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Author Topic: I'm......Ukranian?!?!?!  (Read 5209 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: September 08, 2010, 05:47:11 PM »

I am (in all) Slovak, Polish, German, Irish, English, and I JUST found out that I have Ukranian blood in me.  my dad saif that on my Polish side, I have Ukranian ancestry. 

can someone please explain to me, was Ukranian part of Russia? (would that make me Russian?!) 

I really know nothing about Ukrain, and would be very pleased if someone could explain a bit about this country.  thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2010, 05:52:25 PM »

I am (in all) Slovak, Polish, German, Irish, English, and I JUST found out that I have Ukranian blood in me.  my dad saif that on my Polish side, I have Ukranian ancestry. 

can someone please explain to me, was Ukranian part of Russia? (would that make me Russian?!) 

I really know nothing about Ukrain, and would be very pleased if someone could explain a bit about this country.  thanks!
Oh, you just stepped in it....

Congratulations, no matter where this goes.
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2010, 05:53:36 PM »

Trevor,

You know not what you ask....this will lead to 500 posts of nationalistic rants.
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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2010, 06:03:15 PM »

Wink

Ukrainian is Ukrainian, Russian is Russian.

Two separate nations and nationalities.

Glad to welcome you to the Ukrainian Clan!  We are a great bunch!

Do you like borsch?  Varenyki (potato dumplings)?  Garlic? 


« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 06:05:28 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2010, 06:17:33 PM »

I think among other things, Trevor has nightmares of trolls . . .
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 06:23:36 PM »

I think among other things, Trevor has nightmares of trolls . . .

Now it'll be about Baba Jaga.
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 06:26:50 PM »

I have Serbian and British background myself. Trevor, as for the Polish/Ukranian question... it is very complex and can really get folks emotions running high. I'll just leave it at that. On an aside, Borsch, varenyki, and garlic are very tasty! Baba Jaga... LoL! :-)
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 06:35:58 PM »

Wink

Ukrainian is Ukrainian, Russian is Russian.

Two separate nations and nationalities.

Glad to welcome you to the Ukrainian Clan!  We are a great bunch!

Do you like borsch?  Varenyki (potato dumplings)?  Garlic? 



wow, my Grandmother used to make me Borsch, and tell me about the Baba Jaga!  lol, I must be Ukranian!  it seems I get more and more Slavic every day...
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 06:37:50 PM »

I think among other things, Trevor has nightmares of trolls . . .

lol....quite!

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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2010, 06:47:47 PM »

Wink

Ukrainian is Ukrainian, Russian is Russian.

Two separate nations and nationalities.

Glad to welcome you to the Ukrainian Clan!  We are a great bunch!

Do you like borsch?  Varenyki (potato dumplings)?  Garlic?  



wow, my Grandmother used to make me Borsch, and tell me about the Baba Jaga!  lol, I must be Ukranian!  it seems I get more and more Slavic every day...


I called  Polish Friend a Baba Jaga ,I thought i just made up that name on the spot, at that time,,Interesting to know that  name existed already.....A baba Jaga is what for the Ukrainians or even polish people.... Grin
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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2010, 09:22:40 PM »

I am (in all) Slovak, Polish, German, Irish, English, and I JUST found out that I have Ukranian blood in me.  my dad saif that on my Polish side, I have Ukranian ancestry. 

can someone please explain to me, was Ukranian part of Russia? (would that make me Russian?!) 

I really know nothing about Ukrain, and would be very pleased if someone could explain a bit about this country.  thanks!
Not in any meaningful sense, if you don't have any exposure to that culture .
To paraphrase one illustrious contributor here "nationality isn't passed on by copulation"
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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2010, 10:04:16 PM »

can someone please explain to me, was Ukranian part of Russia? (would that make me Russian?!)

For a little while, yes, the land now known as Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire and then the USSR.

Part of it was, on the other hand, part of Poland for a little while before that.
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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2010, 10:04:16 PM »

I am (in all) Slovak, Polish, German, Irish, English, and I JUST found out that I have Ukranian blood in me.  my dad saif that on my Polish side, I have Ukranian ancestry. 

can someone please explain to me, was Ukranian part of Russia? (would that make me Russian?!) 

I really know nothing about Ukrain, and would be very pleased if someone could explain a bit about this country.  thanks!
Not in any meaningful sense, if you don't have any exposure to that culture .
To paraphrase one illustrious contributor here "nationality isn't passed on by copulation"

Sure, but in English "nationality" and "ethnicity" are slightly different realities. Who one is biologically and even culturally often reflects one's ethnic background, if not national background.
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« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 11:34:28 PM »

Most of the Ukraine including Kiev, the capital, historically is Russian.

People from Galicia in the far west are closely related but not Russian. They were ruled by Poland (but are not Polish) from the 1300s until WWII. Closely related like the Spanish and Portuguese: even largely mutually intelligible languages (Galicia is the home of the Ukrainian language, a transitional language between Russian and Polish, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church) but different.

The part about ethnicity and culture reminds me of a conversation I had tonight in which I said Obama's not black. Not in the sense of black American culture. Absent foreign father, white mother and grandparents who raised him, growing up in Hawaii and Indonesia away from the black community (the closest he came to it was watching 'Soul Train' in Honolulu)... he's a white who happens to look like blacks.
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2010, 11:36:59 PM »

Most of the Ukraine including Kiev, the capital, historically is Russian.

People from Galicia in the far west are closely related but not Russian. They were ruled by Poland (but are not Polish) from the 1300s until WWII. Closely related like the Spanish and Portuguese: even largely mutually intelligible languages (Galicia is the home of the Ukrainian language, a transitional language between Russian and Polish, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church) but different.

The part about ethnicity and culture reminds me of a conversation I had tonight in which I said Obama's not black. Not in the sense of black American culture. Absent foreign father, white mother and grandparents who raised him, growing up in Hawaii and Indonesia away from the black community (the closest he came to it was watching 'Soul Train' in Honolulu)... he's a white who happens to look like blacks.
lol, good point! Cheesy
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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2010, 05:23:05 AM »

Baba Jaga is a heroine of a Russian floclore, not Ukrainian.
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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2010, 05:24:13 AM »

What pani Liza said above.

Being Ukrainian may mean different things to different people. I, for one, was born and raised in Ukraine, and I have always identified myself as a Ukrainian. That was despite several things:

- my parents were both Russian-speakers (my grandfather spoke mostly Ukrainian, but my dad became completely Russified in his schools of the 1930-s, when the "Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was obsessed with "eradicating the Ukrainian bourgeois nationalism";

- my mother identifies herself as Russian (her mother identified herself as Russian, even though her father - my mom's granddad - was Greek, and my mom's grandma was probably a Russified Ukrainian;

- my great-grandfather on my paternal side, my dad's maternal grandfather, had a very Russian-sounding name (Chudakov) and could have been Russian (although I suspect that he called himself Russian, being a teacher at a Tzarist "Gimnazija," a school for aristocratic girls.

