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Author Topic: difference between vespers and liturgy ?  (Read 4065 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2010, 01:14:09 AM »


In response to your question, I ask the following:

Is it better to hold the service the night before and get 50 people to come to communion or hold it the next morning and get 5 people to come to communion?

-Nick

Depends on your beliefs concerning the Liturgy.  I am not sure that a Liturgy performed outside of the appointed times is, indeed, a Liturgy.  If that is so, what difference does it make how many people attend.  

The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

It matters to them.

Not ot forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is but exhorting one another and so much the more as ye see the day approaching. Heb. 10:25.

You sound like a good Lutheran.

But a better Orthodox.

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  To heck with Church Order and Tradition. 

Take it up with my boss.  But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. Mat. 12:7. (actually, the rest of the chapter is on point).

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But, thankfully, we have diversity in this country.  Those that wish to be traditional have parishes they can attend, and those who could care less about Tradition have theirs.  May it always be so.
We just have our different Traditions.  The Russians in particular have the Vigil service as their height of piety, and we Arabs have our Churches blown up, the congregants shot at, the priests stoned (usually not to death-they usually do that by stabbing-but throwing rocks at priests and Churches is a common pasttime of Muslim teenagers and even children. At both EO and OO: the Muslims are quite ecumenical on that).  I haven't been so privleged.  The closest I came was being on a taxi in the backwoods where Chrisitans being hacked to death is common enough, stuck with a Muslim brotherhood type, ranting on how all Christians are infidels, rather upset that I admitted to be a Christian and that Christ is God.  Another Muslim (with whom I had just been arguing how Christ was God's Son), btw, inserted himself between me and the Islamist.  May God grant him his reward Mat. 10:42.

So we just show our piety in different ways. The Russians fuss about the difference between half and quarter notes, and we Arabs risk a bullet in the head or a knife in the abdomen for wearing a Cross. In this sign conquer.

While growing up in the States, I was taught to keep my Cross inside my shirt, as it was not jewelry nor decoration.  When I went back to live a while in Egypt, my fellows were rather upset with me. Why, they asked, did I wear my Cross inside my shirt? Was I afraid of the Muslims? Was I ashamed of the Church?  I explained why, and they were satisfied, but as the Russians say "Don't go to your new monastery with your old rule," so I started wearing it outside, while I was Egypt. In this sign conquer.

Not that wearing it outside meant much much longer: I always liked the Coptic custom of a Cross tattoo and got one, like many, many of those of the younger generation, more and more.  The custom had almost died out, but was undergoing a "resurrection" of this discarded tradition, outgrown by many of my parents generation. A friend of mine at the time, Sabry, explained how the Muslims in Egypt were either foreigners or weak.  "If they came from Arabia, they are in my country. But that is Ok, as we are to live peaceably with all men.  If their grandfathers were Christian but apostized, they belong here, but they are weak." Then he pointed to the large Cross on his wrist and said "I have this because my father was strong, my grandfather was strong, my ancestors were strong going back to the beginning of the Church. They were willing to die for this. I am willing to die for this." Not an idle thought in Egypt in the least. Murdered Christians are hardly news there. I'm afraid he was worthy of the crown. In this sign conquer.

But to each his own.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
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Punch
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« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2010, 09:16:36 PM »

Well, that is all heart warming and all, but I am not sure what it has to do with following the Typicon here in the United States.  I had quite a bit of contact with the Egyptian Copts (a redundant term, I believe) in my early years in the Church, and I found them to be quite conservative, sticking very much to their traditions.  I have seen nothing in my studies of them that indicate they have Liturgies in the evening.
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2010, 11:02:24 PM »

Well, that is all heart warming and all, but I am not sure what it has to do with following the Typicon here in the United States.  I had quite a bit of contact with the Egyptian Copts (a redundant term, I believe) in my early years in the Church, and I found them to be quite conservative, sticking very much to their traditions.  I have seen nothing in my studies of them that indicate they have Liturgies in the evening.
LOL. I've only been fortunate to be in Egypt for Christmas and Theophany, in which even the naysayers here approve of their evening divine liturgies, and the Dormition, when I got my Cross.  That was at Zeitun, at an All Night Vigil. And that means literally ALL night.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
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Posts: 5,570



« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2010, 09:33:53 AM »

Well, that is all heart warming and all, but I am not sure what it has to do with following the Typicon here in the United States.  I had quite a bit of contact with the Egyptian Copts (a redundant term, I believe) in my early years in the Church, and I found them to be quite conservative, sticking very much to their traditions.  I have seen nothing in my studies of them that indicate they have Liturgies in the evening.
LOL. I've only been fortunate to be in Egypt for Christmas and Theophany, in which even the naysayers here approve of their evening divine liturgies, and the Dormition, when I got my Cross.  That was at Zeitun, at an All Night Vigil. And that means literally ALL night.

I guess that I should have clarified by saying “evening Liturgies outside of those prescribed in the Typicon”.  But in any case, I have no problem believing that a Vigil for them is all night.  Even their normal Liturgy (St. Mark’s, I believe) was longer than the St. John Chrysostom Liturgy, and very beautiful.   I stopped attending their services because I was the only non-Egyptian in the service, and I would have to go up and read the Epistle and Gospel after the priest was finished because he could not read English, and the Canons required that the readings be in the language of the people.  So, since I cannot understand either Coptic or Arabic, the readings had to also be in English for my benefit.  One of the men would also sit with me and translate the sermon.  They were a fascinating people, and one of the main reasons that I have a place in my heart for the OO today.  In my hours of discussions with the men of that congregation, I could find no difference in the way they believed and the way I believed, other than they did a much better job of putting their belief in practice than I did (and this still remains true, and probably always will).  I have a hard time believing that any of them were “ethnic Christians”, in other words, Christians because they were born that way.  Everything about them, from the way they worshiped to the way they conducted themselves oozed forth their love of the Risen Savior.  Being around them made me ashamed of myself.

I guess that is why I have a bit of a hard time understanding where you are coming from on this thread.  I took His Grace Tikhon’s words to be discussing just a matter such as this.  When we see how people like these Coptics hold to their Faith and Traditions giving the near impossible conditions they are in, how can we even think of modifying our Traditions just for convenience?  How can I fear taking a day off to attend a Feast of the Church (even without pay) when men and women such as these Coptics attend the Feast in their land at the peril of their own life?

Somehow, I don’t believe that we are really in disagreement with each other on this topic.  I just don’t think that we are approaching it from the same direction, making it look different to us.  It is not the evening Liturgy in and of itself that I disagree with.  If the Typicon prescribes it, it should be done.  The issue that I have is innovation for the sake of convenience, resulting in the transfer of certain Feasts to times where they are not prescribed.  My way of thinking of matters such as this has always been clouded by my respect for others that do not compromise.  That is one reason that I remain with the Old Calendar.  I have spent time with the Hindu and the Sikhs, as well as Jews and Muslims.  They (the conservative ones) still hold to their traditions, why can’t we?  They manage to keep their calendars and feasts in spite of living in our country, what is our problem?  It is an embarrassment when even the heathen are more fervent in their faith to their false gods than we are to the True God. 
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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