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Author Topic: Would the Pope Be Infallible If He Became Orthodox?  (Read 22966 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 31, 2010, 02:19:54 PM »

Fr. Gabriel Bunge OSB, a renowned Benedictine hermit and master of Patristic thought, was received into the Russian Orthodox Church a few days ago.

Praise God!!  Another Lev Gillet.

When will the Holy Father follow suit?
Well, if he were to do so, he would no longer be a member of the Catholic Communion and, thus, would no longer be the Pope.
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« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 02:38:42 PM »

But he is infallible, isn't he?
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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 02:40:56 PM »

But he is infallible, isn't he?
That is not what the dogma Papal Infallibility teaches AT ALL.
For the Pope to teach infallibly, he must be intending to teach as the Pope, ex cathedra.

If a pope were defect from the Catholic Church, he would no longer be the Pope and would no longer be protected by the charism of the infallible magisterium.
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 02:52:28 PM »

But he is infallible, isn't he?
That is not what the dogma Papal Infallibility teaches AT ALL.
For the Pope to teach infallibly, he must be intending to teach as the Pope, ex cathedra.

If a pope were defect from the Catholic Church, he would no longer be the Pope and would no longer be protected by the charism of the infallible magisterium.

Yes, but he would be protected by the Charism of the Holy Spirit.
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 02:57:08 PM »

But he is infallible, isn't he?
That is not what the dogma Papal Infallibility teaches AT ALL.
For the Pope to teach infallibly, he must be intending to teach as the Pope, ex cathedra.

If a pope were defect from the Catholic Church, he would no longer be the Pope and would no longer be protected by the charism of the infallible magisterium.

Yes, but he would be protected by the Charism of the Holy Spirit.
Roll Eyes This is getting way off topic. Do you really want to discuss how a hypothetical Pope's hypothetical defection from the Catholic Church would affect Catholics? If so, I would be happy to do so, but start another thread please.
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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 03:58:34 PM »

Do you really want to discuss how a hypothetical Pope's hypothetical defection from the Catholic Church would affect Catholics? If so, I would be happy to do so, but start another thread please.
I actually started looking for a screen shot of Woody Allen from the movie Sleeper, where he reads a headline from the future: "Pope's wife has twins!"
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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 04:32:58 PM »

Papist,

sometimes you have to realize that it's easier to hold onto these polemical notions, than to actually understand exactly what it is that Latins believe.
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 06:02:11 PM »

Papist,

sometimes you have to realize that it's easier to hold onto these polemical notions, than to actually understand exactly what it is that Latins believe.
Agreed. I have seen that happen here time and time again.
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2010, 10:29:38 PM »

Papist,

sometimes you have to realize that it's easier to hold onto these polemical notions, than to actually understand exactly what it is that Latins believe.

In this instance the Latins do not know what they believe.  It is still a matter debated by theologians, whether a Pope who goes into heresy ceases to be Pope and can be removed from the papal office.  
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 01:13:35 PM »

Papist,

sometimes you have to realize that it's easier to hold onto these polemical notions, than to actually understand exactly what it is that Latins believe.

In this instance the Latins do not know what they believe.  It is still a matter debated by theologians, whether a Pope who goes into heresy ceases to be Pope and can be removed from the papal office.  
No, for the most part it is settled that if a Pope were to LEAVE the Church and cease to be a Catholic, he would not be the Pope.
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 03:59:59 PM »

Papist,

sometimes you have to realize that it's easier to hold onto these polemical notions, than to actually understand exactly what it is that Latins believe.

In this instance the Latins do not know what they believe.  It is still a matter debated by theologians, whether a Pope who goes into heresy ceases to be Pope and can be removed from the papal office.  

"a matter still debated" does not equate into "Latins don't know what they believe".
More polemics again.
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 04:39:38 PM »

Papist,

sometimes you have to realize that it's easier to hold onto these polemical notions, than to actually understand exactly what it is that Latins believe.