I don't really care what genes I have on what side, and how "pure" my Ukrainian blood is. (Actually I am a mongrel like most people.Smiley) But I am Ukrainian. Ukraine is my country of birth. It is NOT Russia, no, no, no, thousand times no; it has its separate history, language, culture, identity, and its own future.
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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2010, 06:43:00 AM »

An easy way to judge whether you are Ukrainian, is to notice whether or not your blood starts to boil, a dark haze comes before your eyes and steam curls out of your ears when folks like The young fogey refer to Ukraine, as "the" Ukraine.

Wink




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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2010, 06:56:08 AM »

Baba Jaga lives on the Łysica mountain, the highest peak of the Holy Cross mountains (Góry Świętokrzyskie) in Poland. There she and her witches' commune plan on who to attack children who do not listen to their parents. Only unobedient children are taken away to Łysica but there is always a chance that the witches might make a mistake and take a good child. This is said to have happened once or twice, but the witches apologised and and in reparation the witches stole the door of  St.Mary Major's basilica in Rome and transferred it to the parish church. I forget the village's name though. On a mountain nearby Łysica there is a monastery which has kept the relics of the Holy Cross since the 14th century.
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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2010, 08:18:44 AM »

Just stick with the Irish and German.  It'll be much easier.   Wink
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« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2010, 09:07:41 AM »

What pani Liza said above.

Being Ukrainian may mean different things to different people. I, for one, was born and raised in Ukraine, and I have always identified myself as a Ukrainian. That was despite several things:

- my parents were both Russian-speakers (my grandfather spoke mostly Ukrainian, but my dad became completely Russified in his schools of the 1930-s, when the "Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was obsessed with "eradicating the Ukrainian bourgeois nationalism";

- my mother identifies herself as Russian (her mother identified herself as Russian, even though her father - my mom's granddad - was Greek, and my mom's grandma was probably a Russified Ukrainian;

- my great-grandfather on my paternal side, my dad's maternal grandfather, had a very Russian-sounding name (Chudakov) and could have been Russian (although I suspect that he called himself Russian, being a teacher at a Tzarist "Gimnazija," a school for aristocratic girls.

I don't really care what genes I have on what side, and how "pure" my Ukrainian blood is. (Actually I am a mongrel like most people.Smiley) But I am Ukrainian. Ukraine is my country of birth. It is NOT Russia, no, no, no, thousand times no; it has its separate history, language, culture, identity, and its own future.
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« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2010, 09:08:30 AM »

Most of the Ukraine including Kiev, the capital, historically is Russian.

Strongly disagree. Again, it's a subtle inconspicuous change of terms. Kyiv has been, historically, a town of "Rus'" (with soft "s" at the end). When Kyiv reached its status as the capital of Eastern Slavs (9th - 10th century AD), there was no such thing as "Russia" ("Rossiya"). What eventually turned out to be the Russian nation began in the 12th century, when prince Yuriy Dolgoruky built a township called Moskva (Finnish for roten water). In the 13th century Kyiv was completely destroyed by Mongols, but then completely rebuilt by the dynasty of Great Princes of Lithuania (Gyadiminides). In the 14th and early 15th century Kyiv was ruled by these Lithuanian princes and their najordomes, but the rulers by that time had already been quite "Rus'"-sified (spoke, wrote, and carried the administrative business in the tongue of the local population, which was the language of "Rus'" - ancestor of the modern vernacular Ukrainian). Moskva, however, developed separately; it was also run over by Mongols, but, rather than becoming re-Slavicised, essentially merged with the Golden Horde, becoming one of the Mongol-Tatar "uluses," and assuming the name "Great Principality of Muscovy" (Velikoe Knyazhestvo Moskovskoe"). Moscovites did not refer to themselves as "Rus'." In the 15th century, Kyiv fell under the power of Polish kings, as Lithuania and Poland merged into one "Rzecz Polpolita," a federative state with Krakow as its center and Roman Catholicism as its dominant religion; however, the Rus' population in the lands of Rzecz Polpolita remained Rus' by ethnicity and largely Orthodox by faith. They kept their Rus' language,eventually forming what are now Ukrainian and Belarussian languages. The Moscow lands remained under the Mongol-Tatar control till the 1480-s, when the Great Prince of Muscovy Ivan III refused to pay tribute to the Tatar Khan Ahmed. Throughout the 14th - 16th and early 17th century, the two nations (Rus'  - which was the ancestor to Ukrainains, and Moskva-Muscovy, which was the ancestor of the modern "Russian" nation (Russkiye") - developed separately and did not even have much communication between themselves. The merger between the two nations began only after the Pereyaslav treaty of 1654.

People from Galicia in the far west are closely related but not Russian. They were ruled by Poland (but are not Polish) from the 1300s until WWII. Closely related like the Spanish and Portuguese: even largely mutually intelligible languages (Galicia is the home of the Ukrainian language, a transitional language between Russian and Polish, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church) but different.

Serge, you must be joking! There is no such thing as "Galicia" in Eastern Slavic world. "Galicia" is a hilarious distortion of the Slavic toponym Halychyna. The people of Halychyna are as Ukrainian as the people from Kyiv or Poltava. Yes, they were ruled by Poles since the 14th century, but before that (till ~1360) Halychyna was a part of the Great Principality of Halych-Volyn' (Velyke Knyazivstvo Halyts'ko-Volyns'ke), with princes who were Rus' (Roman Mstyslavych, Mstyslav Udatnyj, Danylo Romanovych, Lev Danylovych, Yuriy Trojdenovych). Present-day Halychany are direct descendants of the Rus' tribes that have lived there in the 9th - 14th centuries, and there is no link between them and Poles other than that the Polish kingdom ruled over them from ~1360 till its partition in the 18th century.
As for the modern Ukrainian language - its origins are in the lands near the Dnipro river. The first person who published poems in what is today perceived as the modern literary Ukrainian was Ivan Kotlyarevs'kyj, a noble from the Poltava region in east-central Ukraine (his great satirical poem titled Eneida was written in 1824). Taras Shevchenko, who is to the Ukrainian literature what Shakespeare was for the English literature, also was not a Halychanyn; he grew up in what now is the Chernihiv and the Kyiv oblasts.
The idea that Ukrainians originally spoke Russian until Halychany "exported" their "transitional" Russian-to-Polish dialect is one of the most atrocious lies, currently propagated by monsters like Dmytro Tabachnyk, a racist who calls Halychany "an inferior race who only recently learned how to wash their hands."


The part about ethnicity and culture reminds me of a conversation I had tonight in which I said Obama's not black. Not in the sense of black American culture. Absent foreign father, white mother and grandparents who raised him, growing up in Hawaii and Indonesia away from the black community (the closest he came to it was watching 'Soul Train' in Honolulu)... he's a white who happens to look like blacks.

I fail to see how this is relevant to Ukraine.
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« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2010, 09:11:57 AM »

Galicia is the home of the Ukrainian language, a transitional language between Russian and Polish,

You are wrong. Ukrainian vocabulary is distinct from Russian and Polish.
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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2010, 09:27:25 AM »

Most of the Ukraine including Kiev, the capital, historically is Russian.

