OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 06:44:49 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: difference between vespers and liturgy ?  (Read 3707 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
spiltteeth
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 88



« on: September 05, 2010, 07:36:41 PM »

Hi all! I remember, as a child, some people I knew would go to mass not Sun morning but Sat night because, I assumed, they couldn't make it on Sun.

I've been told in the Orthodox church vespers is at Sat night, but liturgy is Sunday.

Whats the difference?

If I could go Sat night instead of Sun morning it would simplify my life! 'Course I'm still just starting out...
Thanks!
Logged
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 08:09:02 PM »

Technically, we are supposed to go to both if at all possible. They are different services altogether.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
dcommini
Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,198


Beannachd Dia dhuit

dcommini
WWW
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 08:36:10 PM »

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that vespers is a prayer service (like evening prayers said before dinner) whilst the Divine Liturgy is a celebration service. The main point of the liturgy (from what I have been taught) is the celebration of the Eucharist.

I hope this helps.
Logged

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,458


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 11:37:17 PM »

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that vespers is a prayer service (like evening prayers said before dinner) whilst the Divine Liturgy is a celebration service. The main point of the liturgy (from what I have been taught) is the celebration of the Eucharist.

I hope this helps.
Vespers is often prayed as a means of preparing for the next morning's Divine Liturgy.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 11:37:37 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,083



« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2010, 12:39:35 AM »

Vespers is the first service of the day, the day starting at sundown.  If the cycle of services is understood, Vespers tells the story of the creation of the World and Man, and Man's subsequent fall.  The "theme" of Matins (served right after Vespers in the Russian Church as part of the Vigil) celebrates the arrival of the Word into to World to begin His mission of Salvation.  The cycle culminates in the Divine Liturgy, where the suffering and death of Christ is overshadowed by His Resurrection, and the Salvation of Man.  The Vespers is part of one unified whole of the worship cycle and not a service in and of itself.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2010, 03:38:33 AM »

Hi all! I remember, as a child, some people I knew would go to mass not Sun morning but Sat night because, I assumed, they couldn't make it on Sun.

I've been told in the Orthodox church vespers is at Sat night, but liturgy is Sunday.

Whats the difference?

If I could go Sat night instead of Sun morning it would simplify my life! 'Course I'm still just starting out...
Thanks!

In the East, we much more commonly use the non-Eucharistic services of the canonical hours.

The service on Saturday night is usually the hour called Vespers, which is not a Eucharistic service.

Usually only the service on Sunday morning is the Holy Eucharist.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
JLatimer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,202



« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2010, 10:20:43 AM »

Ditto punch
Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2010, 12:12:42 PM »

Well put, Punch.
AFAIK the reason we do not perform the normative Hours of the OO in most of our churches, correct me if I'm wrong, but, (only Monasteries) is that it gives us the ability to celebrate Liturgy everyday, though this is seldom taken advantage of nowadays.   Though both are meet and right.
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,012


« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2010, 03:15:43 PM »

Right, I think the OP is talking about the post-Vatican II RC practice of celebrating Mass on Saturday evenings, the so-called "Vigil" Mass. There is no corresponding Saturday night Liturgy in the Orthodox Church. Vespers is a prayer service only, with no Eucharist. There are some Vesperal Liturgies appointed for various times of the year, although I believe in practice they are celebrated in the morning by most parishes, e.g. the Lenten Presanctified Liturgies, or the Vesperal Liturgies on the Eves of Christmas and Theophany.

If you really can't make it Sunday morning, then of course the Saturday evening service is the best you can do. But if it's really a matter of a small inconvenience, you should try to make it Sunday morning, since the Divine Liturgy is the most important service, and you should put the greatest effort into attending that.
Logged
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2010, 03:25:19 PM »

Right, I think the OP is talking about the post-Vatican II RC practice of celebrating Mass on Saturday evenings, the so-called "Vigil" Mass. There is no corresponding Saturday night Liturgy in the Orthodox Church. Vespers is a prayer service only, with no Eucharist. There are some Vesperal Liturgies appointed for various times of the year, although I believe in practice they are celebrated in the morning by most parishes, e.g. the Lenten Presanctified Liturgies, or the Vesperal Liturgies on the Eves of Christmas and Theophany.

