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Author Topic: Byzantine Catholic liturgies- question  (Read 15008 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 28, 2004, 10:21:03 PM »

  Were there any small changes in Eastern Catholic liturgies following the Vatican II Council?
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2004, 11:03:23 PM »

Generally after Vatican II, the Byzantine Catholic liturgies began to look more like their Orthodox counterparts.

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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2006, 04:18:30 PM »

I saw one time the Maronite mass, where priest celebrated face to people.
Why?
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2006, 04:26:51 PM »

Generally after Vatican II, the Byzantine Catholic liturgies began to look more like their Orthodox counterparts.

Generally speaking, I believe that's true.  Especially for the Melkites.  The Ruthenians are moving the other direction though.
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2006, 04:41:14 PM »

Quote
Generally after Vatican II, the Byzantine Catholic liturgies began to look more like their Orthodox counterparts.
Not in Romania, after 1990, though.
The Romanian Greek-Catholic liturgy as broadcasted every Sunday by the Vatican Radio station is greatly abridged, skipping litanies, antiphons etc.
I can't remember exactly whether this was the case before 1989, when Radio Free Europe would broadcast  a Greek Catholic Liturgy every Sunday at 8 AM, which, even though I was just a little kid, I used to listen to, along with my grand-parents.
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 06:06:19 PM »

What everybody else said.

I've seen a Maronite Liturgy and that's what they did.

To try to answer Andrzej's question the Maronites IIRC began as a kind of vagante offshoot of the Syrian Oriental Orthodox church with a variant of that rite. Isolated in the Lebanon (by the rise of Islam for one thing?) they were Monothelites for a while (for a time that theology was favoured in the Byzantine Empire) until the Crusaders discovered them in the Middle Ages and they officially went under Rome (they say they never officially broke with Rome which is probably true). But the Western Catholics didn't really know what to do with them and so the Maronites became extremely latinised, essentially losing their own tradition except for the text and the language. With Vatican II they simply went from mimicking the Tridentine Mass as had been their custom to mimicking the Novus Ordo, hence 'facing the people', lay lectors of both sexes reading from lecterns facing the congregation and so on.
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2006, 10:14:55 AM »

What everybody else said.

I've seen a Maronite Liturgy and that's what they did.

To try to answer Andrzej's question the Maronites IIRC began as a kind of vagante offshoot of the Syrian Oriental Orthodox church with a variant of that rite. Isolated in the Lebanon (by the rise of Islam for one thing?) they were Monothelites for a while (for a time that theology was favoured in the Byzantine Empire) until the Crusaders discovered them in the Middle Ages and they officially went under Rome (they say they never officially broke with Rome which is probably true). But the Western Catholics didn't really know what to do with them and so the Maronites became extremely latinised, essentially losing their own tradition except for the text and the language. With Vatican II they simply went from mimicking the Tridentine Mass as had been their custom to mimicking the Novus Ordo, hence 'facing the people', lay lectors of both sexes reading from lecterns facing the congregation and so on.
Excellent answer. Its funny, though, now in their attempt to reconnect with their Eastern patrimony, doctrinally, they have moved further away from
Rome than any other Eastern Church. It will be interesting to see how the Holy See resolves this matter.
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2006, 11:06:01 AM »

The whole history of liturgical ferment and change within the churches that came in to union with Rome in the Counter-Reformation era is quite interesting.  Initially it was believed on the part of the bishops and priests who came over that they would retain what they had as it was, they were just switching chains of command per se.  Many in the Latin Church at the time had different ideas, and viewed the acceptance of Byzantine liturgical rites as a provisional step on the road to full incorporation in to the Roman Catholic Church.  There were subtle ways to encourage that, and more overt ones such as making Uniate bishops (which they were referred to at the time, though the term is no longer used) subsidiaries of Latin bishoprics or changes and deletions such as happened with the Synod of Zamosc.  In the whole process these churches came to engage in the process of self Latinization.

In the end the Byzantine heritage Eastern Catholic churches have become hybrid churches.  In my experience you will recognize this in various ways if you’re coming from an Orthodox Church.  This is due not only to past influences from the Latin Church, but is part of an ongoing process, even in the post Vatican II era.
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2006, 11:48:21 AM »

Youngfogey,

The Maronites were never Monothelites, they taught the human will never conflicted with the divine will, so while there were two wills according to nature the two functioned as one in operation.  Because of this some Latins, Melkites, and Orthodox love to accuse of Monothelitism, but it doesn't stick.  It doesn't make sense that they would adopt Monothelitism was an attempt at compromise between Constantinople and Antioch, neither of whom the Maronites were fond of. The Maronites defended Chalcedon against the Miaphysites in Antioch, who in turn persecuted them  but also suffered persecution from the Emperors because they were outside their control.

As to their Liturgy since Vatican II, they have restored much of the traditional practice, if at a slower pace than the Byzantines.  The Liturgy has been greatly restored, the only visible Latinizations remaining being the placement of the Creed and the Filioque.  They have adopted some post-Vatican II Latin developments like facing the people, but in general they have shed more than they adopted.

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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 01:07:15 PM »

Common abbreviations one will find in Byzantine Catholic Liturgies:

Little Litanies are not taken.
Antiphons are one verse.
Third Antiphon is not taken among Ruthenians, Second is not taken among Ukrainians.
Litanies of Catechumens and Faithful are not taken.
Litany of Supplication is not taken after Great Entrance.
Litany of Supplication is not taken before Our Father
Litany of Thanksgiving is not taken
(in all cases of Litanies not taken priest recites accompanying prayer quietly)
Incense omitted at weekday Liturgies.
Procession to and Blessing of the Apsidal Throne omitted in weekday Liturgies

Now those used to the Russian Recension will look at our books and see other things absent but this is not due to Latinization or abbreviation but to the fact that the Ruthenian Recension is older than the Russian and does not contain all the accretions the Russian Recension has.  For instance there is no Lenten Troparia of the Third Hour at the Epiklesis.  There are no prayers for the deacon when placing the Holy Body or Commeration particles into the Chalice. A couple other small things that would only be noticed by clergy.

The Synod of Zamosc:
1)Forbade use of the sponge
2)Forbade use of zeon
3)Introduced the Filioque
4)Forbade infant Communion

The first three wer pretty well adhered too, infant Communion survived, although First Holy Communions were practiced.

At no time were Greek Catholic bishops auxillaries to Latin ones.  The Latin Bishop of Eger tried to assert such over the Bishop of Mukachevo, but to no avail.  In the Austrian-Hungarian Empire the Greek Catholic Bishops did have Latin Metropolitans, but they really had no power.


Some Greek Catholic Churches could not be distinguished from the Orthodox, others you can definately tell they are Catholic because of lack of Iconostasis or presence of Sacred Heart images, etc.

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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 01:33:27 PM »

Fr. Deacon Lance, indeed someone coming from a background with a liturgy based on the Nikonian reforms would notice differences in a liturgy based on the Ruthenian recension.  I think it's important as well to keep in mind the liturgy is just part of the overall framework of services.  I think many Orthodox Christians would notice in the Byzantine heritage Eastern Catholic churches something I would term the "mass only mentality" adopted from the Latin Church.  Meaning if it's not a mass or liturgy, it won't be served. 

What that translates in to is nobody serving vespers, matins or various other services throughout the festal cycles that many if not most Orthodox Christians would consider fairly standard.  The anticipated or saturday vigil liturgy (instead of vespers) is another example.  Orthodox Christians would also most likely notice the lack of a proskomedia, the use of pre cut particles and the absence of antidoron.  A lot of stuff is missing, and it is clear it is not seeking the recovery of traditions is not always supported by the hierarchy.  The archeparchial cathedral of the UGCC, really the most prominent UCGG church in the country, does not hold the services I mentioned.  The Ruthenian Church, as I know you are well aware, is preparing major changes to its liturgy that a good many people are predicting will move it further away from its Orthodox siblings.