In this instance the Latins do not know what they believe.  It is still a matter debated by theologians, whether a Pope who goes into heresy ceases to be Pope and can be removed from the papal office.  

"a matter still debated" does not equate into "Latins don't know what they believe".
More polemics again.


Oh good grief!

That's been resolved many times over many centuries.

A pope who falls into FORMAL heresy removes himself from the Body of Christ and so does not remain as the Vicar of Christ.

What may come into question is the condition of formal heresy.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1535524/posts
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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 08:24:17 PM »

Papist,

sometimes you have to realize that it's easier to hold onto these polemical notions, than to actually understand exactly what it is that Latins believe.

In this instance the Latins do not know what they believe.  It is still a matter debated by theologians, whether a Pope who goes into heresy ceases to be Pope and can be removed from the papal office. 

"a matter still debated" does not equate into "Latins don't know what they believe".
More polemics again.


Oh good grief!

That's been resolved many times over many centuries.

A pope who falls into FORMAL heresy removes himself from the Body of Christ and so does not remain as the Vicar of Christ.

What may come into question is the condition of formal heresy.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1535524/posts

"A pope who falls into FORMAL heresy removes himself from the Body of Christ and so does not remain as the Vicar of Christ."

Makes no sense to me at all.  Do you mean that a Pope wakes up one  morning:  "Hey, I am now a heretic in their eyes.  I'd better pack my backpack and remove myself from the Vatican."

How does the Roman Church remove an heretical Pope?

Who is able to judge the man that no earthly power is able to judge?



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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2010, 01:49:00 AM »

Papist,

sometimes you have to realize that it's easier to hold onto these polemical notions, than to actually understand exactly what it is that Latins believe.

In this instance the Latins do not know what they believe.  It is still a matter debated by theologians, whether a Pope who goes into heresy ceases to be Pope and can be removed from the papal office. 

"a matter still debated" does not equate into "Latins don't know what they believe".
More polemics again.


Oh good grief!

That's been resolved many times over many centuries.

A pope who falls into FORMAL heresy removes himself from the Body of Christ and so does not remain as the Vicar of Christ.

What may come into question is the condition of formal heresy.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1535524/posts

"A pope who falls into FORMAL heresy removes himself from the Body of Christ and so does not remain as the Vicar of Christ."

Makes no sense to me at all.  Do you mean that a Pope wakes up one  morning:  "Hey, I am now a heretic in their eyes.  I'd better pack my backpack and remove myself from the Vatican."

How does the Roman Church remove an heretical Pope?

Who is able to judge the man that no earthly power is able to judge?


Well then why bother your head about it, if its too difficult to grasp...eh?  It's no your concern in any event and will only lead you into bitter temptation!!

M.
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:55 AM »

Fr. Gabriel Bunge OSB, a renowned Benedictine hermit and master of Patristic thought, was received into the Russian Orthodox Church a few days ago.

Praise God!!  Another Lev Gillet.

When will the Holy Father follow suit?

And would it really result in an end to the papacy if he did convert? Or would a large amount of Romanists just recognize him as a heretic and schismatic and elevate someone else to his position?
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« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:55 AM »

But he is infallible, isn't he?

Only when speaking ex cathedra. So he could convert to "Eastern Orthodoxy" without making an infallible proclamation. And even if he did follow the forms, it's entirely possible that he could be regarded as no longer being the Pope because of his conversion in the first place.
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2010, 03:34:26 AM »

So it looks like Pope is infallible unless he makes a mistake. Such a dogma can be made for anyone.
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« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2010, 04:30:43 AM »

Papist,

sometimes you have to realize that it's easier to hold onto these polemical notions, than to actually understand exactly what it is that Latins believe.

In this instance the Latins do not know what they believe.  It is still a matter debated by theologians, whether a Pope who goes into heresy ceases to be Pope and can be removed from the papal office. 

"a matter still debated" does not equate into "Latins don't know what they believe".
More polemics again.


Oh good grief!

That's been resolved many times over many centuries.

