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Author Topic: The Catholic Route to Birth Control  (Read 28249 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #360 on: March 01, 2011, 02:07:31 PM »

And you are only digging your own hole deeper.
LOL. You're the one doing some heavy shovelin' there.

There are no Church Fathers who espoused anything remotely close to your position.

That pastoring be left to pastors, and not dogmatic papers? All the Church Fathers espoused that.


It would be a serious error to say that the Catholic Church does not also make necessary room for pastoral decisions, case by case.


That's what I just said.

As for the Vatican, the development in the Roman penitentiary which came into bloom in Humanae Vitae, a docmatic document, whose inanity I saw clearly when witnessing a discussion on fertility based on it.  The discussion was between clergy of the Vatican (I don't know/recall if they were specifically moral theologians or what). They were agonizing over the need of fertility specialists to obtain a sample from the husband from diagnosis. Masturbation was of course out, but the thought of collecting it in a condom with the wife "destroying the procreative-unitive marital act" horrified them.  They all readily agreed that if a pin hole was made in the condom, that would restore the "procreatve-unitive" nature, and would be perfectly moral.  Ah, the smell of freshly baked Corban! Not sure SS. Clement, Jerome or Lactianus would agree...

But then again that's what you get when you have no idea of what you are talking about and have to invent a theory called natural law to fill in the gaping gaps of your knowledge.
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« Reply #361 on: March 01, 2011, 02:22:54 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.


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ialmisry
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« Reply #362 on: March 01, 2011, 02:30:57 PM »

We can ask:  name one Father who approved the use of NFP?  The answer is simple: NOT one!

The Fathers condemned all marital sex which

1. Was not intended to create a child

2.  Was not able to create a child.

They saw much of the sexual relationships which we accept today as an abomination before the Lord, such as sex when a woman is past the age of child bearing or when a couple is infertile.  The Church no longer accepts these teachings of the Church Fathers.

It is because the teaching of Pope Paul VI in "Humanae Vitae" is contrary to the teaching of the Fathers that we do not find even one quote from them in the Pope's statement.
Interesting. So the Eastern Orthodox Church can just throw out Patristic consensus when their teachings are inconvenient? Nice. And you say we are the heretics......
you are aware that gnosticism and Manicheism are heresies, no?

That a number, even a large number (and we are not dealing here with a large number), of Fathers say silly things that resemble each other does not make Patristic consensus, especially when it contradicts the practice and worship of the Church.

So St. Jerome could claim that the blood of martyrdom does not remove the defilement of marriage, and others could wag their fingers in disapproval that the married should be ashamed of what they did, "acting like animals" (and refering only to just the fact of intercourse, not frequency or purpose)," and claim that the Patriarchs cease to have realtions after they had children (belied by Scripture: Genesis 26:8 ) etc., but no such views are sustained by the prayers the Church says in marrying a couple.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:32:50 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #363 on: March 01, 2011, 02:32:06 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.
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« Reply #364 on: March 01, 2011, 02:34:38 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #365 on: March 01, 2011, 02:38:50 PM »

Again, name one father who allowed for articificial birth control.
Just for kicks, I searched for "natural family planning," "birth control," "sex" in the original "Catholic Encyclopedia." Nothing came up. "Onanism" only brought up the article on Hypnotism:
Quote
Hypnotism has not only been cried up as a therapeutic resource, it has also been applied in pediatry and in pedagogy. Durand (of Gros) is the true initiator of this method, but it is Bérillon who has claimed a place for it in science, failing to distinguish between pediatry, which is related to medicine, and pedagogy, which is the province of the directors of free and conscious education. Suggestion would be in place for serious perversions or inveterate vices — kleptomaniac impulses, impulses to lying, debauchery, sloth, indecency, indocility, onanism, etc. Without going so far as Bérillon, Liébeault and Liégeois of Nancy claim to have reformed vicious and depraved children in this way and to have made excellent persons of them. They have cited some cures, but have not stated how long the good effects lasted. Education by hypnosis alone is not to be taken seriously; it does not correspond to the essential demands of education, which is the joint work of two — an intelligent, voluntary, effective collaboration of pupil and teacher.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07604b.htm
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:39:47 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #366 on: March 01, 2011, 02:39:22 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
because you evidently do not have a real answer.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #367 on: March 01, 2011, 02:39:41 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
because you evidently do not have a real answer.
Because you don't have a real question.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #368 on: March 01, 2011, 02:46:03 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
because you evidently do not have a real answer.
Because you don't have a real question.
She claims a Catholic Church baptized here. Was that Constantinople? Alexandria? Antioch? Jerusalem? Russia? Georgia? Serbia? Romania? Bulgaria? Cyprus? the Church of Greece? Albania? Poland? the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia? The Orthodox Church in America?  They are the only Catholic Churches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church within what I cage as EM's lifetime (I don't think she is older than 75, and probably much younger). Take your pick.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #369 on: March 01, 2011, 02:47:04 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
because you evidently do not have a real answer.
Because you don't have a real question.
She claims a Catholic Church baptized here. Was that Constantinople? Alexandria? Antioch? Jerusalem? Russia? Georgia? Serbia? Romania? Bulgaria? Cyprus? the Church of Greece? Albania? Poland? the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia? The Orthodox Church in America?  They are the only Catholic Churches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church within what I cage as EM's lifetime (I don't think she is older than 75, and probably much younger). Take your pick.
Oh, I see the problem. Your premise if faulty.
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« Reply #370 on: March 01, 2011, 02:56:02 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
because you evidently do not have a real answer.
Because you don't have a real question.
She claims a Catholic Church baptized here. Was that Constantinople? Alexandria? Antioch? Jerusalem? Russia? Georgia? Serbia? Romania? Bulgaria? Cyprus? the Church of Greece? Albania? Poland? the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia? The Orthodox Church in America?  They are the only Catholic Churches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church within what I cage as EM's lifetime (I don't think she is older than 75, and probably much younger). Take your pick.
Oh, I see the problem. Your premise if faulty.
That I take EM's word for it that she was baptized by a Catholic Church. That's the premise that needs to be put on firmer ground, like a rock.

Or are you saying she is older?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:56:38 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #371 on: March 01, 2011, 02:57:32 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
because you evidently do not have a real answer.
Because you don't have a real question.
She claims a Catholic Church baptized here. Was that Constantinople? Alexandria? Antioch? Jerusalem? Russia? Georgia? Serbia? Romania? Bulgaria? Cyprus? the Church of Greece? Albania? Poland? the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia? The Orthodox Church in America?  They are the only Catholic Churches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church within what I cage as EM's lifetime (I don't think she is older than 75, and probably much younger). Take your pick.
Oh, I see the problem. Your premise if faulty.
That I take EM's word for it that she was baptized by a Catholic Church. That's the premise that needs to be put on firmer ground, like a rock.

Or are you saying she is older?
No, I am saying that you misidentify the Catholic Church. Of course, identification has never been your strength, as you continually refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican". It's quite funny to watch.   Cheesy Though embarrassing for you.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:58:58 PM by Papist » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #372 on: March 01, 2011, 03:02:53 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
because you evidently do not have a real answer.
Because you don't have a real question.
She claims a Catholic Church baptized here. Was that Constantinople? Alexandria? Antioch? Jerusalem? Russia? Georgia? Serbia? Romania? Bulgaria? Cyprus? the Church of Greece? Albania? Poland? the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia? The Orthodox Church in America?  They are the only Catholic Churches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church within what I cage as EM's lifetime (I don't think she is older than 75, and probably much younger). Take your pick.
Oh, I see the problem. Your premise if faulty.
That I take EM's word for it that she was baptized by a Catholic Church. That's the premise that needs to be put on firmer ground, like a rock.