So I think keeping the bigger picture in mind is important, the liturgy is an important component of the liturgical life of the church, but not the only one.

Quote
Some Greek Catholic Churches could not be distinguished from the Orthodox, others you can definately tell they are Catholic because of lack of Iconostasis or presence of Sacred Heart images, etc.

A very few have done a very good job of recovering their authentic heritage and I have been in one.  I get the feeling the majority don't wish to do so though, and that many Eastern Catholics continue to move further in to the orbit of Roman Catholicism.  When I have been to EC churches, despite many of the similarities, I am always struck by how different it feels.  It can be visual queus such as the ones you mentioned, but it is also a combination of factors that is hard to exactly pinpoint.  It just feels different. I guess I can only say it feels Catholic, not Orthodox.

young fogey had some interesting insights about this topic on his blog.

http://sergesblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/in-fluffya-ukrainian-beacon-shines_19.html
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2006, 01:57:24 PM »

Quote
Some Greek Catholic Churches could not be distinguished from the Orthodox, others you can definately tell they are Catholic because of lack of Iconostasis or presence of Sacred Heart images, etc.

When I was in Timisoara this summer, I was surprised at how immediate the difference was between Orthodox and Greek Catholic parishes.  I never had the chance to attend liturgy at a Catholic parish, but the presence of pews, a ton of Latin devotional items and such made them look very Catholic.  Since this was in a city with a fair amount of Latin Catholics, such blurring of ritual lines makes sense.  But, do the more isolated and rural Greek Catholic parishes do this as well? 
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2006, 02:10:50 PM »

I think that in Ukraine, Slovakia and Romania, the persecution of the Greek Catholics by the Communists, with which the Orthodox collaborated, has signifigantly (and unwittingly) contributed to the Greek Catholics in these areas wishing to distinguish themselves from the Orthodox. For example, a priest from Slovakia who was visitng my parish was diturbed to see we used a three bar cross with slanting bottom, I did not understand his objection till he informed that Greek Catholics in Slovakia now use a three bar cross with straight bottom to distinguish themselvesfrom the Orthodox.  Pews, Rosaries, Sacred Hearts, Stations of the Cross, Benediction are seen by some as a badge of honor.  Their attitude is: "Why should we give these up that which we suffered for, in order to imitate those who persecuted and in somes cases still harass us?  De-Latinization is a very complex issue when all factors are added in unfortunately.

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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2006, 02:41:39 PM »

Persecution historically has been a two way street.  The fact is if that's being used as a reason to ignore what the Vatican in the post VII era has been telling EC's, I think they have a serious issue on their hands.  I don't think the EC's can remain static.  Over time they will either become more Orthodox, or more Catholic.  At some point, as a Catholic Monsignor noted in the commentary on EWTN during the Pope's visit to Constantinople, the possibility of reconciliation will force them to decide.  Those churches in his words at that time would go away.
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2006, 02:53:20 PM »

"At some point, as a Catholic Monsignor noted in the commentary on EWTN during the Pope's visit to Constantinople, the possibility of reconciliation will force them to decide."

The good Monsignor is ignorant of history then.  Take for example ACROD.  The EP was in no rush to force them to de-Latinize and they still retain some.  They just buried a "monsignor" of their own a few weeks back.  In the end if the people and priests are resistant to change then it is very likley things will remain the same. 
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2006, 03:14:20 PM »

The good Monsignor is ignorant of history then.

The Monsignor, whose name escapes me right now, was presented as being someone who was very familiar with the Eastern Catholic Churches and I think was in some way affiliated with CNEWA.

Quote
Take for example ACROD.  The EP was in no rush to force them to de-Latinize and they still retain some.  They just buried a "monsignor" of their own a few weeks back.  In the end if the people and priests are resistant to change then it is very likley things will remain the same. 

Believe me, I am well aware of the Latinizations that persist!  Smiley  In time I think they will become less and less prominent, especially as the generation of + Fr. Dolhy (of blessed memory) move to the next stage of their life in the church.  Even with the Latinizations, the leadership from the start obviously expressed the desire to stay true to their Eastern traditions and to willingly return to the Omophorion of an Orthodox bishop.  I do believe that is where the difference lies, and if reconciliation ever becomes a serious possibility, the Byzantine tradition Eastern Catholics will have to make the same decision.  I believe the Melkites have basically already said they see themselves folding back in to the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, so I don't think any of this is just theoretical or a matter of speculation.  I do think the unnamed Monsignor ultimately was correct.
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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2006, 03:49:11 PM »

The whole history of liturgical ferment and change within the churches that came in to union with Rome in the Counter-Reformation era is quite interesting.  Initially it was believed on the part of the bishops and priests who came over that they would retain what they had as it was, they were just switching chains of command per se.  Many in the Latin Church at the time had different ideas, and viewed the acceptance of Byzantine liturgical rites as a provisional step on the road to full incorporation in to the Roman Catholic Church.  There were subtle ways to encourage that, and more overt ones such as making Uniate bishops (which they were referred to at the time, though the term is no longer used) subsidiaries of Latin bishoprics or changes and deletions such as happened with the Synod of Zamosc.  In the whole process these churches came to engage in the process of self Latinization.

In the end the Byzantine heritage Eastern Catholic churches have become hybrid churches.  In my experience you will recognize this in various ways if you’re coming from an Orthodox Church.  This is due not only to past influences from the Latin Church, but is part of an ongoing process, even in the post Vatican II era.

I don't know. I visited a Greek Orthodox Church that was more westernized than my Ruthenian Parish.
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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2006, 04:03:41 PM »

I don't know. I visited a Greek Orthodox Church that was more westernized than my Ruthenian Parish.

Nobody said there aren't individual EC parishes that don't aspire to the fullest, in fact I think we said there are.  So if you parish doesn't have the Rosary, does have Vespers and Matins, does the Proskomedia instead of using pre cuts, has a married priest, doesn't do anticpated liturgies on Saturday's, does provide antidoron, doesn't use female altar servers, etc., etc.  Consider yourself lucky.  I would say prepare yourself for the new translation of the liturgy, in particular what I gather will be the use of inclusive, or gender neutral language.  Also be prepared for the possibility that at some point your priest could get re-assigned, and things could change drastically.  I've heard of it happening in other places.

The point though isn't what happens in an individual parish, it's what the overall picture is.  The overall picture is the Byzantine heritage EC churches are in hybrid status, and most don't aspire to getting back to be on par with Orthodoxy.  Fr. Deacon Lance pointed out that many have absolutely no desire to.
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2006, 04:31:40 PM »

Nobody said there aren't individual EC parishes that don't aspire to the fullest, in fact I think we said there are.  So if you parish doesn't have the Rosary, does have Vespers and Matins, does the Proskomedia instead of using pre cuts, has a married priest, doesn't do anticpated liturgies on Saturday's, does provide antidoron, doesn't use female altar servers, etc., etc.  Consider yourself lucky.  I would say prepare yourself for the new translation of the liturgy, in particular what I gather will be the use of inclusive, or gender neutral language.  Also be prepared for the possibility that at some point your priest could get re-assigned, and things could change drastically.  I've heard of it happening in other places.

The point though isn't what happens in an individual parish, it's what the overall picture is.  The overall picture is the Byzantine heritage EC churches are in hybrid status, and most don't aspire to getting back to be on par with Orthodoxy.  Fr. Deacon Lance pointed out that many have absolutely no desire to.
I don't mind latinization myself. I am actually a latin who attends both a Ruthenian parish and a latin one. In my mind, it is more important that I am Catholic than which particular sui juri Church I belong to. Substance is more important to me than style.
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2006, 04:42:10 PM »

I don't mind latinization myself. I am actually a latin who attends both a Ruthenian parish and a latin one.