Strongly disagree. Again, it's a subtle inconspicuous change of terms. Kyiv has been, historically, a town of "Rus'" (with soft "s" at the end). When Kyiv reached its status as the capital of Eastern Slavs (9th - 10th century AD), there was no such thing as "Russia" ("Rossiya"). What eventually turned out to be the Russian nation began in the 12th century, when prince Yuriy Dolgoruky built a township called Moskva (Finnish for roten water). In the 13th century Kyiv was completely destroyed by Mongols, but then completely rebuilt by the dynasty of Great Princes of Lithuania (Gyadiminides). In the 14th and early 15th century Kyiv was ruled by these Lithuanian princes and their najordomes, but the rulers by that time had already been quite "Rus'"-sified (spoke, wrote, and carried the administrative business in the tongue of the local population, which was the language of "Rus'" - ancestor of the modern vernacular Ukrainian). Moskva, however, developed separately; it was also run over by Mongols, but, rather than becoming re-Slavicised, essentially merged with the Golden Horde, becoming one of the Mongol-Tatar "uluses," and assuming the name "Great Principality of Muscovy" (Velikoe Knyazhestvo Moskovskoe"). Moscovites did not refer to themselves as "Rus'." In the 15th century, Kyiv fell under the power of Polish kings, as Lithuania and Poland merged into one "Rzecz Polpolita," a federative state with Krakow as its center and Roman Catholicism as its dominant religion; however, the Rus' population in the lands of Rzecz Polpolita remained Rus' by ethnicity and largely Orthodox by faith. They kept their Rus' language,eventually forming what are now Ukrainian and Belarussian languages. The Moscow lands remained under the Mongol-Tatar control till the 1480-s, when the Great Prince of Muscovy Ivan III refused to pay tribute to the Tatar Khan Ahmed. Throughout the 14th - 16th and early 17th century, the two nations (Rus'  - which was the ancestor to Ukrainains, and Moskva-Muscovy, which was the ancestor of the modern "Russian" nation (Russkiye") - developed separately and did not even have much communication between themselves. The merger between the two nations began only after the Pereyaslav treaty of 1654.

People from Galicia in the far west are closely related but not Russian. They were ruled by Poland (but are not Polish) from the 1300s until WWII. Closely related like the Spanish and Portuguese: even largely mutually intelligible languages (Galicia is the home of the Ukrainian language, a transitional language between Russian and Polish, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church) but different.

Serge, you must be joking! There is no such thing as "Galicia" in Eastern Slavic world. "Galicia" is a hilarious distortion of the Slavic toponym Halychyna. The people of Halychyna are as Ukrainian as the people from Kyiv or Poltava.

The Galicians say otherwise. Btw, the name of the region officially (in Latin) was "Russia."

Quote
Yes, they were ruled by Poles since the 14th century, but before that (till ~1360) Halychyna was a part of the Great Principality of Halych-Volyn' (Velyke Knyazivstvo Halyts'ko-Volyns'ke), with princes who were Rus' (Roman Mstyslavych, Mstyslav Udatnyj, Danylo Romanovych, Lev Danylovych, Yuriy Trojdenovych).

Yes, the same family that established Moscow and brought the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus' from Galicia to Moscow (Met. St. Peter), whose successors became the Patriarch of Moscow and All Rus'.

Quote
Present-day Halychany are direct descendants of the Rus' tribes that have lived there in the 9th - 14th centuries, and there is no link between them and Poles other than that the Polish kingdom ruled over them from ~1360 till its partition in the 18th century.
As for the modern Ukrainian language - its origins are in the lands near the Dnipro river. The first person who published poems in what is today perceived as the modern literary Ukrainian was Ivan Kotlyarevs'kyj, a noble from the Poltava region in east-central Ukraine (his great satirical poem titled Eneida was written in 1824). Taras Shevchenko, who is to the Ukrainian literature what Shakespeare was for the English literature, also was not a Halychanyn; he grew up in what now is the Chernihiv and the Kyiv oblasts.
The idea that Ukrainians originally spoke Russian until Halychany "exported" their "transitional" Russian-to-Polish dialect is one of the most atrocious lies, currently propagated by monsters like Dmytro Tabachnyk, a racist who calls Halychany "an inferior race who only recently learned how to wash their hands."

The part about ethnicity and culture reminds me of a conversation I had tonight in which I said Obama's not black. Not in the sense of black American culture. Absent foreign father, white mother and grandparents who raised him, growing up in Hawaii and Indonesia away from the black community (the closest he came to it was watching 'Soul Train' in Honolulu)... he's a white who happens to look like blacks.

I fail to see how this is relevant to Ukraine.
It's all in the perception.

Edited for quotes - mike.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 09:52:16 AM by mike » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2010, 09:53:58 AM »

Quote
Yes, they were ruled by Poles since the 14th century, but before that (till ~1360) Halychyna was a part of the Great Principality of Halych-Volyn' (Velyke Knyazivstvo Halyts'ko-Volyns'ke), with princes who were Rus' (Roman Mstyslavych, Mstyslav Udatnyj, Danylo Romanovych, Lev Danylovych, Yuriy Trojdenovych).

Yes, the same family that established Moscow and brought the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus' from Galicia to Moscow (Met. St. Peter), whose successors became the Patriarch of Moscow and All Rus'.

But this family ruled over Rus' (Rusyny, Rusychi) in the Halych-Volyn principality and over Ugro-Finnish tribes (yes, "infused" with Eastern Slavic blood, no doubt) in the Great Principality of Muscovy.

German kings ruled over Greeks and Bulgarians. Does it mean that Greeks and Bulgarians are German? Wink

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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2010, 11:27:38 AM »

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Yes, they were ruled by Poles since the 14th century, but before that (till ~1360) Halychyna was a part of the Great Principality of Halych-Volyn' (Velyke Knyazivstvo Halyts'ko-Volyns'ke), with princes who were Rus' (Roman Mstyslavych, Mstyslav Udatnyj, Danylo Romanovych, Lev Danylovych, Yuriy Trojdenovych).

Yes, the same family that established Moscow and brought the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus' from Galicia to Moscow (Met. St. Peter), whose successors became the Patriarch of Moscow and All Rus'.

But this family ruled over Rus' (Rusyny, Rusychi) in the Halych-Volyn principality and over Ugro-Finnish tribes (yes, "infused" with Eastern Slavic blood, no doubt) in the Great Principality of Muscovy.

German kings ruled over Greeks and Bulgarians. Does it mean that Greeks and Bulgarians are German? Wink



This family would refer to the Rurikids, correct?  Would it be safe to say that what are now Russians, Belorussians, and Ukrainians would have had a common heritage in that they were all an assortment of Slavs, Finno-Ugrics, Central Asiatics, Greeks, and Khazars all ruled over by a family of Swedish Vikings / Varyags and their Swedish Viking / Varyag retainers?
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2010, 12:32:05 PM »

Quote
Yes, they were ruled by Poles since the 14th century, but before that (till ~1360) Halychyna was a part of the Great Principality of Halych-Volyn' (Velyke Knyazivstvo Halyts'ko-Volyns'ke), with princes who were Rus' (Roman Mstyslavych, Mstyslav Udatnyj, Danylo Romanovych, Lev Danylovych, Yuriy Trojdenovych).