Or are you saying she is older?
No, I am saying that you misidentify the Catholic Church. Of course, identification has never been your strength, as you continually refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican". It's quite funny to watch.   Cheesy Though embarrassing for you.
http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
Do straighten out your "Sovereign of the State of Vatican City."

And I NEVER confuse the Catholic Church with the Vatican or its supreme pontiff.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 03:03:46 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #373 on: March 01, 2011, 03:24:41 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
because you evidently do not have a real answer.
Because you don't have a real question.
She claims a Catholic Church baptized here. Was that Constantinople? Alexandria? Antioch? Jerusalem? Russia? Georgia? Serbia? Romania? Bulgaria? Cyprus? the Church of Greece? Albania? Poland? the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia? The Orthodox Church in America?  They are the only Catholic Churches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church within what I cage as EM's lifetime (I don't think she is older than 75, and probably much younger). Take your pick.
Oh, I see the problem. Your premise if faulty.
That I take EM's word for it that she was baptized by a Catholic Church. That's the premise that needs to be put on firmer ground, like a rock.

Or are you saying she is older?
No, I am saying that you misidentify the Catholic Church. Of course, identification has never been your strength, as you continually refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican". It's quite funny to watch.   Cheesy Though embarrassing for you.
http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
Do straighten out your "Sovereign of the State of Vatican City."

And I NEVER confuse the Catholic Church with the Vatican or its supreme pontiff.
Then why do you always call the Catholic Church, "The Vatican"? LOL
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« Reply #374 on: March 01, 2011, 03:29:47 PM »

Speaking of hypnosis, Frank Santos Jr.'s late father couldn't hypnotize me when I attended a show at the dorm in the 1990's.

I also refer to the Roman Catholic Church as the Vatican; I use the terms interchangeably even as I make the distinction between the religion and sovereign nation as I make the distinction between my hip joint and my knee joint which are on my leg.
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« Reply #375 on: March 01, 2011, 03:38:57 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
because you evidently do not have a real answer.
Because you don't have a real question.
She claims a Catholic Church baptized here. Was that Constantinople? Alexandria? Antioch? Jerusalem? Russia? Georgia? Serbia? Romania? Bulgaria? Cyprus? the Church of Greece? Albania? Poland? the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia? The Orthodox Church in America?  They are the only Catholic Churches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church within what I cage as EM's lifetime (I don't think she is older than 75, and probably much younger). Take your pick.
Oh, I see the problem. Your premise if faulty.
That I take EM's word for it that she was baptized by a Catholic Church. That's the premise that needs to be put on firmer ground, like a rock.

Or are you saying she is older?
No, I am saying that you misidentify the Catholic Church. Of course, identification has never been your strength, as you continually refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican". It's quite funny to watch.   Cheesy Though embarrassing for you.
http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
Do straighten out your "Sovereign of the State of Vatican City."

And I NEVER confuse the Catholic Church with the Vatican or its supreme pontiff.
Then why do you always call the Catholic Church, "The Vatican"? LOL

synecdoche much?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #376 on: March 01, 2011, 03:39:25 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.
I don't know what Catholic Church baptized you, so I can't comment.

The one holy catholic and apostolic Church of my baptism.  But you are right.  You have no real comment.
because you evidently do not have a real answer.
Because you don't have a real question.
She claims a Catholic Church baptized here. Was that Constantinople? Alexandria? Antioch? Jerusalem? Russia? Georgia? Serbia? Romania? Bulgaria? Cyprus? the Church of Greece? Albania? Poland? the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia? The Orthodox Church in America?  They are the only Catholic Churches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church within what I cage as EM's lifetime (I don't think she is older than 75, and probably much younger). Take your pick.
Oh, I see the problem. Your premise if faulty.
That I take EM's word for it that she was baptized by a Catholic Church. That's the premise that needs to be put on firmer ground, like a rock.

Or are you saying she is older?
No, I am saying that you misidentify the Catholic Church. Of course, identification has never been your strength, as you continually refer to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican". It's quite funny to watch.   Cheesy Though embarrassing for you.
http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
Do straighten out your "Sovereign of the State of Vatican City."

And I NEVER confuse the Catholic Church with the Vatican or its supreme pontiff.
Then why do you always call the Catholic Church, "The Vatican"? LOL
LOL. Care to quote me doing so?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #377 on: March 01, 2011, 03:41:37 PM »

It would be a serious error to insist that the Catholic Church of my Baptism does not make pastoral provisions concerning birth control on a case by case basis.

Just cause I am in a lull at work, I was looking through this thread for lulz.

I've known many RCs and RC Priests, and what elijahmaria is saying is certainly the truth. In praxis, it would seem the pastoral nature of the RCC is pretty far outside the rightly or wrongly painted views of contraception or "family planning" by the VATICAN.
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« Reply #378 on: March 01, 2011, 03:44:04 PM »

you are aware that gnosticism and Manicheism are heresies, no?

That a number, even a large number (and we are not dealing here with a large number), of Fathers say silly things that resemble each other does not make Patristic consensus, especially when it contradicts the practice and worship of the Church.

So St. Jerome could claim that the blood of martyrdom does not remove the defilement of marriage, and others could wag their fingers in disapproval that the married should be ashamed of what they did, "acting like animals" (and refering only to just the fact of intercourse, not frequency or purpose)," and claim that the Patriarchs cease to have realtions after they had children (belied by Scripture: Genesis 26:8 ) etc., but no such views are sustained by the prayers the Church says in marrying a couple.

ialmisry,

Can we family plan for you to adopt me? Boldly and well said.
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« Reply #379 on: March 01, 2011, 05:07:38 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.
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« Reply #380 on: March 01, 2011, 05:11:12 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
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« Reply #381 on: March 01, 2011, 05:26:30 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.

I know many couples who do not artificially contracept, nor priests who recommend it unless for very harsh circumstances.  In fact as the world becomes more and more madly sexualized the back-lash among Catholics is to lean more toward a positive reading of the teaching of the Church against artificial contraception.  Even some of my non-Catholic friends who are mothers of teenage daughters are teaching and pressing abstinence rather than automatic contraception.

God bless them, I say.  God bless, and keep them.


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« Reply #382 on: March 01, 2011, 06:00:53 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.

I know many couples who do not artificially contracept, nor priests who recommend it unless for very harsh circumstances.  In fact as the world becomes more and more madly sexualized the back-lash among Catholics is to lean more toward a positive reading of the teaching of the Church against artificial contraception.  Even some of my non-Catholic friends who are mothers of teenage daughters are teaching and pressing abstinence rather than automatic contraception.

God bless them, I say.  God bless, and keep them.

Not that it is any of my business, nor of course do you have to answer, but what part of the world do you live in?
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« Reply #383 on: March 01, 2011, 06:36:43 PM »


Not that it is any of my business, nor of course do you have to answer, but what part of the world do you live in?