Well, there have certainly have been many Latin traditionalists who have sought out Eastern Rite churches as a refuge from the Novus Ordo madness.  Cradle EC's often like to grouse about them.

Quote
In my mind, it is more important that I am Catholic than which particular sui juri Church I belong to. Substance is more important to me than style.

In my mind the liturgical expression of the church is the substance.  It's the living and breathing theology of the church.  Watch how people worship, and you'll see what they believe.

lex orandi, lex credendi
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2006, 04:52:10 PM »

Papist,

"In my mind, it is more important that I am Catholic than which particular sui juri Church I belong to. Substance is more important to me than style."

Then you are deluded and do not have the mind of the Church on this matter  There is no such thing as I am Catholic first, Byzantine 2nd.  It is as ridiculous as saying I am human first, man second.  One can only be human by being male or female.  One can only be Catholic by belonging to a particular Church, which entails all its specific traditions.

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« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2006, 07:58:39 PM »

Papist,

"In my mind, it is more important that I am Catholic than which particular sui juri Church I belong to. Substance is more important to me than style."

Then you are deluded and do not have the mind of the Church on this matter  There is no such thing as I am Catholic first, Byzantine 2nd.  It is as ridiculous as saying I am human first, man second.  One can only be human by being male or female.  One can only be Catholic by belonging to a particular Church, which entails all its specific traditions.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Because there were so many sui juris Churches during the first century.
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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2006, 08:00:33 PM »

Well, there have certainly have been many Latin traditionalists who have sought out Eastern Rite churches as a refuge from the Novus Ordo madness.  Cradle EC's often like to grouse about them.

In my mind the liturgical expression of the church is the substance.  It's the living and breathing theology of the church.  Watch how people worship, and you'll see what they believe.

lex orandi, lex credendi
Lex orandi Lex Credendi. Yes, this is true, but the different liturgies contain the same substance of the faith. Thus, it doesn't matter to whether pray a Byzantine, Dominican, or Tridentine Liturgy. There is a Unity of Faith in the Diversity of liturgies.
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2006, 08:41:55 PM »

Forgot something on your list.
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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2006, 09:18:41 PM »

Forgot something on your list.
I was just listing some of the different liturgies. But I could have included the Novus Ordo (celebrated properly ad orientem as intended with sacred, and not secular music), or any of the Eastern Liturgies that I left out.
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2006, 10:37:12 AM »

I was just listing some of the different liturgies. But I could have included the Novus Ordo (celebrated properly ad orientem as intended with sacred, and not secular music)

You could have included that, if people did that.  All of which casts an interesting perspective on your other statements.
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2006, 10:57:24 AM »

"Because there were so many sui juris Churches during the first century."

Of course there were. Every house Church with its bishop was sui iuris.  Liturgy followed a general pattern but the many prayers were extemperaneous.

"...the different liturgies contain the same substance of the faith. Thus, it doesn't matter to whether pray a Byzantine, Dominican, or Tridentine Liturgy. There is a Unity of Faith in the Diversity of liturgies."

It is certainly edifying to particiapte in the Liturgies of the other Churches, but my point remains there is no such thing as a generic Catholic.  One is only Catholic by being a Latin Catholic, a Byzantine Catholic, a Maronite Catholic etc.  All are equal, but one must be a member of a particular Church to be Catholic.  And it does matter that one follows the traditions and disciplines of the particular Church he is in, because while all traditions are equal, one must allow themselves to formed by and live by a single tradition if one is to progress spiritually.

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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2006, 11:09:45 AM »

Fr. Deacon, I believe many Roman Catholics continue to simply view the Eastern Catholics as being people who practice a different liturgical rite, and not as people who are members of particular or distinct churches.  Unfortunately, I think the actions of some Eastern Catholics, at times help foster that belief.
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2006, 12:22:45 PM »

Welkodox,

True enough, that is if the realize we exist at all. And also sadly true some ECs consider themselves Byzantine Rite Roman Catholics and think and act accordingly.

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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2006, 04:05:53 PM »

It is certainly edifying to particiapte in the Liturgies of the other Churches, but my point remains there is no such thing as a generic Catholic.  One is only Catholic by being a Latin Catholic, a Byzantine Catholic, a Maronite Catholic etc.  All are equal, but one must be a member of a particular Church to be Catholic.  And it does matter that one follows the traditions and disciplines of the particular Church he is in, because while all traditions are equal, one must allow themselves to formed by and live by a single tradition if one is to progress spiritually.

Fr. Deacon Lance

You are absolutely right. They are not just rites but particular churches.
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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2006, 01:38:12 AM »

Sadly most Latin Rite parish lay people I know tend to view the Eastern Catholic Churches as a novelty or a trinket. It is something different and neat to them as opposed to something of spiritual significance.

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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2006, 05:15:39 PM »

"Because there were so many sui juris Churches during the first century."

Of course there were. Every house Church with its bishop was sui iuris.  Liturgy followed a general pattern but the many prayers were extemperaneous.

"...the different liturgies contain the same substance of the faith. Thus, it doesn't matter to whether pray a Byzantine, Dominican, or Tridentine Liturgy. There is a Unity of Faith in the Diversity of liturgies."

It is certainly edifying to particiapte in the Liturgies of the other Churches, but my point remains there is no such thing as a generic Catholic.  One is only Catholic by being a Latin Catholic, a Byzantine Catholic, a Maronite Catholic etc.  All are equal, but one must be a member of a particular Church to be Catholic.  And it does matter that one follows the traditions and disciplines of the particular Church he is in, because while all traditions are equal, one must allow themselves to formed by and live by a single tradition if one is to progress spiritually.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Fr. Deacon, I agree with you. Each Catholic must belong to a particular Church because that is the way in which ecclesiology has developed. However, there is a hierarchy of importance here. It is much more important that I am a Catholic than which particular Church I am a member of. To not see this is miss the fact that the Church is CATHOLIC in the first place. Does that mean each particular Church is not good? Of course not. However, my membership in the overall body of Christ is more important to me than the ethnic background of my particular church. We can debate all day long how each church has a "different spirituality" but in reality we all simply reflect different aspects of the one spirituality, which is to live a life in the Spirit, as guided by the teachings of Christ's One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Many Blessings in Christ,
Chris
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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2006, 05:17:31 PM »

Sadly most Latin Rite parish lay people I know tend to view the Eastern Catholic Churches as a novelty or a trinket. It is something different and neat to them as opposed to something of spiritual significance.

Christ is in our midst,
Panagiotis
And I do not fit into this category. I see each sui juri Church as intrinsically equal. However, I take a more Catholic view of the Church. It does not matter if we are Ruthenian, or Latin, or Maronite, or Melkite, for we are all members of the ONE body of Christ. There are many gifts but one Spirit.
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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2006, 11:09:43 PM »

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When I was in Timisoara this summer, I was surprised at how immediate the difference was between Orthodox and Greek Catholic parishes.  I never had the chance to attend liturgy at a Catholic parish, but the presence of pews, a ton of Latin devotional items and such made them look very Catholic.  Since this was in a city with a fair amount of Latin Catholics, such blurring of ritual lines makes sense.  But, do the more isolated and rural Greek Catholic parishes do this as well?

