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Author Topic: The Catholic Route to Birth Control  (Read 28206 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2010, 07:59:24 PM »

I was actually glad when pope John Paul II of Rome stuck to his guns and commemorated the anniversary.

Commemorated the anniversary of Humanae Vitae? Why would you be glad about that if you don't agree with the encyclical?
Doesn't affect me any, It infuriated the secularists, which is a good thing.

No, just when you teach something that explicitly contradicts when the Fathers taught.

But does it really contradict? St. Paul talks about abstaining from marital relations at times, doesn't he? That's what NFP involves as well: abstaining.

Working also involves abstaining. St. Paul wasn't taking about that either.

And how's that working for you?  A majority of the bishops, we are told, opposed the contraceptive scheme of Humanae Vitae. Well, they don't count, because the pope issued Humanae Vitae. So you are admitting that the pope=magisterium?  Otherwise, can't see your point.

It's working out great. Never been happier. It sure beats all of the Protestant confusion I came from.
LOL. That doesn't say much.

If the Magisterium of the Church was truly against Humanae Vitae, we would be hearing about the Catholic Church holding a council to overturn it, but that didn't happen and still hasn't happened.

So we can assume it's infallible. That's not what Pastor Aeternus says, nor Vatican apologists when we ask on that point.

Once again, just a reminder, Magisterium equals the Pope and all of the Bishops,
Once I heard a priest say from the pulpit on EWTN that in the seminary they told them that the "pope has 51% of the Church's infallibilty."

so "a majority of the bishops" opposing Humanae Vitae doesn't equate to the Magisterium denying it.

No, just underlining the only vote that counts.

Being the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, she doesn't need one.
Correction: The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has one. Wink

You mean the one who took the uncanonical decision of a local council, and at the emperor's command abandoned its apostolic roots and presumed to impose it on the Catholic Church, causing schism?

Since we haven't lost the Fathers' mind, that isn't a problem for us.
It seems that Orthodoxy no longer thinks with the mind of the Fathers. The Fathers wanted no form of contraception and for sex to be only for procreation, right?
Wrong.
Before getting into that, I'll just reiterate the absurdity of characerizing Orthodoxy on contraception. It would be more justified to characterize the Vatican on its mandated clerical celibacy But that doesn't come up to the top of our list of grivences.

Your Fathers you cite do not say contraception, at least no definition which would distinguish ABC from NFP (so called).

Well, Orthodoxy allows NFP and artificial contraception, correct?
NFP yes, artificial contraception, depends what you mean by the term.

The Catholic Church allows only NFP and then only if the couples are using it while also being open to life.
your patristic sources do not allow NFP, and would see it (and strictly speaking HV contradicts itself on this) like living together while also being open to marriage.

What does this mean? It means that a couple cannot use NFP with the intent to never have children. Contraception is not just a pill or a condom, contraception is also a mindset and an attitude, which is why NFP even has the potential to be sinful. When couples put their own wills and plans above God's will, that is where trouble comes in.
So really, there is no difference between NFP and coitus interruptus, the latter being, based on success/failure rate, more open to life and with the same intent.

Now, neither the Catholic Church nor the Orthodox Church's stance on contraception look exactly like the Early Church Fathers, but ours seems to be closer since we didn't just throw in the towel and allow artificial contraception too,
No, you make an articifical distinction between "artifical" and natural.

and only allow NFP with restrictions. What is someone irritating is that many Orthodox claim that have had no development, but the current stance on contraception amongst Eastern Orthodoxy certainly seems like a development if not a downright innovation.
Only if you wish to see it that way.

At least we admit that we develop.
not in this you don't: I've seen no admission that HV is an innovation.

Speaking of innovation, something that rarely it seems gets brought up is the advances in scientific knowledge. Not contraception-whether the ancient methods worked as the ancients thought has no bearing on intention-but in what is really involved in conception.  Many, like St. Clement, seem to make it clear that he held to the humunculus theory, that semen has a "little human" in it, like an embryo. Spilling seed would act like an abortifacient preventing implantation. Since we now know that such is not the case, we cannot proceed in ignorance on it.
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« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2010, 10:20:35 PM »


It seems that Orthodoxy no longer thinks with the mind of the Fathers. The Fathers wanted no form of contraception and for sex to be only for procreation, right? Well, Orthodoxy allows NFP and artificial contraception, correct? The Catholic Church allows only NFP and then only if the couples are using it while also being open to life. What does this mean? It means that a couple cannot use NFP with the intent to never have children. Contraception is not just a pill or a condom, contraception is also a mindset and an attitude, which is why NFP even has the potential to be sinful. When couples put their own wills and plans above God's will, that is where trouble comes in.
I think we, as Catholics,  have to be fair on what the Orthodox position is on contraception.  An E.  Orthodox priest told me that it would be a sin for a married couple to use contraception with the intent to never have children. He said that generally speaking, they would be allowed to use it after having two or three children. So in a sense, according to what I was told by this priest,  the Orthodox couple still has to be open to life, at least to the extent of having two or three children, which is not too much different from the RC position on using NFP, is it?
Now as far as the RC teaching on artificial birth control, why do we not hear more about it from the pulpit? It seems like there should be an open discussion as to what is and what is not required from all married Catholic couples in this regard, and concerning the seriousness of this sin.   
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« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2010, 11:39:51 PM »

Doesn't affect me any, It infuriated the secularists, which is a good thing.

