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Author Topic: Byzantine Catholic liturgies- question  (Read 15321 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 28, 2004, 10:21:03 PM »

  Were there any small changes in Eastern Catholic liturgies following the Vatican II Council?
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2004, 11:03:23 PM »

Generally after Vatican II, the Byzantine Catholic liturgies began to look more like their Orthodox counterparts.

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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2006, 04:18:30 PM »

I saw one time the Maronite mass, where priest celebrated face to people.
Why?
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2006, 04:26:51 PM »

Generally after Vatican II, the Byzantine Catholic liturgies began to look more like their Orthodox counterparts.

Generally speaking, I believe that's true.  Especially for the Melkites.  The Ruthenians are moving the other direction though.
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2006, 04:41:14 PM »

Quote
Generally after Vatican II, the Byzantine Catholic liturgies began to look more like their Orthodox counterparts.
Not in Romania, after 1990, though.
The Romanian Greek-Catholic liturgy as broadcasted every Sunday by the Vatican Radio station is greatly abridged, skipping litanies, antiphons etc.
I can't remember exactly whether this was the case before 1989, when Radio Free Europe would broadcast  a Greek Catholic Liturgy every Sunday at 8 AM, which, even though I was just a little kid, I used to listen to, along with my grand-parents.
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 06:06:19 PM »

What everybody else said.

I've seen a Maronite Liturgy and that's what they did.

To try to answer Andrzej's question the Maronites IIRC began as a kind of vagante offshoot of the Syrian Oriental Orthodox church with a variant of that rite. Isolated in the Lebanon (by the rise of Islam for one thing?) they were Monothelites for a while (for a time that theology was favoured in the Byzantine Empire) until the Crusaders discovered them in the Middle Ages and they officially went under Rome (they say they never officially broke with Rome which is probably true). But the Western Catholics didn't really know what to do with them and so the Maronites became extremely latinised, essentially losing their own tradition except for the text and the language. With Vatican II they simply went from mimicking the Tridentine Mass as had been their custom to mimicking the Novus Ordo, hence 'facing the people', lay lectors of both sexes reading from lecterns facing the congregation and so on.
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2006, 10:14:55 AM »

What everybody else said.

I've seen a Maronite Liturgy and that's what they did.

To try to answer Andrzej's question the Maronites IIRC began as a kind of vagante offshoot of the Syrian Oriental Orthodox church with a variant of that rite. Isolated in the Lebanon (by the rise of Islam for one thing?) they were Monothelites for a while (for a time that theology was favoured in the Byzantine Empire) until the Crusaders discovered them in the Middle Ages and they officially went under Rome (they say they never officially broke with Rome which is probably true). But the Western Catholics didn't really know what to do with them and so the Maronites became extremely latinised, essentially losing their own tradition except for the text and the language. With Vatican II they simply went from mimicking the Tridentine Mass as had been their custom to mimicking the Novus Ordo, hence 'facing the people', lay lectors of both sexes reading from lecterns facing the congregation and so on.
Excellent answer. Its funny, though, now in their attempt to reconnect with their Eastern patrimony, doctrinally, they have moved further away from
Rome than any other Eastern Church. It will be interesting to see how the Holy See resolves this matter.
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2006, 11:06:01 AM »

The whole history of liturgical ferment and change within the churches that came in to union with Rome in the Counter-Reformation era is quite interesting.  Initially it was believed on the part of the bishops and priests who came over that they would retain what they had as it was, they were just switching chains of command per se.  Many in the Latin Church at the time had different ideas, and viewed the acceptance of Byzantine liturgical rites as a provisional step on the road to full incorporation in to the Roman Catholic Church.  There were subtle ways to encourage that, and more overt ones such as making Uniate bishops (which they were referred to at the time, though the term is no longer used) subsidiaries of Latin bishoprics or changes and deletions such as happened with the Synod of Zamosc.  In the whole process these churches came to engage in the process of self Latinization.