Dear Norm,

I don't mind talking about my perspective.  I am in central PA but my experience of people reaches out beyond where I live.  I've been active on-line since the very earliest years of the Internet in the early- mid to late 1980's, and active on some of the very first venues for religious discussion on the Internet.  My siblings and my children are far from me so I used to travel a good bit and their lives extend my own reach.

I also am something of a wounded healer with regard to recovery from sexual abuse and attendant neuroses.  I didn't aim at it, but my communications and contacts have developed over time and I have helped many people in this country and a few from outside the confines of the U.S.  Over time I have gained a few friends, who think of themselves of my spiritual children and some of them have children of their own to raise who are now in their teenage years.  I have worked with numerous people with marital problems attributable to addictions of all kinds including addictions to pornography, and other destructive sexual practices.  I have extended graduate education and some formal theological training but in no way do I "advertise" as any kind of professional...nor do I claim to do counseling for people.  Most of the time my interactions come from speaking frankly, and getting to know people, and living my own life in a way that I can be of service to others in need of spiritual help and healing.

However informal, I have managed over the years to become very close to many people who allow me into their lives in intimate ways and I have witnessed over the years a slow and imperceptible shift in the climate of middle-class Americans with respect to the sexual revolution of the middle of the last century. 

On the other hand my son lives a bohemian life in Philadelphia and he lives surrounded by folks who still think they are invincible and that sex and or condoms heal all of the ills that drugs and alcohol cannot heal...So there is another part of me that is still a bit of a cynic.  It keeps me from falling over my own feet to have the variety of experiences that lengthen the tunnel vision of own who lives very much alone.

The desire for a life of abstinence rather than a contraceptive life may be more hidden but that does not mean that it does not exist and that it is not expanding, and that it should not be nurtured and encouraged and fed spiritually.

That is my perspective on HV.

M.

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« Reply #384 on: March 01, 2011, 07:07:54 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
That's strange kiddo, because none of the priests that I know say that it's ok to use artificial birth control. Again, all of the priests I know are against artificial birth control.
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« Reply #385 on: March 01, 2011, 07:49:19 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.
It is interesting that it mentions Muslims, given the hightening respect for women in the Muslim world. Roll Eyes
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Let's begin by meditating upon what might be called the first of the secular ironies now evident: Humanae Vitae's specific predictions about what the world would look like if artificial contraception became widespread. The encyclical warned of four resulting trends: a general lowering of moral standards throughout society; a rise in infidelity; a lessening of respect for women by men; and the coercive use of reproductive technologies by governments.
For a document dating from the ending of the 60's, I'm not sure how prophetic this is.

Quote
Consider, as Wilcox does, the Nobel Prize-winning economist George Akerlof. In a well-known 1996 article in the Quarterly Journal of Economics, Akerlof explained in the language of modern economics why the sexual revolution—contrary to common prediction, especially prediction by those in and out of the Church who wanted the teaching on birth control changed—had led to an increase in both illegitimacy and abortion. In another work published in the Economic Journal ten years ago, he traced the empirical connections between the decrease in marriage and married fatherhood for men—both clear consequences of the contraceptive revolution—and the simultaneous increase in behaviors to which single men appear more prone: substance abuse, incarceration, and arrests, to name just three....And even in the occasional effort to draw a happy face on current trends, there is no glossing over what are still historically high rates of family breakup and unwed motherhood....
Does it have any data on unmarried fatherhood? It would seem the contraception mentality isn't working if it is ending up in unwed motherhood.

The "sexual revolution" didn't involve married couples using contraception.  It invovled removing marriage from any relevance.  Eisenstadt v. Baird, not Griswold v. Connecticut let it loose.  And you can have abortion and promiscuity on a grand scale without contraception playing a large role: Japan demonstrates that (though traditional Japanese mores leave much to be desired by the Church's criteria).

The US's looseness in divorce was the first and chief cause, embodied in Wallis Simpson.

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To these examples of secular social science confirming what Catholic thinkers had predicted, one might add many more demonstrating the negative effects on children and society. The groundbreaking work that Daniel Patrick Moynihan did in 1965, on the black family, is an example—along with the critical research of psychologist Judith Wallerstein over several decades on the impact of divorce on children; Barbara Dafoe Whitehead's well-known work on the outcomes of single parenthood for children; Sara McLanahan and Gary Sandefur's seminal book, Growing Up with a Single Parent; and David Blankenhorn's Fatherless America, another lengthy summarization of the bad empirical news about family breakup.
The problem is that in 1965 and before (and for that matter, after) the black family was not a hot bed of contraception.
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...Still other seminal works have observed that private actions, notably post-revolution sexual habits, were having massive public consequences; Charles Murray's Losing Ground and Francis Fukuyama's The Great Disruption come especially to mind.
LOL. Citing Fukuyama, not smart: he "predicted" that with the fall of Communism world peace would usher in and history would end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man

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In sum, although a few apologists such as Stephanie Coontz still insist otherwise, just about everyone else in possession of the evidence acknowledges that the sexual revolution has weakened family ties, and that family ties (the presence of a biologically related mother and father in the home) have turned out to be important indicators of child well-being—and more, that the broken home is not just a problem for individuals but also for society. Some scholars, moreover, further link these problems to the contraceptive revolution itself.
They link them, but are they linked?  As I think I pointed out here or another thread, the marriage failure rate is around 50%.  Just using the rhythm method of contraception is <5%, and those not using contraception at all must be less.  So that is >45%+ happy marriages unaccounted for (I say + as there are marriages with no contraception which end in divorce and worse, e.g. the marriage of Andrea Yates).

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Consider the work of maverick sociobiologist Lionel Tiger. Hardly a cat's-paw of the pope—he describes religion as “a toxic issue”—Tiger has repeatedly emphasized the centrality of the sexual revolution to today's unique problems. The Decline of Males, his 1999 book, was particularly controversial among feminists for its argument that female contraceptives had altered the balance between the sexes in disturbing new ways (especially by taking from men any say in whether they could have children).
What an odd argument.

Quote
Equally eyebrow-raising is his linking of contraception to the breakdown of families, female impoverishment, trouble in the relationship between the sexes, and single motherhood. Tiger has further argued—as Humanae Vitae did not explicitly, though other works of Catholic theology have—for a causal link between contraception and abortion, stating outright that “with effective contraception controlled by women, there are still more abortions than ever. . . . Contraception causes abortion.”
Post hoc ergo prompter hod is a fallacy, one that IIRC we dealt with here already.  It is often used by those who wish to coopt the pro-life movement to ban contraception as well, with the claim of "the contraceptive mentality & the undeniable link between contraceptives & abortion. Unless the pro-life movement ultimately addresses this, the pro-life movement isn't going to get very far."


”Given a reasonable availability of contraceptives, there is no evidence that induced abortion and contraceptive practice compete…Abortion and contraception are inextricably intertwined in their use. As the idea of family planning spreads through a community there appears to be a rise in the incidence of induced abortion at the point where the community begins to initiate the use of contraceptives...In developed countries, with the passage of time, the abortion rate has fallen in situations where contraceptive methods are known and available.”
http://books.google.com/books?id=T205AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA496&lpg=PA496&dq=Malcolm+potts+Abortion+and+contraception+are+inextricably+intertwined+in+their+use.+As+the+idea+of+family+planning+spreads+through+a+community+there+appears+to+be+a+rise+in+the+incidence+of+induced+abortion+at+the+point+where+the+community+begins+to+initiate+the+use+of+contraceptives&source=bl&ots=nQRFNyIL0y&sig=CTax5yWrz0HvxYlwUCN8_p84XOc&hl=en&ei=DHZcTebCOZPQgAeEypH_DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Many who use contraception never have an abortion, and many who have abortions don't use contraception: contraception plays no role, for instance, in the nefarious plans of those who use abortion for sex selection.

