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Author Topic: My version of the Ukrainian Catholic Church's history - no bull  (Read 2464 times) Average Rating: 0
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The young fogey
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« on: September 03, 2010, 03:11:17 PM »

The example I point to of a traditional Catholic church surviving 40 years of an underground existence...

400 years ago Rome had a shot at getting the Russian Orthodox Church...
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:34 PM »

The example I point to of a traditional Catholic church surviving 40 years of an underground existence...

400 years ago Rome had a shot at getting the Russian Orthodox Church...

I tried to read the text under your link, but I did not understand a thing. What is the point of all this? And why is one of the commentators say that Ukraine is a "racially conscious society?" Yet another expert in Ukraine...
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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2010, 10:30:51 AM »



I tried to read the text under your link, but I did not understand a thing. What is the point of all this? And why is one of the commentators say that Ukraine is a "racially conscious society?" Yet another expert in Ukraine...




What a gieroj, ale gieroj!(gieroj- hero)



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mike
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2010, 10:46:03 AM »

Ever heard of Romuald Rajs?
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The young fogey
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2010, 11:51:01 AM »

Heorhij, I wasn't ignoring you but didn't know how to make it clearer. '700 years of Ruthenian history in 30 seconds' covers a lot of the same material.

synLeszka, so you're saying the Ukrainian Catholics got what they deserved (hardly Christian) for being Nazis. Right out of Soviet propaganda, the same Soviets who literally, violently beat the Orthodox into submission. The Ukrainian Catholics had the b*lls to fight and go underground for 40 years and for that they get Godwin's Lawed like by some atheist smart*ss ridiculing Christianity. I'd expect that from such, not from an Orthodox.

(The Russians didn't like the Jews any more than the Galician Ukrainians did. Remember learning about the pogroms?)

I've known both Russian Orthodox (Vlasov's army) and Ukrainian Catholics who served on the German side to try to get rid of the USSR. I don't judge here. Just like in Galicia, there were Byelorussians (there's a book, The Belarus Secret, about Byelorussia's German-backed Ostrowsky government like the Ukraine's and how the US hid some of these people in America after the war) and Russians who welcomed the Germans as liberators, reopening the churches etc. So watch it: that one pointing finger means three pointing back at you.

mike: no, I don't know of him.
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synLeszka
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2010, 12:01:19 PM »

Heorhij, I wasn't ignoring you but didn't know how to make it clearer. '700 years of Ruthenian history in 30 seconds' covers a lot of the same material.

synLeszka, so you're saying the Ukrainian Catholics got what they deserved (hardly Christian) for being Nazis. Right out of Soviet propaganda, the same Soviets who literally, violently beat the Orthodox into submission. The Ukrainian Catholics had the b*lls to fight and go underground for 40 years and for that they get Godwin's Lawed like by some atheist smart*ss ridiculing Christianity. I'd expect that from such, not from an Orthodox.

(The Russians didn't like the Jews any more than the Galician Ukrainians did. Remember learning about the pogroms?)

I've known both Russian Orthodox (Vlasov's army) and Ukrainian Catholics who served on the German side to try to get rid of the USSR. I don't judge here. Just like in Galicia, there were Byelorussians (there's a book, The Belarus Secret, about Byelorussia's German-backed Ostrowsky government like the Ukraine's and how the US hid some of these people in America after the war) and Russians who welcomed the Germans as liberators, reopening the churches etc. So watch it: that one pointing finger means three pointing back at you.

mike: no, I don't know of him.
Young fogey, I didn't say anything of that kind. I was trying to illustrate why one of the commentators of your link said that Ukraine is a racially conscious society. I just wanted to provide proof for that assertion. Don't paint me as the devil. In my opinion, Ukraine's history is hopeless.
Romuald Rajs, the Armia Krajowa, Narodowe Siły Zbrojne,et cetera... Something which practically no one outside Poland knows about. Who could believe that for the first 10 years of Soviet rule in Poland there were underground guerillas who fought against the communist regime. The majority of Poles don't even know about it and even less know about it outside of Poland. I'm sorry but laugh at me know, I listen to Radio Maryja I read Nasz Dziennik and Niezależna Gazeta Polska (not "Polska the Times" but "Niezależna Gazeta Polska"). That's were I found out about these people who fought against the Communists.