I get the feeling you like infuriating people, or at least trying to.

Working also involves abstaining. St. Paul wasn't taking about that either.

He was talking about abstaining from sexual relations for a time, and that is exactly what is involved in NFP.


LOL. That doesn't say much.

Did you ever tell me what your faith was prior to becoming Orthodox? If you did I missed it.

Once I heard a priest say from the pulpit on EWTN that in the seminary they told them that the "pope has 51% of the Church's infallibilty."

I'm not quite sure where they're getting that figure. The Pope has the authority to teach infallibly due to his Petrine Office, and the Magisterium of the Church has the authority to teach infallibly since we know from Scripture that the Church has the authority to "bind and loose." Not sure where these percentages are coming from.

No, just underlining the only vote that counts.

The Church's.

You mean the one who took the uncanonical decision of a local council, and at the emperor's command abandoned its apostolic roots and presumed to impose it on the Catholic Church, causing schism?

That's not how I remember it (because I was there, of course Tongue ). I do remember a bunch of Eastern Bishops rebelling against Blessed St. Peter and his See and breaking away and forming their own church. See...I can polemical and uncharitable too, but where does it get us?

No, you make an articifical distinction between "artifical" and natural.

Our distinction between NFP and artificial contraception is hardly "artificial." Using the natural fertility cycle of a woman to space pregnancies is hardly the same as throwing some latex between a husband and wife or taking a pill.

not in this you don't: I've seen no admission that HV is an innovation.

Development.

Speaking of innovation, something that rarely it seems gets brought up is the advances in scientific knowledge. Not contraception-whether the ancient methods worked as the ancients thought has no bearing on intention-but in what is really involved in conception.  Many, like St. Clement, seem to make it clear that he held to the humunculus theory, that semen has a "little human" in it, like an embryo. Spilling seed would act like an abortifacient preventing implantation. Since we now know that such is not the case, we cannot proceed in ignorance on it.

And I don't hear anyone in the Catholic Church making the claim that semen has little humans in it, so what's your point?
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« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2010, 11:48:04 PM »


The Pope has the authority to teach infallibly due to his Petrine Office, and the Magisterium of the Church has the authority to teach infallibly

I'd love to see that last phrase substantiated!   Has there been an addendum to Pastor Aeternus infallibilising the bishops?
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« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2010, 11:54:59 PM »


That's not how I remember it (because I was there, of course Tongue ). I do remember a bunch of Eastern Bishops rebelling against Blessed St. Peter and his See and breaking away and forming their own church.

At the time of the Schism it was not a "bunch of Easten bishops rebelling."  It was in fact the majority of the bishops of the Catholic Church.  At that time in history the Catholics of the East outnumbered those of the West.

Rome, a minority Church, removed itself from communion with the majority Church and utlised the schism to pursue its own delusions of grandeur unhampered.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #95 on: September 13, 2010, 12:03:59 AM »

Doesn't affect me any, It infuriated the secularists, which is a good thing.

I get the feeling you like infuriating people, or at least trying to.
Shocked

Working also involves abstaining. St. Paul wasn't taking about that either.
He was talking about abstaining from sexual relations for a time, and that is exactly what is involved in NFP.
Working also involves abstaining from sexual relations for a time, and St. Paul wasn't taking about that either.

LOL. That doesn't say much.
Did you ever tell me what your faith was prior to becoming Orthodox? If you did I missed it.
You asked? I must have missed it. "Evangelical Lutheran."

Once I heard a priest say from the pulpit on EWTN that in the seminary they told them that the "pope has 51% of the Church's infallibilty."
I'm not quite sure where they're getting that figure. The Pope has the authority to teach infallibly due to his Petrine Office, and the Magisterium of the Church has the authority to teach infallibly since we know from Scripture that the Church has the authority to "bind and loose." Not sure where these percentages are coming from.
Just reporting. As for the "Magisterium of the church" that in essence means the same as the pope, because the bishops seperate from him cannot speak infallibly. Which of course makes them all auxiliary bishops.

No, just underlining the only vote that counts.
The Church's.
Le pape dit: L'église? c'est moi! The pope says: the church? I am the church.

You mean the one who took the uncanonical decision of a local council, and at the emperor's command abandoned its apostolic roots and presumed to impose it on the Catholic Church, causing schism?
That's not how I remember it (because I was there, of course Tongue ). I do remember a bunch of Eastern Bishops rebelling against Blessed St. Peter and his See and breaking away and forming their own church.
381, at Constantinople. Reiterated the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

See...I can polemical and uncharitable too, but where does it get us?
Honest talk.

