Author Topic: Being part of catholic community as orthodox  (Read 1313 times)

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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2017, 10:57:41 AM »
@Alpha: Ok, I see, thanks for clarifying. Also, I must admit that your observed general lack of reverence is certainly a problem.
I have been to many NO masses without taking communion, however, I never felt a peer pressure as you described.
In my opinion, your personal imagination may go a long way, odd looks and the like.
Your theory about true and false bishops is strange, I do not think that many Orthodox share it.
After all, should not even a "true" bishop as Cardinal Burke be considered a heretic due to his acceptance of papal infallibility and the filioque?
He is certainly a more conservative bishop from a Catholic perspective, but that is not the point at all.

When I visited Divine Liturgy, I did also not feel as part of the Orthodox community, but rather as an observer, a guest.
I think I dressed appropriately and behaved and so on, but did not really participate, though I said the creed and our father along with them.
Also, I did not line up for Antidoron or kissing the cross, though I think this would be fine for non-Orthodox within at least some parishes.
I think this is the most reasonable approach, being polite, but not pretending some kind of unity which is just not there.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 11:03:53 AM by Lepanto »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2017, 11:04:42 AM »
@Alpha: Ok, I see, thanks for clarifying. Also, I must admit that your observed general lack of reverence is certainly a problem.
I have been to many NO masses without taking communion, however, I never felt a peer pressure as you described.
In my opinion, your personal imagination may go a long way, odd looks and the like.
Your theory about true and false bishops is strange, I do not think that many Orthodox share it.
After all, should not even a "true" bishop as Cardinal Burke be considered a heretic due to his acceptance of papal infallibility and the filioque?
He is certainly a more conservative bishop from a Roman perspective, but that is not the point at all.

I believe the filioque can be read in a non-heretical manner, and the position of the Roman church that it would be heretical in Greek, which is why the Greek Catholics do not say it, satisfies my concerns; I think we can interpret the filioque to refer to Christ sending the Spirit on His current temporal mission, whereas the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father.

The challenge mounted to Pope Francis by Cardinal Burke suggests a willingness to take on, even at the expense of his ecclesiastical career, the Pope, and thus reflects the spirit of a bishop thinking for himself instead of blindly following the dictates of the Roman archbishop.

I admit my position on Catholicism is strange; it is rooted in personal experience and a desire for ecumenical reunion.

However, in the case of mikeforjesus, I think it is extremely important that he avoid the Catholic Church and limit himself to the Coptic or other Orthodox jurisdictions.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2017, 10:41:58 PM »
At every Novus Ordo mass I have had the misfortune of attending.
I agree that it may be a subtle, yet real peer pressure, along the lines of "everyone is doing it", or not so subtle, as when others stare at you as they stand up to receive.

In my experience, it's less so in Hispanic liturgies, where the people still have a modicum of conscience about the state of their soul and a significant number of attendants remain in the pews during Holy Communion.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2017, 11:44:04 PM »
My own private view on the Roman Catholic Church is that some of your bishops are true bishops, a few of your recent Popes such as St. Pius X were worthy of the dignity of the Patriarchate of Rome, and that your sacraments are potentially efficacious in dioceses where the bishop is a true, Orthodox bishop, where the priest is a true priest, and where the liturgy is a true liturgy, and this would include some Novus Ordo celebrations which are conducted with great reverence.

Almost true except the validity of holy orders doesn't depend on the worthiness of the man being ordained, so all Catholic bishops are real bishops.

But then you see liturgical abuses on YouTube, such as at the World Youth Conference, that are a ridiculous, pathetic sight to behold, with no reverence, and no hieratic dignity. 

Base your view on our teachings; the abuses you describe might not follow those teachings, or some of it may just be cultural differences. You don't have to be high-church like me to be Catholic; just don't tell me I can't be high-church.

Is Raymond Leo Cardiinal Burke a true bishop?  I think so.  Is the bishop of Madison, the bishop of Marquette, the Archbishop of San Francisco?  I think so.  Are most of the Eastern Catholic bishops true bishops?  Yes...

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« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 11:45:23 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2017, 01:08:58 AM »
My own private view on the Roman Catholic Church is that some of your bishops are true bishops, a few of your recent Popes such as St. Pius X were worthy of the dignity of the Patriarchate of Rome, and that your sacraments are potentially efficacious in dioceses where the bishop is a true, Orthodox bishop, where the priest is a true priest, and where the liturgy is a true liturgy, and this would include some Novus Ordo celebrations which are conducted with great reverence.

Almost true except the validity of holy orders doesn't depend on the worthiness of the man being ordained, so all Catholic bishops are real bishops.


Ex opere operanto does not apply to the ordination of bishops - see St. Cyprian of Carthage.   

I am adopting an intermediate position between the traditional Orthodox hardline view that you have no bishops, and your church's own erroneous misapplication of St. Augustine which turns ordination into a magic ritual and allows for validly ordained bishops to exist outside the Church Catholic, which is a ludicrous proposition.