Quote
Who could deny that the predictions of Humanae Vitae and, by extension, of Catholic moral theology have been ratified with data and arguments that did not even exist in 1968?
For one, the Russian episcopate. And they are right in the differences between their Social Concept and HV.

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Just as empirical evidence has proved that the sexual revolution has had disastrous effects on children and families, so the past forty years have destroyed the mantle called “science” that Humanae Vitae's detractors once wrapped round themselves. In particular, the doomsday population science so popular and influential during the era in which Humanae Vitae appeared has been repeatedly demolished.
Here she is correct. Btw, that the world was already (over)populated was (is?) a traditional argument for celibacy and monasticism: the Protestant reformers criticized the Vatican using this argument repeatedly.

Quote
In fact, Humanae Vitae appeared two months before the most successful popularization of Malthusian thinking yet, Paul R. Ehrlich's The Population Bomb—which opened with the words: “The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s and 1980s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now.”
That detracts somewhat from HV's prophecy, as Ehrlich advocates a lot of what HV (rightly) preaches against.

Quote
The forty years since Humanae Vitae appeared have also vindicated the encyclical's fear that governments would use the new contraceptive technology coercively. The outstanding example, of course, is the Chinese government's long-running “one-child policy,” replete with forced abortions, public trackings of menstrual cycles, family flight, increased female infanticide, sterilization, and other assaults too numerous even to begin cataloguing here—in fact, so numerous that they are now widely, if often grudgingly, acknowledged as wrongs even by international human-rights bureaucracies. Lesser-known examples include the Indian government's foray into coercive use of contraception in the “emergency” of 1976 and 1977, and the Indonesian government's practice in the 1970s and 1980s of the bullying implantation of IUDs and Norplant.
There is also the converse: fertility can be coercive, the most blatant example being Romania, where women were inspected regularly at their place of employment to make sure nothing was being done to interfere with the state mandated goal of 5 children per Romanian woman (or womb, the law really didn't see them as women).

Quote
Should governments come to “regard this as necessary,” Humanae Vitae warned, “they may even impose their use on everyone.” As with the unintended affirmation by social science, will anyone within the ranks of the population revisionists now give credit where credit is due?
Ceaucescu?

Quote
Beneath all the pathos, the subtext remains the same: Woman's chief adversary is Unreliable Man, who does not understand her sexual and romantic needs and who walks off time and again at the first sashay of a younger thing. What are all these but the generic cries of a woman who thinks that men are “disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium” and “no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection”?
Most divorces are initiated by women, and they are the ones favored in the divorce courts (although divorce courts usually gravitate to the most unjust and repugnant settlement possible).

Quote
Perhaps the most compelling case made for traditional marriage lately was not on the cover of, say, Catholic World Report but in the devoutly secular Atlantic. The 2008 article “Marry Him!” by Lori Gottlieb—a single mother who conceived her only child with donor sperm rather than miss out on motherhood as she has on marriage—is a frank and excruciatingly personal look into some of the sexual revolution's lonelier venues, including the creation of children by anonymous or absent sperm donors, the utter corrosiveness of taking a consumerist approach to romance, and the miserable effects of advancing age on one's sexual marketability.
So she's not contracepting, but does hold marriage in disdain.  Not exactly what HV pictured. And HV did not say this
Quote
People are not closer because of porn but further apart; people are not more turned on in their daily lives but less so.” And perhaps most shocking of all, this—which with just a little tweaking could easily have appeared in Humanae Vitae itself: “The power and charge of sex are maintained when there is some sacredness to it, when it is not on tap all the time.”
contraception, much to the shock of those who worship HV, does not function as spicket for unlimited sex.

Quote
That there is no auxiliary literature of grievance for men—who, for the most part, just don't seem to feel they have as much to grieve about in this new world order
Never read the literature on men and divorce it seems.

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The adversaries of Humanae Vitae also could not have foreseen one important historical development that in retrospect would appear to undermine their demands that the Catholic Church change with the times: the widespread Protestant collapse, particularly the continuing implosion of the Episcopal Church and the other branches of Anglicanism. It is about as clear as any historical chain can get that this implosion is a direct consequence of the famous Lambeth Conference in 1930, at which the Anglicans abandoned the longstanding Christian position on contraception. If a church cannot tell its flock “what to do with my body,” as the saying goes, with regard to contraception, then other uses of that body will quickly prove to be similarly off-limits to ecclesiastical authority.
Anglicanism's problems were present at the first Lambeth conference over 60 years earlier, where Latitudinarianism ruled the day and ruled in favor of bishop Colenso, who tolerated polygamy (without contraception, I'm sure) and defended it in print, and found he could not be removed as a bishop no matter his views.

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If contraceptive intercourse is permissible, then what objection could there be after all to mutual masturbation, or copulation in vase indebito, sodomy, buggery (I should perhaps remark that I am using a legal term here—not indulging in bad language), when normal copulation is impossible or inadvisable (or in any case, according to taste)? It can't be the mere pattern of bodily behavior in which the stimulation is procured that makes all the difference! But if such things are all right, it becomes perfectly impossible to see anything wrong with homosexual intercourse, for example. I am not saying: if you think contraception all right you will do these other things; not at all. The habit of respectability persists and old prejudices die hard. But I am saying: you will have no solid reason against these things. You will have no answer to someone who proclaims as many do that they are good too. You cannot point to the known fact that Christianity drew people out of the pagan world, always saying no to these things. Because, if you are defending contraception, you will have rejected Christian tradition

The Russian Church's statement does exactly what is said cannot be done.

Btw, mutual masturbation does not depend on contraception to be permissible.

Quote
By giving benediction in 1930 to its married heterosexual members purposely seeking sterile sex, the Anglican Church lost, bit by bit, any authority to tell her other members—married or unmarried, homosexual or heterosexual—not to do the same. To put the point another way, once heterosexuals start claiming the right to act as homosexuals, it would not be long before homosexuals start claiming the rights of heterosexuals.
LOL. Hardly.  St. John Chrysostom explicitely defends sterile couples having sex, but never defended (or thought of) same sex marriage. The Roman penitentiary allowed a wife to have sex with her husband who was practising "onanism" in 1810.  Did that lead the Vatican to lead the way to same sex marriage?

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It is hard to believe that anyone seeking a similar change in Catholic teaching on the subject would want the Catholic Church to follow suit into the moral and theological confusion at the center of today's Anglican Church—yet such is the purposeful ignorance of so many who oppose Rome on birth control that they refuse to connect these cautionary historical dots
It seems you have erased the dots of the decisions of the Roman penitentiary during the course of the 19th century.