No, you make an articifical distinction between "artifical" and natural.
Our distinction between NFP and artificial contraception is hardly "artificial." Using the natural fertility cycle of a woman to space pregnancies is hardly the same as throwing some latex between a husband and wife or taking a pill.
Or withdrawing a....: he has to eventually.  And St. Clement, cited by those seeking to make this artificial distinction, calls what you call natural "against nature": "Why, even unreasoning beasts know enough not to mate at certain times. To indulge in intercourse without intending children is to outrage nature, whom should take as our instructor."

not in this you don't: I've seen no admission that HV is an innovation.
Development.
The pill is a development. HV is an innovation, at least according to those it would have as authorities.

Speaking of innovation, something that rarely it seems gets brought up is the advances in scientific knowledge. Not contraception-whether the ancient methods worked as the ancients thought has no bearing on intention-but in what is really involved in conception.  Many, like St. Clement, seem to make it clear that he held to the humunculus theory, that semen has a "little human" in it, like an embryo. Spilling seed would act like an abortifacient preventing implantation. Since we now know that such is not the case, we cannot proceed in ignorance on it.
And I don't hear anyone in the Catholic Church making the claim that semen has little humans in it, so what's your point?
Your patristic authorities did.  Since your argument hinges so much on "natural law" (the HV argues from no other basis), it is subject to what the knowledge of nature is.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 12:04:38 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2010, 12:42:42 AM »

The Holy Fathers whose thoughts we have hold this teaching unanimously, that sex without the intent to conceive and the possibility to conceive is gravely sinful.
But what about the case of a woman who because of some unforeseen medical issue was rendered sterile and unable to have children. Then she does not have the possibility to conceive. So it seems unfair to condemn this unfortunate  lady and her husband  to hell if she agrees to have relations with her husband without the possibility or intention to conceive. It is not her fault that she has this condition.

Don't blame me!  Wink  What you have described it the teaching of the early Church Fathers. (Not sure about the hell part though.)  I keep saying that both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church have laid aside this aspect of their teaching, but Catholics are a bit frightened to look that fact in the face!


The real issue is the tussle between continence and condoms.

Continence is FAR more unpopular than condoms, for many.

From where I sit Orthodoxy saw the handwriting on the wall and ducked.

Seems simple enough to me to fix.  Get on off the Condom Train and get over it.

The reality, and the liberal Catholics hate it too so you are not alone, is the fact that many more young people want the discipline of continence than the license of condoms.  Think of all those failed dissenters...too old and stogy now to do something REALLY spiritually daring...

M.
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« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2010, 12:44:12 AM »


That's not how I remember it (because I was there, of course Tongue ). I do remember a bunch of Eastern Bishops rebelling against Blessed St. Peter and his See and breaking away and forming their own church.

At the time of the Schism it was not a "bunch of Easten bishops rebelling."  It was in fact the majority of the bishops of the Catholic Church.  At that time in history the Catholics of the East outnumbered those of the West.

Rome, a minority Church, removed itself from communion with the majority Church and utlised the schism to pursue its own delusions of grandeur unhampered.

This is not good.
According to the sad chart you have shown us, the number of Orthodox faithful has declined dramatically over the centuries. Why not put a little more effort into proselyletising non-Catholics for Orthodoxy? Also, why not join Catholics and others in our pro-life marches. (Which I am sure that you have already, but take a look at the miserable abortion statistics in some Orthodox countries.)
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« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2010, 12:51:19 AM »

The Holy Fathers whose thoughts we have hold this teaching unanimously, that sex without the intent to conceive and the possibility to conceive is gravely sinful.
But what about the case of a woman who because of some unforeseen medical issue was rendered sterile and unable to have children. Then she does not have the possibility to conceive. So it seems unfair to condemn this unfortunate  lady and her husband  to hell if she agrees to have relations with her husband without the possibility or intention to conceive. It is not her fault that she has this condition.

Don't blame me!  Wink  What you have described it the teaching of the early Church Fathers. (Not sure about the hell part though.)  I keep saying that both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church have laid aside this aspect of their teaching, but Catholics are a bit frightened to look that fact in the face!


Right. No, I did not mean to blame you, Father Ambrose, so I apologize if it sounded that way.
But it brings up a point which is sometimes confusing for Catholics trying to understand the Orthodox teaching on Holy Tradition. Who has the authority to decide what to reject and what to accept as far as what is taught by the Holy Fathers.
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« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2010, 02:38:55 AM »


According to the sad chart you have shown us, the number of Orthodox faithful has declined dramatically over the centuries.

.... Orthodoxy has been constrained by two mighty enemies on either side, Roman Catholics to the West and Muslims to the East.

