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Author Topic: Most like the Byzantines?  (Read 982 times) Average Rating: 0
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deusveritasest
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« on: September 08, 2010, 10:04:16 PM »

Given my background, I've been curious about this question for a little while: which, if any, of the Oriental churches is most like the Byzantines in what is particular about them (theological emphases, culture, liturgics, etc.) in comparison to the other Oriental churches?

For a little while I had a hope for the possibility of a Byzantine rite OO church. But it would seem that that is not likely to come to pass anytime soon. I am considering this as a possible alternative.
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2010, 10:55:01 PM »

I always felt that the vestments of the Armenian and Syriac Churches were more similar to EO vestments than those of the Copts and Ethiopians.  Not that they are identical.  They are just more similar.

The Copts and Ethiopians, on the other hand, use more icons in their worship, have iconostases, etc., which makes the inside of their churches more similar to EO churches than Armenian and Syriac churches.

I don't think you will find one OO Church which is uniformly more like the EO's than the others.  
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2010, 11:32:33 PM »

Given my background, I've been curious about this question for a little while: which, if any, of the Oriental churches is most like the Byzantines in what is particular about them (theological emphases, culture, liturgics, etc.) in comparison to the other Oriental churches?

For a little while I had a hope for the possibility of a Byzantine rite OO church. But it would seem that that is not likely to come to pass anytime soon. I am considering this as a possible alternative.

I'm curious why you aren't already a member of an OO church, considering that you believe them to be the true Church.
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2010, 12:23:29 AM »

For the other way around, I would consider the Georgian Church the EO Church most like an OO church, but too bad that's not an option!
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 01:04:01 AM »

Given my background, I've been curious about this question for a little while: which, if any, of the Oriental churches is most like the Byzantines in what is particular about them (theological emphases, culture, liturgics, etc.) in comparison to the other Oriental churches?

For a little while I had a hope for the possibility of a Byzantine rite OO church. But it would seem that that is not likely to come to pass anytime soon. I am considering this as a possible alternative.

I'm curious why you aren't already a member of an OO church, considering that you believe them to be the true Church.

I have gone through a rather complicated rational processing of the Agreed Statements and what effect I think they have on the Church.
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2010, 01:04:01 AM »

I don't think you will find one OO Church which is uniformly more like the EO's than the others.  

I would not be surprised if that were the case.
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2010, 01:04:01 AM »

What about liturgical rite? I am wondering if perhaps the rite used by the Armenian church is more similar to the Byzantines because of its origin in the rite of Caesarea Cappadocia.
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2010, 01:04:01 AM »

For the other way around, I would consider the Georgian Church the EO Church most like an OO church, but too bad that's not an option!

That makes a fair amount of sense as Caucasian Christianity was originally predominantly OO, and the Armenian segment remained OO, and the Georgian church is highly related to the Armenian.
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2010, 01:09:23 AM »

What about liturgical rite? I am wondering if perhaps the rite used by the Armenian church is more similar to the Byzantines because of its origin in the rite of Caesarea Cappadocia.

I'm not even remotely an expert on our liturgy, but it is my understanding that the Armenian liturgy has had a few different influences over the centuries, while still retaining some very ancient characteristics.  There was a lecture I once linked about the Armenian rite, calendar, etc. preserving the ancient Jerusalem rite.
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2010, 01:17:35 AM »

Here is the link:

http://www.stnersess.edu/classroom/lectures/index.php

It's the lecture entitled: "The Liturgical Year of the Armenian Church: Feasts, Fasts and Foundations of Faith"
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2010, 02:35:12 AM »

For a little while I had a hope for the possibility of a Byzantine rite OO church.

So there is some interest to revive the Byzantine rite in the OO church?

Since the EOs celebrated OO rites for some centuries after the schism has there anytime been OO parishes or monasteries who celebrated the Byzantine rite even after the Chalcedon?
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2010, 02:52:06 AM »

I don't think there is any interest in using the Byzantine rite in the OO communion. I can't see why there would be?

The British Orthodox Church does use the Greek Liturgy of St James, but that is a special case, and in a real sense the Liturgy of St James predates the issue of whether or not it is Byzantine.

It was the Byzantine communion which eliminated all of the local variety of rites in recent times, so the original situation in the Byzantine communion was like that of the OO today. The Byzantine rite is not part of the tradition of the OO which has been lost, it is the other way round. It was not until quite late that the Greek Church of Alexandria stopped using the usual Egyptian rite for instance.

It would be a more interesting question to ask if there was interest in the Byzantine communion in going back to the historic local rites.

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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2010, 04:00:05 AM »

I always felt that the vestments of the Armenian and Syriac Churches were more similar to EO vestments than those of the Copts and Ethiopians.  Not that they are identical.  They are just more similar.