If you really can't make it Sunday morning, then of course the Saturday evening service is the best you can do. But if it's really a matter of a small inconvenience, you should try to make it Sunday morning, since the Divine Liturgy is the most important service, and you should put the greatest effort into attending that.
do you have a source for that info? very interesting..
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,458


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2010, 03:55:47 PM »

Right, I think the OP is talking about the post-Vatican II RC practice of celebrating Mass on Saturday evenings, the so-called "Vigil" Mass. There is no corresponding Saturday night Liturgy in the Orthodox Church. Vespers is a prayer service only, with no Eucharist. There are some Vesperal Liturgies appointed for various times of the year, although I believe in practice they are celebrated in the morning by most parishes, e.g. the Lenten Presanctified Liturgies, or the Vesperal Liturgies on the Eves of Christmas and Theophany.

If you really can't make it Sunday morning, then of course the Saturday evening service is the best you can do. But if it's really a matter of a small inconvenience, you should try to make it Sunday morning, since the Divine Liturgy is the most important service, and you should put the greatest effort into attending that.
I would offer one caveat to that, though.  If you go only to the Divine Liturgy, you'll miss most of the hymnography specific to the feast of the day, which is sung only during Vespers and Matins/Vigil.  If one cannot receive the Holy Gifts because one is not Orthodox, or for some other reason, I would recommend Vespers as the service most beneficial, since this is where you'll hear most of the feast-specific hymnography.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 03:56:45 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,012


« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2010, 04:17:56 PM »

Good point. Also, strictly speaking the unbaptized can only attend the first half of Divine Liturgy in any case (you can ask the priest about that). I forgot the OP is a catechumen or inquirer.

If you're going to a Russian-tradition church, they will probably do Vespers and Matins together on Saturday evening, so yes, you'll hear most of the dogmatic hymnography during those services. On Sunday morning, try to make it for the first half of liturgy so you can hear the Epistle and Gospel, but then you can leave at the dismissal of catechumens.
Logged
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,083



« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2010, 04:23:27 PM »

Right, I think the OP is talking about the post-Vatican II RC practice of celebrating Mass on Saturday evenings, the so-called "Vigil" Mass. There is no corresponding Saturday night Liturgy in the Orthodox Church. Vespers is a prayer service only, with no Eucharist. There are some Vesperal Liturgies appointed for various times of the year, although I believe in practice they are celebrated in the morning by most parishes, e.g. the Lenten Presanctified Liturgies, or the Vesperal Liturgies on the Eves of Christmas and Theophany.

If you really can't make it Sunday morning, then of course the Saturday evening service is the best you can do. But if it's really a matter of a small inconvenience, you should try to make it Sunday morning, since the Divine Liturgy is the most important service, and you should put the greatest effort into attending that.
I would offer one caveat to that, though.  If you go only to the Divine Liturgy, you'll miss most of the hymnography specific to the feast of the day, which is sung only during Vespers and Matins/Vigil.  If one cannot receive the Holy Gifts because one is not Orthodox, or for some other reason, I would recommend Vespers as the service most beneficial, since this is where you'll hear most of the feast-specific hymnography.

I am not familiar with the traditions of the OCA, but while Vespers has quite a bit of the hymnography of the day, the full canon of Matins usually has more since it contains far more verses.  Does anyone other than the Old Calendarists chant the full Matins canon?
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,458


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2010, 04:26:23 PM »

Good point. Also, strictly speaking the unbaptized can only attend the first half of Divine Liturgy in any case (you can ask the priest about that). I forgot the OP is a catechumen or inquirer.