Non timebo milia populi circumdantis me. (Psalm 3)

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but take a look at the miserable abortion statistics in some Orthodox countries

Did you see the birth rate statistics I supplied yesterday from the CIA Factbooks, for 2008?   Despite popular perception, the figures show that the birth rates in the Eastern Orthodox countries are higher than those in Catholic Western European countries.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2010, 02:52:17 AM »

The Holy Fathers whose thoughts we have hold this teaching unanimously, that sex without the intent to conceive and the possibility to conceive is gravely sinful.
But what about the case of a woman who because of some unforeseen medical issue was rendered sterile and unable to have children. Then she does not have the possibility to conceive. So it seems unfair to condemn this unfortunate  lady and her husband  to hell if she agrees to have relations with her husband without the possibility or intention to conceive. It is not her fault that she has this condition.

Don't blame me!  Wink  What you have described it the teaching of the early Church Fathers. (Not sure about the hell part though.)  I keep saying that both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church have laid aside this aspect of their teaching, but Catholics are a bit frightened to look that fact in the face!


The real issue is the tussle between continence and condoms.

Continence is FAR more unpopular than condoms, for many.
LOL. You might be suprised how unpopulaar condoms are.

Quote
From where I sit Orthodoxy saw the handwriting on the wall and ducked.
From where you sit? Luther at least stood.

Quote
Seems simple enough to me to fix.  Get on off the Condom Train and get over it.

Yes, most want the pill anyway. The men at least.

Quote
The reality, and the liberal Catholics hate it too so you are not alone, is the fact that many more young people want the discipline of continence than the license of condoms.  Think of all those failed dissenters...too old and stogy now to do something REALLY spiritually daring...
Well, if the yuggin's are too continent, there'll be nobody around.
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« Reply #101 on: September 13, 2010, 02:58:21 AM »


The real issue is the tussle between continence and condoms.

Continence is FAR more unpopular than condoms, for many.

From where I sit Orthodoxy saw the handwriting on the wall and ducked.

Seems simple enough to me to fix.  Get on off the Condom Train and get over it.

You know, the Orthodox are not in fact trying to force the Catholics to use condoms.

You have to wonder why the Catholics are so determined to force their ways on us.

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.
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« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2010, 10:31:04 AM »


The real issue is the tussle between continence and condoms.

Continence is FAR more unpopular than condoms, for many.

From where I sit Orthodoxy saw the handwriting on the wall and ducked.

Seems simple enough to me to fix.  Get on off the Condom Train and get over it.

You know, the Orthodox are not in fact trying to force the Catholics to use condoms.

You have to wonder why the Catholics are so determined to force their ways on us.

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.

Couple realities to counter this scare tactic:

1.  The only confession whose members, clergy and laity, who INSIST that ANYONE change in fundamentally major ways is Orthodoxy's demands that the Catholic Church dump a thousand years of teaching and understanding revealed truth.

2.  Orthodox hierarchs are well aware that IF the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy are going to put a united face on for the world in terms of moral issues then the moral issue of artificial birth control is going to be front and center, and Orthodoxy will have to at least change the precepts and make ALL artificial birth control, for males and females an exception rather than the rule.

3.  In the SAME vein as no. 2 above, there will have to be clear indications that BOTH confessions are making strong efforts to teach abstenence, chastity and continence to you youth and young adults in the faith!!

4.  No. 3 above is ALREADY happening among some Orthodox shepherds and their flock, as it happens in the Catholic Church...and nobody is dying from the shock.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

You fellows will find your liberal talk and attitudes will be shunned voluntarily by the faithful remnant.  In fact, it already is being ignored.

Mary
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« Reply #103 on: September 13, 2010, 10:54:08 AM »

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.

That is funny that you say that. A friend of mine who was recently received into the Orthodox Church said that the only way that our two Churches could reunite would essentially be if the Pope became Orthodox and all of us followed him. That sure doesn't sound like a willingness to have dialogue or try and work out differences; it sounds more like "convert or perish."
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« Reply #104 on: September 13, 2010, 11:07:57 AM »

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.

That is funny that you say that. A friend of mine who was recently received into the Orthodox Church said that the only way that our two Churches could reunite would essentially be if the Pope became Orthodox and all of us followed him. That sure doesn't sound like a willingness to have dialogue or try and work out differences;

we don't work out heresies.

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it sounds more like "convert or perish."
Indeed.
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« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2010, 11:12:49 AM »


The real issue is the tussle between continence and condoms.

Continence is FAR more unpopular than condoms, for many.

From where I sit Orthodoxy saw the handwriting on the wall and ducked.

Seems simple enough to me to fix.  Get on off the Condom Train and get over it.

You know, the Orthodox are not in fact trying to force the Catholics to use condoms.

You have to wonder why the Catholics are so determined to force their ways on us.

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.

Couple realities to counter this scare tactic:

1.  The only confession whose members, clergy and laity, who INSIST that ANYONE change in fundamentally major ways is Orthodoxy's demands that the Catholic Church dump a thousand years of teaching and understanding revealed truth.