In the end the Byzantine heritage Eastern Catholic churches have become hybrid churches.  In my experience you will recognize this in various ways if you’re coming from an Orthodox Church.  This is due not only to past influences from the Latin Church, but is part of an ongoing process, even in the post Vatican II era.
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2006, 11:48:21 AM »

Youngfogey,

The Maronites were never Monothelites, they taught the human will never conflicted with the divine will, so while there were two wills according to nature the two functioned as one in operation.  Because of this some Latins, Melkites, and Orthodox love to accuse of Monothelitism, but it doesn't stick.  It doesn't make sense that they would adopt Monothelitism was an attempt at compromise between Constantinople and Antioch, neither of whom the Maronites were fond of. The Maronites defended Chalcedon against the Miaphysites in Antioch, who in turn persecuted them  but also suffered persecution from the Emperors because they were outside their control.

As to their Liturgy since Vatican II, they have restored much of the traditional practice, if at a slower pace than the Byzantines.  The Liturgy has been greatly restored, the only visible Latinizations remaining being the placement of the Creed and the Filioque.  They have adopted some post-Vatican II Latin developments like facing the people, but in general they have shed more than they adopted.

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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 01:07:15 PM »

Common abbreviations one will find in Byzantine Catholic Liturgies:

Little Litanies are not taken.
Antiphons are one verse.
Third Antiphon is not taken among Ruthenians, Second is not taken among Ukrainians.
Litanies of Catechumens and Faithful are not taken.
Litany of Supplication is not taken after Great Entrance.
Litany of Supplication is not taken before Our Father
Litany of Thanksgiving is not taken
(in all cases of Litanies not taken priest recites accompanying prayer quietly)
Incense omitted at weekday Liturgies.
Procession to and Blessing of the Apsidal Throne omitted in weekday Liturgies

Now those used to the Russian Recension will look at our books and see other things absent but this is not due to Latinization or abbreviation but to the fact that the Ruthenian Recension is older than the Russian and does not contain all the accretions the Russian Recension has.  For instance there is no Lenten Troparia of the Third Hour at the Epiklesis.  There are no prayers for the deacon when placing the Holy Body or Commeration particles into the Chalice. A couple other small things that would only be noticed by clergy.

The Synod of Zamosc:
1)Forbade use of the sponge
2)Forbade use of zeon
3)Introduced the Filioque
4)Forbade infant Communion

The first three wer pretty well adhered too, infant Communion survived, although First Holy Communions were practiced.

At no time were Greek Catholic bishops auxillaries to Latin ones.  The Latin Bishop of Eger tried to assert such over the Bishop of Mukachevo, but to no avail.  In the Austrian-Hungarian Empire the Greek Catholic Bishops did have Latin Metropolitans, but they really had no power.


Some Greek Catholic Churches could not be distinguished from the Orthodox, others you can definately tell they are Catholic because of lack of Iconostasis or presence of Sacred Heart images, etc.

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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 01:33:27 PM »

Fr. Deacon Lance, indeed someone coming from a background with a liturgy based on the Nikonian reforms would notice differences in a liturgy based on the Ruthenian recension.  I think it's important as well to keep in mind the liturgy is just part of the overall framework of services.  I think many Orthodox Christians would notice in the Byzantine heritage Eastern Catholic churches something I would term the "mass only mentality" adopted from the Latin Church.  Meaning if it's not a mass or liturgy, it won't be served. 

What that translates in to is nobody serving vespers, matins or various other services throughout the festal cycles that many if not most Orthodox Christians would consider fairly standard.  The anticipated or saturday vigil liturgy (instead of vespers) is another example.  Orthodox Christians would also most likely notice the lack of a proskomedia, the use of pre cut particles and the absence of antidoron.  A lot of stuff is missing, and it is clear it is not seeking the recovery of traditions is not always supported by the hierarchy.  The archeparchial cathedral of the UGCC, really the most prominent UCGG church in the country, does not hold the services I mentioned.  The Ruthenian Church, as I know you are well aware, is preparing major changes to its liturgy that a good many people are predicting will move it further away from its Orthodox siblings.