In saying the sacraments were efficacious ex opere operanto, St. Augustine was responding to Donatist claims that baptisms and other sacraments performed by people of moral laxity, and also the related Novatian rigorism related to the readmission of persons to Holy Orders who had capitulated when threatened with martyrdom during the Great Persecution of Diocletian.

His words cannot be read in contradiction to those of St. Cyprian.

However, I am willing to read St. Cyprian's idea of apostolic succession as moving outside of linear time; as I see it, this is the only way to reconcile resolved schisms within the Orthodox Church, where for example the Armenians and Syriacs were for a few centuries out of communion, and ROCOR and the canonical Orthodox Church were out of communion for 90 years.  It is also the only way I can see to theologically reconcile the episcopates of the EO and OO churches when we reunite, and to reconcile the Orthodox and Catholic bishops, if, please God, the schism ends before 2054 with a repentant Roman Church rejoining the true Catholic Church, the Orthodox.

Thus, I regard as true bishops any bishops who teach the Orthodox faith, and who exercise the hieratic dignity of their office; these bishops can consecrate the Eucharist, and because of them, their priests can also consecrate.  In contrast, I believe a wicked bishop who also embraces heresy loses the charisma of the high priesthood, and even pious priests serving under him will be unable to consecrate.

I do not regard the Roman Catholic Church as heretical, but merely schismatic; Papal infallibility is an error, but Cardinal Burke, in writing the Dubia, demonstrates that Papal infallibility is not all that infallible.  Also, we have seen statements from some Greek Catholic bishops and priests that appear to contradict Vatican I and Pius XII on the Immaculate Conception and Assumption; the Greek Catholics since Vatican II have increasingly returned to and taught an Orthodox soteriology, which renders the ex cathedra pronunciation of the Immaculate Conception meaningless, because in Orthodox Chriatianity, original sin is not transmitted by sexual intercourse leading to conception but is rather inherited as part of the human condition, and the ex cathedra pronunciation on the Assumption, to the extent that it could and routinely is misinterpreted to say that the blessed Virgin was assumed bodily while still alive or at the point of death, is directly comtradicted by the Byzantine Catholic liturgy of the Dormition, which makes it clear she did die, and was then assumed into Heaven.

In contrast, when I was an Episcopalian, the Eucharist made me ill because my priest, although he was Orthodox and righteous, could not perform the sacrament because his bishop was both wicked and a heretic, and in irreconciable schism with the Orthodox Church.

I believe a sacrament can be performed ex opere operanto only within the Church Catholic, the Orthodox Church, or within schismatic churches destined to be reunited with it.  If a bishop has embraced heresy and wickedness and has made himself utterly irreconciable to Orthodoxy, which certainly applies in the case of the corrupt, heretical Episcopal Bishop of Los Angeles, to the point where even if we reunited with the ECUSA we would have to depose him and reordain anyone ordained by him, he was firmly outside of the bounds of the Catholic Church (the Orthodox Church) and thus attempts by his priests to perform any sacraments other than baptism (which the Church seems to be close to regarding as "correctible" through Chrismation, although we have not formally dogmatized this but instead explain it as oikonomia), are inefficacious.  They cannot consecrate the Eucharist, no matter how hard they try, because the high priest who they represent vicariously is cut off from our Lord and himself unable to confect the Eucharist or perform other sacraments, because ex opere operanto applies only within the Church, or, where a schism exists, within those bishops destined to be reunited or to be glorified when the church reunites.

In Cardinal Burke, I see a bishop who, if the Orthodox and Catholics reunite, will be accepted in his episcopacy as a contender for doctrinal truth, and indeed as someone who tried to prevent the Eastern Orthodox concept of a canonical divorce from being exploited by Pope Francis to justify the catch-all communion of all divorced and remarried persons, even those who have been married five, six or seven times.

Likewise, I see the current bishop of the Diocese of Mostar, and his predeccessor, as wrongly persecuted even in major, well financed Hollywood films, for courageously standing firm against the heresies of the Medjugorje cult.

I regard Cardinal Schonburn as a false bishop because he has embraced heresy via Medjugorje, and has also somehow managed to intrude in the diocese of Mostar in violation of the ancient canons, which the Roman church is still bound by but no longer bothers to enforce. 

When the Roman Catholic Church reunites with the Orthodox, and I do believe it will happen, one thing that will occur is the ancient canon law will be restored, so if someone like Cardinal Schonburn or even the Pope dared to intrude in the diocese of another bishop, that bishop could lawfully trample on his mitre.  This actually happened centuries ago in the holy Coptic Orthodox Church; the Pope of Alexandria was scheduled to concelebrate a liturgy in a diocese with the bishop of that diocese, who was unavoidably detained en route to church.  In consequence, the Pope dared to intrude upon the diocese of the local bishop by starting the liturgy without him.  When the local bishop did arrive, he correctly and properly smashed the mitre of the Pope under his foot (I assume the Pope's mitre back then was of the kind most Coptic bishops wear, called an emma, rather than the Byzantine style tiara now worn by the Coptic Pope), and is celebrated for doing this.

