Author Topic: What kind of Greek  (Read 936 times)

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Offline lokkenx

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What kind of Greek
« on: September 10, 2010, 10:37:19 AM »
What kind of Greek does the GOARCH use? I'm trying to learn how to pronounce Greek in the Liturgy correctly and found that there several types of Greek (Ancient, Koine, Byzantine, and Modern Greek). Thanks. :)

Offline wynd

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Re: What kind of Greek
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2010, 11:02:21 AM »
What kind of Greek does the GOARCH use? I'm trying to learn how to pronounce Greek in the Liturgy correctly and found that there several types of Greek (Ancient, Koine, Byzantine, and Modern Greek). Thanks. :)

From what I understand, it's a combination of Koine and Byzantine, but everything is pronounced like Modern.

Offline lokkenx

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Re: What kind of Greek
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2010, 11:06:42 AM »
Thank you. :)

Offline Anastasios

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Re: What kind of Greek
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2010, 11:58:07 AM »
If you want to learn how to pronounce Greek, I suggest you go to this site:

http://www.analogion.net/glt/

Specifically this page:

http://www.analogion.net/glt/texts/Oro/OrthrosSun.uni.htm

Specifically the section that starts here:

Ἀπολυτίκιον Ἦχος α' ΤΟ ΑΚΟΥΤΕ   α'


Where it says "ΤΟ ΑΚΟΥΤΕ" that is a link to an mp3.  So open it in another tab or window, and you will thus have the text in front of you, and the sound being played via the other tab.  You can repeat this over and over again with these hymns, and you will then in a matter of hours be able to read and pronounce the letters of Greek pretty well.

These particular hymns happen to be the Dismissal Hymns (Troparia/Apolytikia) of Sunday in the 8 tones, along with their Theotokia.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 11:58:54 AM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: What kind of Greek
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2010, 12:05:42 PM »
What kind of Greek does the GOARCH use? I'm trying to learn how to pronounce Greek in the Liturgy correctly and found that there several types of Greek (Ancient, Koine, Byzantine, and Modern Greek). Thanks. :)

From what I understand, it's a combination of Koine and Byzantine, but everything is pronounced like Modern.

"Itacization" -- the thing that the less phonologically aware British/American academics think of as "modern" pronunciation -- occurred in Koine Greek. Many Hellenistic papyri, especially from Egypt, show its influence. In other words, "modern" pronunciation was widespread before the time of Christ and has been dominate since the 2nd century AD. Check out Robert Browning's Medieval and Modern Greek (Cambridge University Press, 1983) for the full story.

As for the language of the Liturgy: Anyone who can read Attic, Koine, or Byzantine would have no trouble understanding the Liturgy. In a practical sense, after 12 years as a reader of those three dialects, I don't find any significant differences among them (such things only mattered as a novice). Far more significant is the style, subject matter, and level of education of the author and reader. Same as English today. It's all "modern" English, but it's hard for someone with a 4th grade education to understand the prose of Saul Bellow or the poetry of T.S. Eliot; or a 10th grader to understand an academic article published in Comparative Literature; or a college-educated humanities major to understand a study published in Cellular Oncology.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 12:06:19 PM by pensateomnia »
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Offline Apostolos

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Re: What kind of Greek
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2010, 02:27:35 PM »
What kind of Greek does the GOARCH use? I'm trying to learn how to pronounce Greek in the Liturgy correctly and found that there several types of Greek (Ancient, Koine, Byzantine, and Modern Greek). Thanks. :)

From what I understand, it's a combination of Koine and Byzantine, but everything is pronounced like Modern.

"Itacization" -- the thing that the less phonologically aware British/American academics think of as "modern" pronunciation -- occurred in Koine Greek. Many Hellenistic papyri, especially from Egypt, show its influence. In other words, "modern" pronunciation was widespread before the time of Christ and has been dominate since the 2nd century AD. Check out Robert Browning's Medieval and Modern Greek (Cambridge University Press, 1983) for the full story.
It's a long process that started much earlier PO, the first iotacisms appear in Plato's time:
Plato, Cratylus (360 BC)
«τὸν οὖν ἄρχοντα τῆς δυνάμεως ταύτης θεόν ὠνόμασεν Ποσειδώνα, ὡς ποσίδεσμον ὄντα»
(Translation: "therefore he called the ruler of this element Poseidon; Poseidon is Posidesmos, the chain of the feet")
The sound of the diphthong epsilon-iota «ει» (ei) had already been replaced by the plain iota «ι» when Plato wrote Cratylus
Ἄνωθεν οἱ Προφῆται. Ἦχος Βαρύς.

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Offline CRCulver

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Re: What kind of Greek
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2010, 07:20:21 PM »
"Itacization" -- the thing that the less phonologically aware British/American academics think of as "modern" pronunciation -- occurred in Koine Greek.

Not completely. The sound represented by ypsilon, for example (probably /ü/ throughout) didn't merge with /i/ until the end of the first millennium. A couple of other sound shifts happened early in the Byzantine era.

FWIW, If I have to say prayers in Greek, I use the reconstructed Attic pronunciation.

Offline lokkenx

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Re: What kind of Greek
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2010, 07:31:59 PM »
Thanks, everyone!  :)

Offline augustin717

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Re: What kind of Greek
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2010, 07:36:23 PM »
I wonder how did Christian Latin not follow the itacization, if it was the standard at the time when words such "Iesus", "Alleluia", "Amen" were borrowed from Greek?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: What kind of Greek
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2010, 08:21:31 PM »
I wonder how did Christian Latin not follow the itacization, if it was the standard at the time when words such "Iesus", "Alleluia", "Amen" were borrowed from Greek?
Learned pronunciation. You see it in Coptic, Syriac and Armenian as well, but had died out by the time the Cyrillic alphabet was adopted for Slavic.
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                           and both come out of your mouth