Nektarios,
If you can read French, the link below might be of some help to you.
http://www.liturgica.scriptmania.com/fr/transylvanie-rite-byz.html
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« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2006, 01:03:46 AM »

Multumesc!  My reading ability in French is rather limited, but with some effort I can get through much of it.  After scanning it the thing that caught my attention was the difference in liturgical language between the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox - how noticable is this actually?
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« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2006, 01:29:16 AM »

For the common faithful, the most noticeable difference would be the Greek Catholic's church use of "Sfintul SPIRIT" (a late XIX-th century loan word) vs. the Orthodox "Sfintul Duh" of Slavic origin, much older and wider used.
The truth is that there were no linguistical differences between the two sister churches prior to the end of the XIX-th century. By that time however, some Greek Catholic hierarchs began purging the liturgical Romanian of as many Slavonic words as possible, replacing them with Latin borrowings or Romanian creations of their own.
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« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2006, 01:47:07 AM »

Sadly most Latin Rite parish lay people I know tend to view the Eastern Catholic Churches as a novelty or a trinket. It is something different and neat to them as opposed to something of spiritual significance.

Christ is in our midst,
Panagiotis

Fr Deacon Lance and Papist represent what Rome really teaches but...

I wish I could say what you wrote was not true but it is... if they've heard of them at all.
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« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2006, 12:32:54 PM »

Fr Deacon Lance and Papist represent what Rome really teaches but...

I wish I could say what you wrote was not true but it is... if they've heard of them at all.
I think that most Catholics feel that way about the east or have never heard about them simply because here in the west, Eastern Catholic Churches are much smaller and more rare than are latin Parishes.
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« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2006, 12:53:12 PM »

"Latin Rite" parishes ? Please someone direct me to one...

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« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2006, 12:59:26 PM »

"Latin Rite" parishes ? Please someone direct me to one...

james
Do you mean Parishes that celebrate the old Tridentine Liturgy in Latin or do you mean Parishes of the Latin (Roman) Church?
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« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2006, 01:01:57 PM »

You could have included that, if people did that.  All of which casts an interesting perspective on your other statements.
Well, I view Ortho-praxis and "style" as two entirely different things.
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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2006, 01:23:11 PM »

Papist,

I am referring to a parish using accurate english translation of the current Roman Missal...

I do sincerly apologize for the topic drift... Wink

james
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« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2006, 01:56:32 PM »

Papist,

I am referring to a parish using accurate english translation of the current Roman Missal...

I do sincerly apologize for the topic drift... Wink

james
No where in the USA. The current english translation is horrible.
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« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2006, 03:13:18 PM »

Well, I view Ortho-praxis and "style" as two entirely different things.

Yes, you've made this clear in your other posts.  I think you're making an inorrect distinction. 

So long as a guitar mass (or the infamous Halloween mass which was circulating recently) with lay females handing out communion, etc. is done under the authority of a bishop who is in communion with Rome; you would have to say that "style" of worship doesn't take away or invalidate the theological fullness you share with them.  Even if you personally don't care for their worship "style".

That is where the post Vatican II church is at.  It is not about fullness, it's about the lowest common denominator.
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« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2006, 04:50:37 PM »

Yes, you've made this clear in your other posts.  I think you're making an inorrect distinction. 

So long as a guitar mass (or the infamous Halloween mass which was circulating recently) with lay females handing out communion, etc. is done under the authority of a bishop who is in communion with Rome; you would have to say that "style" of worship doesn't take away or invalidate the theological fullness you share with them.  Even if you personally don't care for their worship "style".

That is where the post Vatican II church is at.  It is not about fullness, it's about the lowest common denominator.
I disagree. Even though a Bishop is technically the head liturgist of his diocese, he must be sure that his actions and judgements with regard to the liturgy are in conformity with the norms established and approved by the Holy See. If he allows aberrations like the "Halloween Mass" to occur, then he is not acting in conformity of OrthoPraxis.
Now, perhpas I should clarify what I mean by style. I consider the different litrugies approved by the Holy See and Apostolic Tradtions to all be valid and holy liturgies that at their roots are really just the same thing: the Holy Sacrifice or the Divine Liturgy entrusted by Christ to his Apostles. However, in different parts of the world, these liturgies have devloped in different ways creating different "styles". However, the substance remains the same. This being the case, I do not pit one liturgy against another, for all are the God-glorifying Holy Sacrifice. All the matters to me is that the Liturgies are celebrated properly, reverantly, and in conformity with the established norms.
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« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2006, 09:35:06 PM »

Maronites use monstrances in Eucharistic adoration:
http://www.maronitemonks.org/
This is quite weird.
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« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2006, 09:44:41 PM »

Maronites use monstrances in Eucharistic adoration:
http://www.maronitemonks.org/
This is quite weird.
Oh yeah. Because adoring our Lord in the Eucharist is weird just because its in a western monstrance. Wink
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« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2006, 09:55:21 PM »

Dear Papist,

I did not mean that adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is weird... not even in a monstrance. (In fact several hours ago I went into a Schismatic-Heretical Novus Ordo chapel to adore the Lord in a monstrance. Though I hope this was not a mortal sin.) Its just that its rather odd to see it in an Eastern church.
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« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2006, 11:11:00 PM »

I disagree. Even though a Bishop is technically the head liturgist of his diocese, he must be sure that his actions and judgements with regard to the liturgy are in conformity with the norms established and approved by the Holy See. If he allows aberrations like the "Halloween Mass" to occur, then he is not acting in conformity of OrthoPraxis.

What's your bet the bishop will discipline the priest in question in that instance?

Regardless, westward facing priests, lay (female) EME's, 1 hour pre-communion fasts, etc. are all in the norms and by your standard are valid and legitimate.  That is the orthopraxis of the LCD.
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« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2006, 11:44:28 PM »

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Regardless, westward facing priests, lay (female) EME's, 1 hour pre-communion fasts, etc. are all in the norms and by your standard are valid and legitimate.  That is the orthopraxis of the LCD.

Female readers, no fasts and other liturgical abuses are the de facto orthopraxis of the GOA. 

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What's your bet the bishop will discipline the priest in question in that instance?

Thankfully the patriarch himself has chided the GOA for its grave liturgical abuses like using too much English. 
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« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2006, 11:47:33 PM »

Could someone tell me how long the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil usually lasts? I'm going to go to Sts. Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Catholic Church (http://cyrilandmethodius.com/) tomorrow with my mother, and I have to decide between Basil or John Chrysostom. I want to know how long it is because I have to take my mother into account, who has a short attention span and who has rarely gone to mass in 25 years. I can't imagine her taking in a 3-hour marathon---though at least it is in English (I hope!). If it's enormously long, then I think we'll do St. John Chrysostom.
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« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2006, 12:18:28 AM »

Female readers, no fasts and other liturgical abuses are the de facto orthopraxis of the GOA.

So you've seen unordained female alter servers handling the chalice and serving communion and have knowledge of lay people who don't fast before communion?  You've heard of priests shortening the liturgy to approximately 35 to 40 minutes?  If not, then at best your making an apples and oranges comparison in terms of practice.

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Thankfully the patriarch himself has chided the GOA for its grave liturgical abuses like using too much English.

Whatever issues exist in the GOA, there are obviously also good and able leaders who have kept a standard of practice in the church.  Though certainly it is far from perfect.  My guess from reading these comments and others is

- You're a convert who has developed a negative attitude towards the GOA.
- You're a convert who has developed a negative attitude towards Orthodoxy.
- Both
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« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2006, 12:37:18 AM »

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So you've seen unordained female alter servers handling the chalice and serving communion and have knowledge of lay people who don't fast before communion?

I do know that Metr. Anthony of SF did tonsure female readers.  I also know of a case where he allowed a woman to serve behind the Iconostasis during liturgy.  I've never seen a woman distribute communion, but weren't these steps in the RC the steps the paved the way for such?  The communion fast is routinely and openly ignored as our the seasonal and weekly fasts, IME. 

The reason I say this is, judge not, lest you be judged.  Smug gloating they we Orthodox are better than those heathen Catholics (while we have plenty of our own internal problems) just doesn't sit well with me.  But as long as we keep praying our thanks to the Lord for not making us like those publicans Catholics...