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Thus, for instance, Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, observed in First Things in 1998 that “in an ironic turn, American evangelicals are rethinking birth control even as a majority of the nation's Roman Catholics indicate a rejection of their Church's teaching.” Later, when interviewed in a 2006 article in the New York Times Sunday magazine about current religious thinking on artificial contraception, Mohler elaborated: “I cannot imagine any development in human history, after the Fall, that has had a greater impact on human beings than the Pill. . . . The entire horizon of the sexual act changes. I think there can be no question that the Pill gave incredible license to everything from adultery and affairs to premarital sex and within marriage to a separation of the sex act and procreation.”
...There are active debates going on. It's one of the things that may serve to divide evangelicalism.” Part of that division includes Quiverfull, the anti-contraception Protestant movement now thought to number in the tens of thousands that further prohibits (as the Catholic Church does not) natural family planning or any other conscious interference with conception. Such second thoughts among evangelicals are the premise of a 2002 book titled Open Embrace: A Protestant Couple Re-Thinks Contraception.
Looking to the Baptists for authority. That's desperate.

Mr. Yates was a member (for all I know, still is) of "Quiverfull." And at least Quiverfull is consistent: it bans the rhythm method a/k/a NFP too.


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In fact, the disgrace of contemporary American Catholicism—the many recent scandals involving priests and underage boys—is traceable to the collusion between a large Catholic laity that wanted a different birth-control doctrine, on the one hand, and a new generation of priests cutting themselves a different kind of slack, on the other. “I won't tattle on my gay priest if you'll give me absolution for contraception” seems to have been the unspoken deal in many parishes since Humanae Vitae.
Well, find out where it was spoken, because it is just conjecture in your mind otherwise.  I don't find anyone defending conception defending pedophilia, but I see many defending HV involved in the coverup and looking the other way.

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Of course, all that Paul VI did, as Anscombe among many other unapologetic Catholics then and since have pointed out, was reiterate what just about everyone in the history of Christendom had ever said on the subject. In asking Catholics to be more like contraceptive-accepting Protestants, critics have been forgetting what Christian theologians across centuries had to say about contraception until practically the day before yesterday.
You might be more convincing if you also reiterated the condemnation of the rhythm method by SS. Clement, Jerome, Augustine, Lactianus, etc.

Most Christians, the VAST majority, had the sense to leave it to pastoring rather than to pontificate. Especially by those who hadn't a clue of what they were talking about.

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Seen in the light of actual Christian tradition, the question is not after all why the Catholic Church refused to collapse on the point. It is rather why just about everyone else in the Judeo-Christian tradition did. Whatever the answer, the Catholic Church took, and continues to take, the public fall for causing a collapse—when actually it was the only one not collapsing.
We are still standing, and standing taller. In the meantime, dissent in the Vatican sees no end in sight.

Quote
Still others have floated the idea that John Paul II's theology of the body, an elaborate and highly positive explication of Christian moral teaching, might have taken some of the sting out of Humanae Vitae and better won the obedience of the flock.
There seems to be some truth to that: the late pope of Rome gives (or tries to) give theological position based on Scripture and Tradition, in a larger context.  HV speaks only by fiat.

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So why isn't everybody down here laughing?
LOL. That's at you, not with you.

All very strained, like the argument of how marriage is dangerous because of the rate of domestic violence with husbands, live in and causual boyfriends.  Except if, instead of lumping the three together, and instead compare the rate with husbands and the rate with "partners," you see that a woman is safest with her husband above all.

To prove your case here, you are going to have to explain those 45% of happy "contracepting" marriages.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 08:09:42 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #386 on: March 01, 2011, 07:50:30 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
That's strange kiddo, because none of the priests that I know say that it's ok to use artificial birth control. Again, all of the priests I know are against artificial birth control.

Please ask them then if they "forbid" their parishioners to do so, if they do not and the family still practices "artificial" (silly word) birth control, if they are denied Communion.
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« Reply #387 on: March 01, 2011, 07:52:22 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.

I know many couples who do not artificially contracept, nor priests who recommend it unless for very harsh circumstances.  In fact as the world becomes more and more madly sexualized the back-lash among Catholics is to lean more toward a positive reading of the teaching of the Church against artificial contraception.  Even some of my non-Catholic friends who are mothers of teenage daughters are teaching and pressing abstinence rather than automatic contraception.

God bless them, I say.  God bless, and keep them.
Amen, but that is not a distinction between contraception and non-contraception, but moral versus immoral behavior. Not the same thing, and the Vatican's confusion on that is part of its problem.
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« Reply #388 on: March 01, 2011, 07:56:25 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
That's strange kiddo, because none of the priests that I know say that it's ok to use artificial birth control. Again, all of the priests I know are against artificial birth control.

Please ask them then if they "forbid" their parishioners to do so, if they do not and the family still practices "artificial" (silly word) birth control, if they are denied Communion.
Absolutely. They teach that it is a mortal sin that must be repented of and confessed before approacing the Sacrament of the Altar.
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« Reply #389 on: March 01, 2011, 08:01:46 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
That's strange kiddo, because none of the priests that I know say that it's ok to use artificial birth control. Again, all of the priests I know are against artificial birth control.

Please ask them then if they "forbid" their parishioners to do so, if they do not and the family still practices "artificial" (silly word) birth control, if they are denied Communion.
Absolutely. They teach that it is a mortal sin that must be repented of and confessed before approacing the Sacrament of the Altar.

Wow. I must be missing out on the explosion of RCs then. Our city sells old churches to Urban Outfitters and the like. And RC schools are dying out.

Maybe with the large Latino community around you that will work, until they all start becoming good middle-class Americans.
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« Reply #390 on: March 01, 2011, 08:03:08 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
That's strange kiddo, because none of the priests that I know say that it's ok to use artificial birth control. Again, all of the priests I know are against artificial birth control.
I recall asking my friend, a teacher in the parochial school system, about what she had to teach (she was teaching a grade when sex ed was being taught), specifically on how they handled male masturbation (I notice that even the public school system, like much of the Vatican, evidently believe that female masturbation doesn't exist, so they don't address it), as the public school treatment I knew was diametrically opposed to what the Vatican taught.  As a result of her asking the priest, the whole school board/staff had a meeting.  The presentation of the views of HV and the magisterium was pretty mealy mouthed, and only one (including the priests) seems to take any of it serious: one teacher (a woman) of a Traditionalist bent.
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« Reply #391 on: March 01, 2011, 10:30:51 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
That's strange kiddo, because none of the priests that I know say that it's ok to use artificial birth control. Again, all of the priests I know are against artificial birth control.
I recall asking my friend, a teacher in the parochial school system, about what she had to teach (she was teaching a grade when sex ed was being taught), specifically on how they handled male masturbation (I notice that even the public school system, like much of the Vatican, evidently believe that female masturbation doesn't exist, so they don't address it), as the public school treatment I knew was diametrically opposed to what the Vatican taught.  As a result of her asking the priest, the whole school board/staff had a meeting.  The presentation of the views of HV and the magisterium was pretty mealy mouthed, and only one (including the priests) seems to take any of it serious: one teacher (a woman) of a Traditionalist bent.
Strange, because I experience the exact opposite where I live. BTW, I noticed you accidentally referred to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican" Again.
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« Reply #392 on: March 01, 2011, 10:31:48 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
That's strange kiddo, because none of the priests that I know say that it's ok to use artificial birth control. Again, all of the priests I know are against artificial birth control.