Yes, the same family that established Moscow and brought the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus' from Galicia to Moscow (Met. St. Peter), whose successors became the Patriarch of Moscow and All Rus'.

But this family ruled over Rus' (Rusyny, Rusychi) in the Halych-Volyn principality and over Ugro-Finnish tribes (yes, "infused" with Eastern Slavic blood, no doubt) in the Great Principality of Muscovy.

Yes, we have gone over that tangent. Several times.
I'd quote how often you bring up Russians being "Ugro-Finns"

In 988, of course. But since then, the population of "Rossiya" has received a lot of Rus'

like all the Rurikids. Including SS Volodymyr, Boris and Hlib and Yaraslav the Wise.

Quote
(=/=Ukrainian and Belarussian) genes.

Fixed that for you. No Ukrainains nor Belarussians (nor Russians for that matter) to have genes in 988. Just Norsified Ugro-Finn Rus' being Slavicized by their Slavic subjects.

Since you brought them up, I've noticed that Ukrainians who predicate their identify on {trying) destroying the Russians' having hit upon trying to recruit the Belorussians to their cause.  So far all Belorussians I know or have heard of want no part in it.  The only thing ever approaching it was a pamphlet put out by the Belarus in Chicago in submission to the Vatican at the celebration of the Millenium Baptism of Rus': it disowned any connection to St. Volodymyr/Vladimir (I could put in Uladzimi/er, but I don't know if it is appropriate in this context).

As for 988



Oh dear. Is that the Vyatichi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyatich
I see, those West Slavs turned East Slavs to populate Vladimir-Suzdal, including the Moscow basin, building those Slavic grads, like Moskva? Not to mention all those Slav Krivichs and Ilmen Slavs (who, like the Vyatichi, were related to West Slavs, in this case the Polabians/Wends, the ancestors of the Sorbs) in what was Rus', here in its heyday, now Russia?

Yes, I know that doesn't fit in the U"O"C-KP world view.

Since racial/racist "arguments" play such a role in the views of some on this this topic, I thought this might give some context:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Genetic_relations_of_European_nations.jpg

Oh, Isa, and to your dynastic lineages (I don't want to quote for it becomes too voluminous):

Beginning from that monk Philotheus, and his patron, Tsar Vasiliy "The One In The Dark" (he was blind), the court of the High Principality of Muscovy began to pursue the goal of becoming the Third Rome. So, they stole the name "Rus'", because they wanted to look like legitimate successors,
Stole? It was theirs, as legitimate heirs, Rurikid successors of their ancestor, St Vladimir/Volodymyr.

I am not arguing that the Rurikids who reigned over Suzdal and Ryazan' etc. were not the same family as the ones who were in Kyiv or Chernihiv. What I am saying is that the PEOPLE who lived in the domains ruled by prince Yuriy the Long Hands or by prince Andrei "Bogolubski" (that bloody bastard who burned Kyiv and stole our icon of the Most Holy Mother of God of Vysh'horod) were different from Rusy-Rusyny-Rusychi.

Really? Well according to this map here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/East_Slavic_tribes_peoples_8th_9th_century.jpg
there is quite a lot of Eastern Slavic tribes running around in what is now Russia (reaching up to Moscow) before the arrival of the Rus' (862), and a number of Turkic Bulgars running around what is now in Ukraine: Kiev was paying tribute to the Turkic Khazars when the Rus' arrived.
For comparison:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Kievan-rus-1015-1113-%28en%29.png
http://www.taiwandna.com/RussianEarlyRusMap.png
The area we are interested in is, on the top right map, the purple Rostov Principality, Great Russia's embryo. The bottom map shows in red "slavic settlements under Varangian [i.e. Rus'] control," east slavonic tribes in grey. The slavs had already gone from wandering tribes to settlers in grads, reaching to what was becoming the principality of Rostov-Suzdal-Vladimir-Moscow, so much that my and Quisling's ancestors knew the land ruled by our Varangian slavisized cousins, i.e. the Rus', as "the realm of towns/kingdom of cities":Garðaríki.  Btw, Quisling's and my great-grandmother's homeland got its name as the Northway, Norðvegr.  Your homeland (and Putin's homeland) had the name Austrvegr "Eastway," but it didn't stick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grad_(Slavic_settlement)
That pattern and movement predated Rus' rule of Kiev, even before the Rus' reached Kiev, and continued until it reached California.

And yes, the Finns were there, and in Sitka/New Archangel, Mother See of America, even as governors.

Gentics studies, alas, do not blame the Finns for the Russians:the same frequencies of the R1a haplogroup are found among Russians as  Shocked Ukrainians, 48-54%  Shocked.

It seems the Slavs oozing in Ukraine were oozing in Russia as well.

Btw, everywhere else dynasties determine nations. No Hapsburgs, no Austria. No King of France, no France. No King of Spain, no Spain.  Russia is different?

But yes, it is a tangent, in as much as an adopted son is a son. So a Finn who was baptized by St. Vladimir/Volodymyr's Church, swore fealty to Yuriy the Long Hands' heirs, and took up their language and culture is a Rus' as much as a Severian tribesman who was baptism by Metropolitan St. Michael in the Dnieper at Kiev.

As a side note, this zero-sum game that Fr. V. and others never tire of playing, trying to play Russia into a all or nothing corner, is foolish as it tests Russia's ability to play winner take all. And Russia has more than proven it can play that very well.


German kings ruled over Greeks

This German?

He died in exile and asked to be buried in his Greek uniform.  He also spent most of his fortune in exile in supporting the Cretan insurrection, which led to its eventual reunion to Greece, but kept his support clandestine, as not to make political/international problems for the dynasty which had succeeded him at Athens. The first painting is him at his arrival in Greece and planning the capital at Athens. The right is him in exile in Bavaria, a few years before his death.  In between, here he is being expelled from Greece and going into exile.

Seems he was Hellenized (although he remained a communicant with the Vatican, even when the Greek state made him head of the CoG's Holy Directing Synod.

and Bulgarians.


The First Bulgarian Empire was ruled by the Turkic Bulgars who were Slavicized.  The Secon Bulgarian Empire was ruled by Romanians/Vlachs were Slavicized.  The Principality of Bulgaria and then the Kingdom was ruled by a Germanized Hungarian family with descent from prior Bulgarian rulers. At Russian insistence, the heir was (re)baptized into the Bulgarian Orthodox Church (something not required of the German (in origin) family ruling Romania, also involved in the autocephaly of the CoR).