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- You're a convert who has developed a negative attitude towards the GOA.
- You're a convert who has developed a negative attitude towards Orthodoxy.
- Both

Forth time is the charm, none of the above. Merry Christmas Cheesy

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« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2006, 01:06:23 AM »

An interesting article.

http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-04-110-r
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« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2006, 03:40:09 PM »

Well, I went to my first Byzantine Catholic liturgy today. Much like the Greek Orthodox liturgies I sometimes attended several years ago, except it was (blessedly) in English!

A baby was baptized and chrismated---it was touching to see how not only her mother and grandmother wept, but her father and grandfather as well. At the end of the liturgy, the priest held the baby in front of the iconostasis for everyone to walk up and kiss her feet.

Communion was special for me, since I never received it (of course) at the Orthodox liturgies I attended. I had my first taste of the Body and Blood of Christ under the accidents of leavened bread soaked in wine---the priest was a real pro at getting the spoon in and out of our mouths without any unnecessary contact.

My arm got tired from so much crossing---just watch, when I attend mass at my regular parish tomorrow, I'll be crossing myself right to left!

I stumbled over the constant Byzantine chant in the beginning, but by the latter stages of the liturgy, I was chanting along well enough not to be a distraction.

I enjoyed looking at the Divine Liturgy books. They were 20 years old. I'm sure you Orthodox will appreciate that the filioque in the Creed was covered in whiteout and the [KNEEL] directions were crossed out in black pen! There was no filioque and no kneeling.

(modified to correct: LEAVENED bread, not unleavened bread)
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« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2006, 05:10:41 PM »

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the filioque in the Creed was covered in whiteout


I assume this was an English text. Was the Greek text next to it? If so was the Filioque present there too?
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« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2006, 05:18:05 PM »

Yes, it was, and it was also whited out. It wasn't Greek, by the way. It's a Ruthenian parish. I think it was Church Slavonic.
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« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2006, 07:35:53 PM »

SS. Cyril and Methodius Church in Cary (been there) is not only a conservative Catholic magnet for the Raleigh area but a showplace among the Ruthenians for unlatinised practice. Fr Rick Rohrer is one of the high-church minority of Byzantine Catholics - trained in Rome, no latinisations. That partly explains the white-outs and crossings-out in the books. That and Rome is making the Ruthenian bishops do that. If they had their way those bishops and the ethnic rank and file wouldn't bother and probably would latinise and modernise even more than they have done.

I've been told that the monstrance-using Maronite Monks of that website are not Lebanese but refugee conservative ex-Roman Riters. That said as I wrote earlier the Maronites have lost much of their tradition and are very latinised.
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« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2006, 08:53:55 PM »

Oh yeah. Because adoring our Lord in the Eucharist is weird just because its in a western monstrance. Wink

In an Eastern context it is weird.  In the Eastern Tradition, the only time the consecrated bread and wine are adored in any liturgical (or aliturgical,for that matter) setting is right after the consecration in the Divine Liturgy, or during the Great Entrance at the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts.  For an Easterner, the gifts are really there for one thing, and that is to be eaten.
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« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2006, 09:10:57 PM »

In an Eastern context it is weird.  In the Eastern Tradition, the only time the consecrated bread and wine are adored in any liturgical (or aliturgical,for that matter) setting is right after the consecration in the Divine Liturgy, or during the Great Entrance at the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts.  For an Easterner, the gifts are really there for one thing, and that is to be eaten.
I understand that. But my point is that such an attitude is problematic. Its ok for us to share traditions with one another if they enrich our experience of our Lord Jesus Christ. I certainly believe that Eucharistic Adoration is one of those things that all sui juri Churches, regardless of their particular traditions, should take part in.
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« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2006, 09:26:16 PM »

The Eastern churches retain the early church's emphasis on the Sacrament being eaten and drunk without devotions to it outside the service. They believe in the complete presence of Christ in it. But among them there were no challenges to/denials of that belief like in the mediæval West (before Protestantism!) so they didn't need to develop devotions to countact them.

Its ok for us to share traditions with one another if they enrich our experience of our Lord Jesus Christ. I certainly believe that Eucharistic Adoration is one of those things that all sui juri Churches, regardless of their particular traditions, should take part in.

That's not what Rome teaches. Thou shalt not mix rites in church.
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« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2006, 10:20:37 AM »

The reason I say this is, judge not, lest you be judged.  Smug gloating they we Orthodox are better than those heathen Catholics (while we have plenty of our own internal problems) just doesn't sit well with me.  But as long as we keep praying our thanks to the Lord for not making us like those publicans Catholics...

My attempt was actually to show where I think there is a flaw in what Papist was saying.  I did sound judgmental though.

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Forth time is the charm, none of the above.

I'm not sure why I even brought that up.  My apologies.
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« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2007, 01:57:32 AM »

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But among them there were no challenges to/denials of that belief like in the mediæval West (before Protestantism!) so they didn't need to develop devotions to countact them.

The same argument could be made, however, against the prayer of the Holy Rosary; the Rosary being given (according to pious tradition) to S. Dominic as a means to counteract the Catharist heresy in Southern France, by the same argument you employ in discouraging the Eastern observance of extra-liturgical Eucharistic Adoration, one might make a case against using the Rosary in contexts unrelated to the Cathar heresy.  But I think we would all say that the Rosary is a heaven-inspired gift for the sanctification of souls, whether the souls sanctified be those of warriors like S. Dominic or of simple pious folk like Bl. Jacinta of Fatima.  By the same token, Eucharistic Adoration, while taking its rise in the spite of heresy, has continued to provide spiritual nourishment for souls unconcerned with the heresy whence the practice took its rise. 

Quote
Thou shalt not mix rites in church.

Has Rome specifically condemned the observance within Eastern Churches of public devotions Western in origin?  It's one thing to Latinise  the Divine Liturgy itself (which God forbid - nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter) - but is one to go so far as to discourage Eastern Catholics from praying the Rosary together in Church?  The Rosary is western in origin, but is a universal devotion.  It see not why the same could not be said of Eucharistic Adoration.
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« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2007, 10:38:27 AM »

"Has Rome specifically condemned the observance within Eastern Churches of public devotions Western in origin?" 

Yes.

Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches

18. Liturgical reform and renewal 

The first requirement of every Eastern liturgical renewal, as is also the case for liturgical reform in the West, is that of rediscovering full fidelity to their own liturgical traditions, benefiting from their riches and eliminating that which has altered their authenticity. Such heedfulness is not subordinate to but precedes so-called updating. Although a delicate task that must be executed with care so as not to disturb souls, it must be coherently and constantly pursued if the Eastern Catholic Churches want to remain faithful to the mandate received. It is once again John Paul II who declares: "If, therefore, you must trim extraneous forms and developments, deriving from various influences that come from liturgical and paraliturgical traditions foreign to your tradition, it is possible that, so doing, you will have to also correct some popular habits."[24] 
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« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2007, 10:59:59 AM »

"The Rosary being given (according to pious tradition) to S. Dominic...  But I think we would all say that the Rosary is a heaven-inspired gift for the sanctification of souls"

And the Franciscan Rosary is heaven given and the Servite Rosary is heaven given, etc. funny how every order claims its rosary, chaplet or scapular is heaven given.  In truth the Rosary was simply the illiterates way of participating in the Divine Office, substituting originally 150 Our Fathers for the 150 Psalms. Later Hail Marys displaced most of the Our Fathers.


Eastern Catholics have their own Marian devotions and Eucharistic practices.  The Eucharist does not need to be exposed or processed to be adored.  One could in fact see in the Eastern practice of longer fasting and more intense preparation (canons and prepartory prayers) before receiving the Eucharist as the ultimate Eucharisitc devotion, for ultimately the Eucharist is for consuming not beholding.

