaken. But effective missionizing requires calling non-Christians to recognize the prefigurements of Christ in their own spiritual reflection as much as it requires denouncing heresies. Look at St Paul's speech on Mars Hill, where he could have simply gone on about how the Greek deities are demons, but instead said that so far the Greeks were only getting one side of the story, but now he'll proclaim the glory of Christ that was hidden to them.

I was not aware that we were missionizing here in this thread. I thought this was internal family shop talk. I agree that it would be wrong to walk up to a Jew and say "You follow a false religion". Perhaps we're coming from different contexts.

My greater concern is those who seem to have difficulty saying any religion is false, despite the fact that both religions are aware of, and actively reject, the only God there actually is.  

And I am not so sure it's the same thing, in any case. Both modern Judaism and Islam are aware of Christianity's existence, and dispute it. This is because they both came into play after Christianity. The Greeks of St Paul's day did not know of Christianity. Obviously that's not an excuse for us not to missionize, but it does change things a bit from the example.  

I am pretty certain that Judaism pre-dates Christianity..Just an FYI Smiley

And the Judaism beleived during the time of Jesus is the same religion as it is now. It's just that many of the factions and sects were killed off and we were left only with one or two forms. So no, there are no Sadducees or Essines left, But there are Pharisees left of the type that Jesus made common cause with and others that his strongly opposed. It's complicated just like Christianity has been complicated by the rise and fall of various factions, sects and heresies. 

There is a pretty good book put out by the Karaites ( a Jewish Sect) called :   
 
"The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus" by Nehemia Gordon
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« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2010, 09:10:32 PM »

stashko, seriously, your witness here pushes me away from, *not* towards, Orthodoxy.  If that's your intention, congratulations.

Regardless of Stachko's tact, or lack thereof, if your heart is truly open to the Truth then it will lead you to Orthodoxy. As a former Byzantine Catholic myself, I know it is hard to hear bad caricatures of Catholics, but Orthodoxy is where I found true Catholicism

I  agree ,,If she is truly Interested in Holy Orthodoxy Nothing i say or what Orthers say would sway her ......A discusson forum is just that , one Reads all kinds of opinions......She just happen to not like mine...... Grin
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« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2010, 09:24:44 PM »


There is a pretty good book put out by the Karaites ( a Jewish Sect) called :   
 
"The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus" by Nehemia Gordon
Nehemia speaks:

Quote
I had been invited to speak at a Christian conference when the organizer received a dire warning from a local Christian pastor. The pastor proclaimed that as a "non-believing Jew" I was operating under the control of the "spirit of Antichrist". When I heard this I thought the pastor meant it metaphorically, but it turns out he meant there was a literal demonic spirit that was influencing my every move. He explained that it was nothing against me personally but all "non-believing Jews" are under the spirit of Antichrist. Boasting against the root is one thing, but this amounts to cursing the root.

Some of my fellow Jews reading this are probably thinking: "So why bother, Nehemia! Let the goyim languish in their ignorance." My answer is that there are countless Christians out there who want to understand their faith in its original historical, cultural, and linguistic context. Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew who spoke Hebrew and lived as a Jew among Jews. It just so happens that God has blessed me with a knowledge of ancient Judaism and ancient Hebrew and I feel compelled to share this information with those with those who need it, even if I disagree with them on important matters of faith. The Torah teaches us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves which means to treat others as we ourselves want to be treated. I know that if I lacked vital knowledge I would want someone who had this knowledge to share it with me. I must, therefore, share the knowledge I have with those who need it. I am not saying I know everything or that I have all the answers.
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« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2010, 09:25:43 PM »

There are two ways of looking at Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Islam, etc.

1.  The first one is to start from the verse of the Psalms "All the gods of the pagans are demons."

2.  The second is to understand that it is God Himself who has planted in man the need to worship Him.   In the places outside the countries of divine revelation (first Israel, and now the Christian countries) this God-given urge took many forms.  Some of the religions which were formed were mild and benevolent (Buddhism) and some were militant (Islam) and some (thank God, now extinct) required such ghastly things as human sacrifice.  And in the last example we can see the demons at work, perverting the human need to worship.


Man is created to worship God, and man will find for himself the ways to satisfy the need God has put so deep in his heart.  He can no more help worshipping than he can eating.  Without divine revelation he is not able to create true and pure religion and so he gets parts of it wrong.
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« Reply #128 on: September 16, 2010, 09:28:31 PM »


After Jesus was killed, the old testemant was fulfilled and the saints of the old testament were saved.
 

Just the saints of the Old Testament?  Not ALL those who had died before Christ?