Do you know that in the NSZ, there were many Serbian Orthodox Chetniks who fought alongside the "backward, retrograde, Catholic" NSZ?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 12:10:00 PM by synLeszka » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2010, 12:03:38 PM »

Heorhij, I wasn't ignoring you but didn't know how to make it clearer. '700 years of Ruthenian history in 30 seconds' covers a lot of the same material.

synLeszka, so you're saying the Ukrainian Catholics got what they deserved (hardly Christian) for being Nazis. Right out of Soviet propaganda, the same Soviets who literally, violently beat the Orthodox into submission. The Ukrainian Catholics had the b*lls to fight and go underground for 40 years and for that they get Godwin's Lawed like by some atheist smart*ss ridiculing Christianity. I'd expect that from such, not from an Orthodox.

(The Russians didn't like the Jews any more than the Galician Ukrainians did. Remember learning about the pogroms?)

I've known both Russian Orthodox (Vlasov's army) and Ukrainian Catholics who served on the German side to try to get rid of the USSR. I don't judge here. Just like in Galicia, there were Byelorussians (there's a book, The Belarus Secret, about Byelorussia's German-backed Ostrowsky government like the Ukraine's and how the US hid some of these people in America after the war) and Russians who welcomed the Germans as liberators, reopening the churches etc. So watch it: that one pointing finger means three pointing back at you.

mike: no, I don't know of him.

Just what is the point of this discussion please? Why did you introduce the topic?
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The young fogey
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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2010, 12:08:29 PM »

synLeszka: OK, thanks. Now I understand you. That was the Anti-Gnostic, not me, on 'race-consciousness'. Bringing race into a discussion of Ukrainianism vs Russianism doesn't make sense as of course they're the same race; just closely related but different cultures, like Spanish and Portuguese or English and Scottish.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 12:09:02 PM by The young fogey » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2010, 12:14:20 PM »

synLeszka: OK, thanks. Now I understand you. That was the Anti-Gnostic, not me, on 'race-consciousness'. Bringing race into a discussion of Ukrainianism vs Russianism doesn't make sense as of course they're the same race; just closely related but different cultures, like Spanish and Portuguese or English and Scottish.

I agree with that.  But why are you presenting your version of the Ukrainian Catholic Church history?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 12:24:11 PM by Orest » Logged
The young fogey
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2010, 12:23:10 PM »

Because it's related to your history and I thought I was being fair, without the distortions the RC and Orthodox sides often add.
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2010, 12:28:45 PM »

Because it's related to your history and I thought I was being fair, without the distortions the RC and Orthodox sides often add.
Maybe I am the only person who is confused because I keep looking for a link to a history of the Ukrainian Catholic Church written by you and can't find it.
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The young fogey
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2010, 12:30:55 PM »

That's because the Echo comment service is not cool and won't let you link directly to a post. Scroll about six down to read it.
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2010, 12:56:24 PM »

The example I point to of a traditional Catholic church surviving 40 years of an underground existence...

400 years ago Rome had a shot at getting the Russian Orthodox Church...

I tried to read the text under your link, but I did not understand a thing. What is the point of all this? And why is one of the commentators say that Ukraine is a "racially conscious society?"
The self proclaimed defenders of Ukraine of the KP persuasion are the ones who keep on talking about Finn-Ugric blood, Rus' blood oozing about, etc.
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2010, 01:04:02 PM »

What a gieroj, ale gieroj!(gieroj- hero)
No, heroj. gieroj would be ґєрой.
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2010, 01:11:14 PM »

The example I point to of a traditional Catholic church surviving 40 years of an underground existence...

400 years ago Rome had a shot at getting the Russian Orthodox Church...