As for the Rosary it is a fine private devotion, but as a public practice it cannot be allowed to displace the Divine Office or Eastern Marian devotions like the Akathist and Paraclisis.  If one wants to do a public Marian devotion before Liturgy it should be the Akathist.

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« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2007, 04:29:20 AM »

"At some point, as a Catholic Monsignor noted in the commentary on EWTN during the Pope's visit to Constantinople, the possibility of reconciliation will force them to decide."

The good Monsignor is ignorant of history then.  Take for example ACROD.  The EP was in no rush to force them to de-Latinize and they still retain some.  They just buried a "monsignor" of their own a few weeks back.  In the end if the people and priests are resistant to change then it is very likley things will remain the same. 

It is a PROVEN fact that the American Carpatho-Russian Diocese has made major changes since the 1980's. 
What things Father Deacon will remain the same?  Please explain?  Give examples.

If things remained the same, they'd still have first communion, paraklesis instead of Presanctified, lack of icon screens in many churches, and on and on. 
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« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2007, 04:33:35 AM »

"The Rosary being given (according to pious tradition) to S. Dominic...  But I think we would all say that the Rosary is a heaven-inspired gift for the sanctification of souls"

And the Franciscan Rosary is heaven given and the Servite Rosary is heaven given, etc. funny how every order claims its rosary, chaplet or scapular is heaven given.  In truth the Rosary was simply the illiterates way of participating in the Divine Office, substituting originally 150 Our Fathers for the 150 Psalms. Later Hail Marys displaced most of the Our Fathers.


Eastern Catholics have their own Marian devotions and Eucharistic practices.  The Eucharist does not need to be exposed or processed to be adored.  One could in fact see in the Eastern practice of longer fasting and more intense preparation (canons and prepartory prayers) before receiving the Eucharist as the ultimate Eucharisitc devotion, for ultimately the Eucharist is for consuming not beholding.

As for the Rosary it is a fine private devotion, but as a public practice it cannot be allowed to displace the Divine Office or Eastern Marian devotions like the Akathist and Paraclisis.  If one wants to do a public Marian devotion before Liturgy it should be the Akathist.

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If there is to be devotions before Liturgy it should be Matins, or at least the hours.  The issue of snatching Rosaries out of the ladies hands is thus, if you are going to do so, replace it with something.  I know a parish where the priest forbade the rosary (this is a Greek Catholic parish) from being said before Liturgy,  he didn't replace it with say the hours or Matins... and twenty years after the event the ladies are still not pleased.  If you are going to take something that is fruitful away, replace it with something fruitful.   Many of the ladies that still say the rosaries were taught in the Catholic schools years ago, it is quickly fading out, but we should fill the gap with Matins, or the hours before Liturgy.  This applies to Byzantine Catholics as well,  especially with since they claim to be returning to their eastern roots.
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« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2007, 04:40:47 AM »

Because there were so many sui juris Churches during the first century.

Back this opinion up, or are we to believe that the pre-1970 missal (yes, the 1970 Roman Missal, not the wretched term "novus ordo" ) was the liturgy during the first century?
Nevermind the readings and lessons followed by an agape meal, I guess we are to believe that a liturgy reformed several times but starting with the local council of Trent was the only liturgy since after Pentecost and all other forms are just inferior and spawned out of barbaric practices.   Latin wasn't even the vox populi in the Roman Empire until the late 2nd Century.... it was.......................................................   Kloiné Greek.
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« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2007, 04:44:23 AM »

For the common faithful, the most noticeable difference would be the Greek Catholic's church use of "Sfintul SPIRIT" (a late XIX-th century loan word) vs. the Orthodox "Sfintul Duh" of Slavic origin, much older and wider used.
The truth is that there were no linguistical differences between the two sister churches prior to the end of the XIX-th century. By that time however, some Greek Catholic hierarchs began purging the liturgical Romanian of as many Slavonic words as possible, replacing them with Latin borrowings or Romanian creations of their own.


Actually, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church has just recently released a new translation of the Liturgy that in fact has linguistical differences (in English).  www.byzcath.com, check forum number 9.
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« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2007, 04:46:09 AM »

"Latin Rite" parishes ? Please someone direct me to one...

james

Techincally a church called "Roman Catholic" is in fact a Latin Rite parish.  So, there are what, 20,000 Latin Rite parishes in the USA.  Even the local RC cathedral is listed under Latin Rite in the yellow pages here.
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« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2007, 04:50:15 AM »

Yes, you've made this clear in your other posts.  I think you're making an inorrect distinction. 

So long as a guitar mass (or the infamous Halloween mass which was circulating recently) with lay females handing out communion, etc. is done under the authority of a bishop who is in communion with Rome; you would have to say that "style" of worship doesn't take away or invalidate the theological fullness you share with them.  Even if you personally don't care for their worship "style".

That is where the post Vatican II church is at.  It is not about fullness, it's about the lowest common denominator.

Yes, guitars or not, if the priest is under his bishop in the Roman Catholic church they would be vaild Roman Catholic sacraments.   Regardless, proclaiming otherwise (no matter what you think personally about the style) would fall under a sort of Donatism.   
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« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2007, 04:53:31 AM »

Oh yeah. Because adoring our Lord in the Eucharist is weird just because its in a western monstrance. Wink

Do you know where the Benediction/Adoration service started?  It's a neat history lesson.  Believe it or not, until recently some of the Orthodox jurisdictions practiced adoration (like maybe 25 years ago), but it was a carry over from the Greek Catholics, a latinization.
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« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2007, 04:59:11 AM »

Well, I went to my first Byzantine Catholic liturgy today. Much like the Greek Orthodox liturgies I sometimes attended several years ago, except it was (blessedly) in English!

A baby was baptized and chrismated---it was touching to see how not only her mother and grandmother wept, but her father and grandfather as well. At the end of the liturgy, the priest held the baby in front of the iconostasis for everyone to walk up and kiss her feet.

Communion was special for me, since I never received it (of course) at the Orthodox liturgies I attended. I had my first taste of the Body and Blood of Christ under the accidents of leavened bread soaked in wine---the priest was a real pro at getting the spoon in and out of our mouths without any unnecessary contact.

My arm got tired from so much crossing---just watch, when I attend mass at my regular parish tomorrow, I'll be crossing myself right to left!

I stumbled over the constant Byzantine chant in the beginning, but by the latter stages of the liturgy, I was chanting along well enough not to be a distraction.

I enjoyed looking at the Divine Liturgy books. They were 20 years old. I'm sure you Orthodox will appreciate that the filioque in the Creed was covered in whiteout and the [KNEEL] directions were crossed out in black pen! There was no filioque and no kneeling.

(modified to correct: LEAVENED bread, not unleavened bread)


FYI, the chant style wasn't Byzantine, it was called Prostopinije, or Carpatho-Plain chant, or translated, Straight singing.  Don't worry those "old" pew books are getting thrown out the window with a new version.
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« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2007, 05:01:46 AM »



I assume this was an English text. Was the Greek text next to it? If so was the Filioque present there too?

If it was the translation by Monsignor Lekulvic (may have spelled that wrong), aka the Red pew book, it would have had Slavonic in the Slovak alphabet on one side and the English on the other. 
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« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2007, 05:03:29 AM »

In an Eastern context it is weird.  In the Eastern Tradition, the only time the consecrated bread and wine are adored in any liturgical (or aliturgical,for that matter) setting is right after the consecration in the Divine Liturgy, or during the Great Entrance at the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts.  For an Easterner, the gifts are really there for one thing, and that is to be eaten.