If you're going to a Russian-tradition church, they will probably do Vespers and Matins together on Saturday evening, so yes, you'll hear most of the dogmatic hymnography during those services. On Sunday morning, try to make it for the first half of liturgy so you can hear the Epistle and Gospel, but then you can leave at the dismissal of catechumens.
I believe the OP actually identified himself as a new convert, not as an inquirer or catechumen, which makes regular attendance of the Divine Liturgy much more important, now that he can attend the whole service, strictly speaking.  (FWIW, many Orthodox churches no longer enforce the expulsion of catechumens and other non-Orthodox before the Liturgy of the Eucharist, if they read the prayers of expulsion at all.)
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,458


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2010, 04:27:52 PM »

Right, I think the OP is talking about the post-Vatican II RC practice of celebrating Mass on Saturday evenings, the so-called "Vigil" Mass. There is no corresponding Saturday night Liturgy in the Orthodox Church. Vespers is a prayer service only, with no Eucharist. There are some Vesperal Liturgies appointed for various times of the year, although I believe in practice they are celebrated in the morning by most parishes, e.g. the Lenten Presanctified Liturgies, or the Vesperal Liturgies on the Eves of Christmas and Theophany.

If you really can't make it Sunday morning, then of course the Saturday evening service is the best you can do. But if it's really a matter of a small inconvenience, you should try to make it Sunday morning, since the Divine Liturgy is the most important service, and you should put the greatest effort into attending that.
I would offer one caveat to that, though.  If you go only to the Divine Liturgy, you'll miss most of the hymnography specific to the feast of the day, which is sung only during Vespers and Matins/Vigil.  If one cannot receive the Holy Gifts because one is not Orthodox, or for some other reason, I would recommend Vespers as the service most beneficial, since this is where you'll hear most of the feast-specific hymnography.

I am not familiar with the traditions of the OCA, but while Vespers has quite a bit of the hymnography of the day, the full canon of Matins usually has more since it contains far more verses.  Does anyone other than the Old Calendarists chant the full Matins canon?
Having spoken with a reader in a Greek church, I'm not sure if the Greek churches have ever read the canon as part of Matins/Orthros.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 04:28:05 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,012


« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2010, 04:48:41 PM »

At St Markella's they read only part of the canons I believe (they use the Violakis typicon in any case, which means I usually get lost at this point in the service). I talked to some clergy who complained about such laxity, but I have never heard of omitting the canons altogether. That really is lazy!
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,458


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2010, 05:21:40 PM »

At St Markella's they read only part of the canons I believe (they use the Violakis typicon in any case, which means I usually get lost at this point in the service). I talked to some clergy who complained about such laxity, but I have never heard of omitting the canons altogether. That really is lazy!
I'm not sure it has anything to do with laziness.  I think it more likely a fundamental difference in liturgical development through history.  If my Greek reader friend is correct, it sounds to me as if the Greek churches never even made the canon part of their Orthros service.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 05:23:04 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,012


« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2010, 05:37:43 PM »

Well that is utterly incorrect, unless there is some misunderstanding going on here. The Violakis typicon, which was the last comprehensive liturgical reform before the calendar schism, made some major changes to the Sunday Orthros, which was to have all the Katavasiae sung after the Ninth Ode, rather than individually after each ode as St Sabbas' typicon prescribes, up until the Katavasia of the Eighth, then the Sunday Gospel was read (having been moved from its proper place before the Canons), then Psalm 50 and "save, O Lord, thy people…", then the Magnificat, then the Katavasia of the Ninth, then Matins proceeds as normal with the Small Litany and the Exapostilaria. But the revision certainly did not abolish the canons completely.

At St Markella's, they often abbreviate further, chanting the odes of the canons up until the Sixth, then after reading the Kontakion, Oikos and Synaxarion, they jump straight to the Katavasiae, and it was this abbreviation that those clergymen I referred to were complaining about.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,458


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2010, 06:34:20 PM »

Well that is utterly incorrect, unless there is some misunderstanding going on here.
I will admit that that may be true.  The conversation I had with my friend was a few years ago, and I may have forgotten many of the details of what we talked about, such as context.  I also recall from witnessing one of his services that they did read the Canon for Sunday Orthros.  Their rendition of it, however, seemed to have been organized according to a structure I didn't recognize from my many times praying Sunday Matins in my church.  (For those of you who may be confused by my use of Matins and Orthros interchangeably, the two names are merely different names for the same service.  Matins is derived from the French word for morning, while Orthros is Greek.)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 06:34:50 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,012


« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2010, 06:57:51 PM »

Right, I experience the same confusion. All the English-language service books I know assume the unaltered Sabbas Typicon, but Greek-language churches practically all use the Violakis version. The HOCNA cathedral of St Mark of Ephesus in Boston (which is their ethnic Greek parish) uses a kind of hybrid typicon, since they do the Gospel in the "right" place, i.e. before the canons, but they chant all the katavasiae together after the canons and before the Magnificat.
Logged
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2010, 07:54:25 PM »

Right, I think the OP is talking about the post-Vatican II RC practice of celebrating Mass on Saturday evenings, the so-called "Vigil" Mass. There is no corresponding Saturday night Liturgy in the Orthodox Church. Vespers is a prayer service only, with no Eucharist. There are some Vesperal Liturgies appointed for various times of the year, although I believe in practice they are celebrated in the morning by most parishes, e.g. the Lenten Presanctified Liturgies, or the Vesperal Liturgies on the Eves of Christmas and Theophany.

If you really can't make it Sunday morning, then of course the Saturday evening service is the best you can do. But if it's really a matter of a small inconvenience, you should try to make it Sunday morning, since the Divine Liturgy is the most important service, and you should put the greatest effort into attending that.
do you have a source for that info? very interesting..
Sorry, thought it said EP, not Original Poster. OOPS! Tongue
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,083



« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2010, 08:51:14 PM »

At St Markella's they read only part of the canons I believe (they use the Violakis typicon in any case, which means I usually get lost at this point in the service). I talked to some clergy who complained about such laxity, but I have never heard of omitting the canons altogether. That really is lazy!
I'm not sure it has anything to do with laziness.  I think it more likely a fundamental difference in liturgical development through history.  If my Greek reader friend is correct, it sounds to me as if the Greek churches never even made the canon part of their Orthros service.

I have a Greek prayer book that certainly alludes to the use of the Canons during the Othros, and my Greek Pentecostarion definitely has the Canons included with the Sunday services (and also during the week).  Both these books are from Old Calendar Greeks, however.  But I think that you have a point regarding Liturgical development.  I was always told that the Greeks have a different typikon for use in the parishes and the monasteries, where the Russians use the same, more strict, rite for both.  This is not laziness, it is just the way that it always has been.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,012


« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2010, 09:13:50 PM »

Well, laziness may be an exaggeration in some cases. But not all cases.
Logged
John Larocque
Catholic
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox
Posts: 530


« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2010, 10:50:55 PM »

Right, I think the OP is talking about the post-Vatican II RC practice of celebrating Mass on Saturday evenings, the so-called "Vigil" Mass.

Yes and no. The "vesperal" Saturday Night liturgy change came from Pius XII after World War II. The Holy Week reforms predate Vatican II by a few years as well. Neither were universally accepted by more traditional Catholics, but after 1970, these issues seemed tiny by comparison...

Quote
I believe in practice they are celebrated in the morning by most parishes, e.g. the Lenten Presanctified Liturgies, or the Vesperal Liturgies on the Eves of Christmas and Theophany.

A couple of Antiochian parishes perform "Vesperal" evening liturgies on the evening of other major feasts. Essentially Vespers is cancelled and a variant of the morning liturgy is celebrated in its place.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 10:53:17 PM by John Larocque » Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,012


« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2010, 10:58:56 PM »

OK thanks for the info about the RC practice.