Quote
400 years ago Rome had a shot at getting the Russian Orthodox Church (there was no formal schism/decree of excommunication; just a gradual estrangement... but Metropolitan Isidore of Kiev who signed the 1400s union of Florence was driven from the country and ended up a cardinal). The 1596 union creating the Ukrainian Catholic Church as we know it wasn't just the self-described Ukrainians today (old Polish Galicia) but Kiev (whose metropolitan signed the union) and Byelorussia too. (I don't think Moscow was a patriarchate yet; the metropolitan of Kiev was the head guy.) The reason: Poland was a powerhouse then and ruled all that land (it held Galicia until Stalin grabbed it, which is why the Uke Catholics rightly say they're not Russian), and the Orthodox under them wanted to stop being persecuted so they approached Rome. It didn't work. The switch didn't matter; they still weren't Polish - for example after WWII the Carpathian mountaineers in Poland lost their guerrilla war with the Communists, who dispersed or killed them and gave their Greek Catholic churches to the local RCs who still have them, like the Soviets did to their Uke cousins across the border, only giving the churches to the Orthodox (the Uke Catholics resurfaced at the end of the USSR and took them back). 
 
Tsarist Russian expansion and yes, persecution got rid of the Greek Catholic Church in their lands, leaving Galicia. And the Austrians who ruled that part of Poland promoted Ukrainianism as a hedge against the Russians, at the same time (the 1800s) the Russkies were pushing Slavic brotherhood to promote their empire. 
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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2010, 01:14:38 PM »


Romuald Rajs, the Armia Krajowa, Narodowe Siły Zbrojne,et cetera... Something which practically no one outside Poland knows about. Who could believe that for the first 10 years of Soviet rule in Poland there were underground guerillas who fought against the communist regime.

And robbed, raped and murdered innocent in the meantime.
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2010, 10:07:30 AM »

What a gieroj, ale gieroj!(gieroj- hero)
No, heroj. gieroj would be ґєрой.

No it's gyeroy.. The word is Russian not Bielarussian or Ukrainian. For a courageous person, the older people say gieroj not heroj.
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synLeszka
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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2010, 10:11:09 AM »


Romuald Rajs, the Armia Krajowa, Narodowe Siły Zbrojne,et cetera... Something which practically no one outside Poland knows about. Who could believe that for the first 10 years of Soviet rule in Poland there were underground guerillas who fought against the communist regime.

And robbed, raped and murdered innocent in the meantime.
If you know your history in 1945, people had practically nothing in their possession. They were lucky to have two pairs of pants.
The Soviet political officers were innocent? Their 48 years of occupation of Poland? When will they pay reparations to us?  
Pamiętasz Ribbentop-Molotov?
17 września 1939 r.?
PRL?
terror stalinowski?
Ryszard Siwiec?
Stan wojenny?

 
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mike
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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2010, 10:39:10 AM »

My grandmother's brother and his wife were taken to forest naked with their hands tied with barbed wire and shot just because they tied to not allow you-call-them-underground-guerillas to steal their tiny supplies of food. They were no communists. I doubt they could read fluently and they didn't care about the politics.

I've talked to people, who as children watched their parents to be killed and their homes to be burnt because of the same reason. Sometimes with as inventive ways as putting rocks through eyeballs. I've heard about they siblings who didn't managed to escape and got killed (even 3-year-old toddlers). I can assure you they did not murdered anyone in Katyń and any of the things you have mentioned. That was their crime. They only were Orthodox Belarusians. I've also met people to scared to talk about it as murderers of their relatives and their descendants live in the same village.

I am not trying to say that all Armia Krajowa did that but some of them - yes.

Ever heard about St. Basil Martysz? A colonel of Polish Army? He was murdered by similar "soldiers" and his daughter had a fetal abortion after she was beaten too.



Pamiętasz Do you remember Ribbentop-Molotov?
17 września September 1939 r.?
PRL People's Republic of Poland ?
terror stalinowski Stalinist terror ?
Ryszard Siwiec?
Stan wojenny martial law?