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« Reply #129 on: September 16, 2010, 09:56:09 PM »

There are two ways of looking at Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Islam, etc.

1.  The first one is to start from the verse of the Psalms "All the gods of the pagans are demons."

2.  The second is to understand that it is God Himself who has planted in man the need to worship Him.   In the places outside the countries of divine revelation (first Israel, and now the Christian countries) this God-given urge took many forms.  Some of the religions which were formed were mild and benevolent (Buddhism) and some were militant (Islam) and some (thank God, now extinct) required such ghastly things as human sacrifice.  And in the last example we can see the demons at work, perverting the human need to worship.


Man is created to worship God, and man will find for himself the ways to satisfy the need God has put so deep in his heart.  He can no more help worshipping than he can eating.  Without divine revelation he is not able to create true and pure religion and so he gets parts of it wrong.

A critique of Dawkins noted that God is as much as a creation of man's psychological needs as food is the creation of man's hunger to eat.
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« Reply #130 on: September 16, 2010, 10:10:02 PM »

Neither was it necessary for all Jews to hold the Gospel valuable.

Huh
That is, some Jews rejected Jesus; other Jesus accepted Jesus (and, a bit later, the Gospels).

It's not the case that one religion totally replaces its predecessor. We can still have reptiles even after birds evolve from reptiles. (By the way, I'm not comparing any religion to either reptiles or birds. Roll Eyes)


Well, there has only ever been and only ever will be one TRUE religion. The Jews who accepted Jesus Christ were following the true religion; the Jews who rejected Him, the false.

If Judaism is false then much of Christianity is false to. The disagreement is over the spiritual identity of Jesus as the Messiah. But the very idea of a "Messiah" is part of the Jewish religion, which apparently you share, like it or not .

Is the idea of One God false too? How about how we were created ( Genesis), false too???  Etc.


The Jews who ACCEPTED Christ were following the true religion, because the TRUE Judaism of the Old Testament DEPENDED on the FAITH and HOPE in the MESSIAH (Hebrew for CHRIST) and the RESURRECTION. THEREFORE those who accepted the Messiah/Christ WHEN HE CAME IN REALITY and WHEN HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD IN REALITY, were continuing the true faith of their fathers, because they ACCEPTED the Messiah and ACCEPTED the Resurrection. Those who DENIED Christ DENIED the Messiah, DENIED the Resurrection, and therefore DENIED their own faith!

Take home message: THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN TRUE AND FALSE JUDAISM!!! The Judaism YOU are promoting, the Judaism of the rabbis and Jews who rejected Christ, is FALSE. The Judaism I am promoting, the Judaism of the Prophets, which our Lord came to fulfill, and which now exists in its fullness as ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY, is the TRUE Judaism.

I'm sorry for shouting, but sometimes I think you're hard of hearing.

I think you  need to learn how to read for content. Didn't I just say the disagreement is over the identity of the Messiah?   Yes/No


That is the pivotal question. The rest of your formulation is ignorant. You cant label ALL Jewish beliefs false with a broad brush because Christianity shares most of them. Which part of this do you still not understand ?

If Judaism was wholly false, why was there any debate among the apostles about remaining a Jewish Sect vs converting Gentiles?

Think it over.  

I'm sure there's a lot of the teachings of true Judaism that the rabbis didn't manage to screw up in their Talmudic tradition. But that's beside the point. The point is that the most important purpose of Old Testament Judaism, the expectation of the Messiah, has been fulfilled. True Judaism has now been subsumed in Orthodox Christianity, and no longer exists on its own. There is no true Judaism outside the Orthodox Church.

A religion is either true or false, when we are talking in terms of salvation. If a religion is 99% true, but has one false dogma, it is still insufficient for salvation. If you didn't learn that in catechesis I would suggest doing it over again.
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« Reply #131 on: September 16, 2010, 10:22:13 PM »

I can admire the good praticed by people of any religion but not the religion itself. Islam denies the essential orthodox doctrines, thus I do not respect the religion. A person of any religion should only respect their own religion. This plurilism that alot of people want in this time annoys me.
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« Reply #132 on: September 16, 2010, 11:01:19 PM »

Yes, non-Christian religions are false. Christian confessions outside of Orthodoxy are gravely mistaken. But effective missionizing requires calling non-Christians to recognize the prefigurements of Christ in their own spiritual reflection as much as it requires denouncing heresies. Look at St Paul's speech on Mars Hill, where he could have simply gone on about how the Greek deities are demons, but instead said that so far the Greeks were only getting one side of the story, but now he'll proclaim the glory of Christ that was hidden to them.