Does it mean that Greeks and Bulgarians are German? Wink
Seems the Greeks and Bulgarians Hellenized and Slavicized them instead. Just like what the Slavs in Novgorod, Kiev, Vladimir, Suzdal and Moscow did to their common Norse ruling family over Garðaríki of Austvegr, i.e. Kievan Rus'.
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2010, 12:37:57 PM »

Quote
Yes, they were ruled by Poles since the 14th century, but before that (till ~1360) Halychyna was a part of the Great Principality of Halych-Volyn' (Velyke Knyazivstvo Halyts'ko-Volyns'ke), with princes who were Rus' (Roman Mstyslavych, Mstyslav Udatnyj, Danylo Romanovych, Lev Danylovych, Yuriy Trojdenovych).

Yes, the same family that established Moscow and brought the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus' from Galicia to Moscow (Met. St. Peter), whose successors became the Patriarch of Moscow and All Rus'.

But this family ruled over Rus' (Rusyny, Rusychi) in the Halych-Volyn principality and over Ugro-Finnish tribes (yes, "infused" with Eastern Slavic blood, no doubt) in the Great Principality of Muscovy.

German kings ruled over Greeks and Bulgarians. Does it mean that Greeks and Bulgarians are German? Wink



This family would refer to the Rurikids, correct?  Would it be safe to say that what are now Russians, Belorussians, and Ukrainians would have had a common heritage in that they were all an assortment of Slavs, Finno-Ugrics, Central Asiatics, Greeks, and Khazars all ruled over by a family of Swedish Vikings / Varyags and their Swedish Viking / Varyag retainers?

Yes, except that DNA studies show that Rurik was a Swedized Finno-Ugric.
Since racial/racist "arguments" play such a role in the views of some on this this topic

Only in your imagination.
I'd quote how often you bring up Russians being "Ugro-Finns" and 'ergo' having nothing to do with the Rus' (who came across the Gulf of Finland), but I don't have the time, and you do it frequent enough that even the casual reader with see it.

You pride yourself on having to accept science.  Genetics is a science.
Quote
It was found that Rurik was of the Finno-Ugrian descent (haplogroup N1c1, earlier known as N3a, probably beginning with the following markers : 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 9 9). However, from some historical sources it comes out that he was born in Sweden on the Roslagen seashore (north of Stockholm).
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=results

The homeland of the Rus' and Rurik is in red

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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2010, 04:00:36 PM »

I am not sure that geography and history should be the sole determinants. One's language, religion, culture and ultimately, one's choice are just as important. For example, I do not believe, as a Macedono-Bulgarian on my father's side, that a Macedonian language, people, and culture exist except in the minds and hearts of those are call themselves Macedonian. I must defer to them and accept their claim for themselves, particularly because they are the majority population of the sovereign nation of Macedonia. Similarly, there is no use arguing that there are no entity as Ukraine, language as Ukrainian, or that there are no Ukrainians in the sovereign nation of Ukraine. If the people of Ukraine choose to join Russia, OK. If Russia forcibly annexes Ukraine, not OK. The past attempts at cultural and ethnic genocides in Ukraine by the Russians were just as wrong as those attempts by the Serbians and the Greeks against the Macedono-Bulgarians.
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« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2010, 04:26:54 PM »


I have a friend who was adopted.  It has been discovered that his birth parents were English/Scottish.  However, his adopted parents were Ukrainian (who mostly speak English).

He speaks very little Ukrainian, and yet even knowing his genetic parents were English, considers himself to be Ukrainian.

It is what you know and love ...

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« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2010, 04:40:05 PM »

An easy way to judge whether you are Ukrainian, is to notice whether or not your blood starts to boil, a dark haze comes before your eyes and steam curls out of your ears when folks like The young fogey refer to Ukraine, as "the" Ukraine.

Wink






Then I must be Ukrainian, too! My Ukrainian advisors (great folks!) would be pleased.
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« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2010, 04:44:53 PM »


Wink

I'll send you a recipe for varenyki, holubtsi, borsch, etc.

Welcome to the clan!
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« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2010, 06:39:35 PM »

Does it mean that Greeks and Bulgarians are German? Wink
Seems the Greeks and Bulgarians Hellenized and Slavicized them instead. Just like what the Slavs in Novgorod, Kiev, Vladimir, Suzdal and Moscow did to their common Norse ruling family over Garðaríki of Austvegr, i.e. Kievan Rus'.

Wait, wasn't Volodymyr Monomach, the grandfather of Yuriy Dolgorukyj already "Slavicized" by those Rus' people who lived near the Dnipro river?

And when his grandson Yuriy went to the place called Rotten Water (Moskva in Finnish), wasn't he already Slavicized?

Did he have to be further Slavicized by Finnish tribes who lived there?

Or, rather, these Finnish tribes were themselves partially Slavicized by mass migration of Slavs from Kyiv Rus', when the latter fall victim to Mongols in the 1240-s?
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« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2010, 06:46:11 PM »

Political reply split off and moved to Politics.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=29784.0
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« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2010, 11:27:08 PM »

I am not sure that geography and history should be the sole determinants. One's language, religion, culture and ultimately, one's choice are just as important. For example, I do not believe, as a Macedono-Bulgarian on my father's side, that a Macedonian language, people, and culture exist except in the minds and hearts of those are call themselves Macedonian. I must defer to them and accept their claim for themselves, particularly because they are the majority population of the sovereign nation of Macedonia. Similarly, there is no use arguing that there are no entity as Ukraine, language as Ukrainian, or that there are no Ukrainians in the sovereign nation of Ukraine. If the people of Ukraine choose to join Russia, OK. If Russia forcibly annexes Ukraine, not OK. The past attempts at cultural and ethnic genocides in Ukraine by the Russians were just as wrong as those attempts by the Serbians and the Greeks against the Macedono-Bulgarians.
wow, that's an interesting comment!  then, by all means, I am Slovak!  My grandfather (Memory Eternal) used to sing to me Slovak songs, tell me stories, like Baba Jaga, and serve me ethnic dishes, etc.  (lol, my eyes got teary just thinking about him sharing his culture with me!)

would it be ok, then, when someone asks me what my heritage is, to just say "I'm Slovak"?

I've alwayse hated being so many things, but the Slovak culture has been the only one present in my life. 

I also remember him telling me stories of Juraj Jánošík, a Slovak Robin Hood.
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« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2010, 11:42:58 PM »

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« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2010, 12:40:28 AM »

Some of my very favorite, very belowed Ukrainians who had/have no Ukrainian "blood" or have only part of it:

1. Colonel Illyash Karaimovych, a Cossack leader, 17th century. As his name suggests, he was an ethnic Karaim (Khozar), but a brave fighter for Ukraine, a great military organizer, an interesting personality.

2. Colonel Kost' (or Kistka) Hordienko (real name lord William Ashbliss), another brave Cossack leader, 18th century, a close friend and supporter of Het'man Ivan Mazepa. Ashbliss-Hordienko was an ethnic Scotsman.

3. Mariya Vilinskaya, a woman from an aristocratic Russian family who became an outstanding Ukrainian writer in the 1800-s (wrote under the pen name Marko Vovchok).