As a moderator I ask you to use English and only English here unless you translate your foreign words.
Jako moderator proszę Cię, byś używał tutaj tylko angielskiego, albo tłumaczył wszystkie słowa w innych językach.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 10:44:22 AM by mike » Logged
synLeszka
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2010, 11:13:40 AM »

My grandmother's brother and his wife were taken to forest naked with their hands tied with barbed wire and shot just because they tied to not allow you-call-them-underground-guerillas to steal their tiny supplies of food. They were no communists. I doubt they could read fluently and they didn't care about the politics.

I've talked to people, who as children watched their parents to be killed and their homes to be burnt because of the same reason. Sometimes with as inventive ways as putting rocks through eyeballs. I've heard about they siblings who didn't managed to escape and got killed (even 3-year-old toddlers). I can assure you they did not murdered anyone in Katyń and any of the things you have mentioned. That was their crime. They only were Orthodox Belarusians. I've also met people to scared to talk about it as murderers of their relatives and their descendants live in the same village.

I am not trying to say that all Armia Krajowa did that but some of them - yes.

Ever heard about St. Basil Martysz? A colonel of Polish Army? He was murdered by similar "soldiers" and his daughter had a fetal abortion after she was beaten too.


W działaniach przeciw ludności ukraińskiej uczestniczyły tam głównie Bataliony Chłopskie, a także oddziały Armii Ludowej inspirowane przez informatorów wywiadu radzieckiego.

http://nadbuhom.free.ngo.pl/art_0769.html
Armia Ludowa and Bataliony Chłopskie were Communist formations. Armia Ludowa and Armia Krajowa were two different formations which fought against each other. I do not have time to research it but all the websites I glanced at say "bandits"(bandyci) " or "henchmen" (oprawcy). Only this one above says that the majority of acts were done by the AL and Bataliony Chłopskie not the AK.
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2010, 11:18:29 AM »

What a gieroj, ale gieroj!(gieroj- hero)
No, heroj. gieroj would be ґєрой.
No it's gyeroy.. The word is Russian
The sign you posted first (unlike the Soviet one in Russian you posted now):

What a gieroj, ale gieroj!(gieroj- hero)
is in Ukrainian.  України shows that. Russian doesn't have ї.  The Russian would be Степан (or Стефан) Бандера Герой Украины

not Bielarussian or Ukrainian. For a courageous person, the older people say gieroj not heroj.
Only if they are speaking Russian: in both Ukrainian and Belarusian г is pronounced "h," and has been for centuries. I know that the pronunciation "g" is something that Polish shares with Russian.
You say that you know what Bialorusins
Belarussians
and Ukrainians think about Poland. Have you been in these countries and talked to the people?
Have you?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 11:19:30 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2010, 12:23:03 PM »


Romuald Rajs, the Armia Krajowa, Narodowe Siły Zbrojne,et cetera... Something which practically no one outside Poland knows about. Who could believe that for the first 10 years of Soviet rule in Poland there were underground guerillas who fought against the communist regime.

And robbed, raped and murdered innocent in the meantime.
If you know your history in 1945, people had practically nothing in their possession. They were lucky to have two pairs of pants.
The Soviet political officers were innocent? Their 48 years of occupation of Poland? When will they pay reparations to us?
Pamiętasz Ribbentop-Molotov?
Układ monachijski/Munich Pact? Did Poland ever pay reparations to Czechoslavakia? It's not a rhetorical question. I really don't know.

17 września 1939 r.?
1 October 1938 (Warsaw didn't wait for Berlin to implement Munich).

PRL?
IIRP?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Polish_Republic
terror stalinowski?
Akcja Wisła/Operation Vistula?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armia_Ludowa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Poland
Ryszard Siwiec?
Felix Dzerzhinsky?
Stan wojenny?
Ministry of Recovered Territories? Treaty of Riga? West Belarus? Wołyń Voivodeship?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 12:24:06 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2010, 02:17:38 PM »



W działaniach przeciw ludności ukraińskiej uczestniczyły tam głównie Bataliony Chłopskie, a także oddziały Armii Ludowej inspirowane przez informatorów wywiadu radzieckiego.

http://nadbuhom.free.ngo.pl/art_0769.html
Armia Ludowa and Bataliony Chłopskie were Communist formations. Armia Ludowa and Armia Krajowa were two different formations which fought against each other. I do not have time to research it but all the websites I glanced at say "bandits"(bandyci) " or "henchmen" (oprawcy). Only this one above says that the majority of acts were done by the AL and Bataliony Chłopskie not the AK.