So I think keeping the bigger picture in mind is important, the liturgy is an important component of the liturgical life of the church, but not the only one.

Quote
Some Greek Catholic Churches could not be distinguished from the Orthodox, others you can definately tell they are Catholic because of lack of Iconostasis or presence of Sacred Heart images, etc.

A very few have done a very good job of recovering their authentic heritage and I have been in one.  I get the feeling the majority don't wish to do so though, and that many Eastern Catholics continue to move further in to the orbit of Roman Catholicism.  When I have been to EC churches, despite many of the similarities, I am always struck by how different it feels.  It can be visual queus such as the ones you mentioned, but it is also a combination of factors that is hard to exactly pinpoint.  It just feels different. I guess I can only say it feels Catholic, not Orthodox.

young fogey had some interesting insights about this topic on his blog.

http://sergesblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/in-fluffya-ukrainian-beacon-shines_19.html
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2006, 01:57:24 PM »

Quote
Some Greek Catholic Churches could not be distinguished from the Orthodox, others you can definately tell they are Catholic because of lack of Iconostasis or presence of Sacred Heart images, etc.

When I was in Timisoara this summer, I was surprised at how immediate the difference was between Orthodox and Greek Catholic parishes.  I never had the chance to attend liturgy at a Catholic parish, but the presence of pews, a ton of Latin devotional items and such made them look very Catholic.  Since this was in a city with a fair amount of Latin Catholics, such blurring of ritual lines makes sense.  But, do the more isolated and rural Greek Catholic parishes do this as well? 
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2006, 02:10:50 PM »

I think that in Ukraine, Slovakia and Romania, the persecution of the Greek Catholics by the Communists, with which the Orthodox collaborated, has signifigantly (and unwittingly) contributed to the Greek Catholics in these areas wishing to distinguish themselves from the Orthodox. For example, a priest from Slovakia who was visitng my parish was diturbed to see we used a three bar cross with slanting bottom, I did not understand his objection till he informed that Greek Catholics in Slovakia now use a three bar cross with straight bottom to distinguish themselvesfrom the Orthodox.  Pews, Rosaries, Sacred Hearts, Stations of the Cross, Benediction are seen by some as a badge of honor.  Their attitude is: "Why should we give these up that which we suffered for, in order to imitate those who persecuted and in somes cases still harass us?  De-Latinization is a very complex issue when all factors are added in unfortunately.

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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2006, 02:41:39 PM »

Persecution historically has been a two way street.  The fact is if that's being used as a reason to ignore what the Vatican in the post VII era has been telling EC's, I think they have a serious issue on their hands.  I don't think the EC's can remain static.  Over time they will either become more Orthodox, or more Catholic.  At some point, as a Catholic Monsignor noted in the commentary on EWTN during the Pope's visit to Constantinople, the possibility of reconciliation will force them to decide.  Those churches in his words at that time would go away.
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2006, 02:53:20 PM »

"At some point, as a Catholic Monsignor noted in the commentary on EWTN during the Pope's visit to Constantinople, the possibility of reconciliation will force them to decide."

The good Monsignor is ignorant of history then.  Take for example ACROD.  The EP was in no rush to force them to de-Latinize and they still retain some.  They just buried a "monsignor" of their own a few weeks back.  In the end if the people and priests are resistant to change then it is very likley things will remain the same. 
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2006, 03:14:20 PM »

The good Monsignor is ignorant of history then.

The Monsignor, whose name escapes me right now, was presented as being someone who was very familiar with the Eastern Catholic Churches and I think was in some way affiliated with CNEWA.

Quote
Take for example ACROD.  The EP was in no rush to force them to de-Latinize and they still retain some.  They just buried a "monsignor" of their own a few weeks back.  In the end if the people and priests are resistant to change then it is very likley things will remain the same. 