4. Vasyl' Vyshyvanyj (real name Wilhelm Habsburg), a prince from the famous Austrian royal dynasty who became a leader of the Ukrainian "Sichovi Stril'tsi" division in the 1910's-1920-s. A skilled horseman and an outstanding military commander, he fought against the overwhelming Red Army force. Later immigrated, but was kidnapped by Soviet agents in the late 1940-s and tortured to death in the Kyiv "Luk'janivka" prison in 1948.

5. Riko Yary (Richard Franz Marian Yary), an Austrian (probably of a mixed Polish, Czech, Hungarian and Jewish descent) who was one of the top leaders of the OUN (Organization of Ukrainian nationalists) and a close friend of such top figures in the Ukrainian nationalist movement as Yevhen Konovalets' and Stepan Bandera. Fought against the Red Army in 1918-1920 and against the Soviets in 1942-43. Was arrested by the Nazis and put in a concentration camp in 1943. Survived the camp and died in Austria in 1969. Was married to a Jewish woman, Olga Rosalie Spielvogel, thus defying the myth that Ukrainian nationalists were anti-Semitic. Hard to say what made Yary serve the Ukrainian cause with such passion; his family had a legend that they descend from a Ukrainian Cossack who was wounded during the siege of Vienna and remained in Austria.

6. Mykola Khvylyovyj (real name Fitilyov), the son of a Russian father and a Ukrainian mother, who became a leading Ukrainian prose writer and publicist of the 1920-s. In 1928, wrote a series of articles in Communist Ukrainian magazines where he argued that a decent Ukrainian writer must know the world literature and have the highest standards of the WORLD literature to be his standards, rather than to copy present-day Russian writers. Khvylyovyj's slogan, "AWAY FROM MOSCOW!" was, of course, misinterpreted as "bourgeois nationalism." His name was maligned and ridiculed, pushing him to commit suicide in the early 1930-s.

7. Leonid Kiselyov, a Kyiv-born poet whose ethnicity was 100% Russian. Was a prodigy, wrote poetry in Russian beginning from the age of 9. In his teens, became greatly interested in poetry of Taras Shevchenko. At the age of 20-12, made several trips to Ukrainian countryside and after that switched to writing poetry in Ukrainian. Became a friend of several young Ukrainian poets, prose writers and literary critics who secretly held rather radical nationalist (or patriotic) views (Ivan Dzyuba, Vasyl' Stus, Dmytro Zatons'kyj et al.) In 1968, died of acute leukemia, being only 23 and a half years old. The poetry written by Lyonya over the last year of his life was considered, after his death, to be one of the finest examples of modern Ukrainian lyrical and political poetry. (When I was a student at Kyiv Medical University, I briefly dated a girl, also a 100% ethnic Russian, whose family was very close with Lyonya's parents. That was in the early 1980-s, long after his death.)

8. Nataliya Rostyslavivna Mazepa, nee Kavetskaya, a 100% Russian by ethnicity, born in Samara on the Volga river. When her family moved to Kyiv in 1944, she became very interested in the Ukrainian language, literature, and history, discovering for herself that Ukraine is a country and a nation with its own identity and role in the world. She graduated from the Kyiv State University and became a professor of Russian literature, but wrote articles and books in Ukrainian as well as in Russian. In the 1960-s - 1970-s, Nataliya Rostyslavivna and her husband, Volodymyr Ivanovych Mazepa, became members of an underground organization of radical Ukrainian patriots to which Lyonya Kiselyov also belonged. They called themselves "Rukh," the world that means "Movement." Later, during the Perestroika years, Rukh, or People's Movement of Ukraine, became legal and started to function as a leading force in the fight for Ukrainian independence. Currently, Nataliya Rostyslavivna lives in Kyiv (she is already 80 years old but extremely energetic and active), speaks exclusively Ukrainian to all who understand it, and works a lot with patriotic-minded youth organizations. She and her husband have been close friends with my parents since the 1950-s. I regard N.R. as my second mother, and Lesya and I always visit her little apartment when we are in Kyiv.
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« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2010, 02:18:08 AM »

I am (in all) Slovak, Polish, German, Irish, English, and I JUST found out that I have Ukranian blood in me.  my dad saif that on my Polish side, I have Ukranian ancestry.  

can someone please explain to me, was Ukranian part of Russia? (would that make me Russian?!)  

I really know nothing about Ukrain, and would be very pleased if someone could explain a bit about this country.  thanks!

Trevor,

"Rus" was a huge country 1000 years ago. The capitol was Kiev in modern-day Ukraine. The country was so big that after all kinds of Polish and Mongolian conquests, parts like Ukraine and Moscow started making their own dialects of "Rus"-ian.

Then it divided into parts- Belarus, Carpatho-Rus, Rus Major (Moscow), and Rus Minor (Ukraine).

So first it was one country - Rus.
Then the princes all fought eachother
Then the Polish and Mongols took over.
Then Moscow Russia united most of it.
Then the Soviet Union took back West Ukraine from Poland.
Then the Soviet Union fell apart and they are back where they were 800 years ago.
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« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2010, 03:33:26 AM »

Does it mean that Greeks and Bulgarians are German? Wink
Seems the Greeks and Bulgarians Hellenized and Slavicized them instead. Just like what the Slavs in Novgorod, Kiev, Vladimir, Suzdal and Moscow did to their common Norse ruling family over Garðaríki of Austvegr, i.e. Kievan Rus'.

Wait, wasn't Volodymyr Monomach, the grandfather of Yuriy Dolgorukyj already "Slavicized" by those Rus' people who lived near the Dnipro river?
No, it seems Volodymyr/Vladimir Monomach's grandfather Yaroslav I the Wise was already Slavicized in Rostov and Novgorod, being sent there by his father St. Volodymyr/Vladimir the Great. Yaroslav's mother, Rogneda/Ragnhild of Polotsk, was born to a Viking evidently from Norvegr/Norway, a scion of the kings founding Norway and Sweden (and well known to Beowulf) who settled in Polotsk like Rurik did in Novgorod. While Yaraslav ruled in Russia, he founded the Slavic grad of Yaroslav, which served as the capital of Russia when the Poles occupied Moscow.
Yaraslav himself ruled in Novgorod before taking Kiev from the usurping brother Sviatopolk, son in law to the king of Poland and perhaps St. Vladimir/Volodymyr's nephew rather than son (he raped the mother too soon to sort out the parentage). St. Vladimir/Volodymyr's father, Svyatoslav, the first of the Rurikids to bear a Slavic name, evidently was Slavicized growing up and reiging in Novgorod.  When he took power in 945, the Rus', Norse/Slav and inbetween, covered the area in the red:

The orange indicates his realm of cities, Gradiriki, at his death in 972.  Moscow lies on the borderland of the red line, and Sviatoslav made the local Slav tribe the Vyatichi  vassals in 966: by the time of the reign of his son Volodymyr/Vladimir they populated the basin on the Moskva (which may mean "dark," "turbid" or even "bear river." Shortly after subjugating the Vyatichi, he established his capital at Pereyaslavets, a slavic grad of the Turkic Bulgars in the Romanian/Vlach area of the Danube (it is now in Romania).

Before Sviatopolk, the family were Norse.