2.  Orthodox hierarchs are well aware that IF the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy are going to put a united face on for the world in terms of moral issues then the moral issue of artificial birth control is going to be front and center, and Orthodoxy will have to at least change the precepts and make ALL artificial birth control, for males and females an exception rather than the rule.

"Artificial" birth control is a rule? I missed that at my chrismation and wedding.  I don't remember being told I had to practice any birth control.

Quote
3.  In the SAME vein as no. 2 above, there will have to be clear indications that BOTH confessions are making strong efforts to teach abstenence, chastity and continence to you youth and young adults in the faith!!
So what would change?

Quote
4.  No. 3 above is ALREADY happening among some Orthodox shepherds and their flock, as it happens in the Catholic Church...and nobody is dying from the shock.
 
What was the change?

Quote
You fellows will find your liberal talk and attitudes will be shunned voluntarily by the faithful remnant.  In fact, it already is being ignored.
Don't know what you are talking about.
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« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2010, 11:19:19 AM »

Again I guess I would take this more seriously if I ever met a Catholic that followed or believed in HV. Whats the saying? Practice what you......? Darn can't remember it at the moment. Smiley

Fr Ambrose, the badgering will never end! It is just the tactic of incrementalism when you agree to this much new negotiations will begin with a new goal.
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« Reply #107 on: September 13, 2010, 11:30:26 AM »


You fellows will find your liberal talk and attitudes will be shunned voluntarily by the faithful remnant.  In fact, it already is being ignored.

Mary

Well, that's  bit over the top.  As I pointed out yesterday, the teaching on contraception is not *mine* but I am faithful to what my bishops teach.  Are you advising disobedience?

The bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church have a unified teaching which they declared to the faithful in Section XII.3 of the important 2000 Synodal document

"BASES OF THE SOCIAL CONCEPT
OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH"


http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/419128.html

also here
http://www.incommunion.org/articles/the-orthodox-church-and-society/introduction


The bishops of the Episcopal Council in 2000, about 220 of them
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« Reply #108 on: September 13, 2010, 11:32:54 AM »


2.  Orthodox hierarchs are well aware that IF the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy are going to put a united face on for the world in terms of moral issues then the moral issue of artificial birth control is going to be front and center, and Orthodoxy will have to at least change the precepts and make ALL artificial birth control, for males and females an exception rather than the rule.


It surprises me that you believe you know the hearts and minds of the Orthodox bishops.  It seems presumptuous to speak as you have.
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« Reply #109 on: September 13, 2010, 11:36:13 AM »

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.

That is funny that you say that. A friend of mine who was recently received into the Orthodox Church said that the only way that our two Churches could reunite would essentially be if the Pope became Orthodox and all of us followed him. That sure doesn't sound like a willingness to have dialogue or try and work out differences; it sounds more like "convert or perish."

Orthodoxy is very clear anmd makes no secret of it - Catholics and Anglicans, and all other Christian Churches, will need to bring their faith into line with the orthoodx faith, 100%.  Then we may unify.  Nobody needs to submit to anybody.  But the faith we hold must be one and the same.
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« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2010, 11:48:17 AM »

The bishops of the Episcopal Council in 2000, about 220 of them

I notice some statues in the background? I thought that the Orthodox Church did not allow statues as according to Orthodox teaching this would be against the Commandment forbidding  *graven* or 3D images? Why would these Orthodox bishops choose to ignore this commandment ?
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« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2010, 11:58:35 AM »

Orthodoxy is very clear anmd makes no secret of it - Catholics and Anglicans, and all other Christian Churches, will need to bring their faith into line with the orthoodx faith, 100%.  Then we may unify.  Nobody needs to submit to anybody.  But the faith we hold must be one and the same.
So for unity,  Catholics will not be allowed any instrumental music, such as organ music, during the liturgy, but only vocal music? And no statues either, but only icons in accord with the commandment against graven images?
Is there a list of the 100% Orthodox teachings somewhere that Catholics have to fall into line with? For example, does it include toll houses or the strict fasting during the lenten season that I have seen posted? BTW, how many Orthodox observe this strict and severe  lenten fasting 100%? Would it include the requirement to use the Julian calendar as some Orthodox insist on it for theological reasons?
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« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2010, 12:03:05 PM »

The bishops of the Episcopal Council in 2000, about 220 of them

I notice some statues in the background? I thought that the Orthodox Church did not allow statues as according to Orthodox teaching this would be against the Commandment forbidding  *graven* or 3D images? Why would these Orthodox bishops choose to ignore this commandment ?

No problem with secular statues outside of a liturgical setting.   Russia is awash in statues of many important and historical personages.

These statues run around all four sides of the newly rebuild Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow.  The statues depict important historical figures in Russian history, both laymen and bishops.  They are not intended for veneration.