Unfortunately, due to errors within the RCC, the bishop of Mostar cannot dare to trample the mitre of Cardinal Schonburn, but I consider that he should have been able to, and that Schonburn actually is outside of the Orthodox-Catholic church at present, and without repentance on his part, when a reunion occurs, the combined Roman-Orthodox church would have to disavow him as a true bishop and redo any confirmations or ordinations performed solely by him.   I would worry about the efficacy of sacraments in his diocese.

However, the presence of religious orders in the Roman Church and overlapping tiers of jurisdiction creates an ambiguity, so its quite possible that in Vienna, some of the religious orders like the Capuchins or the members of FSSP or the Dominicans, or any group, might have a valid Eucharist, because it can be argued their priests do not vicariously represent the diocesan ordinary, but rather, the superior of their order.  There is enough ambiguity to permit that.

Furthermore, it is possible all sacraments in the Roman Church could be valid if the Roman Church is headed, as I believe it is, for reunion with the Orthodox, because at present, the doctrine of Papal Supremacy one could argue makes all Roman bishops other than the Pope mere chorepiscopi, no matter how glorious their title; even the Patriarchs of the sui juris churches (although it appears they might be the exception to this rule) could potentially be argued to be choir bishops.  In that case, all Roman priests actually represent the Pope in the Eucharist, and not their diocesan ordinary, and even if an individual pope is a heretic or wicked, because the RCC as a whole would reunite with the holy Orthodox Catholic Church, their sacraments are valid on account of this future reunion.

This is I admit an extremely unconventional interpretation of St. Cyprian of Carthage, possibly in error and possibly ecclesiological heresy, in which case I will retract it if my bishop ever tells me to.  For now, it is simply my personal theologoumemnon.


Quote

But then you see liturgical abuses on YouTube, such as at the World Youth Conference, that are a ridiculous, pathetic sight to behold, with no reverence, and no hieratic dignity. 

Base your view on our teachings; the abuses you describe might not follow those teachings, or some of it may just be cultural differences. You don't have to be high-church like me to be Catholic; just don't tell me I can't be high-church.


I would not presume to tell you any such thing.  Nor did I.

Quote


Is Raymond Leo Cardiinal Burke a true bishop?  I think so.  Is the bishop of Madison, the bishop of Marquette, the Archbishop of San Francisco?  I think so.  Are most of the Eastern Catholic bishops true bishops?  Yes...

You're almost home. This isn't what Orthodoxy teaches.

It is my theologoumemnon.  In my private opinion, at least some Roman Catholic bishops are legitimate holders of the office, whereas others are not.  This is not the official teaching of the Orthodox Church.

What the Orthodox Church officially teaches is that we can say with certainty only bishops in the Orthodox Church are true bishops.  Metropolitan Kallistos Ware taught that we can positively affirm where the church is, but we cannot say with certainty where it is not.  Other Orthodox bishops disagree and say that we can say anyone who is not an Orthodox bishop is not a bishop, but then the definition of Orthodoxy comes into play; the Ecumenical Patriarchate and some in the canonical EO church opposed to ecumenism might say it is any bishop in communion with the EP or the canonical EO church.  With Old Calendarists, the answer becomes more complicated and so on.

When it comes to ecumenism, I am on the extreme liberal end of the Orthodox theological spectrum, recognizing the possibility of legitimacy even in the traditionalist Continuing Anglican churches of Anglo Catholic orientation, and consider that had communion between the Anglicans and the Orthodox happened in the early 20th century, it would have been a very good thing, and if there is mass repentance in Anglicanism, it could still happen.  As it stands, if an Anglo Catholic member of the Communion like the Church of Ghana, which does not ordain women, broke with Canterbury, it could join with us, and that would be splendid, and in such an event we would not need to redo all of the ordinations or confirmations (since, as recently as the 1940s, ROCOR received some Anglican clergy simply by vesting, apparently recognizing their orders despite the opinion of St. Tikhon and others that the ordination liturgy in the Anglican communion was wholly invalid and inefficacious).

Conversely, in all other respects, such as church architecture or liturgics, I am on the extreme conservative end; I desire towering iconostases, the revival of certain liturgies celebrated regularly in the church as recently as the 1960s, and of other disused parts of our liturgical patrimony, the rejection of various abbreviations of the service implemented in some jurisdictions, and the complete removal of any trace of praise and worship music (which is invading the extra-diocesan parishes of the Coptic church like a fungal infection).
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2017, 01:10:16 AM »
At every Novus Ordo mass I have had the misfortune of attending.
I agree that it may be a subtle, yet real peer pressure, along the lines of "everyone is doing it", or not so subtle, as when others stare at you as they stand up to receive.

In my experience, it's less so in Hispanic liturgies, where the people still have a modicum of conscience about the state of their soul and a significant number of attendants remain in the pews during Holy Communion.

Exactly.  When everyone lines up, and you see no one even crossing their arms to signal the priest they wish for a blessing and not the Eucharist, the peer pressure is intense.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.