So to recap;
Rurik, i.e.. Rørik: according to his DNA Finno-Ugric, but evidently Norsified. Settled in the Slavic grads of Novgorod, populated by the slavic tribes of the Slovenes and Kvirichs and the Finno-Ugric Chuds, Meryas and Veses. Married Efanda Edvina Alfrinda Ingrid of Novgorod, i.e. another Norse in Russia.

Igor, i.e. Ingvar , his son (?): born at Novgorod and succeeded his uncle (?) Oleg, i.e. Helgi, at Kiev. Married Olga, i.e. Helga of Pskov, another Norse in Russia.

Sviatoslav (<Helgi Rørik?), his son: first of the line slavicized, evidently by the Slavs around Novgorod. By his concubine Malusha, of unknown origin but it seems Varangian Norse of some sort, he had his son

St. Vladimir/Volodymyr the Great: ruled in Novgorod, where he came of age, before taking Kiev.

Yaroslav, his son: born of Norse princess of Polotsk. Ruled Rostov and then Novgorod for his father, both in Russia and the former the cradle of "Muscovy." Married the princess of Sweden Ingegerd Olofsdattir, and had his son Vsevolod who received Rostov and Suzdal, predecessors of Moscow, as his appanage, in addition to Pereyaslav.

Vsevolod his son: married the daughter of the Emperoor of the Romans, Constatine IX Monomachos.

Vladimir, his son: inherited Rostov-Suzdal, and founded Vladimir, another predecessor of Moscow, in his Northern Rus' lands. He married, among others (including Turkic), a noblewoman from the Empire of the Romans (Greek?), who bore his son

Yuriy, who inherited Rostov, moved the capital from there to Suzdal, and built up Moscow.  From there he reached into the affairs way down in Kiev, hence "the Long-Armed," taking Kiev in 1147.  

So Yuriy was half Greek/Roman by descent on his mother's side, and another quarter on his father's side, the other quarter being half Swedish and the other half Norse of other sort.  The only Finno-Ugric came from Rurik's ancestry.

Quote
A current DNA research project by Dr. Andrzej Bajor of Poland, under the auspices of the Family Tree DNA Rurikid Dynasty Project, seeks to more accurately place Rurik within the light of history and out of the shadows of legend, while simultaneously trying to map his modern descendants. The DNA results of 191 men claiming to be Rurikid descendants indicate that most (68%) of the them had haplogroup N1C1, formerly designated N3a1 typical for Finno-Ugrian people.Further genetic studies seem to indicate the existence of two major haplogroups among modern Rurikids: the descendants of Vladimir II Monomakh (Monomakhoviches) and some others are of N1c1 group (130 people or 68%), while the descendants of a junior prince from the branch of Oleg I of Chernigov (Olgoviches) and some others (total 45 peoples or 24%) are of R1a and R1b haplogroups typical for Slavic, Germanic and Celts peoples. According to the Russian Newsweek magazine it indicates that it could have been a non-paternity event in the Chernihiv branch during wars between royal clans
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?fixed_columns=on&section=yresults
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mozhayski/teksty/ydna.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik#Genetic_research

Most of the Slavicizing of the family went on in the Slavic lands now in Russia, part of Kievan Rus' from its beginning.

And when his grandson Yuriy went to the place called Rotten Water (Moskva in Finnish), wasn't he already Slavicized?

Yes, the family had already lived in Rostov-Suzdal-Vladimir-Moscow and Novgorod for generations and was Slavicized, but not like the Moscow Basin: the family adopted the Slavic tongue, but the Moscow basin was settled by the Viatichi, a Slavic tribe, who populated the region almost two centuries before Yuriy build up Moscow, another slavic grad.

Did he have to be further Slavicized by Finnish tribes who lived there?
No. The Slavic tribe that had lived there since the time of when Yuriy's ancestors came to Novgorod were already the same people with those Slavs who had Slavicized the family in Novgorod, Rostov and Suzdal and the same people who furthered the Slav grads in Yaroslav and Vladimir before Moscow.

Or, rather, these Finnish tribes were themselves partially Slavicized by mass migration of Slavs from Kyiv Rus', when the latter fall victim to Mongols in the 1240-s?
No, that is about 4 centuries too late. The Viatichi had already migrated by the days of Rurik from across the Vistula to the Oka basin, including the Moskva, replacing the Balts, by the time of St. Volodymyr/Vladimir. The Viatichi disappear as a seperate tribal entity by 1197 (the last direct reference to them)-1215 (when the last holdouts to slavic paganism converted), Yuriy's family building on the vassalage of the Viatichi to incorporate them into the Principality of Rostov-Suzdal-Vladimir.  The Viatichi's original grad lay on Borovitsky Hill, now buried under the Kremlin that Yuriy started in 1156.
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« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2010, 06:14:39 AM »

I also remember him telling me stories of Juraj Jánošík, a Slovak Robin Hood.

He was Polish!!!

Well, there are quarrels between Poles and Slovaks what nationality was he.
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« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2010, 09:27:40 AM »


would it be ok, then, when someone asks me what my heritage is, to just say "I'm Slovak"?

I've alwayse hated being so many things, but the Slovak culture has been the only one present in my life. 


Trevor you should "call yourself" whatever you want.  Nobody can or should dictate to you who you are.   Whichever "nationality" makes you feel happy...that's who you are...and God bless you and your nationality!

BIG HUG!

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« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2010, 09:29:02 AM »

Isa, were Vyatychi a Slavic tribe?

Does the name Vyatka have a Slavic etymology? How about Tula, Ryazan', Perm'...?

About Novgorod and its population in the 9th - 10th centuries... There are different versions, I guess it's a separate and long story.

In any case, the top rulers of the Kyiv Rus' were most definitely Slavicized in Kyiv. And chronicles have sentences like, "that year prince Andrei of Volodymyr, or price Vsevolod of Suzdal WENT TO WAR ON RUS'" (meaning, declared war to Rus' - to what are now lands around the Dnipro river in its middle, where the city of Kyiv was, and is).
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« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2010, 12:01:05 PM »

Isa, were Vyatychi a Slavic tribe?

That's what the studies (and the historical record) shows:
The early Slavs: culture and society in early medieval Eastern Europe By Paul M. Barford
http://books.google.com/books?id=1Z9ItAtbJ5AC&pg=PA241&dq=Slav+tribal+units+Viatichi&hl=en&ei=6UKKTOOvEYmWnAfssv33Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Slav%20tribal%20units%20Viatichi&f=false
Christianization and the rise of Christian monarchy: Scandinavia, Central Europe and Rus' 900-1200 ... By Nóra Berend
http://books.google.com/books?id=UmFrVUb5DSwC&pg=PA392&lpg=PA392&dq=Viatichi&source=bl&ots=V1xdHZrFzB&sig=2_bh3JPViDXNZJGhjttw0Dps_q0&hl=en&ei=7UGKTOnmAqGanAedk9z7Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Viatichi&f=false
Rus' in the ethnic nomenclature of the Povest' vremennykh let Paul Bushkovitch
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/cmr_0008-0160_1971_num_12_3_1845
This last goes into some detail on names, pointing out that Finno-Ugric tribes have feminine singular names while Slavic tribes are masculine singular except for the Rus', which is feminine singular.
But I guess that is just Soviet propoganda, snuck into the Primary Russian Chronicle with 8 centuries foresight in Kiev.