It isn't "weird" it just isn't a practice we use in our liturgical services.
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« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2007, 05:20:22 AM »

I understand that. But my point is that such an attitude is problematic. Its ok for us to share traditions with one another if they enrich our experience of our Lord Jesus Christ. I certainly believe that Eucharistic Adoration is one of those things that all sui juri Churches, regardless of their particular traditions, should take part in.
Why?  The Catholic Churches of the Byzantine Rite are not places for the Latins to come in and "feel good" because the priest faces east and uses incense.  They reflect a totally different small tradition and our people have been put through a lot by the Latins since the 1500-1600's.  The development of Euhcaristic Adoration was a direct result of the local Roman Council of Lyons, to make the new declaration of transubstation "Lex Orandi Lex Credendi."   Before the council of Lyons, the priest only had one elevation of the Holy Gifts ( like the Orthodox/?Byzantine Catholics).  In the local council of Lyons, it was changed to the two elevations still present in the 1970 Roman Catholic missal.  That being the elevation of the Blood and a seperate elevation of the Body, with the third elevation consisting of both Species.  It developed into a practise to go from church to church to witness the elevation, even in England with the people shouting for the priest to hold the Eucharist higher.
Note, the fact that it is said that the reason the altar boys hold the back of the priests vestments when he is facing East in the Latin church is because it is said that the heavy vestments were a burden in the middle ages because the priest would hold the Eucharist up for extended periods of time so the faithful could adore the Eucharist (the highlight of the Mass which was said mostly quietly by the Priest, it let the faithful know what was happening and since frequent reception of Communion in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches wasn't prevelant until quite recently).  People had come to seperate themselves from partaking in Communion and participating in adoration, and the public service of the specific practice of Eucharistic Adoration was instituted to bolster the proclamations of the local Council of Lyons.
Anyway, so exactly then why should we adopt Eucharistic Adoration?   
When we celebratea Liturgical Service  ( Greek, Liturgica, work of the people) which includes Matins, Vespers, Compline, Akathists, Paraklesis, Parastas, Panachidas, Lityas, Divine Liturgy... they are communal celebrations, not time for private devotions.  Private devotions are something you do on your own time, at home, in preperation for the communal Liturgical services. 
So having a community come together and privately praying during a Eucharistic Adoration goes against the grain of the Eastern praxis, not just the Eastern practice but the very definition of Liturgy (liturgica, work of the people, and that term isn't limited to the most special work of the people, the Divine Liturgy, in Roman terms, the Mass). 
There is nothing wrong with private Eucharistic Adoration, going into church and conversing with Jesus is a beautiful thing.
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« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2007, 08:50:02 AM »

"It is a PROVEN fact that the American Carpatho-Russian Diocese has made major changes since the 1980's.  What things Father Deacon will remain the same?  Please explain?  Give examples.  If things remained the same, they'd still have first communion, paraklesis instead of Presanctified, lack of icon screens in many churches, and on and on."

That ACROD has made much progress to restoring Eastern tradition is without question.  But some parishes still have First Communion, a few parishes are still without Icon screens, some priests still style themselves monsignor, the rosary is still popular, etc. 

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« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2007, 12:21:06 PM »

Quote
paraklesis instead of Presanctified,
Did the Paraklesis completely replace the Liturgy of the Presanctified?
Or was it that the Liturgy was celebrated in the morning and the Paraklesis in the evening of the Wednesdays and Fridays of Lent?
If so, that's the Transylvanian practice also:Presanctified in the morning, Paraklesis on Wednesday evenings and the Akhathist to our Lord IC XC on Friday evenings.
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« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2007, 05:41:02 PM »

Deacon Lance
There is one priest that is a monsignor in the ACROD, his name is Monsignor Dutko, he's 90 years old.  His son is the pastor of St. Michaels Orthodox Church in Binghamton, NY.  Monsignor Dutko lives in Binghamton as well.  The term Protopresbyter is the term used today.

There is no real first communion anymore in the ACROD.  Some parishes still call the first confession celebration first communion, but there is no first communion. 
A few parishes do not have icon screens (four parishes I believe), most likely more of a moneterial issue.
The rosary isn't that popular, even in the cathedral only a few ladies are reciting it well before liturgy, a practice that is falling out of vogue, remember it is a byproduct of the Catholic Schools and the fact that many people were once Byzantine Catholics.  In fact it is about only 4-5 ladies reciting the rosary.

It was a Paraklesis to the Holy Cross and it took the entire place of the Liturgy of the Presanctified.  Remember, the ACROD was started by people that left the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church to return to Orthodoxy and many of the latinizations were carried over with the first generation, it was what they knew and it was what they practiced in the old country (or if they were born in the USA, their parents would have been from the old country).





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« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2007, 06:02:49 PM »

Deacon Lance
There is one priest that is a monsignor in the ACROD, his name is Monsignor Dutko, he's 90 years old.  His son is the pastor of St. Michaels Orthodox Church in Binghamton, NY.  Monsignor Dutko lives in Binghamton as well.  The term Protopresbyter is the term used today.

There is no real first communion anymore in the ACROD.  Some parishes still call the first confession celebration first communion, but there is no first communion. 
A few parishes do not have icon screens (four parishes I believe), most likely more of a moneterial issue.
The rosary isn't that popular, even in the cathedral only a few ladies are reciting it well before liturgy, a practice that is falling out of vogue, remember it is a byproduct of the Catholic Schools and the fact that many people were once Byzantine Catholics.  In fact it is about only 4-5 ladies reciting the rosary.

It was a Paraklesis to the Holy Cross and it took the entire place of the Liturgy of the Presanctified.  Remember, the ACROD was started by people that left the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church to return to Orthodoxy and many of the latinizations were carried over with the first generation, it was what they knew and it was what they practiced in the old country (or if they were born in the USA, their parents would have been from the old country).

The history of ACROD and its de-latinisation is very interesting indeed.  I wonder if someone like Welkodox could tell us more about it.
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« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2007, 06:35:39 PM »

It was a Paraklesis to the Holy Cross and it took the entire place of the Liturgy of the Presanctified.
I think you mean Akathist to the Holy Cross.  The Paraklis is a service to the Virgin Mary.
Until a little over 35 years ago, few, if any Orthodox Churches in the U.S. had evening Presanctified Liturgies.  Until we went to evening Presanctified Liturgies in my parish (OCA) - also about 35 years ago - we would sing the Paraklis on Wednesday evenings and an Akathist on Friday evenings.  There are still Orthodox jurisdictions in this country that only celebrate the Presanctified Liturgy in the morning.  Morning Presanctified Liturgies and Akathist and Paraklis in the evenings during Lent is not a "latinization" and certainly not exclusively a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic tradition.
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« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2007, 10:01:00 PM »

The history of ACROD and its de-latinisation is very interesting indeed.  I wonder if someone like Welkodox could tell us more about it.

"username" actually going by what I've read so far strikes me as a fairly knowledgeable source in this matter.

I think one of the interesting things about the ACROD is that while they were seeking to get away from the forced Latinizations of the Takach era (primarily mandatory clerical celibacy), they were also not really rejecting their own past or traditions.  Some of which of course had been influenced by contact with the western church.  Unlike Rusyns who had come back to Orthodoxy earlier, they were also not interested in trading Latinization for Russification.  So I think for the most part they really didn't want or feel like the needed to go about changing themselves.  I think over time the ACROD has and will change in more subtle ways as it has aligned itself back with Orthodoxy.  The BCC went on a different trajectory and I think has shown the influence of being under the Roman church.