A pope who falls into FORMAL heresy removes himself from the Body of Christ and so does not remain as the Vicar of Christ.

What may come into question is the condition of formal heresy.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1535524/posts

"A pope who falls into FORMAL heresy removes himself from the Body of Christ and so does not remain as the Vicar of Christ."

Makes no sense to me at all.  Do you mean that a Pope wakes up one  morning:  "Hey, I am now a heretic in their eyes.  I'd better pack my backpack and remove myself from the Vatican."

How does the Roman Church remove an heretical Pope?

Who is able to judge the man that no earthly power is able to judge?


Well then why bother your head about it, if its too difficult to grasp...eh?  It's no your concern in any event and will only lead you into bitter temptation!!

M.

Mary, please look again at what I wrote.  I did not say that it was too difficult to grasp, I said that what you wrote yourself made no sense.

Anybody, with a simply google.com seacrh, will discover that Catholic theologians are not agreed on whether an heretical Pope can be removed.

Can. 1404 The First See is judged by no one.
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« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2010, 11:08:03 AM »

Papist,

sometimes you have to realize that it's easier to hold onto these polemical notions, than to actually understand exactly what it is that Latins believe.

In this instance the Latins do not know what they believe.  It is still a matter debated by theologians, whether a Pope who goes into heresy ceases to be Pope and can be removed from the papal office. 

"a matter still debated" does not equate into "Latins don't know what they believe".
More polemics again.


Oh good grief!

That's been resolved many times over many centuries.

A pope who falls into FORMAL heresy removes himself from the Body of Christ and so does not remain as the Vicar of Christ.

What may come into question is the condition of formal heresy.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1535524/posts

"A pope who falls into FORMAL heresy removes himself from the Body of Christ and so does not remain as the Vicar of Christ."

Makes no sense to me at all.  Do you mean that a Pope wakes up one  morning:  "Hey, I am now a heretic in their eyes.  I'd better pack my backpack and remove myself from the Vatican."

How does the Roman Church remove an heretical Pope?

Who is able to judge the man that no earthly power is able to judge?


Well then why bother your head about it, if its too difficult to grasp...eh?  It's no your concern in any event and will only lead you into bitter temptation!!

M.

Mary, please look again at what I wrote.  I did not say that it was too difficult to grasp, I said that what you wrote yourself made no sense.

Anybody, with a simply google.com seacrh, will discover that Catholic theologians are not agreed on whether an heretical Pope can be removed.

Can. 1404 The First See is judged by no one.

 laugh  Catholic theologians are also not agreed on whether or not a woman can be ordained.

Good thing Catholic theologians don't write the canons.

M.
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« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2010, 11:18:34 AM »

So it looks like Pope is infallible unless he makes a mistake. Such a dogma can be made for anyone.

Yeah, this is how the dogma was explained to me at the ByzCath forum. And I'm a vegetarian between meals.
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« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2010, 11:32:42 AM »


Can. 1404 The First See is judged by no one.

Good thing Catholic theologians don't write the canons.

M.

The canon as I have quoted is "Prima Sedes a nemine judicatur"

Will you quote canons which contradict that?  Or is it as canon denied by Ruthenian Catholic theologians?
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« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2010, 11:47:20 AM »

But he is infallible, isn't he?
That is not what the dogma Papal Infallibility teaches AT ALL.
For the Pope to teach infallibly, he must be intending to teach as the Pope, ex cathedra.

If a pope were defect from the Catholic Church, he would no longer be the Pope and would no longer be protected by the charism of the infallible magisterium.

Catholics never seem clear about when their Pope is speaking ex catheda. When a past Pope has taught something they are uncomfortable with , it's not him speaking ex catheda. If the present Pope pronounces something they won't like, then it wont be ex cathedra... Very confusing.