I was not aware that we were missionizing here in this thread. I thought this was internal family shop talk. I agree that it would be wrong to walk up to a Jew and say "You follow a false religion". Perhaps we're coming from different contexts.

My greater concern is those who seem to have difficulty saying any religion is false, despite the fact that both religions are aware of, and actively reject, the only God there actually is. 

And I am not so sure it's the same thing, in any case. Both modern Judaism and Islam are aware of Christianity's existence, and dispute it. This is because they both came into play after Christianity. The Greeks of St Paul's day did not know of Christianity. Obviously that's not an excuse for us not to missionize, but it does change things a bit from the example. 

I am pretty certain that Judaism pre-dates Christianity..Just an FYI Smiley

And the Judaism beleived during the time of Jesus is the same religion as it is now. It's just that many of the factions and sects were killed off and we were left only with one or two forms. So no, there are no Sadducees or Essines left, But there are Pharisees left of the type that Jesus made common cause with and others that his strongly opposed. It's complicated just like Christianity has been complicated by the rise and fall of various factions, sects and heresies. 

There is a pretty good book put out by the Karaites ( a Jewish Sect) called :   
 
"The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus" by Nehemia Gordon

Oh believe me, I know. I was heavily into Judaizing forms of Christianity in my formative years. And I've heard more conjecturous teachings about "our Rabbi Jesus" in my life than I care to think about.

Modern Rabbinical Judaism is completely different from Second Temple Judaism. I posit it is, for all intents and purposes, a different religion, in the same way that Mormonism and Orthodoxy are different religions.

Yes, the modern Jewish religion can be traced back to Pharisees and all, I know that. It's not entirely reconstructionist, but where is the Temple? Judaism has been centered on the temple and the sacrificial system since Moses—nay, Cain and Abel. If the Jews claim to be the same religion as the people in the Old Testament, where is the worship of the Old Testament? How are they atoning for their sins if God told them to do it via blood sacrifice? Where is the scapegoat?

I can tell you where the Jewish sacrifice is today: it's sitting on the altar of my parish church, and yours.

The Judaism the Apostles knew was destroyed with the Temple, and those Jews who rejected their Messiah cobbled together a new religion altogether, which reinterprets scripture radically different from those they claim to be spiritually descended from. I do empathize for them; I can't imagine seeing what they considered the dwelling of God destroyed. But the fact is that God had walked among them and they killed him; he came to live within the hearts of his people, and they ignored him.

I'm not saying Jews are bad people, or that they do ugly or evil things. But I am saying that Orthodoxy is Supercessionist, and that the one and only Israel is the Orthodox Church, and the only true "Jews" are Orthodox Christians. I'm not being trimphalistic, I'm merely stating facts. Judaism was entirely superseded by the Church, and there is no truth in Judaism beside the fully-revealed truth in the Church, who is Christ.
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« Reply #133 on: September 17, 2010, 08:20:20 AM »

First, I will state clearly and concisely as Orthodox Christians we ALL chant near the conclusion of the Liturgy that 'We have seen the true light, we have received the heavenly Spirit, we have found the true faith, we adore the undivided Holy Trinity, Who has saved us!'

That being said, we are living in the world among the majority of God's people who do not accept our Faith. Father Ambrose is spot on and I would add that the distinction between being thankful for our having received the Light and espousing pharisaic arrogance in our attitudes and expressions of Faith can often be blurred by good intentions and the sin of pride.

A few weeks ago, my brother, an ACROD priest, received a DVD of a Local Faith Communities initiative
that has been operative in the lower East side of New York City for some time before the current controversy that has dominated the news in recent days. For those of you not familiar with the City, the lower East side neighborhood is near Ground Zero.
 
It was sent to him by a former altar boy at our parish who is a deacon at the  the Holy Protection of the Virgin Orthodox Cathedral on Second Street. (Bishop Michael of New York is also a former altar boy from our parish.) The video is about an hour long and the section from the Cathedral is in the first half hour.
 
If you have time, take a look at it.  You can find it at http://www.localfaithcommunities.org/
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Irish Hermit
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #134 on: September 17, 2010, 09:27:03 AM »


A religion is either true or false, when we are talking in terms of salvation. If a religion is 99% true, but has one false dogma, it is still insufficient for salvation. If you didn't learn that in catechesis I would suggest doing it over again.


You appear to be saying that such as Roman Catholics are not eligible for salvation.  In fact you appear to be saying that the entire world population, apart from the Orthodox who have it 100% right, are ineligible for salvation.  Am I understanding you correctly?

And the next question would be..... IF I am understanding you correctly, then who on earth was in charge of *your* catechesis?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 09:35:35 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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