My parish has some practices and visual features that one would describe as Latinizations, though you can find these same things in churches of other jurisdictions.  This was brought home to me in a visit to a GOA parish not too long ago.  Regarding what's being talked about in this thread, I have never run across anyone who uses the Rosary as a private devotion.  We have first confession and some of the practices associated with it would be similar to what would surround a first communion.  We have presanctified liturgy during the evening during Lent.
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« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2007, 10:10:27 PM »

"username" actually going by what I've read so far strikes me as a fairly knowledgeable source in this matter.

Yes, indeed.  I didn't realise that username was ACROD.  Thanks for your insight here.
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« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2007, 10:30:14 PM »

Not only is he ACROD, he's ex-Byzantine Catholic himself. AND he LOVES to talk about it all the time. So yea, you can listen to him:)
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« Reply #84 on: January 30, 2007, 11:07:04 PM »

Yes, indeed.  I didn't realise that username was ACROD.  Thanks for your insight here.

Yup.  If you're really interested in the history of the diocese I would suggest the book "Good Victory" written by Fr. Lawrence Barriger.   He gives background on who people viewed the Union of Uzhorod, the different factions of clergy that existed in the old country and what they brought here (it played in to the split), and of course the history of the formation of the diocese in the 20's and 30's.
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« Reply #85 on: January 30, 2007, 11:46:36 PM »

Thank you Choirfiend and Weldox!

Now, not all of our parishes are strictly Rusyn.  We have a fair number of parishes that came in through the Russian traditions because of calender issues.  The last parish to do so was St. Michael's in St. Clair, PA in 1984.  To a degree they have some Russian practices.
But the main feature is the preservation of Prostopinije, our way of singing.  Even in the mission parishes that compromise several ethnic groups use some prostopinije, ie, Ressurectional tones for the Troparia, Kondak, Prokeminon, Irmos.  Vespers is always done with our congregational singing.
When the Rusyns left the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church under Takach there was ALOT of pressure to align themselves under the Russians.  Some 40 years earlier many Rusyns rejoined Orthodoxy under the Russians and lost many of their small traditions.  At the time of the split that ended up being the ACROD the faithful wanted to preserve our small traditions and customs.
Weldox is correct in saying at first the faithful weren't exactly looking to join the Ecumenical Patrarich.   
Ea Semper in what, 1890 ( a papal declaration) stated that clergy in the USA had to receive Holy Orders as celibates.  It wasn't enforced too much until the 1929 papal declaration called Cum Data Fuerit.  It was enforced via Bishop Takach in the Ruthenian Metropolia.  The intent of the original "union" (which was a political move and the people weren't involved) claimed to allow the Rusyns to maintain their Byzantine Rite.  This included married men being ordained to Holy Orders.  You could say the celibacy issue was icing on the cake for a people who had not had a voice or say for hundreds of years. 
What happened was eventually Metropolitan Orestes Chornok of thrice Blessed Memory re-aligned our people with the Ecumenical Patriarchate (as that was who the Carpathian people were a part of post-Catholic "union").   
It is noteworthy to say that for these folks that formed the ACROD the church and the small traditions were a sort of identity. 
Also there are many small traditions that exist in the ACROD that pre-date Nikonian reforms, unique to the Carpathian Mountains.
One example is having specific dismissals, they are tailored to the day.  There is a whole laundry list of specific small traditions, most are rubrical in nature.  Another one that comes to mind is there are only a few days Red is worn and blue adorns the Church throughout the entire Annuciation period, then we switch back to Gold for a few days and then back to Blue.  I don't know if that is pre-Nikonian, but it is one of our customs.  Mirovanije is another custom.
Sorry to be long winded, I just love sharing the knowledge.

Also, the second book that corresponds to 'Good Victory' is 'Glory to Jesus Christ'  it also is written by Father Barriger.
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« Reply #86 on: January 30, 2007, 11:51:39 PM »

Quote
Mirovanije is another custom.
You share this with the Romanians, at least.
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« Reply #87 on: January 30, 2007, 11:58:13 PM »

There are/were Rusyns in Romania!  Indeed very awesome that you have Mirovanije.  Mirovanije is only to be performed in our custom on the 12 major feasts of the calender.
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« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2007, 12:20:46 AM »

Also there are many small traditions that exist in the ACROD that pre-date Nikonian reforms, unique to the Carpathian Mountains.
One example is having specific dismissals, they are tailored to the day.  There is a whole laundry list of specific small traditions, most are rubrical in nature.  Another one that comes to mind is there are only a few days Red is worn and blue adorns the Church throughout the entire Annuciation period, then we switch back to Gold for a few days and then back to Blue.  I don't know if that is pre-Nikonian, but it is one of our customs.

Many of these traditions come from the 13th and 14th century practices in Constantinople. When the empire was collapsing and Constantinople was on the verge of fall many people fled to the Carpathian mountains and integrated themselves with the local population. The people of Constantinople looked at the people who lived in the Carpathian region to be those of Rus.
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« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2007, 12:58:02 AM »

Quote
Mirovanije is only to be performed in our custom on the 12 major feasts of the calender.
We do exactly the same: at the Royal Feasts only.
Quote
There are/were Rusyns in Romania!
There are some in Maramures. We call them "rusnaci".
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« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2007, 01:27:01 AM »

Not only is he ACROD, he's ex-Byzantine Catholic himself. AND he LOVES to talk about it all the time. So yea, you can listen to him:)

Thanks.  I think I see what you mean.   Smiley
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« Reply #91 on: February 01, 2007, 09:17:15 PM »

Username,

Please do not misunderstand, I was not putting ACROD down.  As you know the Pittsburgh Metropolia still has monsignori, first solemn Communions even though infants are now communed, screen-less churches, etc.  While most parishes have Presanctified, a few still have Stations.  The Rosary is pretty much as non-existant as in Latin Churches, again a few parishes and even there it is like your cathedral 4 or 5 devotees.

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« Reply #92 on: February 01, 2007, 09:53:58 PM »

Deacon Lance,
Do any Byzantine Catholic churches do Supplicatsia anymore?
CR
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« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2007, 01:46:21 AM »

CR,

I am sure there are probably one or two if you look.  We don't even do it at Uniontown Pilgrimage anymore, although we still do the Moleben to Christ the Lover of Mankind.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #94 on: March 28, 2010, 07:42:18 PM »


Excellent answer. Its funny, though, now in their attempt to reconnect with their Eastern patrimony, doctrinally, they have moved further away from
Rome than any other Eastern Church.

How so?
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주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
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« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2010, 11:51:59 AM »

Welkodox,

True enough, that is if the realize we exist at all. And also sadly true some ECs consider themselves Byzantine Rite Roman Catholics and think and act accordingly.

Fr. Deacon Lance


That is why I for one would like to see EC websites include Orthodox websites as well in their links section. Even the major sites like the UGCC of Philadelphia's website. Rather than just include Byzantine Catholic and Roman Catholic links. There is so much Byzantine Catholics can learn about their tradition from Orthodox websites as well. They can learn more about the Byzantine traditions from an Orthodox website vs a Roman Catholic website. Not to say that both should not be included.
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"We knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth, for surely there is no such splendor or beauty anywhere on earth." The Divine Liturgy at Hagia Sophia.
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« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2010, 03:34:25 PM »

Welkodox,

True enough, that is if the realize we exist at all. And also sadly true some ECs consider themselves Byzantine Rite Roman Catholics and think and act accordingly.

Fr. Deacon Lance


That is why I for one would like to see EC websites include Orthodox websites as well in their links section. Even the major sites like the UGCC of Philadelphia's website. Rather than just include Byzantine Catholic and Roman Catholic links. There is so much Byzantine Catholics can learn about their tradition from Orthodox websites as well. They can learn more about the Byzantine traditions from an Orthodox website vs a Roman Catholic website. Not to say that both should not be included.

That is an interesting perspective, considering that some of the things on Eastern Orthodox websites would be considered erroneous from a Catholic perspective.
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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