I didn't get what you were saying about the Antiochian practice at first, but now I see. Doing the liturgy the evening before and canceling Vespers entirely seems too much. The thing is, there's no limit to how much you can revise the Typicon to make things more convenient for parishioners. You have to draw the line somewhere. I think if the Typicon says the liturgy has to be celebrated some time in the morning on the day itself, that gives you a wide space of time to do things. If it's a Great Feast, the people should at least try to get the day off work to go to Church. I know even at St Markella's people work on feast days, and I'm not interested in judging who is absent with a good excuse and who not. But at some point you have to ask yourself "are we going to organize our lives around the Church? or are we going to organize the Church around our (worldly) lives?"
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 11:05:54 PM by Jonathan Gress » Logged
John Larocque
Catholic
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox
Posts: 530


« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2010, 11:07:13 PM »

That sounds kind of weird. Why would they abolish the vesperal part if its in the evening?

I haven't attended that many of them so I'm not sure what the difference is between an evening liturgy and a regular Sunday liturgy. They've posted the texts at the site though:
http://www.antiochian.org/1110643387

It seems to be just an Antiochian thing. Greeks maintain morning Great Feast liturgies, and if you can't make it out (hey, some people work!) you can always attend Vespers. I attended Greek Vespers for August 14/15 last year and it was packed. I imagine it's mostly retirees and homemakers  who show up the next morning, though even the Greeks have have been known to do odd things as well: a liturgy of the pre-sanctified gifts *preceding* the actual Morning Liturgy at the one local parish, so you can receive communion before going to work.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 11:08:52 PM by John Larocque » Logged
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2010, 02:41:30 AM »

The two Serbian churches I attend/ed regularly have both been in the habit of , if doing a night DLiturgy, performing a Vespers and Matins as well. But they are both under the same Bishop so I couldn't say for sure if this is universal in our Jurisdiction.
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2010, 06:35:29 AM »

I'm not sure it has anything to do with laziness.  I think it more likely a fundamental difference in liturgical development through history.  If my Greek reader friend is correct, it sounds to me as if the Greek churches never even made the canon part of their Orthros service.

The canons are often abbreviated (in my parish, only the 1st and 3rd verses of each Ode are sung. Even with these and other abbreviations, the service still lasts for 1h30+, so not singing them in their entirety is understandable). I have never attended a Greek parish where they were omitted altogether though.
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,517



« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2010, 10:27:25 AM »

To get back to the OP's question, if I may I would like to quote Punch's post in part as it definitively answers the question:

"Vespers is the first service of the day, the day starting at sundown.  If the cycle of services is understood, Vespers tells the story of the creation of the World and Man, and Man's subsequent fall.  The "theme" of Matins (served right after Vespers in the Russian Church as part of the Vigil) celebrates the arrival of the Word into to World to begin His mission of Salvation.  The cycle culminates in the Divine Liturgy, where the suffering and death of Christ is overshadowed by His Resurrection, and the Salvation of Man."

I would add a few additions to the Sunday cycle: the Sacrament of Penance (confession, reconciliation) that is usually done on Saturday night, before or after Vespers; the Sunday morning pre-communion prayers; the Orthros or Hours that are done just before the Divine Liturgy; the post-communion prayers; and the Agape Meal or Coffee Hour that follows the Liturgy (although not a prayer service, I think these are also part of the cycle).
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
spiltteeth
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 88



« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2010, 12:18:37 PM »

Thanks for the answers! I especially like Jonathan Geese's comment :

 
Quote
But at some point you have to ask yourself "are we going to organize our lives around the Church? or are we going to organize the Church around our (worldly) lives?"

Is it common for people to go to both? Or is that really only a small minority?
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2010, 12:31:09 PM »

In my church only a handful of people attend both Vespers and Divine Liturgy regularly. I suspect that's true in many other places. I try to make it whenever I can but I often fall short.

The Vespers service is much shorter than the Liturgy- usually about a half hour. It might be a good service for introducing people to Orthodoxy who aren't yet up to standing for an hour and a half or more.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
Subdeacon Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 195



« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2010, 01:13:03 PM »

The Vespers service is much shorter than the Liturgy- usually about a half hour.