The Copts and Ethiopians, on the other hand, use more icons in their worship, have iconostases, etc., which makes the inside of their churches more similar to EO churches than Armenian and Syriac churches.

I don't think you will find one OO Church which is uniformly more like the EO's than the others.  

There has been in recent years, I suspect in part due to the affluence of the Coptic Diaspora, of Coptic vestments, iconography etc. showing "Greekizing" a/k/a "Byzantinization."  Part because a lot of stuff I think is being brought or commissioned in Greece, which is close by and deeply involved in the Greek Patriarchate of Alexandria, and it carries over.  Even better, it bolsters the neo-Coptic style.
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« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2010, 07:45:41 AM »

Given my background, I've been curious about this question for a little while: which, if any, of the Oriental churches is most like the Byzantines in what is particular about them (theological emphases, culture, liturgics, etc.) in comparison to the other Oriental churches?

For a little while I had a hope for the possibility of a Byzantine rite OO church. But it would seem that that is not likely to come to pass anytime soon. I am considering this as a possible alternative.

I'm curious why you aren't already a member of an OO church, considering that you believe them to be the true Church.

I have gone through a rather complicated rational processing of the Agreed Statements and what effect I think they have on the Church.

How bad could it be? Do you think they might have destroyed the Church? Is "rational processing" in isolation really rational?
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« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2010, 07:52:40 AM »

Every Coptic priest and bishop I have seen has always worn the relatively simple vestments of the Coptic Orthodox Church. There seems to me rather a problem with some not dressing up suitably rather than dressing up too much.

The most I could say I have ever seen is that some bishops wear diverse pectoral crosses. But this is often because they have been given them as gifts.

Father Peter
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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2010, 07:56:00 AM »

What about liturgical rite? I am wondering if perhaps the rite used by the Armenian church is more similar to the Byzantines because of its origin in the rite of Caesarea Cappadocia.

At least on paper the Armenian Liturgy is very close to the Byzantine one - much more so than the Coptic.
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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2010, 08:01:01 AM »

The use of a particular liturgy has really nothing to do with a community being EO or OO other than because of the fact that the EO eliminated all local liturgies in the Middle Ages. Before that the local rites were the local rites.

If you want to study the origins of the different liturgical forms then you should read Gregory Dix - the Shape of the Liturgy - which will explain the various families. It is not a matter of theology, it is a matter of history, in the same way that the Roman rite came to dominate the West to the exclusion of all others. It is a feature of an imperial intervention in the past in both cases.

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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2010, 12:32:52 PM »

In my opinion and experience the rite of the Assyrians feels very close to that of Constantinople.
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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2010, 10:49:23 PM »

So there is some interest to revive the Byzantine rite in the OO church?

I wouldn't assume that. For one thing, you are only hearing it expressed from one person. And I'm not even really part of the OOC.

Since the EOs celebrated OO rites for some centuries after the schism has there anytime been OO parishes or monasteries who celebrated the Byzantine rite even after the Chalcedon?

It's possible that the Armenian rite at the time was not that different from that of Constantinople, them both seemingly being derived from the rite of Cappadocia.

But it would not have really been existent the same way for a significant reason. This is because the Byzantine rite was essentially an invasion of churches that were originally of various Oriental rites. As for the Anti-Chalcedonians, on the other hand, as far as I can tell there weren't really significant patches of churches that were not Oriental to begin with.
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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2010, 10:49:23 PM »

I don't think there is any interest in using the Byzantine rite in the OO communion. I can't see why there would be?

For me, it is essentially for the same reason that the Western rite converts in the Chalcedonian communion have a desire to retain their Western rites.

The British Orthodox Church does use the Greek Liturgy of St James, but that is a special case, and in a real sense the Liturgy of St James predates the issue of whether or not it is Byzantine.

Sure. From what I have been told, various rites were developed on the basis of the Greek James.
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« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2010, 10:50:44 PM »

How bad could it be?

It could be that the vast majority of Orientals have compromised their Anti-Chalcedonian nature and thus have fallen away from the Church.

Do you think they might have destroyed the Church?

Obviously if this train of thought leads me to conclude that there is no one who qualifies as "the Church" that there is probably something wrong with the way I am going about it.

However, at this point I am thinking of simply treating it as an erroneous teaching that is within the Church which needs to be expelled as it would seem the Fathers treated heresy.
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« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2010, 10:50:44 PM »

In my opinion and experience the rite of the Assyrians feels very close to that of Constantinople.

By Assyrians do you mean the Syriac Orthodox or the ACE?
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« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2010, 10:51:11 PM »

The use of a particular liturgy has really nothing to do with a community being EO or OO other than because of the fact that the EO eliminated all local liturgies in the Middle Ages. Before that the local rites were the local rites.

I'm aware. But that is somewhat tangential because I asked specifically about the Byzantine rite, the rite with which I have the most experience.
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