If the current Pope vests and goes out on the balcony and reads from a signed statement that he is rejoining his fellow Bishops from the Orthodox Church, it would be pretty darn official from where i sit. No?
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2010, 12:59:52 PM »

So it looks like Pope is infallible unless he makes a mistake. Such a dogma can be made for anyone.
The doctrine of infallibility never states that the Pope is infallible in his actions.
It only says that when he is teaching ex cathedra, that he is protected from error. However, if here were to leave the Catholic Church it would be impossible for him to teach ex cathedra, because he would no longer be on the metaphorical Chair of Peter. Only a Catholic can be the Pope. Not a non-Catholic. I have no idea why this is difficult for you to see. Perhaps you are to wrapped up in polemics to try and understand what we Catholics actually believe?
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2010, 02:51:17 PM »

So it looks like Pope is infallible unless he makes a mistake. Such a dogma can be made for anyone.
The doctrine of infallibility never states that the Pope is infallible in his actions.
It only says that when he is teaching ex cathedra, that he is protected from error. However, if here were to leave the Catholic Church it would be impossible for him to teach ex cathedra, because he would no longer be on the metaphorical Chair of Peter. Only a Catholic can be the Pope. Not a non-Catholic. I have no idea why this is difficult for you to see. Perhaps you are to wrapped up in polemics to try and understand what we Catholics actually believe?

It's just that it is nearly impossible to tell when he is speaking ex cathedra. It appears to me that he is when convenient and not when inconvenient.
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« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2010, 04:55:41 PM »

So it looks like Pope is infallible unless he makes a mistake. Such a dogma can be made for anyone.
The doctrine of infallibility never states that the Pope is infallible in his actions.
It only says that when he is teaching ex cathedra, that he is protected from error. However, if here were to leave the Catholic Church it would be impossible for him to teach ex cathedra, because he would no longer be on the metaphorical Chair of Peter. Only a Catholic can be the Pope. Not a non-Catholic. I have no idea why this is difficult for you to see. Perhaps you are to wrapped up in polemics to try and understand what we Catholics actually believe?

We already know that an Orthodox Bishop can be Pope. I hope you dont air brush them out of the pictures like Stalin did to Trotsky.
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« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2010, 05:38:33 PM »

I think its pretty easy to tell. When the Pope says something along the lines of "I solemnly declare, define, etc..." or "All Catholic must believe..." He is speaking ex cathedra.

The argument you are providing sounds alot like when we Catholics accuse EOs about not being clear on dogma.
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« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2010, 06:19:23 PM »

So it looks like Pope is infallible unless he makes a mistake. Such a dogma can be made for anyone.
The doctrine of infallibility never states that the Pope is infallible in his actions.
It only says that when he is teaching ex cathedra, that he is protected from error. However, if here were to leave the Catholic Church it would be impossible for him to teach ex cathedra, because he would no longer be on the metaphorical Chair of Peter. Only a Catholic can be the Pope. Not a non-Catholic. I have no idea why this is difficult for you to see. Perhaps you are to wrapped up in polemics to try and understand what we Catholics actually believe?

Is it no longer taught that the Pope is infallible in his office and in his person?
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2010, 06:24:48 PM »

I think its pretty easy to tell. When the Pope says something along the lines of "I solemnly declare, define, etc..." or "All Catholic must believe..." He is speaking ex cathedra.

Precisely why Unam Sanctam and Cantate Domino are infallible although modern Catholics react with horror to the doctrine in them.

Quote
The argument you are providing sounds alot like when we Catholics accuse EOs about not being clear on dogma.

Unam Sanctam and Cantate Domino fulfil the criteria for infallible papal teaching but Catholics wish to fudge it.
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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2010, 09:26:21 PM »

I have no problem with these documents except that they may not be worded in the most prudent way. There is nothing in Catholic dogma that states that the best words possible will always be used when the Church defines doctrine. Also, there is nothing in Catholic dogma that says we should ignore the historical context of dogma when it is defined.
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« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2010, 02:37:11 AM »

Sincerely, if the Bishop of Rome were to speak ex-cathedra that the "Orthodox church is the true Church", and confess the Creed sans the Filioque; what then could be said?  It is an interesting scenario no matter which way you lean, is it not?
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« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2010, 03:02:19 AM »

There is nothing in Catholic dogma that states that the best words possible will always be used when the Church defines doctrine.
That's an awfully large loop-hole. (Not that I'm complainin'.)
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« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2010, 03:22:42 AM »


There is nothing in Catholic dogma that states that the best words possible will always be used when the Church defines doctrine.