 Shocked

I was at a pilgrimage one Saturday last year organised by a different parish.  There was a Liturgy in the Morning, the Lesser Blessing of the Waters and a picnic lunch.  The day closed with what I can only call turbo-Vespers.  My parish priest's 12-yr-old daughter and I assisted with the choir (we are usually the only two on the kliros for Vespers at our own parish so it was refreshing to be able to sing the stikhera tones in full harmony with other people), and at various points we kept looking across at each other in disbelief at the chunks of the service that were just being left out.  She said to me afterwards, 'Where did half of Vespers go?'  That lasted about half an hour.  I assumed the abbreviations were done because people had travelled considerable distances to be there for this pilgrimage and had to make the journey back home.

If I don't do the Ninth Hour, and if I abbreviate the second and third stases of the first kathisma to one psalm each (bearing in mind we use the commonly abbreviated version of the first stasis anyway), and if no readings are appointed, and if we don't do the Litya, then I can probably make Great Vespers on Saturday evenings squeeze into 40-45 minutes.  Even without the Ninth Hour, Great Vespers, done in full, takes about an hour.

If anybody has experienced Great Vespers taking half an hour in a normal parish setting, the question has to be asked: exactly how fast do your clergy and choir sing or how much do you leave out?  Daily Vespers isn't immensely shorter.  I can understand some minor abbreviations done occasionally for pastoral reasons, (if it's the middle of winter, the heating has given out, and there are elderly people present), but cutting it in half?  Perhaps I just sing too slowly. Huh

M
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 01:19:07 PM by Subdeacon Michael » Logged

'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,517



« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2010, 03:18:11 PM »

The Vespers service is much shorter than the Liturgy- usually about a half hour.

 Shocked

I was at a pilgrimage one Saturday last year organised by a different parish.  There was a Liturgy in the Morning, the Lesser Blessing of the Waters and a picnic lunch.  The day closed with what I can only call turbo-Vespers.  My parish priest's 12-yr-old daughter and I assisted with the choir (we are usually the only two on the kliros for Vespers at our own parish so it was refreshing to be able to sing the stikhera tones in full harmony with other people), and at various points we kept looking across at each other in disbelief at the chunks of the service that were just being left out.  She said to me afterwards, 'Where did half of Vespers go?'  That lasted about half an hour.  I assumed the abbreviations were done because people had travelled considerable distances to be there for this pilgrimage and had to make the journey back home.

If I don't do the Ninth Hour, and if I abbreviate the second and third stases of the first kathisma to one psalm each (bearing in mind we use the commonly abbreviated version of the first stasis anyway), and if no readings are appointed, and if we don't do the Litya, then I can probably make Great Vespers on Saturday evenings squeeze into 40-45 minutes.  Even without the Ninth Hour, Great Vespers, done in full, takes about an hour.

If anybody has experienced Great Vespers taking half an hour in a normal parish setting, the question has to be asked: exactly how fast do your clergy and choir sing or how much do you leave out?  Daily Vespers isn't immensely shorter.  I can understand some minor abbreviations done occasionally for pastoral reasons, (if it's the middle of winter, the heating has given out, and there are elderly people present), but cutting it in half?  Perhaps I just sing too slowly. Huh

M

No, you are right. I don't think that you can do Great Vespers in less than one hour. Actually, doing it faster sort of defeats its purpose does it not--I mean to start the Sunday cycle so that we can concentrate on the coming Eucharist in a few hours? I can imagine a priest shortening it a bit so that the last confession does not take place too late at night (if there are that many folks who told him that they wish to confess) or if there is expected extreme weather.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,461


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2010, 03:29:28 PM »

Our Great Vespers (which is only the vesperal service) takes about 40-45 minutes, assuming no Litya or extra readings.  The only abbreviation we use is the standard abbreviations of Psalm 103 and the first kathisma.  Other than that, everything is generally "say the black, do the red".  The stichera are usually sung, but if the choir isn't familiar enough with the tones (a distinct possibility, as the choir usually only consists of 4 people and only one who really knows the music enough to lead), they are simply plainchanted.  This happens maybe once every three weeks.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2010, 04:11:29 PM »

It seems that at our church weekday vespers takes 1/2 hour  while great vespers & vigil takes 1 1/2 hrs. is this the common practice?
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2010, 04:21:23 PM »

Hi all! I remember, as a child, some people I knew would go to mass not Sun morning but Sat night because, I assumed, they couldn't make it on Sun.