Please ask them then if they "forbid" their parishioners to do so, if they do not and the family still practices "artificial" (silly word) birth control, if they are denied Communion.
Absolutely. They teach that it is a mortal sin that must be repented of and confessed before approacing the Sacrament of the Altar.

Wow. I must be missing out on the explosion of RCs then. Our city sells old churches to Urban Outfitters and the like. And RC schools are dying out.

Maybe with the large Latino community around you that will work, until they all start becoming good middle-class Americans.
What on earth are you blabbering about? This has nothing to do with what I said.
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« Reply #393 on: March 01, 2011, 10:42:23 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
That's strange kiddo, because none of the priests that I know say that it's ok to use artificial birth control. Again, all of the priests I know are against artificial birth control.

Please ask them then if they "forbid" their parishioners to do so, if they do not and the family still practices "artificial" (silly word) birth control, if they are denied Communion.
Absolutely. They teach that it is a mortal sin that must be repented of and confessed before approacing the Sacrament of the Altar.

Wow. I must be missing out on the explosion of RCs then. Our city sells old churches to Urban Outfitters and the like. And RC schools are dying out.

Maybe with the large Latino community around you that will work, until they all start becoming good middle-class Americans.
What on earth are you blabbering about? This has nothing to do with what I said.

I'll set your rudeness aside.

If widespread RCs are not practicing contraception and having sex, then you would think their numbers would be growing. There is not a RC family I know of anymore that has more than two children. Usually quite intentionally and planned.

I guess the rest of their marital life, the rhythm method is working like a charm. Strange thing, none of them use that method.

Sterilization, IUDs, condoms, the pill are the orders of the day.

Of course this doesn't exist in your world.
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« Reply #394 on: March 01, 2011, 11:20:13 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
That's strange kiddo, because none of the priests that I know say that it's ok to use artificial birth control. Again, all of the priests I know are against artificial birth control.
I recall asking my friend, a teacher in the parochial school system, about what she had to teach (she was teaching a grade when sex ed was being taught), specifically on how they handled male masturbation (I notice that even the public school system, like much of the Vatican, evidently believe that female masturbation doesn't exist, so they don't address it), as the public school treatment I knew was diametrically opposed to what the Vatican taught.  As a result of her asking the priest, the whole school board/staff had a meeting.  The presentation of the views of HV and the magisterium was pretty mealy mouthed, and only one (including the priests) seems to take any of it serious: one teacher (a woman) of a Traditionalist bent.
Strange, because I experience the exact opposite where I live. BTW, I noticed you accidentally referred to the Catholic Church as "The Vatican" Again.
You're confused. Again. But evidently in luck, that the 2% of couples who follow the Vatican's teaching are congregated evidently in your diocese.

This may be of use to your argument:
Quote
Birth Control Pills Affect Women's Taste in Men
How synthetic hormones change desire in women--and their choice in a mate

This year 2.25 million Americans will get married—and a million will get divorced. Could birth control be to blame for some of these breakups? Recent research suggests that the contraceptive pill—which prevents women from ovulating by fooling their body into believing it is pregnant—could affect which types of men women desire. Going on or off the pill during a relationship, therefore, may tempt a woman away from her man.

It’s all about scent. Hidden in a man’s smell are clues about his major histocompatibility complex (MHC) genes, which play an important role in immune system surveillance. Studies suggest that females prefer the scent of males whose MHC genes differ from their own, a preference that has probably evolved because it helps offspring survive: couples with different MHC genes are less likely to be related to each other than couples with similar genes are, and their children are born with more varied MHC profiles and thus more robust immune systems.

A study published in August in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B, however, suggests that women on the pill undergo a shift in preference toward men who share similar MHC genes. The female subjects were more likely to rate these genetically similar men’s scents (via a T-shirt the men had worn for two nights) as pleasant and desirable after they went on the pill as compared with before. Although no one knows why the pill affects attraction, some scientists believe that pregnancy—or in this case, the hormonal changes that mimic pregnancy—draws women toward nurturing relatives.

Women who start or stop taking the pill, then, may be in for some relationship problems. A study published last year in Psychological Science found that women paired with MHC-similar men are less sexually satisfied and more likely to cheat on their partners than women paired with MHC-dissimilar men. So a woman on the pill, for example, might be more likely to start dating a MHC-similar man, but he could ultimately leave her less sexually satisfied. Then if she goes off the pill during the relationship, the accompanying hormonal changes will draw her even more strongly toward more MHC-dissimilar men. These immune genes may have a “powerful effect in terms of how well relationships are cemented,” says University of Liverpool psychologist Craig Roberts, co-author of the August paper.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=birth-control-pills-affect-womens-taste
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« Reply #395 on: March 01, 2011, 11:24:01 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Mary Eberstadt
Aug/Sept 2008

That Humanae Vitae and related Catholic teachings about sexual morality are laughingstocks in all the best places is not exactly news. Even in the benighted precincts of believers, where information from the outside world is known to travel exceedingly slowly, everybody grasps that this is one doctrine the world loves to hate. During Benedict XVI's April visit to the United States, hardly a story in the secular press failed to mention the teachings of Humanae Vitae, usually alongside adjectives like “divisive” and “controversial” and “outdated.” In fact, if there's anything on earth that unites the Church's adversaries—all of them except for the Muslims, anyway—the teaching against contraception is probably it.


And I have yet to meet a single RC family or Priest who does not practice / counsel it, outside the St. Pius X folks.
That's strange kiddo, because none of the priests that I know say that it's ok to use artificial birth control. Again, all of the priests I know are against artificial birth control.

Please ask them then if they "forbid" their parishioners to do so, if they do not and the family still practices "artificial" (silly word) birth control, if they are denied Communion.
Absolutely. They teach that it is a mortal sin that must be repented of and confessed before approacing the Sacrament of the Altar.

Wow. I must be missing out on the explosion of RCs then. Our city sells old churches to Urban Outfitters and the like. And RC schools are dying out.

Maybe with the large Latino community around you that will work, until they all start becoming good middle-class Americans.
What on earth are you blabbering about? This has nothing to do with what I said.

I'll set your rudeness aside.

If widespread RCs are not practicing contraception and having sex, then you would think their numbers would be growing. There is not a RC family I know of anymore that has more than two children. Usually quite intentionally and planned.

I guess the rest of their marital life, the rhythm method is working like a charm. Strange thing, none of them use that method.

Sterilization, IUDs, condoms, the pill are the orders of the day.

Of course this doesn't exist in your world.
Somewhere here I put the link to a study that found out that the majority method was sterilization (which world wide is the most popular method Sad)
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #396 on: March 02, 2011, 04:21:14 PM »

you are aware that gnosticism and Manicheism are heresies, no?
Yeah. What's your point?

That a number, even a large number (and we are not dealing here with a large number), of Fathers say silly things that resemble each other does not make Patristic consensus, especially when it contradicts the practice and worship of the Church.
How does your Church determine what does and does not conform to the "practice and worship of the Church"? You could have Patriarch A who says only X is acceptable whereas Patriarch B teaches only Y is acceptable. Then, Patriarch C could come along and disagree and say that only Z is acceptable. Finally, Patriarch D could disagree with the whole lot and say X, Y, and Z are all acceptable and not incompatible with the worship of the Church. How does your Church determine when the Fathers are worth listening to and when they are not?