Believe me, I am well aware of the Latinizations that persist!  Smiley  In time I think they will become less and less prominent, especially as the generation of + Fr. Dolhy (of blessed memory) move to the next stage of their life in the church.  Even with the Latinizations, the leadership from the start obviously expressed the desire to stay true to their Eastern traditions and to willingly return to the Omophorion of an Orthodox bishop.  I do believe that is where the difference lies, and if reconciliation ever becomes a serious possibility, the Byzantine tradition Eastern Catholics will have to make the same decision.  I believe the Melkites have basically already said they see themselves folding back in to the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, so I don't think any of this is just theoretical or a matter of speculation.  I do think the unnamed Monsignor ultimately was correct.
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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2006, 03:49:11 PM »

The whole history of liturgical ferment and change within the churches that came in to union with Rome in the Counter-Reformation era is quite interesting.  Initially it was believed on the part of the bishops and priests who came over that they would retain what they had as it was, they were just switching chains of command per se.  Many in the Latin Church at the time had different ideas, and viewed the acceptance of Byzantine liturgical rites as a provisional step on the road to full incorporation in to the Roman Catholic Church.  There were subtle ways to encourage that, and more overt ones such as making Uniate bishops (which they were referred to at the time, though the term is no longer used) subsidiaries of Latin bishoprics or changes and deletions such as happened with the Synod of Zamosc.  In the whole process these churches came to engage in the process of self Latinization.

In the end the Byzantine heritage Eastern Catholic churches have become hybrid churches.  In my experience you will recognize this in various ways if you’re coming from an Orthodox Church.  This is due not only to past influences from the Latin Church, but is part of an ongoing process, even in the post Vatican II era.

I don't know. I visited a Greek Orthodox Church that was more westernized than my Ruthenian Parish.
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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2006, 04:03:41 PM »

I don't know. I visited a Greek Orthodox Church that was more westernized than my Ruthenian Parish.

Nobody said there aren't individual EC parishes that don't aspire to the fullest, in fact I think we said there are.  So if you parish doesn't have the Rosary, does have Vespers and Matins, does the Proskomedia instead of using pre cuts, has a married priest, doesn't do anticpated liturgies on Saturday's, does provide antidoron, doesn't use female altar servers, etc., etc.  Consider yourself lucky.  I would say prepare yourself for the new translation of the liturgy, in particular what I gather will be the use of inclusive, or gender neutral language.  Also be prepared for the possibility that at some point your priest could get re-assigned, and things could change drastically.  I've heard of it happening in other places.

The point though isn't what happens in an individual parish, it's what the overall picture is.  The overall picture is the Byzantine heritage EC churches are in hybrid status, and most don't aspire to getting back to be on par with Orthodoxy.  Fr. Deacon Lance pointed out that many have absolutely no desire to.
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2006, 04:31:40 PM »

Nobody said there aren't individual EC parishes that don't aspire to the fullest, in fact I think we said there are.  So if you parish doesn't have the Rosary, does have Vespers and Matins, does the Proskomedia instead of using pre cuts, has a married priest, doesn't do anticpated liturgies on Saturday's, does provide antidoron, doesn't use female altar servers, etc., etc.  Consider yourself lucky.  I would say prepare yourself for the new translation of the liturgy, in particular what I gather will be the use of inclusive, or gender neutral language.  Also be prepared for the possibility that at some point your priest could get re-assigned, and things could change drastically.  I've heard of it happening in other places.

The point though isn't what happens in an individual parish, it's what the overall picture is.  The overall picture is the Byzantine heritage EC churches are in hybrid status, and most don't aspire to getting back to be on par with Orthodoxy.  Fr. Deacon Lance pointed out that many have absolutely no desire to.
I don't mind latinization myself. I am actually a latin who attends both a Ruthenian parish and a latin one. In my mind, it is more important that I am Catholic than which particular sui juri Church I belong to. Substance is more important to me than style.
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2006, 04:42:10 PM »

I don't mind latinization myself. I am actually a latin who attends both a Ruthenian parish and a latin one.