I've been told in the Orthodox church vespers is at Sat night, but liturgy is Sunday.

Whats the difference?

If I could go Sat night instead of Sun morning it would simplify my life! 'Course I'm still just starting out...
Thanks!
From my experience, Divine Liturgy is most commonly, throughout the year, done only on Sunday Mornings, though there are a few acception. What you'll find at night on Saturdays is a Great Vespers sometimes followed by a Vigil (including anointing with oil!). It would be good to go, if you can, once a month at least, to a Divine Liturgy to partake of the Eucharist (assuming you get baptized). But either way, go as often, to as many services, as you can. This way you can experience the full life of the liturgical year and immerse yourself in the teachings and the Grace of Christ.
Talk to the Local Parish Priest about your personal work schedule, and ask what should be reasonable. I'm sure you'll find that he will accomodate.
When my wife could not come to church, due to sickness or sometimes our schedule not fitting (that was a crazy time for us), our priest at the time would come over after with presanctified gifts. It was a blessing.   
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2010, 05:04:55 PM »

OK thanks for the info about the RC practice.

I didn't get what you were saying about the Antiochian practice at first, but now I see. Doing the liturgy the evening before and canceling Vespers entirely seems too much. The thing is, there's no limit to how much you can revise the Typicon to make things more convenient for parishioners. You have to draw the line somewhere. I think if the Typicon says the liturgy has to be celebrated some time in the morning on the day itself, that gives you a wide space of time to do things. If it's a Great Feast, the people should at least try to get the day off work to go to Church. I know even at St Markella's people work on feast days, and I'm not interested in judging who is absent with a good excuse and who not. But at some point you have to ask yourself "are we going to organize our lives around the Church? or are we going to organize the Church around our (worldly) lives?"

Vesperal liturgies are common in places where you have numerous parishioners who work or you have a small group who cannot make morning services. The church I attend generally has vespers with Liturgy on the night before a feast. Most of the vespers service is done with the old testament readings and then the liturgy begins with Holy God or thereabouts (I think it may actually start with the gospel reading, its been a while since I went to one).

In response to your question, I ask the following:

Is it better to hold the service the night before and get 50 people to come to communion or hold it the next morning and get 5 people to come to communion?

-Nick
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,012


« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2010, 05:27:15 PM »

Well, there is an implication (implicature?) in your question that everyone should be receiving communion as frequently as possible. I think that depends on the rank of the feast involved, and in general I am not of the opinion that very frequent communion is an appropriate practice in our day for most people, but that's a matter for another discussion. I certainly agree, however, that one should do what one can to get as many people as possible to services on feast days, whether or not they receive Holy Communion.

A lot depends on what the Typicon actually prescribes. If the Typicon says that Vesperal Liturgies are up to the rector, then I don't see a problem. If not, then I think we should think carefully about how much violence we want to do to the typicon in order to accommodate people's worldly lives. For instance, what happens to Matins if you do Liturgy right after Vespers? There is also the fact that the Typicon arranges the readings and hymns from Vespers through Matins to Liturgy in a deliberate order, and disrupting this order disrupts the liturgical harmony that the Fathers bequeathed us.

However, I am not actually clear on what leeway the Typicon gives for these kinds of variations. And you could make the valid point that the Typicon has been revised in the past to meet contemporary needs. Look e.g. at the Greek practice of transferring the Feast of the Annunciation to Pascha Sunday, if it falls on Good Friday or Great Saturday. So I am not going to come down definitely on one side or the other. As long as the revisions to the Church's order are done in an orderly fashion themselves, I don't see what's wrong with it.
Logged
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,083



« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2010, 05:31:25 PM »


In response to your question, I ask the following:

Is it better to hold the service the night before and get 50 people to come to communion or hold it the next morning and get 5 people to come to communion?