The Slavic pagans lasted the longest among the Viatichi:Temple Rings in Rus'
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/trmain/tr1main.html

Does the name Vyatka have a Slavic etymology?
Not according to the above: it is related to Veneti/Venedi, the earliest mentioned Slav tribe, and located on the Vistula (whence came the Viatichi) and Vandal.
Quote
According to Julius Pokorný, the ethnonym Venetī (singular *Venetos) is derived from Proto Indo-European root *u̯en- 'to strive; to wish for, to love'. As shown by the comparative material, Germanic languages had two terms of different origin: Old High German Winida 'Wende' points to Pre-Germanic *Venétos, while Lat.-Germ. Venedi (as attested in Tacitus) and Old English Winedas 'Wends' call for Pre-Germanic *Venetós. Etymologically related words include Latin venus, -eris 'love, passion, grace'; Sanskrit vanas- 'lust, zest', vani- 'wish, desire'; Old Irish fine (< Proto-Celtic *venjā) 'kinship, kinfolk, alliance, tribe, family'; Old Norse vinr, Old Saxon, Old High German wini, Old Frisian, Old English wine 'Friend' (Pokorny 1959: 1146 - 1147; Steinacher 2002: 33).
Which would make them relatives, in name at least, to the Vandals and Wend/Sorbians. That would dove tail with the orgin on the Rus', whose homeland became incorporated into the "Kingdom of the Swedes, Goths and Vandals."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venedi

The German/Gothic connection wouldn't be unusal: Slavs and Germans roamed side by side. Much of Slavonic terms come from Germanic, e.g. Церковь<Κυριακη (οικια) "Lord's house," via Gothic, Czar<Caesar, via Gothic.

How about Tula, Ryazan', Perm'...?

Since they are feminine singular, it would seem not.  Are Chicago, Illinois, Cahokia, Peoria.... English?

About Novgorod and its population in the 9th - 10th centuries... There are different versions, I guess it's a separate and long story.
No, the same long story.

In any case, the top rulers of the Kyiv Rus' were most definitely Slavicized in Kyiv.
Quote
Because they had no contact with the Slavs in the grads of Novgorod, Rostov, Polotsk, and Suzdal?

And chronicles have sentences like, "that year prince Andrei of Volodymyr, or price Vsevolod of Suzdal WENT TO WAR ON RUS'" (meaning, declared war to Rus' - to what are now lands around the Dnipro river in its middle, where the city of Kyiv was, and is).

"Byzantine" chronicles have sentences like "the Latins attacked the Romans."

Btw, for you to be consistent, it would be Andrei of Vladimir.  I do recall that Andrei and Vsevolod had to take on their relatives and conquer their appanages to make it to the top as Grand Duke/Great Prince.  Is that what you are refering to?  What years are you citing?  Some context, please.
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« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2010, 05:17:12 PM »

Isa, were Vyatychi a Slavic tribe?

That's what the studies (and the historical record) shows:
The early Slavs: culture and society in early medieval Eastern Europe By Paul M. Barford
http://books.google.com/books?id=1Z9ItAtbJ5AC&pg=PA241&dq=Slav+tribal+units+Viatichi&hl=en&ei=6UKKTOOvEYmWnAfssv33Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Slav%20tribal%20units%20Viatichi&f=false
Christianization and the rise of Christian monarchy: Scandinavia, Central Europe and Rus' 900-1200 ... By Nóra Berend
http://books.google.com/books?id=UmFrVUb5DSwC&pg=PA392&lpg=PA392&dq=Viatichi&source=bl&ots=V1xdHZrFzB&sig=2_bh3JPViDXNZJGhjttw0Dps_q0&hl=en&ei=7UGKTOnmAqGanAedk9z7Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Viatichi&f=false
Rus' in the ethnic nomenclature of the Povest' vremennykh let Paul Bushkovitch
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/cmr_0008-0160_1971_num_12_3_1845
This last goes into some detail on names, pointing out that Finno-Ugric tribes have feminine singular names while Slavic tribes are masculine singular except for the Rus', which is feminine singular.
But I guess that is just Soviet propoganda, snuck into the Primary Russian Chronicle with 8 centuries foresight in Kiev.

It's not a Soviet propaganda, it's a Tzarist propaganda sold as history.

It's what Taras Shevchenko characterized (in his poem "A Dream," for which he was deported to Orenburg steppe for 12 years) this way:

"You read Shafarik, and Ganka,
And you study all the tongues of Slavic tribes...
And what about our tongue? - Oh, well,
We will learn to speak it when Germans will tell us to!
You know, the Germans, they are the people
Who are supposed to narrate our history to us."

I rest my case, Your Honor.
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« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2010, 04:11:09 AM »

Isa, were Vyatychi a Slavic tribe?

That's what the studies (and the historical record) shows:
The early Slavs: culture and society in early medieval Eastern Europe By Paul M. Barford
http://books.google.com/books?id=1Z9ItAtbJ5AC&pg=PA241&dq=Slav+tribal+units+Viatichi&hl=en&ei=6UKKTOOvEYmWnAfssv33Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Slav%20tribal%20units%20Viatichi&f=false
Christianization and the rise of Christian monarchy: Scandinavia, Central Europe and Rus' 900-1200 ... By Nóra Berend
http://books.google.com/books?id=UmFrVUb5DSwC&pg=PA392&lpg=PA392&dq=Viatichi&source=bl&ots=V1xdHZrFzB&sig=2_bh3JPViDXNZJGhjttw0Dps_q0&hl=en&ei=7UGKTOnmAqGanAedk9z7Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Viatichi&f=false
Rus' in the ethnic nomenclature of the Povest' vremennykh let Paul Bushkovitch
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/cmr_0008-0160_1971_num_12_3_1845
This last goes into some detail on names, pointing out that Finno-Ugric tribes have feminine singular names while Slavic tribes are masculine singular except for the Rus', which is feminine singular.
But I guess that is just Soviet propoganda, snuck into the Primary Russian Chronicle with 8 centuries foresight in Kiev.

It's not a Soviet propaganda, it's a Tzarist propaganda sold as history.

It's what Taras Shevchenko characterized (in his poem "A Dream," for which he was deported to Orenburg steppe for 12 years) this way:

"You read Shafarik, and Ganka,
And you study all the tongues of Slavic tribes...
And what about our tongue? - Oh, well,
We will learn to speak it when Germans will tell us to!
You know, the Germans, they are the people
Who are supposed to narrate our history to us."

I rest my case, Your Honor.

Just wanted to add that I believe connecting Vyatychi with Vistula and then with Vandals (just because all three start with V?) is about as "scientific" as saying, after Young Fogey, that Galicia in Western Ukraine is closely related to galicia in Spain and Portugal. Or to Galaty in Romania, or to Galatians in the Bible.  laugh
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