Phew!  That's a major worry, when the Popes are not very competent with the Latin language!!

And especially because Mary tells us that the only way for the Popes to express Catholic teaching with any exactitude is in the Latin Language!   Sad
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« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2010, 03:23:04 AM »

So it looks like Pope is infallible unless he makes a mistake. Such a dogma can be made for anyone.

The Pope supposedly (according to Romanist teaching) cannot make a mistake, at least not doctrinally, ex cathedra. In the instances where it is understood that he could make a mistake, it's hard to imagine how this could occur ex cathedra. If he converted to "Eastern Orthodoxy", it would technically be impossible for him to speak ex cathedra anymore, as he would no longer be the Pope.
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« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2010, 03:23:04 AM »

Can. 1404 The First See is judged by no one.

Is it possible that, in the context of the nature of the Vatican, there is something more to what constitutes "The First See" than merely the Bishop of Rome himself? And thus that the Vatican itself could somehow judge the Bishop of Rome?
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« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2010, 03:23:04 AM »

Catholics never seem clear about when their Pope is speaking ex catheda. When a past Pope has taught something they are uncomfortable with , it's not him speaking ex catheda. If the present Pope pronounces something they won't like, then it wont be ex cathedra... Very confusing.

If the current Pope vests and goes out on the balcony and reads from a signed statement that he is rejoining his fellow Bishops from the Orthodox Church, it would be pretty darn official from where i sit. No?

Nonetheless he would have become a schismatic by the very decision to do so before making the proclamation and thus he would not be the Pope when making the proclamation.
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« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2010, 03:23:04 AM »

So it looks like Pope is infallible unless he makes a mistake. Such a dogma can be made for anyone.
The doctrine of infallibility never states that the Pope is infallible in his actions.
It only says that when he is teaching ex cathedra, that he is protected from error. However, if here were to leave the Catholic Church it would be impossible for him to teach ex cathedra, because he would no longer be on the metaphorical Chair of Peter. Only a Catholic can be the Pope. Not a non-Catholic. I have no idea why this is difficult for you to see. Perhaps you are to wrapped up in polemics to try and understand what we Catholics actually believe?

Not necessarily. To be honest, even though it seems I understand what you are trying to say, it has been very difficult trying to understand all the nuances of the doctrine of papal infallibility. Most people don't understand it because, in my opinion, it is such a convoluted doctrine.
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« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2010, 03:37:06 AM »

I think its pretty easy to tell. When the Pope says something along the lines of "I solemnly declare, define, etc..." or "All Catholic must believe..." He is speaking ex cathedra.

Precisely why Unam Sanctam and Cantate Domino are infallible although modern Catholics react with horror to the doctrine in them.

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The argument you are providing sounds alot like when we Catholics accuse EOs about not being clear on dogma.

Unam Sanctam and Cantate Domino fulfil the criteria for infallible papal teaching but Catholics wish to fudge it.

When the Church says that they do not fully express the mind of the Church then they do not and are not infallible documents.   Again I ask you:  Who are you?

You goal with this kind of post is not to shed light but to shed heat and discord.

Your rages, the ones you claim to have, seem to me to hide the fact that you are terrified that there will be union in your lifetime and rather than ever be angry with you, I simply pray that you get to see it before you close your eyes on this side of the Great Divide.

It gives me great joy, morning and evening to pray for you so that you may live long enough to see the resumption of communion between Catholics and Orthodox.

Mary
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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2010, 03:37:06 AM »

I have no problem with these documents except that they may not be worded in the most prudent way. There is nothing in Catholic dogma that states that the best words possible will always be used when the Church defines doctrine. Also, there is nothing in Catholic dogma that says we should ignore the historical context of dogma when it is defined.