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« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2010, 12:11:25 PM »

Orthodoxy is very clear anmd makes no secret of it - Catholics and Anglicans, and all other Christian Churches, will need to bring their faith into line with the orthoodx faith, 100%.  Then we may unify.  Nobody needs to submit to anybody.  But the faith we hold must be one and the same.
So for unity,  Catholics will not be allowed any instrumental music, such as organ music, during the liturgy, but only vocal music? And no statues either, but only icons in accord with the commandment against graven images?
Is there a list of the 100% Orthodox teachings somewhere that Catholics have to fall into line with? For example, does it include toll houses or the strict fasting during the lenten season that I have seen posted? BTW, how many Orthodox observe this strict and severe  lenten fasting 100%? Would it include the requirement to use the Julian calendar as some Orthodox insist on it for theological reasons?

I think that the only thing here which the Orthodox would insist on is a return to earlier fasting standards.

After all, my own Irish great grandparents, only 100 years ago,  observed the "Black Fast" during Lent. (Look up Black Fast in the Catholic Encyclopedia.)   It is basically identical to what the Orthodox do.  No reason why Catholics cannot return to their own fasting traditions.

As to how many Irishmen and how many Russians observe the fasts - common sense would say that not all of them did or do.
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« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2010, 12:25:29 PM »

Orthodoxy is very clear anmd makes no secret of it - Catholics and Anglicans, and all other Christian Churches, will need to bring their faith into line with the orthoodx faith, 100%.  Then we may unify.  Nobody needs to submit to anybody.  But the faith we hold must be one and the same.

So, in your opinion, could or would anything change in the Orthodox Church if such a reunion ever took place?
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« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2010, 12:30:31 PM »


2.  Orthodox hierarchs are well aware that IF the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy are going to put a united face on for the world in terms of moral issues then the moral issue of artificial birth control is going to be front and center, and Orthodoxy will have to at least change the precepts and make ALL artificial birth control, for males and females an exception rather than the rule.


It surprises me that you believe you know the hearts and minds of the Orthodox bishops.  It seems presumptuous to speak as you have.

Well that's true.  They may not be nearly as aware as I credit them as being.

Perhaps they think that the Catholic Church will yield on the precepts in Humanae Vitae or that we will speak with "one voice" with a group of bishops who preach water, drink wine when it comes to artificial birth control.

As I have noted in the past:  We are not ready to speak with one voice on moral issues in Europe or anywhere else....and I am talking about formal teaching, not the sinfulness of members...eh?

M.
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« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2010, 12:30:32 PM »

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.

That is funny that you say that. A friend of mine who was recently received into the Orthodox Church said that the only way that our two Churches could reunite would essentially be if the Pope became Orthodox and all of us followed him. That sure doesn't sound like a willingness to have dialogue or try and work out differences; it sounds more like "convert or perish."

Orthodoxy is very clear anmd makes no secret of it - Catholics and Anglicans, and all other Christian Churches, will need to bring their faith into line with the orthoodx faith, 100%.  Then we may unify.  Nobody needs to submit to anybody.  But the faith we hold must be one and the same.

LOL  Well what that means is being worked out now between Catholics and Orthodox.   As I have noted before there may not be much at all to change in terms of doctrines of the faith on either side...except for improved understanding of what precisely is being taught at the moment.


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« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2010, 12:30:46 PM »

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.

That is funny that you say that. A friend of mine who was recently received into the Orthodox Church said that the only way that our two Churches could reunite would essentially be if the Pope became Orthodox and all of us followed him. That sure doesn't sound like a willingness to have dialogue or try and work out differences;

we don't work out heresies.


That's progress!!  Since the Catholic Church teaches no heresies that need to be worked out.

Perhaps we can get down to some of the really important work then for the restoration of communion!!

Mary
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« Reply #118 on: September 13, 2010, 12:30:46 PM »


You fellows will find your liberal talk and attitudes will be shunned voluntarily by the faithful remnant.  In fact, it already is being ignored.

Mary

Well, that's  bit over the top.  As I pointed out yesterday, the teaching on contraception is not *mine* but I am faithful to what my bishops teach.  Are you advising disobedience?

Oh my no!!...

This is what I was talking about when I said that they saw the hand-writing on the wall and ducked by not taking a formal stand against all forms of artificial birth control, and leaving the pastoral considerations to be worked out locally.

Mary
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« Reply #119 on: September 13, 2010, 02:17:40 PM »

The bishops of the Episcopal Council in 2000, about 220 of them

I notice some statues in the background? I thought that the Orthodox Church did not allow statues as according to Orthodox teaching this would be against the Commandment forbidding  *graven* or 3D images? Why would these Orthodox bishops choose to ignore this commandment ?

No problem with secular statues outside of a liturgical setting.   Russia is awash in statues of many important and historical personages.

These statues run around all four sides of the newly rebuild Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow.  The statues depict important historical figures in Russian history, both laymen and bishops.  They are not intended for veneration.