So St. Jerome could claim that the blood of martyrdom does not remove the defilement of marriage, and others could wag their fingers in disapproval that the married should be ashamed of what they did, "acting like animals" (and refering only to just the fact of intercourse, not frequency or purpose)," and claim that the Patriarchs cease to have realtions after they had children (belied by Scripture: Genesis 26:8 ) etc., but no such views are sustained by the prayers the Church says in marrying a couple.
St. Jerome is just one Father. Who else teaches this?
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« Reply #397 on: March 02, 2011, 05:18:07 PM »

The ones who left it as a pastoral issue.

The ones who condemned the drugs of sterility like the low dose birth control pill, the pull out method, or other barrier methods (btw, neither the pill nor the withdrawal method are barrier methods) also condemned the spacing of children.

Name for me one early church father who condoned the use of artificial birth control.

You didn't. And you can't. Because there aren't any.

If there are any, I am happy to concede. But for you to assert that the consensus of the Fathers was that contraception is ever okay is absurd.

But you haven't asserted it, for good reason - because the Fathers universally condemned contraception.

We can ask:  name one Father who approved the use of NFP?  The answer is simple: NOT one!

The Fathers condemned all marital sex which

1. Was not intended to create a child

2.  Was not able to create a child.

They saw much of the sexual relationships which we accept today as an abomination before the Lord, such as sex when a woman is past the age of child bearing or when a couple is infertile.  The Church no longer accepts these teachings of the Church Fathers.

Father, please do explain your words that "The Church no longer accepts these teachings of the Church Fathers."  I do know that many monastic spiritual father on Mt. Athos and in this country do follow the teachings of the Church Fathers on this subject, and they are often sharply criticized for doing so, but what is your basis for this assertion that the Church has regected the Fathers on this point?
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« Reply #398 on: March 02, 2011, 05:42:19 PM »

you are aware that gnosticism and Manicheism are heresies, no?
Yeah. What's your point?
semi-gnostic, crypto-gnostic and just plain gnostic views cannot form Patristic consensus.

That a number, even a large number (and we are not dealing here with a large number), of Fathers say silly things that resemble each other does not make Patristic consensus, especially when it contradicts the practice and worship of the Church.
How does your Church determine what does and does not conform to the "practice and worship of the Church"?  You could have Patriarch A who says only X is acceptable whereas Patriarch B teaches only Y is acceptable. Then, Patriarch C could come along and disagree and say that only Z is acceptable. Finally, Patriarch D could disagree with the whole lot and say X, Y, and Z are all acceptable and not incompatible with the worship of the Church. How does your Church determine when the Fathers are worth listening to and when they are not?
As shocking as it is to you, we don't fall down and get bogged down in such a problem.  Almost 2,000 years, and the Church's self correction has never failed her. Amazing, I know.

As much as you do not want to admit it, you have no determination on this issue, because your supreme pontiff is keeping it a deep, dark secret whether Humanae Vitae is "infallible" or not.  Hence it is subject to any ex cathedra statement any future successor of Pope Paul of Rome might make.  So You could have Pope Pius who says only complete abstinence is acceptable whereas Pope Paul teaches the rhythm method is acceptable. Then, Pope Benedict  could come along and disagree and say that condoms are acceptable (didn't we have a thread on that). Finally, Pope Z could disagree with the whole lot and say pills, condoms and withdrawal are all acceptable and not incompatible with the worship of the Church. How does your Church determine when the Fathers are worth listening to and when they are not, when the first Pope to speak "ex cathedra" gets the last word that trumps all?

So St. Jerome could claim that the blood of martyrdom does not remove the defilement of marriage, and others could wag their fingers in disapproval that the married should be ashamed of what they did, "acting like animals" (and refering only to just the fact of intercourse, not frequency or purpose)," and claim that the Patriarchs cease to have realtions after they had children (belied by Scripture: Genesis 26:8 ) etc., but no such views are sustained by the prayers the Church says in marrying a couple.
St. Jerome is just one Father. Who else teaches this?
SS. Clement, Agustine, Lactatinus....I've mentioned and quoted them.  I'll add Pope St. Gregory, who imposed clerical cleibacy as he held intercourse as intrinsically sinful.
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« Reply #399 on: March 02, 2011, 05:46:03 PM »

The ones who left it as a pastoral issue.

The ones who condemned the drugs of sterility like the low dose birth control pill, the pull out method, or other barrier methods (btw, neither the pill nor the withdrawal method are barrier methods) also condemned the spacing of children.

Name for me one early church father who condoned the use of artificial birth control.

You didn't. And you can't. Because there aren't any.

If there are any, I am happy to concede. But for you to assert that the consensus of the Fathers was that contraception is ever okay is absurd.

But you haven't asserted it, for good reason - because the Fathers universally condemned contraception.

We can ask:  name one Father who approved the use of NFP?  The answer is simple: NOT one!

The Fathers condemned all marital sex which

1. Was not intended to create a child

2.  Was not able to create a child.

They saw much of the sexual relationships which we accept today as an abomination before the Lord, such as sex when a woman is past the age of child bearing or when a couple is infertile.  The Church no longer accepts these teachings of the Church Fathers.

Father, please do explain your words that "The Church no longer accepts these teachings of the Church Fathers."  I do know that many monastic spiritual father on Mt. Athos and in this country do follow the teachings of the Church Fathers on this subject,
How many monastic spiritual fathers on Mt. Athos and in this country have any knowledge on this subject?

and they are often sharply criticized for doing so, but what is your basis for this assertion that the Church has regected the Fathers on this point?
which Fathers are you talking about? St Jerome or St. Chrysostom? Because they have diametrically opposed ideas on marriage and pastoring the married.
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« Reply #400 on: March 02, 2011, 07:32:29 PM »

semi-gnostic, crypto-gnostic and just plain gnostic views cannot form Patristic consensus.
Again...what's your point? What do these heresies have to do with the topic of this thread?


As much as you do not want to admit it, you have no determination on this issue, because your supreme pontiff is keeping it a deep, dark secret whether Humanae Vitae is "infallible" or not.  Hence it is subject to any ex cathedra statement any future successor of Pope Paul of Rome might make.  So You could have Pope Pius who says only complete abstinence is acceptable whereas Pope Paul teaches the rhythm method is acceptable. Then, Pope Benedict  could come along and disagree and say that condoms are acceptable (didn't we have a thread on that). Finally, Pope Z could disagree with the whole lot and say pills, condoms and withdrawal are all acceptable and not incompatible with the worship of the Church. How does your Church determine when the Fathers are worth listening to and when they are not, when the first Pope to speak "ex cathedra" gets the last word that trumps all?
First off it is ignorant to refer to natural family planning as solely the "rhythm method." That was an early form of NFP and certainly not a very effective one. What makes you so sure that my Church is going to change its stance on contraception? My Church is the only one who has stood firm against contraception when all other Churches (including yours) flip flopped.

SS. Clement, Agustine, Lactatinus....I've mentioned and quoted them.  I'll add Pope St. Gregory, who imposed clerical cleibacy as he held intercourse as intrinsically sinful.
Your bishops and patriarchs are celibate. Why is that?
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« Reply #401 on: March 02, 2011, 08:33:34 PM »

semi-gnostic, crypto-gnostic and just plain gnostic views cannot form Patristic consensus.
Again...what's your point? What do these heresies have to do with the topic of this thread?
Well you may view marriage as defilement, as St. Jerome taught your magisterium its views on marriage and sex, but the One, Holy, Catoolic and Apostlic Church sees this as gnostic, and follows the Apostles' teachings holding marriage in honor and the marriage bed undefiled.