Neither Zygmunt "Łupaszka" Szendzielarz nor Romuald "Bury" Rajs were members of Armia Ludowa. They were both from Armia Krajowa and they murdered innocent civilians. It looks like you have not even glanced at Polish Wikipedia.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 02:18:07 PM by mike » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2010, 04:50:34 AM »

ialmisry:
The previous president of Poland, Lech Kaczynski apologised for the occupation of Zaolzie calling it a mortal sin against charity. This gesture was well received. For me, and for many this is the end of the problem.
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« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2010, 07:40:50 AM »

ialmisry:
The previous president of Poland, Lech Kaczynski apologised for the occupation of Zaolzie calling it a mortal sin against charity. This gesture was well received. For me, and for many this is the end of the problem.


For many Poles. How about Czechs?

I can understand your frustration, concerning the Soviet Union, of waiting for an apology when no one exists any longer to apologize.
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« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2010, 02:31:38 PM »

ialmisry:
The previous president of Poland, Lech Kaczynski apologised for the occupation of Zaolzie calling it a mortal sin against charity. This gesture was well received. For me, and for many this is the end of the problem.


For many Poles. How about Czechs?

I can understand your frustration, concerning the Soviet Union, of waiting for an apology when no one exists any longer to apologize.
I thought the current Russian Federation was the legal successor of the USSR.
But they would never apologize for anything.
This is for you Ialmisry, a Russian-Romanian couplet I learnt from my grand-father:
"Davai ceas, davai sotie,
Harasho tovarashie"
"Give me your  watch, give me your wife,
Comradeship is good."
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 02:41:30 PM by augustin717 » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2010, 04:38:50 PM »

ialmisry:
The previous president of Poland, Lech Kaczynski apologised for the occupation of Zaolzie calling it a mortal sin against charity. This gesture was well received. For me, and for many this is the end of the problem.


For many Poles. How about Czechs?

I can understand your frustration, concerning the Soviet Union, of waiting for an apology when no one exists any longer to apologize.
I thought the current Russian Federation was the legal successor of the USSR.

not exactly it seems: the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic seceded from the USSR (I remember the shock in the US when that happened. People were rather confused on how Russia could be independent of the Soviet Union) and then took a part in declaring the latter desolved.  The Russian Federation inherited the carcass. So more an heir than legal successor.

Quote
But they would never apologize for anything.
Of course the disgruntled have the problem that the Soviets had communist supportors (it prided itself as an international movement) in the countries in question. Like Ana Parcher, Gheorghe Dej et alia in Romania.  Hence Korenization.

Quote
This is for you Ialmisry, a Russian-Romanian couplet I learnt from my grand-father:
"Davai ceas, davai sotie,
Harasho tovarashie"
"Give me your  watch, give me your wife,
Comradeship is good."
LOL. I don't have a watch, and you can have my (ex)wife.
Comradeship is good.
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« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2010, 04:44:39 PM »

Every time i click to read the latest  posts ,my add watch alerts me and says it blocked a malicious site.... ???Are you the O P trying to spread a infection or something .... Huh I keep getting these warnings....
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« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2010, 04:48:09 PM »



stashko,

Is it a link to a post on OC.net or a link to a post elsewhere on the internet?

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« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2010, 05:02:02 PM »



stashko,

Is it a link to a post on OC.net or a link to a post elsewhere on the internet?



Its when i click on this [My version of the Ukrainian Catholic Church's history - no bull] the warnings pop up,a few times
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« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2010, 05:08:15 PM »



Okay.  It's probably because one of the pictures on this thread is from a site that your add watch program thinks is dubious.  Until we can be sure, I'm going to lock this thread and make sure our tech folks on the admin staff take a look.

Thanks!

-Schultz.
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