Well, there have certainly have been many Latin traditionalists who have sought out Eastern Rite churches as a refuge from the Novus Ordo madness.  Cradle EC's often like to grouse about them.

Quote
In my mind, it is more important that I am Catholic than which particular sui juri Church I belong to. Substance is more important to me than style.

In my mind the liturgical expression of the church is the substance.  It's the living and breathing theology of the church.  Watch how people worship, and you'll see what they believe.

lex orandi, lex credendi
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2006, 04:52:10 PM »

Papist,

"In my mind, it is more important that I am Catholic than which particular sui juri Church I belong to. Substance is more important to me than style."

Then you are deluded and do not have the mind of the Church on this matter  There is no such thing as I am Catholic first, Byzantine 2nd.  It is as ridiculous as saying I am human first, man second.  One can only be human by being male or female.  One can only be Catholic by belonging to a particular Church, which entails all its specific traditions.

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« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2006, 07:58:39 PM »

Papist,

"In my mind, it is more important that I am Catholic than which particular sui juri Church I belong to. Substance is more important to me than style."

Then you are deluded and do not have the mind of the Church on this matter  There is no such thing as I am Catholic first, Byzantine 2nd.  It is as ridiculous as saying I am human first, man second.  One can only be human by being male or female.  One can only be Catholic by belonging to a particular Church, which entails all its specific traditions.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Because there were so many sui juris Churches during the first century.
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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2006, 08:00:33 PM »

Well, there have certainly have been many Latin traditionalists who have sought out Eastern Rite churches as a refuge from the Novus Ordo madness.  Cradle EC's often like to grouse about them.

In my mind the liturgical expression of the church is the substance.  It's the living and breathing theology of the church.  Watch how people worship, and you'll see what they believe.

lex orandi, lex credendi
Lex orandi Lex Credendi. Yes, this is true, but the different liturgies contain the same substance of the faith. Thus, it doesn't matter to whether pray a Byzantine, Dominican, or Tridentine Liturgy. There is a Unity of Faith in the Diversity of liturgies.
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2006, 08:41:55 PM »

Forgot something on your list.
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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2006, 09:18:41 PM »

Forgot something on your list.
I was just listing some of the different liturgies. But I could have included the Novus Ordo (celebrated properly ad orientem as intended with sacred, and not secular music), or any of the Eastern Liturgies that I left out.
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2006, 10:37:12 AM »

I was just listing some of the different liturgies. But I could have included the Novus Ordo (celebrated properly ad orientem as intended with sacred, and not secular music)

You could have included that, if people did that.  All of which casts an interesting perspective on your other statements.
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2006, 10:57:24 AM »

"Because there were so many sui juris Churches during the first century."

Of course there were. Every house Church with its bishop was sui iuris.  Liturgy followed a general pattern but the many prayers were extemperaneous.

"...the different liturgies contain the same substance of the faith. Thus, it doesn't matter to whether pray a Byzantine, Dominican, or Tridentine Liturgy. There is a Unity of Faith in the Diversity of liturgies."

It is certainly edifying to particiapte in the Liturgies of the other Churches, but my point remains there is no such thing as a generic Catholic.  One is only Catholic by being a Latin Catholic, a Byzantine Catholic, a Maronite Catholic etc.  All are equal, but one must be a member of a particular Church to be Catholic.  And it does matter that one follows the traditions and disciplines of the particular Church he is in, because while all traditions are equal, one must allow themselves to formed by and live by a single tradition if one is to progress spiritually.

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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2006, 11:09:45 AM »

Fr. Deacon, I believe many Roman Catholics continue to simply view the Eastern Catholics as being people who practice a different liturgical rite, and not as people who are members of particular or distinct churches.  Unfortunately, I think the actions of some Eastern Catholics, at times help foster that belief.
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2006, 12:22:45 PM »

Welkodox,

True enough, that is if the realize we exist at all. And also sadly true some ECs consider themselves Byzantine Rite Roman Catholics and think and act accordingly.