As much as you do not want to admit it, you have no determination on this issue, because your supreme pontiff is keeping it a deep, dark secret whether Humanae Vitae is "infallible" or not.  Hence it is subject to any ex cathedra statement any future successor of Pope Paul of Rome might make.  So You could have Pope Pius who says only complete abstinence is acceptable whereas Pope Paul teaches the rhythm method is acceptable. Then, Pope Benedict  could come along and disagree and say that condoms are acceptable (didn't we have a thread on that). Finally, Pope Z could disagree with the whole lot and say pills, condoms and withdrawal are all acceptable and not incompatible with the worship of the Church. How does your Church determine when the Fathers are worth listening to and when they are not, when the first Pope to speak "ex cathedra" gets the last word that trumps all?
First off it is ignorant to refer to natural family planning as solely the "rhythm method." That was an early form of NFP and certainly not a very effective one.
As far as intent, and according to the thoughts of those Fathers you are depending on, that doesn't make a lick of diffrence.

What makes you so sure that my Church is going to change its stance on contraception?
I didn't say it was going to. More or less, I couldn't care less if it does or not, as it doesn't affect me.  All this "perhaps" "maybe" "could" was your idea. After all, bishops, archbishops, popes and supreme pontiffs of Rome and the Vatican have contradicted each other before. Hence why there is no official list of either supreme pontiffs nor their "ex cathedra" statements in the Vatican.  That does demonstrate, however, that this "changeless" teaching of yours, a change from the Apostles', can change yet again (hopefully for the better, but I won't hold my breath).

My Church is the only one who has stood firm against contraception
Too bad it hasn't stood as firm against certain vices of its "celibate" clergy. It would not have dragged the priesthood and Church (even the Orthodox one-many on the outside do not obserb the distinction) down into such disrepute.

when all other Churches (including yours) flip flopped.

Marriage honourable in all, and the bed undefiled.-God, through the mouth of His Apostle.

The truth is that, in view of the purity of the body of Christ, all sexual intercourse is unclean...even the blood of martyrdom does not wash away the defilement of marriage-St. Jerome

Yeah, that's real consistent.

Btw, some other gems can be found:
Sex and salvation: virginity as a soteriological paradigm in ancient Christianity By Roger Steven Evans
http://books.google.com/books?id=kwtN8HHAiJgC&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=Jerome+martyrdom+defilement+marriage&source=bl&ots=UfcFoaN3Cd&sig=2AKNJ1fRh4OpCiocwZylI3kFjVY&hl=en&ei=HdxuTcH5KoPDgQfc8-1P&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Jerome%20martyrdom%20defilement%20marriage&f=false

And someone on your side appealed to the Muslims, here are the Judaizers:DECEPTION EXPOSED - THE CHURCH FATHERS JEROME ON MARRIAGE AND SEX
http://www.patriarchywebsite.com/bib-patriarchy/deception-jerome-marriage-sex.htm

SS. Clement, Agustine, Lactatinus....I've mentioned and quoted them.  I'll add Pope St. Gregory, who imposed clerical cleibacy as he held intercourse as intrinsically sinful.
Your bishops and patriarchs are celibate,
Not all, many are widowers.  One of the lovliest vignettes of the continuity of the Church in America is St. Tikhon coming to Alaska when he first arrived in America, told as he was by the Russians in New York about the suffering of the Native Alaskans.  When he came an old lady placed the episcopal rug down for him to stand on during the service in the Mother Church of America in Sitka: the lady was the granddaughter of St. Innocent of Moscow the Enlightener of Alaska, the rug had been woven by her mother when her father,St. Innocent , had returned, consecrated a bishop on the news of his wife's death, to take his place as the first bishop of North America.

Why is that?

As for the reasons why men with wives are not consecrated as bishops now, we have a thread on that here.  It's not because "all intercourse is unclean,"  nor because "even the blood of martydom does not wash away the defilement of marriage."
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 08:34:39 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #402 on: March 02, 2011, 08:39:27 PM »

We can ask:  name one Father who approved the use of NFP?  The answer is simple: NOT one!

The Fathers condemned all marital sex which

1. Was not intended to create a child

2.  Was not able to create a child.

They saw much of the sexual relationships which we accept today as an abomination before the Lord, such as sex when a woman is past the age of child bearing or when a couple is infertile.  The Church no longer accepts these teachings of the Church Fathers.

It is because the teaching of Pope Paul VI in "Humanae Vitae" is contrary to the teaching of the Fathers that we do not find even one quote from them in the Pope's statement.
Interesting. So the Eastern Orthodox Church can just throw out Patristic consensus when their teachings are inconvenient? Nice. And you say we are the heretics......

Father said nothing about inconvenience, except that the Vatican finds it convenient to ignore the condemnation of what it calls NFP by those Fathers it depends on to make the claim that HV is part of Tradition.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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« Reply #403 on: March 03, 2011, 10:14:29 AM »

I've been wondering about those who admit that the rhythm method, which they call "Natural Family Planning," can be sinful when done for selfish reasons, or to avoid having children at all.  When does it become a sin?  Newlyweds use it to get some time "to know each other" (as our priest says, you will learn nothing useful in the first years). Time goes on, they are trying to save for a house, advance their careers to be established enough for a child (if you wait until you can afford kids, you will never have them), etc. and before you know it, the wife has passed her peak fertility and they have trouble, or can't, conceive (happens all the time).  Have they sinned? is it mortal or venial?  What if they just put it off and never get around to it-is it venial or mortal?
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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« Reply #404 on: March 03, 2011, 12:07:44 PM »

The ones who left it as a pastoral issue.

The ones who condemned the drugs of sterility like the low dose birth control pill, the pull out method, or other barrier methods (btw, neither the pill nor the withdrawal method are barrier methods) also condemned the spacing of children.

Name for me one early church father who condoned the use of artificial birth control.

You didn't. And you can't. Because there aren't any.

If there are any, I am happy to concede. But for you to assert that the consensus of the Fathers was that contraception is ever okay is absurd.

But you haven't asserted it, for good reason - because the Fathers universally condemned contraception.

We can ask:  name one Father who approved the use of NFP?  The answer is simple: NOT one!

The Fathers condemned all marital sex which

1. Was not intended to create a child

2.  Was not able to create a child.

They saw much of the sexual relationships which we accept today as an abomination before the Lord, such as sex when a woman is past the age of child bearing or when a couple is infertile.  The Church no longer accepts these teachings of the Church Fathers.

Father, please do explain your words that "The Church no longer accepts these teachings of the Church Fathers."  I do know that many monastic spiritual father on Mt. Athos and in this country do follow the teachings of the Church Fathers on this subject, and they are often sharply criticized for doing so, but what is your basis for this assertion that the Church has regected the Fathers on this point?

I do not know bishops or priests who forbid the faithful to enjoy the marital bed if they cannot conceive (infertile, too old, etc.) or do not intend to conceive.   This is contrary to the teachings of the Fathers who taught that sex is permissible when

1.  there is the intention to conceive
2.  there is the possibility to conceive.

I see that the OCA website speaks of the change in laying aside patristic teaching on two points: conception and usury.
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