Don't even bother addressing these kinds of things with Father Ambrose.  It is a great waste of time and the fact that he pumps up the same old songs on his Irish Piano should tell you that it is a distraction from real substance in these discussions.  Wherever he sees even the whisper of a chance that some light may be shed, some better understanding emerge, he commences to begin to derail it all.

So with me, simply pray that he sees the day when Orthodoxy resumes communion with the Catholic Church and with her teachings, whole and integral as they are today.

Not changes in doctrine, no long years of penance...bah!!...

M.
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« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2010, 04:17:21 AM »

Catholics never seem clear about when their Pope is speaking ex catheda. When a past Pope has taught something they are uncomfortable with , it's not him speaking ex catheda. If the present Pope pronounces something they won't like, then it wont be ex cathedra... Very confusing.

If the current Pope vests and goes out on the balcony and reads from a signed statement that he is rejoining his fellow Bishops from the Orthodox Church, it would be pretty darn official from where i sit. No?

Nonetheless he would have become a schismatic by the very decision to do so before making the proclamation and thus he would not be the Pope when making the proclamation.

The teaching is that an heretical Pope cannot be deposed and he remains Pope BUT the Holy Spirit will protect him from making any formal heretical proclamations.

Therefore by definition, if the Pope were to declare Orthodoxy to be the true Church it can only be by the allowance of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2010, 04:21:56 AM »


....simply pray that he sees the day when Orthodoxy resumes communion with the Catholic Church and with her teachings, whole and integral as they are today.


God forbid.  Mary, can you really expect the Church to unite with Rome and accept all of Rome's erroneous teachings?    Are you serious? 
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« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2010, 04:32:09 AM »


Not changes in doctrine, no long years of penance...bah!!...

  Ah, the pride of the Romans!  Smiley

But Rome has been ill and ailing for the last 1000 years, distorting doctrines, unleashing persecution on the Orthodox Church and our faithful, trying to destroy us and divide us with imitations of Orthodox Churches.  And now you want us to offer obeisance!   God forbid!   Rome will need many long years and even centuries of slow restoration to spiritual and doctrinal health - and even then it is doubtful if it will regain the place it held in the first millennium.  Sic transit gloria papatiae!  Tempora mutantur, ecclesiae et mutantur in illis.
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« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2010, 04:48:39 AM »


Your rages, the ones you claim to have...


The rages I claim to have??

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seem to me to hide the fact that you are terrified that there will be union in your lifetime

I have no terror of this.  It simply will not be happening.  There are very few, if any, sound indicators that the Church of Rome is preparing to jettison its erroneous teachings and extravagant claims and assume a theology and ecclesiology which is fully conformed to that of the Church.

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« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2010, 05:51:47 AM »


seem to me to hide the fact that you are terrified that there will be union in your lifetime
 

I think you have unrealistic hopes for union and perhaps the terror is more on your side where you fear that it will not come about in the quick timeframe you wish.

I think that last Friday's reception of Fr Gabriel (Bunge) into Orthodoxy shows that he, like me, sees little hope of union within our lifetime.  If he did he would have remained with the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2010, 06:28:05 AM »

Resist the urge...  Resist the urge...  Don't want to have to separate you two again. police
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« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2010, 09:06:34 AM »


Your rages, the ones you claim to have...


The rages I claim to have??

Quote
seem to me to hide the fact that you are terrified that there will be union in your lifetime

I have no terror of this.  It simply will not be happening.  There are very few, if any, sound indicators that the Church of Rome is preparing to jettison its erroneous teachings and extravagant claims and assume a theology and ecclesiology which is fully conformed to that of the Church.


More likely the EP will apostatize than the Pope repent.  The Scriptures speak of a great apostasy, not a great revival.  As sad as it is, I don't see any Scriptural prophecy of one billion Latins repenting and rejoining the Church.  If it were to occur, it would be the greatest historical event since the Resurrection of our Lord!
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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