They are also the only original part of the building: Stalin housed them in a museum and IIRC a subway station instead of destroying them like the icons.
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« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2010, 02:19:44 PM »


2.  Orthodox hierarchs are well aware that IF the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy are going to put a united face on for the world in terms of moral issues then the moral issue of artificial birth control is going to be front and center, and Orthodoxy will have to at least change the precepts and make ALL artificial birth control, for males and females an exception rather than the rule.


It surprises me that you believe you know the hearts and minds of the Orthodox bishops.  It seems presumptuous to speak as you have.

Well that's true.  They may not be nearly as aware as I credit them as being.

Perhaps they think that the Catholic Church will yield on the precepts in Humanae Vitae or that we will speak with "one voice" with a group of bishops who preach water, drink wine when it comes to artificial birth control.

As I have noted in the past:  We are not ready to speak with one voice on moral issues in Europe or anywhere else....and I am talking about formal teaching, not the sinfulness of members...eh?
With the Voice of the Vatican. no thank you
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« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2010, 02:22:03 PM »

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.

That is funny that you say that. A friend of mine who was recently received into the Orthodox Church said that the only way that our two Churches could reunite would essentially be if the Pope became Orthodox and all of us followed him. That sure doesn't sound like a willingness to have dialogue or try and work out differences;

we don't work out heresies.


That's progress!!  Since the Catholic Church teaches no heresies that need to be worked out.
filioque.

Quote
Perhaps we can get down to some of the really important work then for the restoration of communion!!
Renounce Toledo, Pastor Aeternas, the IC, and then we can start talking.
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« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2010, 02:24:19 PM »


You fellows will find your liberal talk and attitudes will be shunned voluntarily by the faithful remnant.  In fact, it already is being ignored.

Mary

Well, that's  bit over the top.  As I pointed out yesterday, the teaching on contraception is not *mine* but I am faithful to what my bishops teach.  Are you advising disobedience?

Oh my no!!...

This is what I was talking about when I said that they saw the hand-writing on the wall and ducked by not taking a formal stand against all forms of artificial birth control, and leaving the pastoral considerations to be worked out locally.
Why should they take a formal stand spouting your party line?
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« Reply #123 on: September 13, 2010, 02:49:48 PM »

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.

That is funny that you say that. A friend of mine who was recently received into the Orthodox Church said that the only way that our two Churches could reunite would essentially be if the Pope became Orthodox and all of us followed him. That sure doesn't sound like a willingness to have dialogue or try and work out differences;

we don't work out heresies.


That's progress!!  Since the Catholic Church teaches no heresies that need to be worked out.
filioque.

Quote
Perhaps we can get down to some of the really important work then for the restoration of communion!!
Renounce Toledo, Pastor Aeternas, the IC, and then we can start talking.

Not necessary to change anything.  That's why we're talking now at the highest levels. 

There's no need to insist on great changes.  There's a need to seek greater understanding. 

Unless you missed it, we are already talking and I have not heard on thing said about the Catholic Church becoming precisely like Orthodoxy and spending years in the penitent's box as Father Ambrose likes to go on about.

M.
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« Reply #124 on: September 13, 2010, 02:58:35 PM »

Hilarious. I guess I need to start drinking the kool aid and then wow full communion.
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« Reply #125 on: September 13, 2010, 03:10:46 PM »

It makes you think twice about any union.... we'll be badgered to death and made to conform to Roman Catholic ways.

That is funny that you say that. A friend of mine who was recently received into the Orthodox Church said that the only way that our two Churches could reunite would essentially be if the Pope became Orthodox and all of us followed him. That sure doesn't sound like a willingness to have dialogue or try and work out differences;

we don't work out heresies.


That's progress!!  Since the Catholic Church teaches no heresies that need to be worked out.
filioque.

Quote
Perhaps we can get down to some of the really important work then for the restoration of communion!!
Renounce Toledo, Pastor Aeternas, the IC, and then we can start talking.

Not necessary to change anything.  That's why we're talking now at the highest levels. 

There's no need to insist on great changes.  There's a need to seek greater understanding. 
We got higher levels.


Quote
Unless you missed it, we are already talking and I have not heard on thing said about the Catholic Church becoming precisely like Orthodoxy and spending years in the penitent's box as Father Ambrose likes to go on about.
The Catholic Church is precisely like Orthodoxy.  your Vatican, well...
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« Reply #126 on: September 13, 2010, 03:20:02 PM »



Unless you missed it, we are already talking and I have not heard on thing said about the Catholic Church becoming precisely like Orthodoxy and spending years in the penitent's box as Father Ambrose likes to go on about.

M.
Some, like Father A,  would like us all to do penance over the sack of Constantinople. It's quite funny because not only have I never been to "Constantinople" but such a place no longer even exists. I have, in fact, never sacked Constantinople. lol
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« Reply #127 on: September 13, 2010, 04:08:18 PM »


You fellows will find your liberal talk and attitudes will be shunned voluntarily by the faithful remnant.  In fact, it already is being ignored.

