Author Topic: Date of Christ's birth  (Read 1289 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Date of Christ's birth
« on: December 27, 2010, 10:18:37 PM »
Does the Church teach that Christ was born on December 25th?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,378
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2010, 10:20:09 PM »
Does the Church teach that Christ was born on December 25th?
If the Church taught that, she'd probably be wrong.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 39,580
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2010, 11:56:42 PM »
Does the Church teach that Christ was born on December 25th?
It is one of 365 (at most, 366) choices. It's one of them, most definitely.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2010, 11:58:57 PM »
Feburary 30th, 2 B.C.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,378
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 01:12:40 AM »
Does the Church teach that Christ was born on December 25th?
On a more serious note to counter the humorous, maybe even ridiculous responses made thus far, I'm not sure the Church is really into making dogmatic statements on when in history a particular event happened, such as the actual date of Christ's birth. The important thing is that Christ was born into this world as a human baby.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Gamliel

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,237
  • ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστον βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 03:49:51 AM »
I have heard some atheists and agnostics complain that the Church stole Dec. 25 from a pagan holiday.  Of course, they could complain about that with almost anytime of the year.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,378
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 10:44:19 AM »
I have heard some atheists and agnostics complain that the Church stole Dec. 25 from a pagan holiday.  Of course, they could complain about that with almost anytime of the year.
I guess there's now question that even this is true.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,32282.0.html
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Cymbyz

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 496
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 02:16:01 PM »
I have recently seen reasonable arguments from Protestant sources on this subject.

For an argument in favor of a date in 4 B.C., see:  http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/chronology/Chrmas.html

For an artument in favor of a date in 3 B.C., see:  http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/birthofchrist.html

I am personally in favor of the later date because the time-frame given allows for all the events to take place without rushing, and there is good astronomical support for the dating.
The end of the world
is as near as the day of your death;
watch and pray.
 
 Yahoo! & WLM ID: Owen

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 02:35:11 PM »
Does the Church teach that Christ was born on December 25th?

Does the Church celebrate Christ's birth on some other date?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,378
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2010, 12:41:06 AM »
Does the Church teach that Christ was born on December 25th?

Does the Church celebrate Christ's birth on some other date?
Is the date of our annual celebration of the Nativity supposed to be seen as a dogmatic statement of a historical date?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2010, 01:59:41 AM »
01:34 a.m., Saturday, 24 October, -2 BCE.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,711
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2010, 09:39:50 AM »
01:34 a.m., Saturday, 24 October, -2 BCE.
GMT?

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2010, 11:05:14 AM »
Does the Church teach that Christ was born on December 25th?

Does the Church celebrate Christ's birth on some other date?
Is the date of our annual celebration of the Nativity supposed to be seen as a dogmatic statement of a historical date?
Just because something is not enshrined in dogma, but is hallowed by tradition, does that mean that it can be tossed aside? It may not be dogma, but the Church bids us celebrate the Nativity of Christ on that date, believing that that is the correct day, not because of history, per se, but because it is the day of liturgical celebration. Same thing with the Transfiguration. Aug. 6 has always been the day, even though the Lord, according to the Gospel, was transfigured shortly before His crucifixion. But Aug. 6 is the date, because it is 40 days before the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, on Sept. 14.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 11:09:17 AM by Shanghaiski »
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,378
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Date of Christ's birth
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2010, 02:23:59 PM »
Does the Church teach that Christ was born on December 25th?

Does the Church celebrate Christ's birth on some other date?
Is the date of our annual celebration of the Nativity supposed to be seen as a dogmatic statement of a historical date?
Just because something is not enshrined in dogma, but is hallowed by tradition, does that mean that it can be tossed aside? It may not be dogma, but the Church bids us celebrate the Nativity of Christ on that date, believing that that is the correct day, not because of history, per se, but because it is the day of liturgical celebration. Same thing with the Transfiguration. Aug. 6 has always been the day, even though the Lord, according to the Gospel, was transfigured shortly before His crucifixion. But Aug. 6 is the date, because it is 40 days before the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, on Sept. 14.
Then you're talking about something totally different. You're talking about when the Church celebrates a feast, while I'm addressing the OP's question about what the Church says or doesn't say about a particular date in history. The OP's question is: "Does the Church teach that Christ was born on December 25th?", NOT "Does the Church teach that December 25th is the correct date to celebrate Christ's birth?".
Not all who wander are lost.