-Nick

Depends on your beliefs concerning the Liturgy.  I am not sure that a Liturgy performed outside of the appointed times is, indeed, a Liturgy.  If that is so, what difference does it make how many people attend. 
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,012


« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2010, 05:35:54 PM »


In response to your question, I ask the following:

Is it better to hold the service the night before and get 50 people to come to communion or hold it the next morning and get 5 people to come to communion?

-Nick

Depends on your beliefs concerning the Liturgy.  I am not sure that a Liturgy performed outside of the appointed times is, indeed, a Liturgy.  If that is so, what difference does it make how many people attend. 


That's interesting. It didn't occur to me that celebrating the Liturgy at the wrong time would actually invalidate the service. If that's true, you have a point.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,914


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2010, 05:47:58 PM »

Is it better to hold the service the night before and get 50 people to come to communion or hold it the next morning and get 5 people to come to communion?

Depends; as long as you're not messing with Sunday morning, it is a good question you pose.

Depends on your beliefs concerning the Liturgy.  I am not sure that a Liturgy performed outside of the appointed times is, indeed, a Liturgy.  If that is so, what difference does it make how many people attend. 

I urge you to be careful; a priest may be suspended or defrocked for violating the proper liturgical time, but a Divine Liturgy properly celebrated (w/ people, proper form and all, that is) is indeed a Liturgy.  The church has taken great pains in clarifying that the sacraments are valid unless the celebrant isn't a priest/bishop; celebrating Liturgy after Vespers, or after the 6th hour, instead of after Matins on a feastday will not invalidate the work of the Spirit and the people.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Thomas
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,753



« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2010, 12:03:23 PM »

I have split off the topic responses on two Divine Liturgies in one day and transferred those responses to the Liturgy Forum. Please continue your discussion on the differences between vespers and liturgy here.

Thomas
Convert Issues Forum Moderator
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2010, 09:59:39 PM »

OK thanks for the info about the RC practice.

I didn't get what you were saying about the Antiochian practice at first, but now I see. Doing the liturgy the evening before and canceling Vespers entirely seems too much. The thing is, there's no limit to how much you can revise the Typicon to make things more convenient for parishioners. You have to draw the line somewhere. I think if the Typicon says the liturgy has to be celebrated some time in the morning on the day itself, that gives you a wide space of time to do things. If it's a Great Feast, the people should at least try to get the day off work to go to Church. I know even at St Markella's people work on feast days, and I'm not interested in judging who is absent with a good excuse and who not. But at some point you have to ask yourself "are we going to organize our lives around the Church? or are we going to organize the Church around our (worldly) lives?"
You mean how we keep the roof over our heads, clothes on our backs and food in our children's stomachs?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2010, 10:04:39 PM »


In response to your question, I ask the following:

Is it better to hold the service the night before and get 50 people to come to communion or hold it the next morning and get 5 people to come to communion?

-Nick

Depends on your beliefs concerning the Liturgy.  I am not sure that a Liturgy performed outside of the appointed times is, indeed, a Liturgy.  If that is so, what difference does it make how many people attend.  

The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

It matters to them.

Not ot forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is but exhorting one another and so much the more as ye see the day approaching. Heb. 10:25.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 10:07:00 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,083



« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2010, 10:30:29 PM »


In response to your question, I ask the following:

Is it better to hold the service the night before and get 50 people to come to communion or hold it the next morning and get 5 people to come to communion?

-Nick

Depends on your beliefs concerning the Liturgy.  I am not sure that a Liturgy performed outside of the appointed times is, indeed, a Liturgy.  If that is so, what difference does it make how many people attend.  

The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

It matters to them.

Not ot forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is but exhorting one another and so much the more as ye see the day approaching. Heb. 10:25.

You sound like a good Lutheran.  To heck with Church Order and Tradition.  But, thankfully, we have diversity in this country.  Those that wish to be traditional have parishes they can attend, and those who could care less about Tradition have theirs.  May it always be so. 
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Tags: vespers 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.155 seconds with 73 queries.