Mary

Well, that's  bit over the top.  As I pointed out yesterday, the teaching on contraception is not *mine* but I am faithful to what my bishops teach.  Are you advising disobedience?

Oh my no!!...

This is what I was talking about when I said that they saw the hand-writing on the wall and ducked by not taking a formal stand against all forms of artificial birth control, and leaving the pastoral considerations to be worked out locally.
Why should they take a formal stand spouting your party line?

Why should they spend time talking about how we profess the same moral teachings?...or at least as much time as they've spent over the past few years?

Apparently Orthodox hierarchs are pushing that one.

Personally I think that has actually less chance of producing common ground than doctrinal discussions.

So don't ask me, ask your bishops.

M.
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« Reply #128 on: September 13, 2010, 04:08:18 PM »

Hilarious. I guess I need to start drinking the kool aid and then wow full communion.

Sorry you feel that way.  There are other Orthodox who are actually actively seeking a deeper and better understanding of Catholic teaching in its own right, before they start to compare things superficially.

M.
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« Reply #129 on: September 13, 2010, 04:08:19 PM »





Some folks in Orthodoxy are actually aware that your patrimony is also the patrimony of the Catholic Church...so you can stand there and flex but you can't go very fast or far by denying that.

M.
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« Reply #130 on: September 13, 2010, 09:56:34 PM »

[
As I have noted in the past:  We are not ready to speak with one voice on moral issues in Europe or anywhere else....and I am talking about formal teaching, not the sinfulness of members...eh?

Your dismal outlook is depressing.  Despite differences over issues such as contraception and divorce, there is much more around which we can unite and speak of to Western Europe.

You speak about "formal teaching" and "not the sinfulness of members"?  When 90% of the members are engaging in the sinfulness, what it is that you imagine the Muslims and the non-believers take notice of?  The reality of how Christianity is lived by its faithful, something the non-believers see and experience almost every day?  Or the unheeded publications from the Vatican?  Please, let's touch reality for a moment!  I often think that the reality of Orthodoxy's teaching on contraception is appreciated by outsiders.  Our teaching and the lives of our faithful coincide.  Whereas the Catholic teaching does not coincide and the reality is seen as amounting to great hypocrisy.
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« Reply #131 on: September 13, 2010, 10:03:44 PM »


That's progress!!  Since the Catholic Church teaches no heresies that need to be worked out.

Shall we start with this one?

"No heresy has ever raised up so radically and so completely against the God-Man Christ
and His Church as has the Papacy, with its dogma of the infallible Pope-man. There is no
doubt: this dogma is the heresy of heresies."


Saint Justin Popovic, "Man and God-Man", Athens, 1987


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Perhaps we can get down to some of the really important work then for the restoration of communion!!

The first important work is really the abolishment of the papacy.  Until that occurs we are dancing on the fringes.
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« Reply #132 on: September 13, 2010, 10:10:47 PM »

[
Unless you missed it, we are already talking and I have not heard on thing said about the Catholic Church becoming precisely like Orthodoxy and spending years in the penitent's box as Father Ambrose likes to go on about.

There you go!  Telling porkies about what I have said. Tch! tch!   Penitent's box?  No, Mary, what I said was that the Roman Catholic Church has fallen ill from being in schism from the Church for 1000 years.  It needs a long time of recuperation when it returns.   And when it does, common sense says that an ailing man on the road to recovery is not handed the reins of world government.
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« Reply #133 on: September 13, 2010, 10:11:47 PM »


You fellows will find your liberal talk and attitudes will be shunned voluntarily by the faithful remnant.  In fact, it already is being ignored.

Mary

Well, that's  bit over the top.  As I pointed out yesterday, the teaching on contraception is not *mine* but I am faithful to what my bishops teach.  Are you advising disobedience?

Oh my no!!...

This is what I was talking about when I said that they saw the hand-writing on the wall and ducked by not taking a formal stand against all forms of artificial birth control, and leaving the pastoral considerations to be worked out locally.
Why should they take a formal stand spouting your party line?

Why should they spend time talking about how we profess the same moral teachings?...or at least as much time as they've spent over the past few years?

Apparently Orthodox hierarchs are pushing that one.

Personally I think that has actually less chance of producing common ground than doctrinal discussions.

So don't ask me, ask your bishops.
Oh, I always do. But on the Orthodox teachings of our Catholic Church.  But since my bishop happens to have left the Vatican's communion, I don't imagine he wastes much time on its teachings.
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« Reply #134 on: September 13, 2010, 10:14:16 PM »





Some folks in Orthodoxy are actually aware that your patrimony is also the patrimony of the Catholic Church...so you can stand there and flex but you can't go very fast or far by denying that.
Yes. SS. Photios, Gregory Palamas and Mark of Ephesus, heros of the Vatican.

We've stayed put. So we have gone neither fast nor far. Your Vatican after Vatican II has both gone far and fast to.....
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