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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2006, 04:05:53 PM »

It is certainly edifying to particiapte in the Liturgies of the other Churches, but my point remains there is no such thing as a generic Catholic.  One is only Catholic by being a Latin Catholic, a Byzantine Catholic, a Maronite Catholic etc.  All are equal, but one must be a member of a particular Church to be Catholic.  And it does matter that one follows the traditions and disciplines of the particular Church he is in, because while all traditions are equal, one must allow themselves to formed by and live by a single tradition if one is to progress spiritually.

Fr. Deacon Lance

You are absolutely right. They are not just rites but particular churches.
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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2006, 01:38:12 AM »

Sadly most Latin Rite parish lay people I know tend to view the Eastern Catholic Churches as a novelty or a trinket. It is something different and neat to them as opposed to something of spiritual significance.

Christ is in our midst,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2006, 05:15:39 PM »

"Because there were so many sui juris Churches during the first century."

Of course there were. Every house Church with its bishop was sui iuris.  Liturgy followed a general pattern but the many prayers were extemperaneous.

"...the different liturgies contain the same substance of the faith. Thus, it doesn't matter to whether pray a Byzantine, Dominican, or Tridentine Liturgy. There is a Unity of Faith in the Diversity of liturgies."

It is certainly edifying to particiapte in the Liturgies of the other Churches, but my point remains there is no such thing as a generic Catholic.  One is only Catholic by being a Latin Catholic, a Byzantine Catholic, a Maronite Catholic etc.  All are equal, but one must be a member of a particular Church to be Catholic.  And it does matter that one follows the traditions and disciplines of the particular Church he is in, because while all traditions are equal, one must allow themselves to formed by and live by a single tradition if one is to progress spiritually.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Fr. Deacon, I agree with you. Each Catholic must belong to a particular Church because that is the way in which ecclesiology has developed. However, there is a hierarchy of importance here. It is much more important that I am a Catholic than which particular Church I am a member of. To not see this is miss the fact that the Church is CATHOLIC in the first place. Does that mean each particular Church is not good? Of course not. However, my membership in the overall body of Christ is more important to me than the ethnic background of my particular church. We can debate all day long how each church has a "different spirituality" but in reality we all simply reflect different aspects of the one spirituality, which is to live a life in the Spirit, as guided by the teachings of Christ's One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Many Blessings in Christ,
Chris
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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2006, 05:17:31 PM »

Sadly most Latin Rite parish lay people I know tend to view the Eastern Catholic Churches as a novelty or a trinket. It is something different and neat to them as opposed to something of spiritual significance.

Christ is in our midst,
Panagiotis
And I do not fit into this category. I see each sui juri Church as intrinsically equal. However, I take a more Catholic view of the Church. It does not matter if we are Ruthenian, or Latin, or Maronite, or Melkite, for we are all members of the ONE body of Christ. There are many gifts but one Spirit.
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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2006, 11:09:43 PM »

Quote
When I was in Timisoara this summer, I was surprised at how immediate the difference was between Orthodox and Greek Catholic parishes.  I never had the chance to attend liturgy at a Catholic parish, but the presence of pews, a ton of Latin devotional items and such made them look very Catholic.  Since this was in a city with a fair amount of Latin Catholics, such blurring of ritual lines makes sense.  But, do the more isolated and rural Greek Catholic parishes do this as well?

Nektarios,
If you can read French, the link below might be of some help to you.
http://www.liturgica.scriptmania.com/fr/transylvanie-rite-byz.html
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« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2006, 01:03:46 AM »

Multumesc!  My reading ability in French is rather limited, but with some effort I can get through much of it.  After scanning it the thing that caught my attention was the difference in liturgical language between the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox - how noticable is this actually?
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« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2006, 01:29:16 AM »

For the common faithful, the most noticeable difference would be the Greek Catholic's church use of "Sfintul SPIRIT" (a late XIX-th century loan word) vs. the Orthodox "Sfintul Duh" of Slavic origin, much older and wider used.
The truth is that there were no linguistical differences between the two sister churches prior to the end of the XIX-th century. By that time however, some Greek Catholic hierarchs began purging the liturgical Romanian of as many Slavonic words as possible, replacing them with Latin borrowings or Romanian creations of their own.
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« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2006, 01:47:07 AM »

Sadly most Latin Rite parish lay people I know tend to view the Eastern Catholic Churches as a novelty or a trinket. It is something different and neat to them as opposed to something of spiritual significance.

Christ is in our midst,
Panagiotis

Fr Deacon Lance and Papist represent what Rome really teaches but...

I wish I could say what you wrote was not true but it is... if they've heard of them at all.
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« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2006, 12:32:54 PM »

Fr Deacon Lance and Papist represent what Rome really teaches but...

I wish I could say what you wrote was not true but it is... if they've heard of them at all.
I think that most Catholics feel that way about the east or have never heard about them simply because here in the west, Eastern Catholic Churches are much smaller and more rare than are latin Parishes.
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« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2006, 12:53:12 PM »

"Latin Rite" parishes ? Please someone direct me to one...

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« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2006, 12:59:26 PM »

"Latin Rite" parishes ? Please someone direct me to one...

james
Do you mean Parishes that celebrate the old Tridentine Liturgy in Latin or do you mean Parishes of the Latin (Roman) Church?
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« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2006, 01:01:57 PM »

You could have included that, if people did that.  All of which casts an interesting perspective on your other statements.
Well, I view Ortho-praxis and "style" as two entirely different things.
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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2006, 01:23:11 PM »

Papist,

I am referring to a parish using accurate english translation of the current Roman Missal...

I do sincerly apologize for the topic drift... Wink

james
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« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2006, 01:56:32 PM »

Papist,

I am referring to a parish using accurate english translation of the current Roman Missal...

I do sincerly apologize for the topic drift... Wink

james
No where in the USA. The current english translation is horrible.
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« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2006, 03:13:18 PM »

Well, I view Ortho-praxis and "style" as two entirely different things.

Yes, you've made this clear in your other posts.  I think you're making an inorrect distinction. 

So long as a guitar mass (or the infamous Halloween mass which was circulating recently) with lay females handing out communion, etc. is done under the authority of a bishop who is in communion with Rome; you would have to say that "style" of worship doesn't take away or invalidate the theological fullness you share with them.  Even if you personally don't care for their worship "style".

That is where the post Vatican II church is at.  It is not about fullness, it's about the lowest common denominator.
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« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2006, 04:50:37 PM »

Yes, you've made this clear in your other posts.  I think you're making an inorrect distinction. 

So long as a guitar mass (or the infamous Halloween mass which was circulating recently) with lay females handing out communion, etc. is done under the authority of a bishop who is in communion with Rome; you would have to say that "style" of worship doesn't take away or invalidate the theological fullness you share with them.  Even if you personally don't care for their worship "style".

That is where the post Vatican II church is at.  It is not about fullness, it's about the lowest common denominator.
I disagree. Even though a Bishop is technically the head liturgist of his diocese, he must be sure that his actions and judgements with regard to the liturgy are in conformity with the norms established and approved by the Holy See. If he allows aberrations like the "Halloween Mass" to occur, then he is not acting in conformity of OrthoPraxis.
Now, perhpas I should clarify what I mean by style. I consider the different litrugies approved by the Holy See and Apostolic Tradtions to all be valid and holy liturgies that at their roots are really just the same thing: the Holy Sacrifice or the Divine Liturgy entrusted by Christ to his Apostles. However, in different parts of the world, these liturgies have devloped in different ways creating different "styles". However, the substance remains the same. This being the case, I do not pit one liturgy against another, for all are the God-glorifying Holy Sacrifice. All the matters to me is that the Liturgies are celebrated properly, reverantly, and in conformity with the established norms.
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